The ethics of high school baseball

I’ll bite…
Personally I see nothing wrong with the move, especially if it works, then the coach is a geniuos.

When I began playing the game, baseball was about as gentlemanly as a kick in the crotch. ~ Ty Cobb

PB-
Pitching Inside? I hope we are teaching them to go in. Pitching inside is ethical and necessary to succeed. Throwing at a player with the intent to go above the shoulders is unethical.

Running & Bunting up more than TEN is a big no-no in my ethics book.

The courtesy switch scenario that you gave is a good question and I thought about it for a while. I say that it borders on the line of ethical depending on your personal views. I don’t think I would ever do it (if the PH is that slow I would probably just use another PR). I’m curious as to what the umps had to say?

Keep working hard,
Justin Stringer
Do It Right Baseball
Lane Tech Baseball
www.doitrightbaseball.com
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quote:

Originally posted by LTBB47:
if the PH is that slow I would probably just use another PR

Why "waste" a pinch runner if you don't have to? The same player could be used as a courtesy runner and still be eligible to play later.

Now ... if the catcher that re-entered didn't go back behind the plate when they took the field, then it is shady.

When I speak of pitching inside, I am speaking of moving hips off the plate.

quote:

coach PH for his catcher, PH walked, coached removed the PH, re-entered the catcher and attempted to use the courtesy runner in his place

Perfectly legal. I know that for two reasons.. read about it recently online where an umpire had quoted the book and I've been involved in this same situation.

Our coach pinch hit for me and the kid walked. The opponent's coach went to the mound for a visit so our coach asked the umpire about it. They said the catcher (me) had to go to first base in order to do it. Well, I had all my equipment on still. Didn't even take it off. Boy, did I hear about that one from the fans
I stepped on first base and then ran back to the dugout to be replaced by the courtesy runner

IMO

If it is within the rules... it is ethical. That is pretty minor stuff.

I've seen a lot worse than that - mostly in the area of verbal abuse. Parents don't say anything because they think it is going to affect their kid's playing time.

In the home half of the third inning, Team AÂ’s catcher is legally pinch-hit for by S1. S1 draws a walk, and the coach legally re-enters the catcher. Now, with the catcher on first base, the home teamÂ’s coach requests and uses a courtesy runner for the catcher. RULING: This is a legal use of the courtesy runner.

It is pretty shrewd when you think about it.....

I like the move


Throwing inside to harm--wrong. Throwing inside to establish the plate--not done enough imo.

Stealing up runs and bunting for hits at the same point? Ironic, I have seen many coaches do this PLAYBALL2!

I think how you play your opponent depends greatly on your opponent. Has your team never been up 10 runs and gotten beat? Or even close? We sure have, at every single level, including college. The game is never over until it's over. And when we're getting beat bad, there's nothing I hate more than seeing the other team start to slow it down for us... I think it's totally disrespectful to your opponent. Play the game - if you beat us by 3 or 30, who cares? You still win, we still lose. I can't stand when our parents start whining "why are their starters still in? why are they stealing bases? why are they going on passed balls?" WHY? Because that's how the game is played. Geesh.

As far as the rest, as long as it's legal in the rules, who cares? Smart coaches use the whole playbook to win. Good for them. And good pitchers use the whole plate. Good batters know how to respond. It's all part of the game.

And Smokey - you made me laugh... "as gentlemanly as a kick in the crotch"... so true!

I think the good ole 10 run rule sometimes causes the running, bunting and stealing when up.

It has a coach trying to get out of a game early.
Have seen guys up 8 or 9 and stealing to get the guys into scoring position to end the game. Tough call there. Been in that spot a couple times and it isnt an easy decision. Not even sure what the right decision here is. Station to Station, or get r done?

Playball2, I find it interesting also getting a hitting coaches perspective on pitchers coming inside. Kind of like me saying a hitter shouldnt crowd the plate... Its funny to me, not challenging what your saying , but I teach pitchers to do exactly what you said not to. If the hips and feet dont move, the purpose pitch was a wasted pitch. If a hitter goes into the box knowing that the pitcher wont come inside, Advantage hitter. If he knows you command the inner half, different mindset. and I mean pitching inside only to give the outside pitch a chance.

Hitters think they own the plate, pitchers should counter that. Thats the battle and the beauty of the batter and hitter confrontation.

I realize that my kids are pitchers but most everything I have seen develop over the years is in favor of the hitters.

Why do most umpires give a "ball width" off the plate outside? They never do that inside. They are encouraging pitchers NOT to throw inside.

I have said it multiple times on these sites, if they RAISED the height of the strike zone to where it was supposed to be and hitters had to protect the top of the strike zone, pitchers would not have to throw inside IMO. Using the correct strike zone is going to keep hitters from leaning over the plate and diving into the ball. Goodness, gracious, some of these umps don't even call it a strike at the crotch now. The belt buckel is bad enough - now I see it even lower than that.

In my day, if I saw a hitter dig a nice hole for his back foot, to get comfortable in the box, then the first pitch was going to make him get that foot out of that hole. If you do that today? I hit a guy once in college 3 times because his hands were set up over the plate - in the strike zone. So why does the ump give him the base when the ball was a strike? Come on.

It all about the hitters.

nc dad, very well said, i agree completely, i once had a situation where a kids back foot was almost behing the inside corner of the plate, i had him 0-2, i threw a slider that started at his hip, breaks on the inside corner of the plate at just barely clips the hitters knee, the catcher was still able to catch the ball and it was a strike, the umpire made a very delayed call and actually sent the runner to first base, i understand that if a batter gets hit he goes to first, but where a hitter stands in the batters box have too much effect on how and umpire calls balls and strikes

BALLYALL not sure why my screen name is in capitals, but I believe you run your offense to get that 10th run, that 10th run saves your starters arm on throwing another 20 to 30 pitches and is critical for his next throwing opportunity, most likely 4 days later.

Sparky, trust me we throw in, this year more than ever.

pitcher 25

If you pitch long enough, you will see it all. I never threw at a guy's head, if you pitch long enough, and the situation arises that you have to peg a guy - do it in their largest muscle! All part of the game, just like a hard slide, but head shots are a no - no.

I think that catcher move is a way to exploit the rule. I hear alot about the stretching or taking advantage of loopholes at the HS level for some reason. If it was a real close game I can see him using the pinch runner, otherwise just let the kid run. Some of these catchers haven't run for 4 years of HS, they pinch run for them with 0 outs. The kids need to learn to run sometime because in college they won't be getting a courtesy runner for them. I personally think it hurts the kids growth. I can see it with 2-outs to speed the game up but every team I am sure has a backup catcher that is able to warm up the pitcher between innings. As for throwing inside, do it all day. That's part of the game, if the hitter gets mad do it again cause your probably in his head. The hitter shouldn't care and either should anyone else. They need to hit that pitch and cover that part of the plate anyway, too many kids lean out over it trying to slap balls the other way.

Sparky and nc42dad are right on about pitching inside. It is no different than elevating a fastball to change eye level or trying to expand away. If you need to get hitters out on the outer part of the plate, then you also must pitch in off the plate to open up and protect yourself out there.

There is a right way and a wrong way to do it, and you need to have decent command to attempt it, but it is essential to make the hitter move his hips and feet.

In college, there is a sign for "move his feet". If you want to see a coach get po'd, miss away when that's called. Coach doesn't care if you miss inside and plunk him, but he better see some lower half movement in the box or there's going to be a one way exchange of words in the dugout between innings.

People who say velocity doesn't matter, haven't watched how a hard thrower can control the inner half with more respect. It can make that slider or 11/7 duece into an out pitch when it starts in on their hips.

I know this is changing the subject here , but i would like Playball's opinion on one of his fellow high school coach's ( Napoleon- new trier ) running up the score unneccesarily 32-1 against niles north on wednesday. How could he possibly feel good about what he taught his team after that debacle ?

I need to know what you deem as being unneccessary, did they station to station baseball? Secondly, what do you mean by a "feel good", this time of the year it is about advancing, need far more information on the game, to comment. Tell me more.

Im sure that baseballdad54 can give us more insight on what transpired out there because he was there . But this much i know---Any decent coach can prevent the score from reaching that point . I heard he left his starters in there way too long and was intent on rubbing it in due to a personal feud with the Niles North coach. Adavancing ??? are you kidding me ? you dont need to put up 32 runs when 20 would have been more than enough . A classless act on Napoleons part. Now i understand why he is not the most well-liked guy around .

Paul,
If you have any chance to look at the box score, NT did not have any SB's, had only one bunt(in the 1st inning), no extra bases we taken, the bench was cleared in the 2nd inning, 3 different pitchers were used, and the reserves had more at bats than the starters. Maybe you should look at the product they were playing. You had some pretty bold statements for not even witnessing the game.

My son was the catcher for the losing team. He had to squat for literally 1:10 minutes with a 5 minute break in just the first two innings.

The score was run up. Napoleon was mad because Coach Toledo was the only coach in the sectional to seed NT 3rd. all other coaches had them one. Napoleon was heard yelling at Toledo, "Does that look like a 3 seed to you?"

Many of the parents form our scholl, and the AD wants an apology. My son doesn't. If we are that bad, it is on us.

By the way, Dillon Napolean was not pulled until the 3rd inning, when the score was in the 20's. There is no question the score was purposly run up as a vendetta. It could be from when Toledo caoched at Evanston. Incidently, just a couple of years ago,NN beat NT 3 out of 4 including eliminating them in Regionals. That was when Tony Tichy was coach. My son was a freshman catcher when we beat NT.

The score also got out of hand due to coach Toledo. Our first pitcher is a sophomore who had one start all year. Teh first 3 pitchers were sophomores, on was his first varsity game. He also threw the equipment mangager. Down 22-0, wit a man on second and one out, NN sacrifice bunted the man to third.

Both coaches have a lot to answer for. The kids were pawns in some bs ego match bewtween two supposedly grown men.

I have a significant disagreemet with our AD and most of the parents. They want an apology and sanctions vs Napoleon. My son and I think it is whinning. If you can't do anything about the beating, take it and move on.

To Toledos credit, he didn't have his pitchers throw at anyone (not that they throw hard enough for it to hurt). But in the regional win 3 years ago, we hit back to back dingers vs NT's Glaus (who went to Texas). Napoleon came to the mound. the next kid got hit with a pitch. That is how Napoleon plays the game. Why Toledo dissed NT in the seeding meetings, I don't know.

Bballdad--everything you said is all fine and good . But still in my opinion the winning coach has got to take the high road and keep the score respectable . putting up 32 runs in any scenario is just totally wrong and unacceptable. Putting up 20 runs would have sufficed enough to take care of whatever feud they had going on. Napoleon should be embarrassed for himself. I hope this comes back to haunt him .

Man, what a story!

Sulltiger24- I agree with you 100%.

quote:

The kids were pawns in some bs ego match bewtween two supposedly grown men.

Well said bballdad. You hit the nail right on the big heads of some of these H.S. coaches...

quote:

Napoleon should be embarrassed for himself. I hope this comes back to haunt him .

Looks like it just did today. They lost 4-2

Mash, that was not my quote, I wrote on the bottom, Sulltiger was asking my opinion on another thread so I moved it to the ethics in HS baseball thread.

by the way New Trier Lost in Regional Championship game 4-2.

Let's take Napoleon and Toledo out of the equation. How are suppose to stop your players from playing the game. NT had 16 baserunners without even putting the ball in play. Do you want players to purposely make outs? Wouldn't that be a mockery of the game?

that's why I needed more information, there is a fine line in baseball ettiquite

I also heard that Naps was ticked about the 3 seed. This NT team, although with a great record, is nowhere near as strong as it has been in the past.

Well, if you believe in Karma, there is some justification here.

Bye Bye Trevians!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mash, why are you from the NW suburbs, but have the scoring line on the NT game?

You said they didn't bunt as evidence of their sportsmanship. Drag bunting is one way to make outs without embarrassing the other team.

For obvious reason, I would rather this all go away.

I think NT lost to GBS because they wore themselves out on Wednesday.

Looks like Napoleon and NT could have used some of those 32 runs today vs. GBS . He got what he deserved . Justice was served . Im not the biggest Toledo fan myself, but im sure he was smiling when he heard this score .