The head of the nail has been hit

RJM posted:

I agree with Pitchingfan. The last few times I’ve gone to a game I asked my friend how many people attending he thought we legit fans. How many could name the starting lineup and pitching rotation. We figured easily less than half. The number of  ignorant, uninformed comments and questions is mind boggling. The more expensive the seat typically the less informed the fan.

I don't see your problem with this.  I knew nothing about baseball when my sons were young.  We went to MLB games as a family, because we had a son who really wanted to go, and it was a pleasant family experience for everyone.  The boys didn't all love it in the same way at every age, the sno-cones and cotton candy, and the game area, were a big part of it at various ages.  Now I have three almost-adults, we still go to games as a family outing; I know more about baseball now, the beer is noticeably better now, too.  Are you saying I should not have gone when I wasn't a "legit fan"?  How would I have raised 3 fans, then?

Everybody is making more money these days.  The teams especially with TV deals, the MLB players, the travel ball industry, the college coaches, the Little League World Series/ESPN... The business of Baseball is booming

Anyone who claims that the game is broken isn't following the money...

RJM posted:

2019Dad posted:

Youth baseball participation up:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/i...-sports-11550613795?

 

At the high school level, baseball participation is also up:

https://www.statista.com/stati...igh-school-baseball/

The discussion is about MLB. These numbers have absolutely nothing to do with MLB. If they did attendance and viewership would be increasing, not in decline. 

Well I thought it was relevant because in the thread above were the following comments:

• "Less kids are playing baseball. It means less fans in the future." 
• "Declining kid participation"
• "Travel leagues destroyed Little League and made children's baseball into a money, time and life sucking monster"

MLB has had declines in attendance the last few years (it was 4% last year). Of course, average ticket prices are up over 15% in the last five years: https://www.statista.com/stati...-the-mlb-since-2006/ Strange that there is less demand at a higher price, right?

2019Dad posted:

RJM posted:

2019Dad posted:

Youth baseball participation up:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/i...-sports-11550613795?

 

At the high school level, baseball participation is also up:

https://www.statista.com/stati...igh-school-baseball/

The discussion is about MLB. These numbers have absolutely nothing to do with MLB. If they did attendance and viewership would be increasing, not in decline. 

Well I thought it was relevant because in the thread above were the following comments:

• "Less kids are playing baseball. It means less fans in the future." 
• "Declining kid participation"
• "Travel leagues destroyed Little League and made children's baseball into a money, time and life sucking monster"

MLB has had declines in attendance the last few years (it was 4% last year). Of course, average ticket prices are up over 15% in the last five years: https://www.statista.com/stati...-the-mlb-since-2006/ Strange that there is less demand at a higher price, right?

Higher ticket prices should increase tv viewership if interest in MLB isn’t diminishing. Tv viewership is also down. This issue, and even the conversation has nothing to do with youth baseball. The quality of MLB is down and getting more unwatchable by the year. A game that has been called boring by average sports fans for years is now getting boring to many baseball purists. Too many games are a bunch of strikeouts while waiting for a home run to happen. Home runs are exciting. But it’s boring if nothing happens for innings between home runs. 

Rob Deer was just ahead of his time. He would fit right in to today’s game. 

https://www.baseball-reference...ers/d/deerro01.shtml

fenwaysouth posted:

Teaching Elder posted:

 

I can't believe you pay for MLB network LOL.  I refuse to pay for cable, which was supposed to get me things like baseball games, only to be told, "If you want to watch baseball, that will cost you more."

TE - We cut the cord a couple years ago when it made financial sense.   We tried all kinds of streaming services (Sling, DirectTV Now, YouTube TV, etc...)  but they kept jacking up the prices and our standalone internet service was getting more expensive.

Well a funny thing happened as we were doing this....we looked at the 2 year contract specials being offered by the two cable companies in our area and it was vastly less expensive for them to provide internet and required household channels (Tennis Channel and HGTV) than the streaming services + internet.  So, a couple months ago we went back.   I suspect we're not alone.

Just did the same.

fenwaysouth posted:

Teaching Elder posted:

 

I can't believe you pay for MLB network LOL.  I refuse to pay for cable, which was supposed to get me things like baseball games, only to be told, "If you want to watch baseball, that will cost you more."

TE - We cut the cord a couple years ago when it made financial sense.   We tried all kinds of streaming services (Sling, DirectTV Now, YouTube TV, etc...)  but they kept jacking up the prices and our standalone internet service was getting more expensive.

Well a funny thing happened as we were doing this....we looked at the 2 year contract specials being offered by the two cable companies in our area and it was vastly less expensive for them to provide internet and required household channels (Tennis Channel and HGTV) than the streaming services + internet.  So, a couple months ago we went back.   I suspect we're not alone.

Cord cutting is increasing. Cable subscriptions are in decline. Cord cutting is definitely less expensive. The double play offer in my area is advertised at $79. However, once they add on all their fees for doing nothing it’s $146. After two years it’s $168. If I want Showtime for a month there’s a monthly fee, an install fee for doing nothing and a deinstall fee for doing nothing. 

I have 100 Mbps internet service for $65 and You Tube TV for $50. When Billions ends I pay for one month of Showtime without any on/off fees. I watch Berlin Station and Deep State on Epix whenever one of their three or four times a year free trail weeks are available. Otherwise it would be $6 for one month.

Other than sports there are only four shows (two are 10 episode seasons) on tv/cable. Six short season shows I watch are on NetFlix. The other two are on Epix. I had NetFlix when I had cable. So I don’t see it as an extra cost.

When I had cable I had fifteen stations I watched and 150 I didn’t. Now I have the same 15 stations and only 55 I don’t watch. 

The best part of You Tube TV versus cable is when I have a problem. If cable can’t fix it over the phone after they blame your tv, any of your equipment attached to their equipment and you they come to your house next week. If a streaming app has a problem you uninstall it and reinstall it. I’ve had three problems in three years with steaming tv. Cable was a monthly issue with three or four on site visits per year.

Northland posted:

USA Today has of history of 'baseball is dying' articles.  This one is nothing more than the equivalent of an old man yelling at kids to get off his lawn.  The MLB is thriving and is better than it has ever been.  Modern MLB players are far superior to those in the past.  MLB parks are far superior to those in the past.  The MLB is putting a quality product out through numerous mediums and languages.  And there are millions world wide who are still fans and ballpark attendance is not the only measure of how MLB is doing.

And if a robo-ump does a better job why would we not want to use it? 

Both tv ratings and ballpark attendance are down a lot  compared to 20 years ago.

I also agree that mlb is still a great product but they are mostly doing well financially because they are being able to squeeze more money out of their shrinking and aging audience. 

I don't think that this has to do with the style or quality of play which I think is great but this development imo is worrysome at least to a degree.

Imo mlb will have a tough time when TV is dead and completely replaced by streaming because the young people don't like to pay as much for streaming as the old folks do for cable. This problem means no more multi billion dollar cable deals.

Mlb definitely isn't dying but they definitely need find ways to attract more young people, they can't rely too much on the still good financial numbers because the demographics aren't so favorable. 

Almost on cue, article on ESPN today on youth baseball participation:

 https://www.espn.com/mlb/story...l-participation-rise

"The increase in baseball participation is real, there's no question about it, and it's substantial. It's statistically significant without a doubt," said Tom Cove, president and CEO of the SFIA."

Yes, it doesn't immediately solve MLB attendance declines from the last few years, but rising youth participation is a good thing for the future.

MLB is constantly analyzing its economics. It employs an entire department just to maximize profits. Lots of variables are identified, analyzed, and weighed. The guys who work there are dedicated baseball fanatics (which is why pay can be less yet quality remain unsurpassed) and the top product of their schools. That's one reason every year brings more revenue and profit. 

(I dont enjoy the current product. But, in the end MLB is simply a biz with a lot of zeros after the first number.)

2019Dad posted:

Almost on cue, article on ESPN today on youth baseball participation:

 https://www.espn.com/mlb/story...l-participation-rise

"The increase in baseball participation is real, there's no question about it, and it's substantial. It's statistically significant without a doubt," said Tom Cove, president and CEO of the SFIA."

Yes, it doesn't immediately solve MLB attendance declines from the last few years, but rising youth participation is a good thing for the future.

Yes it is.  Would be great to see more kids love to play the game as well as watch. 

Many kids have trouble with the pace of baseball in both playing and watching. I doubt anything can be done to change it. Hopefully, it will be trendy again to play a sport that has such complexity (rules, pace of play), a rich history and tradition. Maybe it needs to accept it is a niche activity for youth like chess, make wiffleball the game for the general masses since it can be playes with 4 to 6 players. and baseball for those who want to graduate to team play.

Or change baseball here to be more like the baseball they play in Finland...    Apparently, it's a lot more fast paced and exciting.

atlnon posted:

Or change baseball here to be more like the baseball they play in Finland...    Apparently, it's a lot more fast paced and exciting.

And like so many US kids with baseball in recent decades, he (Tuukka Rusk, Boston Bruins) soon opted for other sports with more action, namely soccer and hockey.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sp...TJAjrLKkN/story.html

But ...  “It’s fast to play, more entertaining than baseball,’’ noted Rask, a frequent visitor to Fenway Park over his eight years in Boston. “I mean, it’s not like you go to a game and have 10 Bud Lites with friends; a lot is happening.’’

I suppose I have a hard time relating to that.  Every pitch is an event, to me, in Baseball.  The strategy of what pitch to throw in what count, where the umpire sets up, the adjustments the batter makes, the hitter's swing mechanics, and stance, where he sets up in the box, heck even where the umpire sets up, there is a ton of action in every pitch.   The remarkable ability to make contact with a ball moving 95+ mph with movement only adds to the fun...

I think you have a very good point.  Lack of love for the game is going to follow a lack of appreciation for its intricacies.   I think soccer and hockey are boring, but I don’t understand their intricacies. 

For people saying when attending an MLB game, the game is not the main attraction, well, that's true for virtually every sport except maybe the NFL (don't attend many NFL games). They all have a million side attractions for the kids, bars and restaurants for the adults, blaring music, scoreboard cams, etc. People aren't in their seats. It's just the way sports are now, probably to justify the cost of the tickets. It doesn't mean baseball is failing.

I think attendance dropping is more a function of more teams than ever tanking. It's not new to baseball but it's more widespread than usual. Hard to motivate people to attend when the team isn't trying. The other sport with a lot of tanking, the NBA, is much more individual-star driven, so even if your local team sucks you can go see the Warriors, Rockets, Sixers, Lakers, etc. and see one of the other heavily hyped superstars play. Baseball, the way it works, you can go see Trout and he could easily go 0 for 4. It's unlikely you'll go see the Warriors and Curry will score 6 points (now he might rest that night, but that's another story). And even with all of that said, plenty of NBA games it looks like the first level is half-empty and they announce a sellout, or close to it...but those seats are owned by companies that only use them half the time.