The M, velocity, Pronation, Supination, and off topic remarks

Is this PAS elbow height dangerous in this position. Opinions? I do know how you feel Chris, and encourage you to post.

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Originally posted by deemax:
Is this PAS elbow height dangerous in this position. Opinions? I do know how you feel Chris, and encourage you to post.

It's certainly different than what Greg Maddux does...











Thanks to the late bbscout for the GM clip.

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It's certainly different than what Greg Maddux does...

Does that make it dangerous? or just different...

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Thanks to the late bbscout for the GM clip.

I was there when this was filmed...it was 50 degrees and the wind was blowing, and it was cold. Maddux was out there in OP shorts and I think a Gotcha T-shirt....good day

I think Mr. O'Leary loves to emphasize the importance of staying the elbow down the shoulder level (ala Maddux, Big Unit) and opposes M arm action. I actually don't konw the scientific explanation for it, though

I've had 2 thoughts on this ever since Chris began posting about it a couple of years ago, I believe.

#1. I've pointed out many times that the height of the elbow when it displays this "M" is very temporary. It returns back to shoulder height, or thereabouts, long before any serious external rotation happens. If we assume zero degrees of ext. rotaion is when the forearm is horizontal, pointing forward (relative to the trunk, not the plate) and straight down is -90, the "easy" ext. rotation would be from -90 to +90, or straight down to straight up. Note the range when ext. rotation is happening at the same time the elbow is up there. Very benign, I propose. The real extreme range, again just my theory, is from +90 (high cocked +-) to +180 (full external rotation). In M pitchers, the elbow is back down to shoulder height by the time the ext. rotation has reached 0 to 5 deg. (guesses on my part from video).

The elbow is dropping while even this much is happening. So, as far as impingement is concerned, is this dangerous? My theory is no.

#2. Having said #1, I still am uncomfortable with the M but not because of any alignment issues with respect to ext. rotation. With no science or training to back it up, I propose that the delay of any external rotation causes a marked increase in the velocity of external rotation into the extreme range (+90 to +180 deg.) and thus an increase in the stresses on the rotator cuff and related tissues.

IMHO

dm59

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The elbow is dropping while even this much is happening. So, as far as impingement is concerned, is this dangerous? My theory is no.

Related to this i replied in a locked thread that I pitched with a great deal shoulder pain, and never once did my shoulder hurt during my back stroke while my shoulder was damaged.

With that being said I think there is some truth to "So, as far as impingement is concerned, is this dangerous? My theory is no."

quote:

Originally posted by dm59:
I've pointed out many times that the height of the elbow when it displays this "M" is very temporary. It returns back to shoulder height, or thereabouts, long before any serious external rotation happens...In M pitchers, the elbow is back down to shoulder height by the time the ext. rotation has reached 0 to 5 deg. (guesses on my part from video).

The elbow is dropping while even this much is happening. So, as far as impingement is concerned, is this dangerous? My theory is no.

DM, I've repeatedly shown you that this isn't the case with Anthony Reyes. Notice how high his PAS elbow is as his PAS upper arm externally rotates.

36.

37.

38.

39.

40.

41.

quote:

Originally posted by dm59:
#2. Having said #1, I still am uncomfortable with the M but not because of any alignment issues with respect to ext. rotation. With no science or training to back it up, I propose that the delay of any external rotation causes a marked increase in the velocity of external rotation into the extreme range (+90 to +180 deg.) and thus an increase in the stresses on the rotator cuff and related tissues.

We agree on this point.

Here's some science to back it up in the form of an e-mail I received from a fairly prominent orthopedic surgeon...

Chris I am an orthopedic surgeon, and would like to offer you a theory on why the inverted W is bad to the long term health of the shoulder.
In the position of hyper abduction, elevation and extension of the distal humerus above the shoulder (inverted W) the inferior glenohumeral ligament is placed on stretch. The humeral head must lever against it to advance the arm forward. This ligament is the primary anterior stabilizer of the glenohumeral joint with the arm elevated (i.e. pitching). In other words, this position places this ligament under tension, then it is levered against in order to throw. This eventually will either loosen the shoulder, or tear the anterior labrum. It should be recognized this ligament is under stress during the "normal" delivery. If you traumatically dislocate your shoulder, this ligament is a key part of the pathology.
Shoulder instability in turn leads to impingement, and other problems. Conversely, when the elbow is below the shoulder, this ligament would not be as stressed.
Also, the specific use and timing of the muscles about the shoulder is critical. They have done muscle activity studies during throwing, and there are distinct differences between amateurs and professionals. There is also evidence for muscle use differences in the healthy shoulders, and the ones that aren't.

If you don't want to listen to me, then listen to him.

Listen to who-- ??? you post a supposed email with no name on it---Chris let's get real !!!---I can write as well as anyone else can---if you use sources cite the author---please

Frame 40 looks like his elbow is back to where you like it TPG.

As the doc says it is a theory and I guess you are not the discoverer of that theory.
I would ask the doctor if that theory is abated by an athelete who has properly conditioned himself to throw at high velo.
A normal person would stress his ligament and possibly tear the labrum but a top conditioned athlete who constantly keeps the ligament and other shoulder muscles will be able to with stand this M of yours.
I believe it is very important to have your shoulder checked at least twice during the season for any detrioration.
my belief is that most young pitchers and even more so catchers do not properly condition their shoulders to withstand the stress on ligaments,rotator etc. That is why there are so many young kids getting arm problems.
As far as teh ortho backing YOUR theory it is not your theory. You just happen to lay claim to it. There are many issues that can lead to arm problems otherwise the problems that occur would all be the same.

quote:

Originally posted by dm59:
I propose that the delay of any external rotation causes a marked increase in the velocity of external rotation into the extreme range (+90 to +180 deg.) and thus an increase in the stresses on the rotator cuff and related tissues.

quote:

Originally posted by wrstdude:
Frame 40 looks like his elbow is back to where you like it TPG.

It's still high in 40.

41 is more where I like it.

Notice how much the shoulders have turned between frames 37 and 41. That means the external rotation is especially forceful.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
As the doc says it is a theory and I guess you are not the discoverer of that theory.

It's my theory. He's just providing a rationale for why it's bad.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I would ask the doctor if that theory is abated by an athelete who has properly conditioned himself to throw at high velo.

I have asked him and the answer is no. The problem is that you are putting the shoulder in a mechanically inferior position. No amount of conditioning can deal with that fundamental problem.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
A normal person would stress his ligament and possibly tear the labrum but a top conditioned athlete who constantly keeps the ligament and other shoulder muscles will be able to with stand this M of yours.

The whole point of his e-mail is that this isn't the case. He's specifically talking about the problems faced by highly-conditioned pro athletes.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
my belief is that most young pitchers and even more so catchers do not properly condition their shoulders to withstand the stress on ligaments,rotator etc.

I agree, but poor mechanics are a separate problem. Conditioning can put off problems, but as long as your mechanics are poor, the problems will inevitably crop up.

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Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
As far as teh ortho backing YOUR theory it is not your theory. You just happen to lay claim to it.

Why is it some important to you that it not be my idea?

I am not aware of anyone else who has ever talked about the problem with the Inverted W or Hyperabduction. Only since I have started talking about the problem with the Inverted W and Hyperabduction have guys like Dick Mills and Will Carroll started talking about the topic.

I agree you may have intor duced the alphabet soup approach to this issue but I heve heard people talk about for years. ASMI has also looked at it with no conclusive findings.
My son has always been taught to bring his elbows to shoulder height. Not avove of below. He as I have mentioned is a former coach and has written excerpts in the pitchers edge series.

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Originally posted by thepainguy:
DM, I've repeatedly shown you that this isn't the case with Anthony Reyes. Notice how high his PAS elbow is as his PAS upper arm externally rotates.

Chris. You need to read my post a little more. I "have repeatedly shown you that" the external rotation that happens with the elbow that high is very minimal AND is within the range of -90 deg. to 0 deg. or maybe a bit more. This also happens AS the elbow is dropping. It does NOT stay up there. The elbow is at shoulder height by the time the forearm is horizontal or just barely above it.

How much external rotation of the humerus happens with the elbow at the maximum height? From -90 deg. to -89 deg.? The elbow is in the process of dropping virtually immediately. Could you please have your ortho address this? You've shown me that quote before and I asked this same question before but I haven't heard a follow-up. That quote addresses external rotation AT THAT ELBOW HEIGHT. It doesn't recognize what I describe above.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:

Glavine's interesting as is Moyer.



They are much more "T" than is Maddux. That has made me think about this some.

Glavine's elbow does seem to drop as his shoulders start to rotate, but it still stays pretty much in the "T".



However, he's certainly not an example of the "M".

Also, individual anatomical differences do come into play. For example, there are 3 different styles of Acromial processes. Your impingement risk may vary according to the type you have.

quote:

Originally posted by dm59:
Chris. You need to read my post a little more. I "have repeatedly shown you that" the external rotation that happens with the elbow that high is very minimal AND is within the range of -90 deg. to 0 deg. or maybe a bit more. This also happens AS the elbow is dropping. It does NOT stay up there. The elbow is at shoulder height by the time the forearm is horizontal or just barely above it.

How much external rotation of the humerus happens with the elbow at the maximum height? From -90 deg. to -89 deg.? The elbow is in the process of dropping virtually immediately. Could you please have your ortho address this? You've shown me that quote before and I asked this same question before but I haven't heard a follow-up. That quote addresses external rotation AT THAT ELBOW HEIGHT. It doesn't recognize what I describe above.

What you're saying doesn't jibe with what's in the sequence. There's more than 1 degree of ER with the elbow elevated.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
My son has always been taught to bring his elbows to shoulder height. Not above of below.

That doesn't mean it's right.

How do you reconcile what your son has been taught with what Maddux, Johnson, and others actually do?

Shouldn't we teach people to do what the best, and most durable, pitchers actually do?

painguy

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Glavine's interesting as is Moyer. They are much more "T" than is Maddux. That has made me think about this some.

Glavine's elbow does seem to drop as his shoulders start to rotate, but it still stays pretty much in the "T".

Look at Glavine, Maddux, and Smoltz ( who isnt your favorite), and they have all had similar types of careers with amazing results and a variety of arm actions.

Is it possible, even probable that one needs to look at the braves throwing and conditioning program as opposed to the hieght of the PAS elbow in terms of durability and success?

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
What you're saying doesn't jibe with what's in the sequence. There's more than 1 degree of ER with the elbow elevated.

Yes, I exaggerated, intentionally but how much is it? 10? 45? 90? My question remains, though. ANY external rotation that happens with the elbow above the shoulder line is within that range from -90 to 0, maybe +10. The elbow is also progressively getting lower. It does not stay up there.

Get your "expert" to look at video and take everything into account, not just your still images. Take into account the immediate dropping of the elbow. Up until now, you haven't and that quote misses this also.

Look at Glavine, Maddux, and Smoltz ( who isnt your favorite), and they have all had similar types of careers with amazing results and a variety of arm actions.

Is it possible, even probable that one needs to look at the braves throwing and conditioning program as opposed to the hieght of the PAS elbow in terms of durability and success?[/QUOTE]



I agree 100%! The Braves obviously do MANY things right!

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
Look at Glavine, Maddux, and Smoltz ( who isnt your favorite), and they have all had similar types of careers with amazing results and a variety of arm actions.

Based on what I see in the clip below, I think people are overstating the degree that John Smoltz makes the M (aka Inverted W).















While Smoltz's elbow does get higher than Maddux or Johnson's, it never goes above the level of his shoulders.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
Is it possible, even probable that one needs to look at the braves throwing and conditioning program as opposed to the hieght of the PAS elbow in terms of durability and success?

There's no question that the Braves throwing and conditioning program is important. However, I don't think it's the whole story.

tpg

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Based on what I see in the clip below, I think people are overstating the degree that John Smoltz makes the M (aka Inverted W).

I have seen JS arm slot change in different clips. Maybe because of pain or age or thats just how he wanted to throw that particular pitch. Does his degree of M vary? Im sure.

Do you think John Smoltz has a great arm action? I do. I also think Maddux and Glavine have great arm actions. I dont put a yea or nay vote on an action based soley on PAS elbow height. There is so much more to it than that.

Speaking of Smoltz, he has the best slider of any starting pitcher in the big leagues...IMO

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