Do you see a shoulder difference in this guys swing?
How about this guys shoulders?
Terms & definitions? If we teach all of this, what are better phrases to use? What definitions do you give to these terms/phrases? Granted, the video by Teacherman is appreciated. However, I hope our goal is not to disprove but rather to improve.
Again, thanks for the sudden take off of this topic.
Again, thanks for the sudden take off of this topic.
quote:
Originally posted by Teacherman:
Cause and effect...Learn the difference and you've got something...
Because he doesn't know how to start the swing with rotation he doesn't know how to let the ball get deep. Because he extends on every swing, no balls get deep.
Cause and effect.
Pot...kettle?
Faulty initial cause...allowing the ball to get deep has nothing to do with knowing a rotational swing. Allowing the ball to get deep has everything to do with wanting to drive the ball up the middle, proper timing and trusting your swing. I knew nothing about a rotational swing when I played but I drove the ball oppo quite frequently.
To me, he looks like a hitter who was always taught to pull everything, lacks plate coverage and would be succeptible to anything away and/or soft. Lots of yanked balls to the 2B. I hope he runs well.
You focus on his shoulders and I see more inaction from his hips. What makes you right and me wrong?
In the Pujols and Bonds clips I see 2 hitters who are trying to pound the ball. Your hitter looks defensive.
Mechanically, they both use their lower halves infinitely better than your hitter. Also, their weight does not get past the center of their bodies.
Mechanically, they both use their lower halves infinitely better than your hitter. Also, their weight does not get past the center of their bodies.
quote:
...
Faulty initial cause...allowing the ball to get deep has nothing to do with knowing a rotational swing....
This statement in unbelievable.
Callaway, take him off the list of good hitting coaches.
I rest my case.
There is no reason to post more video when the other party can not see.......or is too embarassed to acknowledge what he sees.
CoachB25, you gotta love it......A good old-fashioned converstaion on hitting...... 
On thread titled "TERMS--for better or worse--definitions"
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
CoachB25, you gotta love it......A good old-fashioned converstaion on hitting......
BlueDog, I do love it. I've been soooo busy I haven't had a chance to go read it all yet.
Hey everyone, just wanted to throw this in and if it has been mentioned, I apologize. I'm not a squash the bug although, when we have a kid "blocking the back side, we do use this phrase to tell/show him how he is blocking. Instead of "squish the bug, we prefer, "drag your toe. We do dry swings and make statements like, "hit the ball to the moon." This is to try to get the idea of a slight (slight) uppercut and then we say, "drag the toe" on the finish of that swing. Now, we ARE overexaggerating but when you teach kids sometimes you need funny sayings or overexaggerations to get them to certain points in the swing.
I always think that if we can get a kid to "wait till the ball gets to him, realize rotational forces and then "finish" then we have made great strides in developing a hitter. BTW, just to brag on my kids some, we are giving "team lessons" to our feeder program. I was inspired by a conversation with SwingBuster to try one more time to get this program involved with the high school. They just won a 34 team tournament this past weekend. I don't know the specifics but I believe it was a "cage tournament." I do know that they demolished the field.
HC Dad
I agree. No more of that.
Nonsense is nonsense no matter who says it.
I agree. No more of that.
Nonsense is nonsense no matter who says it.
HotCornerDad, Charlie Lau certainly knows more than me and we used some of his "stuff" when we start to work with our hitters. In other words, I believe that in order to get somewhere, you first have to know where to start. We have a "base" that our hitters can get back to when we need to make "fixes." However, we have corrupted his stuff so much that even he might not recognize it. For instance we say "Athletic" for the feet instead of 60-40. We typically are either 50-50 or 55-45 with the higher percent on the back foot. I have both the Winning Hitter and The Art of Hitting .300 and have read both extensively. I disagree with the example Charlie's son gives in the video. He shows the back arm coming away from the body and I haven't hardly ever seen this in a swing unless the hitter is chasing a breaking pitch. Also, did you note the images that show just after he is done with his speech? They show a rotional swing with the back elbow close to the body. Thanks for posting the video. It adds much to the conversation.
I went and read comments on Knob to the ball. I know that a lot of people don't like to teach the hands. I've been of an opinion that the hands are the most dangerous thing to coach and yet, if you don't coach them, you're asking for trouble. I believe in Knob to the ball as an image for about 4 inches of the swing. After that, you promote bat lag. One more thing, in the video of Bonds posted, this is one of the few shots I've seen where it appears that he doesn't rotate to the top of his toe. Of course, my eyes could just be bad.
I went and read comments on Knob to the ball. I know that a lot of people don't like to teach the hands. I've been of an opinion that the hands are the most dangerous thing to coach and yet, if you don't coach them, you're asking for trouble. I believe in Knob to the ball as an image for about 4 inches of the swing. After that, you promote bat lag. One more thing, in the video of Bonds posted, this is one of the few shots I've seen where it appears that he doesn't rotate to the top of his toe. Of course, my eyes could just be bad.
Teddy Ballgame railed about Lau and the weight shift till he died. Gwynn always said he trusted his hands, this can go add infinitum add nausea. Balance, quick to the zone and long through it on the follow through, I believe if these can be translated to a batter, even if you say milk and cookies and it produces results then that is what the batter understood. lol
And that is why we are having this discussion. I've read both Lau's stuff and Williams. Great stuff. I've added or detracted as we need for our kids. Gwynn, well, I have only read the forward in his book. I often think that hitters, regardless of how they hit or who taught them, get to certain points in a swing the same. Sounds kinda of crazy but that is what happens. For instance, I'd never tell my kids to dip the knob of the bat to their belly buttons as Bonds often does. I'd never tell them to **** as much as Sheffield. However, both hitters hit certain points in the swing almost exactly alike. You know there are other factors as well that have gone unmentioned on this site. Sometimes, you just don't get many athletes in a program. Then, you have to pick and choose those elements of the swing that you think can be effectively taught. Of course, one could argue that a swing is a swing. Sounds good but... I've been blessed, in the past, to get kids that can do what we ask. I don't know how long that will continue to happen.
There are many inconsistencies with what Lau teaches and what really happens in the swing of MLB hitters.....Look at your video and hold him accountable....... 
quote:
Originally posted by Teacherman:
This statement in unbelievable.
Callaway, take him off the list of good hitting coaches.
I rest my case.
There is no reason to post more video when the other party can not see.......or is too embarassed to acknowledge what he sees.
a) not embarassed at all. I'll post my 11U hitters for your review.
b) According to you....a hitter must know how to launch a rotational swing in order to allow the ball to get deep in the hitting zone. Is that correct?
No other cr@pola about tossing out veiled insults. Discuss the topic at hand and address the issues.
Some people just seem to always be in a bad mood.........Must be the water....
[QUOTE]b) According to you....a hitter must know how to launch a rotational swing in order to allow the ball to get deep in the hitting zone. Is that correct?QUOTE]
Only if he wants to hit it with authority.
You seem to suggest earlier that a rotational hitter can't go oppo?
Only if he wants to hit it with authority.
You seem to suggest earlier that a rotational hitter can't go oppo?
BlueDog, anything to add?
We were doing so good. Terms and definitions. Let us know the phrases we can all use to more effectively teach our kids. I'm in a learning mood. (Which means I'm not cranky today.)
We were doing so good. Terms and definitions. Let us know the phrases we can all use to more effectively teach our kids. I'm in a learning mood. (Which means I'm not cranky today.)
Nosir, Coach.....I don't wanna accidentally offend Mr. Redbird and get jumped on........My feelings get hurt easily..... 
And, I dang sure ain't gonna say nothing about a circular hand path.....Nosir, not me......
And, I dang sure ain't gonna say nothing about a circular hand path.....Nosir, not me......
Every swing has a circular path.
And you can let the ball get deep and hit it with linear hands.
Especially if you want to advance a runner on a ground ball to the right side.
And you can let the ball get deep and hit it with linear hands.
Especially if you want to advance a runner on a ground ball to the right side.
I have some clips showing stick figures of Griffey where they've done a kinetic path and they follow several different points on his body. One point they follow is the hands. Although the hands describe a generally circular path, they have a somewhat elliptical path up until the point where the bat head squares up and then they take a decidedly linear path while extending, then they finish circular.
The shoulders turn rapidly to create the intitial circular hand path with some hand movement making it a bit elliptical. The shoulders pause very, very briefly as the bat head comes around and they begin to turn again while the hands extend and then they take over to finish up the circular part of the hand path.
The paths are very clearly defined. There is no room for interpretation on the paths. There is very clearly a linear extension of the hands after the bat head squares up.
There may be some room for interpretation on the shoulders pausing, but applying conservation of momentum shows that the shoulders must slow temporarily to provide maximum momentum transfer to the bat head.
The shoulders turn rapidly to create the intitial circular hand path with some hand movement making it a bit elliptical. The shoulders pause very, very briefly as the bat head comes around and they begin to turn again while the hands extend and then they take over to finish up the circular part of the hand path.
The paths are very clearly defined. There is no room for interpretation on the paths. There is very clearly a linear extension of the hands after the bat head squares up.
There may be some room for interpretation on the shoulders pausing, but applying conservation of momentum shows that the shoulders must slow temporarily to provide maximum momentum transfer to the bat head.
"There is no room for interpretation on the paths"
Now, that's funny.........And, I haven't even seen the clips.......
"There may be some room for interpretation on the shoulders pausing........"
There may be?........Some room?........Even funnier......
Now, that's funny.........And, I haven't even seen the clips.......
"There may be some room for interpretation on the shoulders pausing........"
There may be?........Some room?........Even funnier......
The path is a description of the points in space that the hands traverse. Part of the path is a straight line.
The shoulders describe their own path and that path is very clear. What is not as clear is how rapidly the shoulders are moving along that path.
Therefore there is no room for interpretation as far as the path of the hands. There is also no room for interpretation on the path of the shoulders. There is very definitely room for interpretation on the timing of the movement of the shoulders.
Your attempts to discredit what you don't understand can interfere with people who want to agree or disagree based on their own background and experience and as such it doens't make a positive contribution to this forum.
The shoulders describe their own path and that path is very clear. What is not as clear is how rapidly the shoulders are moving along that path.
Therefore there is no room for interpretation as far as the path of the hands. There is also no room for interpretation on the path of the shoulders. There is very definitely room for interpretation on the timing of the movement of the shoulders.
Your attempts to discredit what you don't understand can interfere with people who want to agree or disagree based on their own background and experience and as such it doens't make a positive contribution to this forum.
CADad, I know.........Whoa is me to try to discredit anything........Just make sure and let us know whenever there is room for us to argue a point and when there is no room for us to argue the point, O.K.?.......Thanks...
CADad
I thought you had really come around lately.
They aren't buying you off are they?
I thought you had really come around lately.
They aren't buying you off are they?
Mankin writes( and I paraphrase) upper body mechanics that get the bat moving in an arc behind the batter creates the proper swing. Anything else is half a swing. Only by learning this can one create proper lower body mechanics because the goal of lower body mechanics is to inititate, maintain and finally accelerate this upper body movement into the contact zone.
A common thought is that we can learn good lower body mechanics and then find a good starting bat position and build a high level swing is one I once had. There is no such thing.IMO. I now know that they must be taught from the beginning to work together.
Your lower body learns over time to support the activity and intent of the upper body. Not visa versa. My advice is know what happens above and below the waist and how they relate. Torque is two halves getting separated naturally and you better know what both halves are doing and how to make this happen
A common thought is that we can learn good lower body mechanics and then find a good starting bat position and build a high level swing is one I once had. There is no such thing.IMO. I now know that they must be taught from the beginning to work together.
Your lower body learns over time to support the activity and intent of the upper body. Not visa versa. My advice is know what happens above and below the waist and how they relate. Torque is two halves getting separated naturally and you better know what both halves are doing and how to make this happen
Heard an example of what I thought was a mixed message to a batter last night, coach hollered at his kid "come on extend, hit the ball out front". Putting the two together I saw the batter swing early and reach for the ball, and loose power.
Now I don't know what the batter thought but I heard it an thought the coach wanted the batter to extend TO the ball. From where I was sitting the batter was late and dropping his hands, looping swing, causing pop ups to the right side of the infield.
The batters response was he began to swing very early and started rolling his hands at contact, causing ground balls to the short stop.
Words are funny and powerful things, air and sound that allows some one to change the course of something dramatically. Like a rudder on a ship. Used well the ship goes where you want used poorly you wind up going in circles.
Just a random thought.
Now I don't know what the batter thought but I heard it an thought the coach wanted the batter to extend TO the ball. From where I was sitting the batter was late and dropping his hands, looping swing, causing pop ups to the right side of the infield.
The batters response was he began to swing very early and started rolling his hands at contact, causing ground balls to the short stop.
Words are funny and powerful things, air and sound that allows some one to change the course of something dramatically. Like a rudder on a ship. Used well the ship goes where you want used poorly you wind up going in circles.
Just a random thought.
quote:
Originally posted by Teacherman:
You seem to suggest earlier that a rotational hitter can't go oppo?
Where did I suggest that?
