Terms - for better or worse - definitions?

Let the ball get to you - hit it where its pitched. These are two things we constantly say and preach. I use the term trust your hands to let the hitter know that he can wait and let it get to him and not chase the ball.

Coach May, thanks for the reply. I thought that I asked for too high of standards and so no one was going to respond. Coach, have you ever done the drill where you take tape and run it from the tip of the plate to half of the plate on the opposite side? (Just where the angle starts back to the point.) Then, set up 3 cones one "pull", one "up the middle" and one, "away." We even put balls on top of our cones for fun. We put our "pitching station" in a straight line about 45 degrees off to the side of straight away. I hope I'm not confusing you. Now, we toss the ball with some speed on it. The batter has to hit inside to outside on consecutive pitches. They will have a lot of trouble hitting that outside cone. This reinforces "let the ball get to you." I hope I explained this well enough. I love this drill for what we want to accomplish in BP.

I use a similar drill with my batters, I sit behind a short L-Screen and pitch inside, Outside and down the middle. I have not used cones in this drill however. What a great idea for a visual aid for young players to see where they should be hitting the ball.

Like you I setup at an angle and I am only 20' or so away, I can spot the ball where I want better and the L-Screen keeps my pretty face in order. I will introduce the cones at the next batting practice.

I think people try to stop batters from lunging all sorts of ways when the fix can be
" let the ball come to you". If you get that front foot down and let the ball come to you...the lunge is gone

I guess I posted a poor topic. It seems that no one wants to share the terms and explanations of what they do. VERY DISAPPOINTING.

one that I don't like is "stay back". To me, it conveys the wrong message of having the weight predominantly on the back foot, where the front foot barely has the toe on the ground.
I'd prefer something more mundane like "stay balanced".

the coach of our biggest rival CONSTANTLY tells his hitter (from the 3rd base box so everyone hears him) "see the ball, hit the ball". I'm not sure what he's trying to tell them. Maybe just trying to keep it simple, but I'm like "duh, no kidding"...

"Knob to the ball" - I don't teach it, I never even mention the knob of the bat, at all, never........

"Arm extension" - I teach not to extend the arms.......Absolutely, no arm extension.....

"Weak top hand" - I do like the top hand loose on the bat ......I want the hands pulling against each other...

"Let ball get to you" - I do teach this.........Let all pitches get at least inside the front foot........

"Finish high" - I don't teach this.......I teach hitters to hook, and they will finish with the hands pretty low.......But, I don't teach where they should finish, it just happens.......

Agree with most all of it except I like to see the hands extend after reaching the ideal contact point as this tends to keep the bat in the zone a bit longer if the hitter is a bit ahead of the pitch.

I like stay balanced.
I like having the ear hole of the batter over the back knee as they begin to extend.

I do teach get the knob of the bat through and get to the zone quick. Inside pitches I teach drive the knob of the bat right at the third-baseman.

I teach extension like CADad said, swing from inside out, hands start close to the shoulder then accelerate through the ball and the zone out to the pitcher. As you can see from the pic the back elbow is in close as you say CoachB25, from here I want his hands accelerating and driving forward and let the bat head fly out from the center of the rotation till his arms are fully extended and the bat has to arc back around due to centripetal force. That is what extension means to me anyway.

As far as weak top hand, I have not heard or used this term I teach keeping the hands flat through the zone, bottom hand palm down, top hand palm up as far out as your arms will go toward the pitcher.

I don't worry about finish high or low as long as the batter has a natural flow, I think finishing high tends to develop a loop in the batters swing, no ball player I know play in the lights why swing for them.

I do stress letting the ball get deep, AKA let the ball get to you. I teach the batter to be loaded when the pitcher gets to his release point then accelerate through the ball.

The pic is of my 14 yo, I am waiting for the day his swing looks like this every time he turns the bat loose on a ball.

Now that I have expressed the definitions I like I would like to hear more from the rest, I have figured out there is a lot I can learn still.

As long as everyone understands great hitters don't hit with extension at ball contact......To fully clarify, they don't extend their arms to the ball.....

HC DAD

good image. I will add lead elbow above the pitch plane as shown. Also when the batter starts the stride the head must stay over the belt buckle until the heel drops...then the ear and knee line up during rotation and a slight tilt.

What about "focus on the top of the baseball"? I heard a coach telling his hitters this at the 1998 NABF World Series. They were hitting bullets...no pop ups or weak fly balls. He was a college coach, and was coaching some tremendous players. What do you think the larger message is that he is conveying to his players?

What...do you want ground balls?????

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I teach extension like CADad said

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You put up a picture of a nice swing at a high pitch. This hitter would not get to extension if he hit the ball properly. Yet, you teach extension.

Which is it?

Swing from inside out, hands start close to the shoulder then accelerate through the ball and the zone out to the pitcher. As you can see from the pic the back elbow is in close as you say CoachB25, from here I want his hands accelerating and driving forward and let the bat head fly out from the center of the rotation till his arms are fully extended and the bat has to arc back around due to centripetal force. That is what extension means to me anyway.

Guess we use differnt dictionaries, differnt words meen differnt things to folks. If you want to see the finish of this swing I can post it?

You are killing your kids.

The hands stuff won't cut it when they get older.

Why would you want the hands to do this? As soon as they do they are on their own.

They are no longer connected to the power supply.

Ok time for you to explain.

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...from here I want his hands accelerating and driving forward and let the bat head fly out from the center of the rotation till his arms are fully extended and the bat has to arc back around due to centripetal force.

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The handpath of any mlb swing is circular. It is circular because they don't work on their own. They don't "go to the ball" or "drive forward". They are "connected" to the rotation of the body. In fact, the first movement of the hands is perpendicular to the flight of the ball.

See Rose below. Notice how his hands turn with the rotation of the body......not independently. They are connected. The "box" formed by the shoulders, arms, and hands stays intact through contact.

Rose

OK, look at this clip and tell me his arms aren't extended.

Clip

Granted, it's after contact, but I think that is the point, that it is ok after contact. And in fact, may be beneficial in many ways.

I agree 100% with rotation and staying connected. But I also believe that the term "extension" is not an evil one. JMO.

Not only is it after contact, it's a HR derby swing.

Your greatest bat speed is at extension. He has all the time in the world against BP pitching in a HR Derby contest.

Bat speed at extension is just not useful in a game. Takes to long to achieve. You don't have that much time against 90+mph. You trade off batspeed for bat quickness in a game.

The term is evil when you hear coaches and parents constantly yelling "get those arms extended".

There is a rotation center between the hands. This means that the top hand is pulling back and the bottom hand forward as the energy is transfered in a pure sense.
In an absolutely perfect swing ( rotational) the hands are releasing their energy as the hip/shoulder rotation centers transfer to this center between the hands. See Rose clip overhead.

When the arms extend, the rear elbow extends and this rotation center between the hands stops working as it is all moving forward as a unit. Maintaining the flat hand position and the arm relative to torso position until all the angular acceleration of the bat tip is exhausted is max power.

When the body sets up to a predicted ball location( as it always does)the batter might have to break down this hand position to simply make contact if he predicted wrong. But , I would not teach that as a goal to extend away from the core rotation. That is against the" let the ball come into you wheel house" cue

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Originally posted by Teacherman:
The handpath of any mlb swing is circular

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Please show me a hitter who does not have a circular hand path - be it youth or pro. All hands have to travel around the body. The handpath would always look circular from the overhead view.

By the way, Rose preached taking the knob to the ball. This produced a "circular hand path".

Wow, seems overnight, a lot of posters decided to join in. THANKS! I can take the criticism for what I coach but I do appreciate hearing what others say. Please MORE!

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Originally posted by redbird5:

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Originally posted by Teacherman:
The handpath of any mlb swing is circular

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Please show me a hitter who does not have a circular hand path - be it youth or pro. All hands have to travel around the body. The handpath would always look circular from the overhead view.

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Very true. And the untrained eye would say they are all the same regardless if your hands extend to the ball or not.

One is effective, the other not. One brings the barrel on time, the other not.

The all time hits leader clearly does not extend the hands to the ball. I suggest you follow the lead of the best.

Teach,

Please show me where I said the hands extend to the ball.

Also, you ignored my part about Rose proclaiming that he took his knob to the ball. Why is that cue good enough for the all time hits leader but not good enough for anyone else?

Back to the topic.

Here's a saying I use and it has great results and will surely stir up criticism.

"Golf it"

Of course you need to know its meaning to us.

Well, if you stop video of a mlb player at contact on a thigh high pitch, you'll see the barrel pointed down to the ground as an extension of his lead arm. Lead arm and bat are in plane.

Well, imagine the bat extended to the ground. I don't golf so I'm sure this isn't completely accurate, but it would look similar to a golfer addressing the ball on a T.

I've used this cue very effectively with several players who just couldn't get the swing plane right. Most kids have "level" engrained in their heads so badly that no matter what you say they can't get it right. They would not let themselves swing up to the ball.

So, I went "out of bounds" with them with this cue. Watched them hit the sh*t out of the ball, videoed them and then showed them they didn't look nearly as bad as they thought they did.

Their mental image was that they were swinging with so much of an upper cut that they would surely fail. The real image was perfect.

This out of bounds cue got them in bounds with their swing. Their previous body movement memory would not let them cross the bounds until the cue allowed them to.

Understand the swing plane, make it consistent and you can hit at your level (whatever that may be). Without a consistent understanding of the swing plane, you'll never hit at any level.

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Originally posted by redbird5:
...Also, you ignored my part about Rose proclaiming that he took his knob to the ball. Why is that cue good enough for the all time hits leader but not good enough for anyone else?

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I can see where Rose thought he took his knob to the ball.

His hands flattened, the rotation turned his body, he remained connected, and the knob led his swing.

Nothing wrong with that.

But, knob to the ball, in most hitting circles is used with extension type mechanics.

Rose did not develop a circular hand path by taking the knob to the ball. His circular hand path allowed him to rotate the knob to the ball.

Rose rotated the knob to the ball.

Amateurs extend the knob to the ball.

Then I will stick with the follow through extension, not extend to the ball but through it as shown in Ted Williams swing.
Ted Williams Batting
I thought there was a misunderstanding somewhere. I don't teach extend to the ball, I teach extension is the follow through of a good swing.
Ted Williams:
Career Totals AB:7706 H:2654 2B:525 3B:71 HR:521 OBP:.481 SLG:.634 AVG:.344
Pete Rose:
Career Totals AB:14053 H:4256 2B:746 3B:135 HR:160 OBP:.375 SLG:.409 AVG:.303

Following the lead of the best, Mr Williams, power and average.

In watching the Rose clip, he does take his knob to the ball. That is what I see. That is his way of getting his barrel where it needs to be. He didn't say "OK, at heel drop, my hips need to be approximately 37 degrees open and, initially, my bat needs to travel perpindicular to the opposite batter's box..."

There are some people who can teach the cues correctly and some who cannot. When I hear "knob to the ball", Rose's swing is exactly what I see in my head. Do I use the term? Only if I cannot get a hitter's barrel into the zone properly.

When we start up practice, I will be sure to post all of my 11U hitters.

Again, please show me a hitter - tee ball or pro, who extends his hands to the ball. Then we can talk about that. If you cannot find one, it shows that the cues are working. Until then, even if the cues are "mismanaged", they still get the same results.

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Originally posted by HotCornerDad:
Then I will stick with the follow through extension, not extend to the ball but through it as shown in Ted Williams swing.

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I agree. Extension does not occur until after contact. It IS important, IMO.

The only time I see major league hitters extending to the ball is when they get fooled by the pitch, I have couple of shots of this, Derek Jeeter, and Bernie Williams. In the photos it is clear they were out in front of a change up and had no choice but to extend in order to make contact. Extension before contact produces no power and you are not able to stay behind the ball. There's another term to discuss. I think of it as a rifle the longer the barrel the longer the pressure stays behind the bullet the greater the power. Everyone knows a kid that stops his hands just after contact, and the first thing out of our mouth is finish the swing.

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...Again, please show me a hitter - tee ball or pro, who extends his hands to the ball. Then we can talk about that. If you cannot find one, it shows that the cues are working....

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One of the most ridiculous statements made on this site. Players extending their hands to the ball is a prominent flaw. A very high percentage of high school players do it.



This swing is arm only. A typical swing of players who extend to the ball.

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Originally posted by Teacherman:
...One of the most ridiculous statements made on this site. Players extending their hands to the ball is a prominent flaw. A very high percentage of high school players do it...This swing is arm only. A typical swing of players who extend to the ball.

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His back arm remains flexed at contact. He uses only his upper half but that is not due to any extension.

Please redbird. Learn to analyze what's going on.

The extension of the arms is happening. Does he get completely extended? no. Is the swing a hands to the ball swing? yes. He is totally disconnected from his rotation. Watch the shoulders stop at or near contact. Then the arms take over by extending.

This is your typical hands hitter. All he trys to do is move his hands to the ball. He does not rotate them to the ball like Rose does.

Of course, like a famous guru always says.......you can only see what you can see.

I see whats going on. He is just trying to make contact rather than drive the ball. I see him blocking off his lower half. His lower half doesn't even enter into the swing.

Perhaps it is the teacher's fault?

He is out in front he is being forced to extend early in order to make contact. Can he get a hit this way yes maybe, ground ball with eyes, is it the best position to hit from, no.
If he let the ball get deeper this lefty would more than likely have driven the ball to Left/ Left Center, if he doesn't block his lower half out, with some power behind the ball. As I see this and judge contact point with follow through expect a ground ball to the 2nd baseman.

Rose was a punch hitter most of the time and that clip very clearly shows a punch hitter's swing. It is not a powerful swing at all. Very effective for Rose given his physical abilities and a good swing for a lot of players but not one to be taught to a player with size and strength.

Cause and effect.

Learn the difference and you've got something.

This is this hitters swing. He swings this way whether late, early, or on time. And, the only ball he can hit hard is when he's early because of the time it takes to extend.

The power supply (rotation) has been cut off. His shoulders stop turning at or near contact SO the hands can go to the ball.

Because he doesn't know how to start the swing with rotation he doesn't know how to let the ball get deep. Because he extends on every swing, no balls get deep.

Cause and effect.

In order to maximize transfer of momentum the rotation of the larger body parts has to stop or slow considerably. As the hips stop rotating the momentum is transferred to the torso and the shoulders. As the shoulders slow and almost stop the momentum is transferred to the hands allowing the bat to pivot around the hands to achieve maximum bat speed. Once the bat has "squared up" the hands extend through the zone. Once the hands begin extending through the zone (this is a relative term as the hands are still going around the body to some degree) the bat head speed slows but it's speed square to the ball is maintained at it's highest possible velocity and the bat remains in the zone rather than pulling off. Ideally, contact is made before any extension occurs but in the real world it is often made during extension, and the extension is the difference between striking the ball solidly and slicing the ball off the end of the bat.

Not extending the hands will result in the highest possible bat head speed but in many cases that speed will be in the wrong direction and won't result in a well hit ball.