The other side of Manny

Yea, that's very true! His considerable ability to hit a baseball not withstanding, how do you "stomach" his history of quitting on his Team and his teammates? How do you swallow that and then sell his presence to your ball club?

Must be my Military training coming to bear, but I wouldn't have him near my Team, he's no longer deserving to wear a MLB uniform IMO.

I'd tell him to retire and wait for History to sort out where his legacy will be.

When Manny was on my team (Indians), I was willing to look the other way on the dopey stuff because of the hall of fame production.

Now, with his PED usage and the fact he has now quit/loafed on two teams, I no longer cut him any slack. He needs to sail off into the sunset for the good of the game. Don't want little kids looking up to a dope/quitter/PED cheater like that anymore.

I do not have to sell his presence to my team.

He is without a doubt one of the top RH hitters of all time especially in the clutch.

That is all I care about

BTW Mantle was a boozer,Ruth was a boozer and womanizer and they are revered

I'm torn when it comes to guys like Manny. If he was a young kid on my former travel teams, with his attitude and effort between the lines, I probably would have ended up kicking him off my team no matter how good he was. However professional sports is about the bottom line--wins and losses and I can see how the Sox hope he can make a difference now. The only problem is that if he somehow helps you for a month, some dummy with power within the organization is going to think he can perform the same magic next year and want to resign him. We all know how that will turn out especially with him in the decline phase, without extra help and with his totally selfish approach. So I wouldn't waste my time on him. I even read the recent biography written about him to maybe better understand where he's coming from, but poverty, goofyness, and at times a very hard work ethic in the batting cage still do not excuse the extreme laziness in the field, on the basepaths, the not caring about how it affects your teammates or team's chances. In other words he is all about--ME--and no team can handle his antics for long especially as his reputation as a hitter surpasses his true declining production.

I'm also torn by Manny. My son loves his swing, and I occasionally enjoy some of his antics, but man he can be hard to swallow. Funny how after 15+ years in the big leagues he forgot how to speak English when he got to Chicago and requested a translator.
Speaking of Mantle and Ruth, TR, you coached those guys when they were young, didn't you?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
With all of Manny's quirks and stories we tend to forget one thing: his importance in the lineup

In two days Konerko has hit tweo gamer winning HR's with Manny waiting on deck---Konerko is now seeing better pitches---that is the other side of Manny when he is batting in the lineup

Actually, it was Pierzynski who hit the HR yesterday with Manny on deck.

We need to remember that these HR's got hit off guys who just gave up base hits and walks to other players and were not pitching well...I was watching, I'm a White Sox fan.

Did Pierzynski or Konerko get the benefit of Manny being on deck...maybe, but not as much as a pitcher who wasn't doing well to begin with. It's not like the guy was pitching a 3 hitter over 8 innings and he suddenly grooved one because he was thinking of Manny. These guys were pitching BP already.

Konerko is having an awesome Manny-like year without the presence of the real Manny. The difference between Ruth, Mantle and Manny is that Ruth and Mantle actually cared about winning games they were playing in. That actually was a problem with Mantle in his early career as he used to break bats, fight himself, and lose his concentration after striking out a couple of times. As he matured he became the Yankee leader on the field. I'm not sure even young Latin players accept Manny's antics as an example to follow.

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
how do you "stomach" his history of quitting on his Team and his teammates?

Can someone explain to when Manny has "quit"? Look at the stats from his last partial season in Boston. He was having his typical superstar season.

Look at the stats from this year. He still was having a great year when he was on the field. Sure he's been injured a lot, but at his age it's not unusual to have leg issues.

There is no excuse for the PED issues, but otherwise Manny largely has a perception problem due to his aloofness and quirks. The stats don't support any claim that he has quit.

I would venture to say that very few other players in baseball would be accused of quitting if they were to do the exact same things Manny has done.

http://www.baseball-reference....rs/r/ramirma02.shtml

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
BTW Mantle was a boozer,Ruth was a boozer and womanizer and they are revered

Neither of which has ever been attributed to corrupting the integrity of the game by artificially making people better than they naturally are.

Point is, there's a performance relevance to PED's. I think that's what the 'P' stands for.

Booze and women are are a separate issue. I've never seen a performance enhancing woman. (Except maybe the Memo Paris chick in The Natural).

Booze only enhances your performance on the dance floor. And boudoir. Sometimes karaoke.

The statistics don't tell the story. They just show either the talent he was born with or that he injected. Where have you been when he ran his 6.something sprints to first base, when he was in the bathroom or the scoreboard, or outer space while the game was going on. What about the time on the misplayed ball in left when he was rolling around on the ground like its just the funniest thing on earth while runners are tearing around the bases. I've watched him dog it on balls hit to the outfield so many times that I can't count them all. He's turned more doubles into singles then any outfielder I've ever seen. Of course Clemente did that with his arm not by lollygagging out of the batter's box. He is a DOG, although for some reason God chose to give him more hitting talent in his little finger than most Major Leaguers have in their whole bodies. What people don't get is that if he didn't quit on teams, we would really see some numbers.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
I do not have to sell his presence to my team.

He is without a doubt one of the top RH hitters of all time especially in the clutch.

That is all I care about

You embrace his behavior as a pro, would you also embrace it as an amateur..... Just curious

Manny was placed on waivers, so I am not sure he abandoned the team this time, rather they didn't want him anymore or the rest of his salary left on his contract. His last act as a Dodger coming off the bench was getting ejected.

No doubt he by far has one of the best swings in baseball, but without PED's, he is falling apart. So I really doubt that any pitcher would be afraid at this point, to pitch to him, so where he is in the line up is insignificant at this point. I find it all rather sad, if he was smart, he should ride into the sunset now.

Unfortunetly whatever Manny worked to achieve was erased by his use of PED's. I doubt he will ever make the HOF. There is too much doubt now. You can't even compare drinking, which is not performance enhancing, to PED's.

I used to like him, I really did, I admired his talent, even with his antics, but it's gotten old, and now we truely are seeing the other side of Manny.

Next year Manny can take Rob Dibble's place in the announcing booth.

I'm wishing Manny a mediocre remainder of the 2010 season... but that's mostly because my Twins are leading the Sox by 4 games for the AL Central championship.

WIN TWINS!!!

Julie

everything else aside.. in my 35+ years of studying the game there is no hitter I would rather see hit than Manny.. some of his at bats were just things of absolute beauty.

This will stir some controversy but I dont even think Pujols head to head both in both their primes was as good a hitter as Manny... and I am a Cardinal fan.

I hated it when he tested positive for PED's. I hated it for the game because to that point he was one of the top 4 or 5 sticks ever to walk into the batters box.

Mn-mon, I would not worry to much about Manny being with the Sox unless he has improved so much that he can now pitch as the bullpen implodes everyday even against Cleveland. (Except Sale)

That being said I always enjoyed watching Manny hit, not interested anymore as that label of cheat always bothers me. Kind of funny though here in Chicago the same fans that line up to rip bonds, clemons, mac, petit roberts I know the list goes on seem to line up and applaud a cheat when he shows up and might help their team. Sorry I just can't do that.

Even on this web site I am amazed that people compare ped to drinking, hey the Babe used to eat too many hot dogs also but it just doesn't compare.

Did I read one coach here correctly? He is one of the top rh hitters that is all I care about. I am not sure but you might want to leave that line out when recruiting kids for your teams.

Manny is making Theo Epstein look like he made a fanstatic business decision a couple of years ago. Manny helped him make that decision with the injuries to his right, left, right knee. Manny’s contract has become an overpriced hot potato while his production declines. Hopefully for him, he can rebuild his career in Chicago and get himself another sugardaddy contract. As a fan, I loved his production with the Red Sox, and his antics were great theatre. The guy is a HOFer.

How can he be a presence in the line up when he isn't in the line up? 199 AB's this year so far.

quote:

Originally posted by MN-Mom:
I'm wishing Manny a mediocre remainder of the 2010 season... but that's mostly because my Twins are leading the Sox by 4 games for the AL Central championship.

WIN TWINS!!!

Julie

Communism is alive and well in Minnesota...

Let me guess when Manny will enter the Baseball Hall of Fame...it's never.

Manny tested positive for a female fertility drug that is used by steroid users to restore testosterone production to normal levels. Got a nice 50-game suspension for that.

I've always enjoyed watching him play and, like many, have been awed by his hitting ability. But the Manny being Manny stuff would have worn on me if he was on my hometown MBL team.

To Wragg: Never seen booze increase anyone's ability on the dance floor. It just gets guys on the dance floor who never would have gone there sober, increasing the level of regret they feel the next day.

there are multi facets to this whole steroid issue...

You cannot tell me that Ruth or Mantle.. knowing what we do about their personalities, would have refrained from taking PEDs had they been available. You couple that with what was apparently the true beginnings of the steroid era.. in the minors and trying to compete with players from the Dominican who were using plus the fact that these substances were orginally not banned and then MLB turning a blind eye and deaf ear and you have a recipe for what eventually transpired.

I had a former MILB player tell me it was all out on the "spread" .. available for the taking by anyone on the team. I find it somewhat incredulous for any of us to pontificate against it and that we wouldnt have done it in that time and place if we were hitting 220 in our 3rd year of A ball while our competition at the same position on the team is sporting a a .600 slug%.

Do I wish Manny/Bonds/Big Mac/Palmero/Sosa et al had never used them? You bet. But dont forget so were a lot of pitchers they were facing.

quote:

This will stir some controversy but I dont even think Pujols head to head both in both their primes was as good a hitter as Manny... and I am a Cardinal fan.

bothsportsdad,

Are you sure you're a Cardinal fan?

Both Manny and Pujols started at age 21. So all we have to compare is what they did from age 21 to age 30 because Pujols is only 30 years old.

As you probably know, there is no one that has put up the consistent numbers Pujols has compiled in their first 10 seasons.

Here are the current lifetime numbers for Pujols. This is what he has averaged per 162 game season in his first 10 years.

.332 Ave.
44 HRs
128 RBI

His 162 game average would win the triple crown in some years. He also has hit .322 in playoff games.

I watched Manny's interview and as was commented on earlier, Manny needed an interpeter. He has played in the Big leagues for quite some time. Grew up in the Bronx and graduated from high school (this long before ESL was offered in the school systems). Am I missing something here?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

quote:

This will stir some controversy but I dont even think Pujols head to head both in both their primes was as good a hitter as Manny... and I am a Cardinal fan.

bothsportsdad,

Are you sure you're a Cardinal fan?

Both Manny and Pujols started at age 21. So all we have to compare is what they did from age 21 to age 30 because Pujols is only 30 years old.

As you probably know, there is no one that has put up the consistent numbers Pujols has compiled in their first 10 seasons.

Here are the current lifetime numbers for Pujols. This is what he has averaged per 162 game season in his first 10 years.

.332 Ave.
44 HRs
128 RBI

His 162 game average would win the triple crown in some years. He also has hit .322 in playoff games.

PG: you bet! I used to listen to Jack Buck and Mike Shannon on the radio. I was 13 and our summer vacation that year was to go watch the Redbirds play the Reds and I saw Gibson strike our Cesar Geronimo for his 3000th strikeout.

I know Pujols numbers are beyond compare... I would never debate that. But for me when I watch Manny hit I see a purity in his approach that I dont see in Pujols... Pujols incredible power is the difference... IMHO.

Bothssportsdad,

What I can tell you is that Ruth and Mantle obviously didn't need PEDs to put up Hall of Fame numbers and that what has been reported about their behavior probably cost them even greater accomplishments.

You cannot assume that all players would decide to cheat, lie and steal from the integrity of baseball. Drinking excessively and leading an agressive social life is not against the rules of baseball. PEDs are.

quote:

Originally posted by Baseballdad1228:
Bothssportsdad,

What I can tell you is that Ruth and Mantle obviously didn't need PEDs to put up Hall of Fame numbers and that what has been reported about their behavior probably cost them even greater accomplishments.

You cannot assume that all players would decide to cheat, lie and steal from the integrity of baseball. Drinking excessively and leading an agressive social life is not against the rules of baseball. PEDs are.

.. not condoning to be sure... but for example George Sisler, who was one of the straightest arrows ever to put on a uniform, used to put nails in his bat which at the time was not illegal.. should we expunge his name from the record books?

PEDs were not always illegal... you may recall that real start of this was a reporter seeing a bottle of andro in Big Mac's locker. Andro was not illegal at the time. Heck I even used to take andro before a workout when I was in my 30's.. you could buy it at GNC.

Giving Manny credit for Konerko's homer last night is a crock.... Konerko is a very professional power hitter...
too bad we can't get Manny and the idiot from the Nationals that's also acting like a little jerk to join a league in Asia where we'd never see 'em again.

Specifically speaking about Manny. He took PEDs when they were illegal.

As for Sisler, he actually did the opposite of corking his bats, instead hammering Victrola needles to make them heavier. Can't figure that out.

quote:

Originally posted by Baseballdad1228:
What I can tell you is that Ruth and Mantle obviously didn't need PEDs to put up Hall of Fame numbers ........

Ruth may be obvious, but less so for Mantle. Testosterone use was rampant in the 50s in weightlifiting, swimming, etc. although presumably not in baseball. Mantle's personal physician was the man Time Magazine dubbed "Dr. Feelgood", and one of his preferred treatments was to inject patients with testosterone. The most famous of his patients to use testosterone was President Kennedy--we know this from White House records.

None of this means that Mantle used testosterone, but he certainly had the opportunity. If he did use it, he may not have known what he was taking, or if he did, his purpose might have been off-field performance enhancement, rather than anything to do with baseball.

I'll go slightly off topic with an opinion.

Manny, when properly motivated is a hall of fame caliber hitter. Manny, when not properly motivated is akin to pancriatic cancer, quick and deadly to the rest of the body (team). In Cleveland the half life of this radiation was about 6.5 full time years before he got hurt in his last season. In Boston, he was there 7 years but had several bouts of "I don't GAS" that cost several extended times on the DL during key points in the season. In LA it was about 2 years before he decided life would treat him better elsewhere.

Of course he lost 50 games in there for taking steriods, which really wasn't his fault, since the wife couldn't get pregnant so he was taking fertility drugs to "help that along".

In summary, a HOF type player who won't be a HOF player due to his attitude.

If he could've found a way to be a team player, he'd be one of the greats, but he didn't.

I noticed Konerko somehow managed to get three hits today in the first game--Oh, that's right, he's got Manny on deck behind him!

Did you read Manny's "apology" to the Red Sox for his behavior that led to the Trade?

Further evidence that he is IMO, a very immature (dare I say uneducated) individual that really doesn't understand why his antics so offend many baseball people and or teammates!

That's not an excuse, but I think there is more than ample evidence that he isn't the brightest bulb on the Tree!

My College son still has his "Manny Treasures" in a reserved spot in his room. They include; a signed bat in a special Red Sox case, signed ball and his favorite; a personal picture of he, Manny and his wife (we caught them at a local breakfast place one morning) that Manny signed for him. I know that Manny's swing as been the object of study during countless hundreds of hours of Cage time.

That being said, son "says he doesn't understand how he could quit on his teammates."