The not so great Little league "lob ball" change-up

In my opinion an effective change up occurs when the batter can't tell the difference when it comes out of the pitchers hand whether it will be a fastball or change. The difference in speed should be enough that the batter swings early enough that they either miss or hit the ball far enough out front that it causes them to hit it off the sweet spot. This will make them hit a weak ground ball or easy pop up.

The key to the whole thing is that the pitcher does not change their delivery or arm speed when throwing the pitch. It must decieve the batter to where he doesn't know which pitch is coming.

Not sure the exact % difference in speed. I'm thinking somewhere between 8-12% off their fastball. This would make a major leaguer throwing a 90 mph fast ball throw a change up between 79 and 83.

Once again deception is the key. If a pitcher is slowing down their arm to throw the pitch or changing their delivery in some way, the batters will pick it up and it will not be effective no matter how slow you throw it.

There was a recent article about the Mets Santana in which an opposing batter was quoted regarding why Santana's changeup was so devastating.

His comment was that most pitchers have some slight variation between FB and Change that MLB hitters can get a slight clue from. Santana's change was described as being exactly the same motion and release as his fastball.

quote:

Originally posted by Pedropere:
There was a recent article about the Mets Santana in which an opposing batter was quoted regarding why Santana's changeup was so devastating.

His comment was that most pitchers have some slight variation between FB and Change that MLB hitters can get a slight clue from. Santana's change was described as being exactly the same motion and release as his fastball.

We've told this to GBM in other posts as he has stated his son throws from different angles. That works when you are 14, won't work against better hitters. The changeup should be 10-12mph lower than the highest velocity.

quote:

We've told this to GBM in other posts as he has stated his son throws from different angles. That works when you are 14, won't work against better hitters. The changeup should be 10-12mph lower than the highest velocity.

TPM,

Thanks, but no thanks! If you don't have something pleasent to say keep it to yourself please!

If a pitcher has to drastically slow his arm down to throw a change up then he's not a pitcher. A real pitcher will be able to throw a changeup with very little difference in delivery. It's impossible to not have a small change in your delivery when throwing a changeup. The reason why a changeup works is because it's deeper in the palm than a fastball - out on the fingers.

As TPM says a changeup should be in the neighborhood of 10 - 12 mph slower than the fastball. It doesn't matter what level you are if you drastically slow your arm down - you are not a pitcher. You need to develop this pitch in the bullpen and long toss.

You really learn to throw a changeup long tossing it (not at the farthest distance but while moving out). Stay with good mechanics and throw it around 120 feet or so. This way you are getting good arm action working on slowing down the ball.

I can only give my experience coaching traveling baseball through 15 year olds..

The change you're referring to can be very effective even to good hitters. It most effective at the 6th through 8th grade level.

My good hitters only needed to see it once or twice before they were able to determine the pitch upon release. It was always easy to watch the pitcher and pick up his movements and figure out his pitch routine.

In my experience, this change doesn't have legs after the middle school level.

My son has been using a cutter for his change because his movement is the same as when he throws his fastball.

regards,

caeflash

quote:

In my experience, this change doesn't have legs after the middle school level.

You have to be joking !!

Personally when I read GBM's post I thought what the heck is this guy talking about.
I was surprised posters replied to it.

quote:

My son has been using a cutter for his change because his movement is the same as when he throws his fastball.

Is there a significant change of speeds between your son's fastball and his cutter? If there isn't then he's not throwing a change up. He's throwing a fastball that moves more than his regular fastball. Nothing really wrong with that but he will need to develop a pitch that is significantly slower than his fastball without really slowing his arm down.

As for this pitch not really having legs after middle school that's really not true. If you can remember Dennis "Oil Can" Boyd when he was with the Expos in the mid 80's he used to throw an ephis (not sure if that's spelled correctly) pitch. He would go through his delivery and then as he was going from balance point to power position he would slow down and throw what would look like a slow pitch softball pitch. It had a huge arc and came down behind the plate.

Most of the time MLB hitters would just take it (some were strikes) but if they did swing they usually flied out to the OF. He didn't throw it much but when he did it usually made SportsCenter.

Bobblehead,

I'm referring to the change in the mechanics when the moon ball change is being thrown. It was quite easy after the first few pitches to figure out when the pitcher was going to throw it. The pitcher would change their delivery.

I should have clarified that those pitchers who can throw it without changing their delivery are successful..

Thanks Coach2709,

His fastball is in the low 80's and his cutter is in the low 70's.

He's constantly working on the change, but still has trouble because he changes his delivery speed.

Regards,

caeflash

Moon Ball ??

I would suggest you stick to palm change and circle change. Same arm action as FB and you will get the desired reduction in velocity.

At your son's age stay away from cutters and splitters and that is from a guy who loves CBs.

Coach,

Here's the cutter he's using as a change...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4eGkBS5JiM

Regards,

Caeflash

Lighten up , i'm from Minnesota where we call it a moon ball...

The original poster referred to it as a "lob ball"

Regards,

Caeflash

Thanks caeflash for the video. He's got nice mechanics and a pretty smooth delivery.

One thing is that when he gets in balance point the bottom of his foot faces second. I would work on keeping it more up and down with the bottom facing the ground. Reason being it will help him slow down a little and stay more in sync with his upper body. If he gets a little out of rythm then his lower body will have to rush to catch up with his upper body because the lower body has to work hard to cover as much space.

Basically what that means is he's swings his leg up to balance point which is (IMO) causing the foot to face 2B. He needs to be able to lift his knee straight up to get his foot facing down. By swinging his leg / foot he's now going to start having more swaying on his pivot leg which will get his timing out of whack. Let me know if this doesn't make sense and I will try to explain it agian.

How does he hold this pitch? This looks more like a curve / breaking pitch than a true cutter. To me a cutter is a fastball that has more movement to the side (not really changing planes) than up and down (changing planes) which this pitch seems to be doing.

Wow, Coach....

Thank you so much for your time and advice. I'm going to go back and break it down. I'm sure I'll have a few more questions if you don't mind.

He throws the cutter with two fingers off center and varies on how much he will turn his wrist.

We've worked long toss for the change, but now that its been brought up again; I'm going to have him work on it a lot more.

Regards,

Caeflash

Yes it looks like what I call a LL CB. Some call it a slip CB where the fingers slip off the one side inducing a slow curving 12-6 movement. My son threw that since he was 10 yo.
A good CU often has a late break. The velocity reduction occurs because the ball is set back in the hand reducing the fingers involvement in the pitch.
The palm and circle change are the best way to throw a CU.

No problem caeflash. I love talking baseball so ask away. I forgot to mention this earlier and really paid attention to it after I posted but his upper half is pretty good. I noticed the title of the video was glove tuck and it's pretty good shape.

From what you put it sounds like he's throwing a pitch that's not quite a curve and not quite a cutter. If he's off center then he doesn't need to turn the wrist any to get the movement. This is the cutter that is pretty close to same speed as regular fastball. Only difference is that he stays on top of that half and the release causes the ball to move to the side staying on the same plane.

If he's going to turn his wrist then he needs to get on top and bottom of the ball and get a good snap / rotation to develop that 12 - 6 tumble.

The palm and circle are the two most thrown changes but overall the change is about finding something that works for you (your son). As long as it's deep in the hand and the fingers aren't "snapping" the ball. The grip has to be worked on and find something that is comfortable.

I had a buddy in college who threw a change that I have never seen anyone else throw. He would hold it with his thumb and pinky with his other 3 fingers pretty much loose. It was very deep in his hand and he got great movement and I know because I would catch it. He did the palm / circle change but they weren't that good for him. When he threw this pitch with the pinky / thumb grip he was nasty. If he threw harder than 85 he would probably been signed as a free agent but he got a month with an independent league team.

Anyway - just have him seperate the two grips and let them become two different pitches. The long toss pitching is a great way to work on any pitch as long as you aren't going max effort for max distance. Just air it out with good mechanics. This was something my buddy did all the time.

Thanks coach...

This is such a great site.

Agreed about your view of his cutter.

I think I'll have him work on the advice you previously gave and then get a bit of video.

The change he's trying to get down is the three finger with the pinky and thumb underneath. He's tried the circle also.

I'll keep you posted..

Thanks again,

CAEflash

http://www.5min.com/Video/Chan...or-Pitchers-23475288

Not a problem caeflash and you are correct that this is a great site. Lot of great people who can / will give you great advice. Also you get to hear varying viewpoints from different perspectives.

Anytime I can be of help ask away.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
.....The changeup should be 10-12mph lower than the highest velocity.

Ah, not this gals point of view.

The most effective velocity of any off-speed pitch will be primarily determined by the hitter.

Deaden a change too much, and if pitch hears fat part of the bat, the hitter speaks.

Too much breaking pitch velo, and if pitch
hears the fat part of the bat, the hitter speaks.

Many appreciate a slider, with late movement and in both planes. And if greater than or in mid eighties,
misses a lot of bats!

Sorry Dear

Good videos - I just watched 5 or 6 of them - really well done.

quote:

Originally posted by J19:

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
.....The changeup should be 10-12mph lower than the highest velocity.

Ah, not this gals point of view.

The most effective velocity of any off-speed pitch will be primarily determined by the hitter.

Deaden a change too much, and if pitch hears fat part of the bat, the hitter speaks.

Too much breaking pitch velo, and if pitch
hears the fat part of the bat, the hitter speaks.

Many appreciate a slider, with late movement and in both planes. And if greater than or in mid eighties,
misses a lot of bats!

Sorry Dear

I'm with TPM on this one - 10-12 MPH works out very nicely at the college and pro level.

quote:

Originally posted by J19:

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
.....The changeup should be 10-12mph lower than the highest velocity.

Ah, not this gals point of view.

The most effective velocity of any off-speed pitch will be primarily determined by the hitter.

Deaden a change too much, and if pitch hears fat part of the bat, the hitter speaks.

Too much breaking pitch velo, and if pitch
hears the fat part of the bat, the hitter speaks.

Many appreciate a slider, with late movement and in both planes. And if greater than or in mid eighties,
misses a lot of bats!

Sorry Dear

...........what?????

Gonna ditto that........say what?

Every pitch is hittable, you just got to be smart enough to know when to throw it and watch where you throw it.

quote:

One thing is that when he gets in balance point the bottom of his foot faces second. I would work on keeping it more up and down with the bottom facing the ground. Reason being it will help him slow down a little and stay more in sync with his upper body.

We looked at the video and see exactly what you're referring to. He's going to work on it..

The only other thing I saw and was wondering if it made a difference was the back foot dragging...

Bobblehead,

Thank you for the video. We're on a mission to get the change down this time...

Regards,

Caeflash..

Your sons drag is a little more than normal but I don't think it will be that big of a deal. You can work on getting the leg up and it will only help him but I don't see it being that big of a deal.

Where it might be a factor is if you play on a terrible field with a hole in front of the rubber. Then he might have a hard time keeping his mechanics together because his foot will be lagging behind.

From checking the gameday data for MLB pitchers I see more like a 6 or 7 mph difference between the fastball and the change for most pitchers. I haven't tried to check Santana's differential.

A study was done showing that changeups that averaged between 4.5 and 11 mph slower than the fastball were effective. Less difference or more difference and the effectiveness tended to drop off. Of course if you are averaging 4.5 mph differential then you are going to throw some that have less differential and are more likely to get hit. That means you probably want to have a differential of anywhere from 6 to 11 mph from a 90 mph fastball.

quote:

From checking the gameday data for MLB pitchers I see more like a 6 or 7 mph difference between the fastball and the change for most pitchers. I haven't tried to check Santana's differential.

A study was done showing that changeups that averaged between 4.5 and 11 mph slower than the fastball were effective. Less difference or more difference and the effectiveness tended to drop off. Of course if you are averaging 4.5 mph differential then you are going to throw some that have less differential and are more likely to get hit. That means you probably want to have a differential of anywhere from 6 to 11 mph from a 90 mph fastball.

So if we are calculating a 7-12% differential with a happy medium 0f roughly 10% of their average fastball velocity then a little league fastball say thrown at 70 mph should be complimented by a change-up in the 61-65 mph zone with a happy medium at 63 mph to be effective.

What I am seeing a lot are pitches thrown at 70 mph and then followed up by a 50 mph change-up. I think that most coaches and players at this age (pre HS) do not understand the principle of the change-up. They may be somewhat effective, but they are just not throwing a true change-up in my opinion- more like a slow lob ball. I once offended a coach because I said that his kid threw a good lob ball (wasn't being sarcastic, just being truthful).

quote:

most coaches and players at this age (pre HS) do not understand the principle of the change-up. They may be somewhat effective, but they are just not throwing a true change-up in my opinion- more like a slow lob ball. I once offended a coach because I said that his kid threw a good lob ball (wasn't being sarcastic, just being truthful).

Really ??

I have no idea what differential would or wouldn't work off of LL fastballs, most of which are in the 50s. Way too big of an extrapolation from a MLB database. My guess is that with a 70 mph fastball in LL any changeup will be effective.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
....Every pitch is hittable, ....

Ok guys. Allow me to try and keep this simple.

Off-speed pitches are nominally 6 mph to 20 mph off an average pro fastball.

Pitchers, in MiLB, that learn how NOT to throw hittable pitches, advance rapidly.


Please do the math.

quote:

Originally posted by J19:

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
....Every pitch is hittable, ....

Ok guys. Allow me to try and keep this simple.

Off-speed pitches are nominally 6 mph to 20 mph off an average pro fastball.

Pitchers, in MiLB, that learn how NOT to throw hittable pitches, advance rapidly.


Please do the math.

I'm trying to figure out the math, it's not working. And I am not a guy.

Every FB, every CB, every slider, every change up is hittable. Depends on who's pitching and who is doing the hitting and the circumstances, timing and location. JMO. Show me one guy in MLB who doesn't get hit.

My son is a predominetly a groundball sinker guy, he'll force the hit in certain situations, he'll go for the strike out in certain situations. One hit, one out, or DP is much easier than battling each guy 6-7 pitches, helps keep your pitch count within limits you need to manage.

So are you saying because someone gets hit they'll never progress? If so, they must be teaching mine to do the wrong things.