The perfect game that almost was...except for Dad

Just goes to show ya: Don't call the pitches from the dugout!

(I wish my son's HS coach would let him call the games.)

LL all-stars 5th game of district tournament, son pitching, runner reaches second when cf drops routine fly ball. #7 hitter comes up looks bad on fastball, can't get around on it. I call palm ball, he hits a dribbler through hole. Runners on 1st and 3rd, I tell catcher to nail runner. Hitter swings through 1st pitch fastball but isn't behind on it and catcher holds onto it. Because last kid got around only because of palm ball I call another fastball which results in double scoring 2 runs. We lose 2-1.

We weren't going to win district, best team in nation was in our district but it would have been nice to have played at least one more game.

JBB,
What a bad dad, uh, coach, uh dad.

You are teaching your son valuable lessons, that is to LISTEN and RESPECT his coach, uhh dad.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
Just goes to show ya: Don't call the pitches from the dugout!

Depends on the kids. My ace 13 year old thinks he's too smart for his own good. A particular batter was nowhere close to catching up to his fastball so on 0-2 pitch he shakes off my called fastball and throws a changeup that got drilled.

You're making my point for me, Style: THAT's how they learn!

Look at it this way...the same batter might have gone yard on a fastball. You can't look back, because ANYthing could have happened....no guarantee at all he would have struck that kid out......you made a call, the kid hit it.....nothing to worry about.....you just don't know......

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
Anyone else have a story where you felt your goofed and cost your kid something special?

I wish it were only one of the kids, but it unfortunately happened to all four of them...and it involved these guys...I goofed...I couldn't keep my mouth shut!



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I never had a coach call a pitch for me in little league, high school or pro ball. The doubles and home runs I gave up were my fault, and strikeouts and pop ups were my doing too. I disagree with coaches calling the pitches at any level. The coaches are trying to win the games themselves instead of letting the players decide the outcome.

quote:

I disagree with coaches calling the pitches at any level. The coaches are trying to win the games themselves instead of letting the players decide the outcome.

How else is one supposed to learn? I personally like experienced catchers who know what they are doing

I think it depends on who you have out there.

Most kids need to focus on the execution of the pitch, and they don't need the extra distraction of having to decide what to throw or where. Esp. at ages 11-12-13, when they are just starting to have to deal with holding runners, etc.

If you're good at knowing your pitchers' stuff and how to set batters up, you can teach your pitchers and catchers how to use their stuff most effectively. Otherwise you're leaving them to learn by pure guessing.

Most youth coaches cannot tell the difference between a kid who hasn't got any stuff and one who just throws the wrong pitch in the wrong situation. I'd hate to see talent go overlooked because someone told him to "sink or swim" before he was ready. Give the kid his best chance to succeed and build confidence. And, if he gets hammered, YOU can take the blame and help him to bounce back mentally more quickly.

Pretty much the same goes for how catchers learn.

You will run across kids who clearly have a head for the game all on their own. Turn those guys loose, sure. But they are very rare. Most kids need training wheels for a while.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
then came the 3-hole hitter. I call curve ball, he hangs it, line drive into RF.

Whos to say the batter would not have hit the FB?

Now I would have an issue if you would have pulled him with a batter left. Now that would be a knucklehead move. The rest is a learning experience on all sides and the results are nothing but hindsite.

Dear bbscout...I felt the same way until a local college coach made the following statement to me:

"My mortgage gets paid, we have food on the table, etc... because I have a job coaching college baseball. If you think I'm going to allow an 18 or 19 year old kid to put that in jeopardy, then you aren't living in the real world. College coaches who allow their players to call the pitches (very few by the way) are the guys who already have a comfortable bank roll."

Is it really that difficult to understand this logic?

My son called his own game in HS. In college, his coaches have elected to take the "documented route". Everything is charted, tendencies are developed, and they play the odds with a change of pace now and then. My son has the right to shake it off but he better not get burned because he knows the time and efforts made to prepare for that game. Do position players move themselves around the field? Why does the 3rd base coach give signs? Wins are the ultimate goal and why put that on two guys?

I don't agree with any fixed timetable on calling pitches or not doing it at all. IMO, younger kids need to learn to pitch (throw) first, then once they are ready, teach them how to "pitch". When I watch kids call a game, it often is overloaded with curves/sliders (and yes I know some coaches over used it too). I'd prefer to call the game to keep the pitches mixed up, plus it allowed me to use each inning as a teaching tool.

quote:

Originally posted by larrythompson:
Dear bbscout...I felt the same way until a local college coach made the following statement to me:

"My mortgage gets paid, we have food on the table, etc... because I have a job coaching college baseball. If you think I'm going to allow an 18 or 19 year old kid to put that in jeopardy, then you aren't living in the real world. College coaches who allow their players to call the pitches (very few by the way) are the guys who already have a comfortable bank roll."

Is it really that difficult to understand this logic?

Larry, 25 years ago College coaches had mortgage payments too. What they did not have were pitchers and catchers who had their pitches called in little league, pony league, high school, legion etc. As a result, the pitchers and catchers knew how to call a game when they were 19 and they also are in a much better position to know what pitches are working than the guy off to the side who can't see the movement or break on the pitches very well.

Does the mortgage payment of the little league coach ride on his win- loss record? Or is it about control and trying to win the game himself instead of letting the players win it or lose it.

The coach at Rice came in from a JC program and let his catcher call the game from the get go. At that time he did not have a fat bank roll, but he has gone on to win every year, and what he has done is train them in practice and then when the game starts, he lets them play.

What pitches are there to call in LL ?---all the 12 year old need do is throw strikes

I am in agreement with bbscout with LT's statement. And TR's as well, coach gives the players the pitches to throw, they can learn the progression on their own. FB, CU and an occasional CB (depending on age).
Not sure about younger players, but in HS players should be taught to call their own game, it actually does help in the recruiting process too. Although son didn't do it in HS games, he did on his travel team.
Where son goes to school, experienced catchers and pitchers work without the aid of the coach, game moves quicker and IF a mistake is made, you are responsible, not coach. You catch a lot of grief from it but chances are you won't do it again.

JBB,

I don't see where you have cost you son a special moment, but rather you and your son shared one incredible seven innings as he executed on striking out 19 over 7. Spectacular day for father and son that should be treasured not questioned.

Had you been critical of your son post-game with a hositle rant as to why that one pitch ruined the day, then you indeed would have cost him what otherwise was a perfectly great outing. You did not, instead offering an apology demonstrating that all participants in a team game are accountable. You also gave him amunition to utilize on another day when he feels the need to remind you that no one is perfect, even DAD! That in its own right is worth as much to him as throwing a perfect game.

I wish I could have been present to see Tsunami having a ball.

Thanks for the nice words PCX.

bbscout - I pretty much agree with all you have said. He had control over about 90% of the pitches in this game...he's pretty darn good at it. I made the call on the last batter (for the curve) because the kid looked like he was ready to jump out of his shoes swinging. Its because it was one of the very few times I stepped in to call the pitch during the game that I felt so bad.

In fact, I was thinking before the inning to just let him take full responsibility no matter what...and I wish I had done that.

I told this story just for fun...just being a dad telling a story about my (very good) relationship with my son...nothing else really. I kind of regret posting it to be honest.

No regrets.
Honesty should never be regretted!
Thanks for sharing your story Justbaseball.
Honesty is refreshing and welcome in my book, anytime!!

If you hadn't posted your very entertaining story I think it is doubtful I would have ever had reason to post pictures of the tooth fairy, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, a leprechaun, and Richard Nixon all grouped together. You inspired me!

That is a great story justbaseball...really.

I have a feeling this story will be told at many family get togethers for years and years to come and all will have a great laugh.

I can see it now, "Yup, had a no-no goin and then dad, grandpa, great grandpa decided......"

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
Its because it was one of the very few times I stepped in to call the pitch during the game that I felt so bad.

He might be scarred for life. I think your only course of action at this point is to move him out of that environment to somewhere far away....say Ohio...so he can heal and move on.

On a serious note, I see no harm done and would imagine he'll forget about it long before you do. There's absolutely NO way to assume what would've happened if you had called a FB. Let it go and enjoy it for what it was...an AWESOME day on the mound.

Now back to the move to Ohio...

During the 12yo regular season I also had the Dad of the hardest thrower in the league who was telling his kid to throw more curves while I was telling him to throw fastballs and changes because he didn't need a curve to be effective. He'd thrown a lot of curves as an 11yo and really didn't need to develop the pitch. My calling the pitches probably protected that kid's arm to some degree.

When I did let the kids call all the pitches the next year the overall results were pretty much the same. I did however get a bit frustrated at the 3-1 walks on a curve to the #9 hitter.

It was also interesting recently to hear one of the JV pitchers tell a catcher who in my opinion had called way too many curves/sliders that "you read my mind on the pitch calls". It was also interesting that the pitcher came down with a sore arm and had to be pulled from playing in the field during their next game. That catcher will call tons of curves no matter who is pitching. This particular pitcher has decent velocity for JV, 80-82 on a JUGS, but he was overthrowing a bit to get there and couldn't really locate. His fastball tends to be a bit flat so he needs to throw a fair amount of curves to be effective. Another pitcher throws a bit slower at 80-81 and every now and then drops to mid 70s but has decent movement and locates moderately well. This same catcher was calling 50% curves with a 5-1 lead against the bottom of the order in the final inning after the pitcher had shut down the middle of the order throwing 90% fastballs in the previous couple innings with another catcher behind the plate. Yep, they have to learn sometime but it can be hard on the pitchers if they don't take charge. Fortunately the pitcher did take charge after the first couple batters and finished things off throwing mostly fastballs.

The summer after my senior season the summerball team I was on was facing a pretty weak opponent. Our starting pitcher is coming back from the bathroom about 45 minutes before game time about to start to warm his body up. Sensing the pounding that we were about to put on the other team, his dad tells him, "Derek, you're going to throw a no-hitter against these guys!"

Sure enough, the first batter has a base hit. After we 10-run-ruled that team, that was the only hit he had given up in his 5 innings pitched!

The summer before, we played one of the top 3 teams in Las Vegas. The same pitcher threw a 2 hitter and lost.....both those hits were solo HRs by the same batter, we lost 2-1.

I was just reminiscing and looking at old posts. I decided to bring this one back to the top, simply because some of the posters on this thread and I see this debated here now and then. I believe both points have some validity. When my youngest still caught, his middle school coach and summer coach would let him call the pitches. Not all the catchers were allowed to .

 

All were given a chance and coached when they made an error, which I think is the right decision at younger ages. Sometimes I think, winning is too important at the younger ages. I think sometimes you risk losing to help develop a team or player. If a catcher or pitcher calls a wrong pitch and it costs suns or hits, teach him what went wrong and move on. You will get a better catcher/pitcher in the long run.

Oh and sorry justbaseball, for bringing this up again. 

No prob BishopDad.  I think posting this story way back when...was about a nutty thing I did that I wish I hadn't and trying to help others to avoid my mistake.

 

I've made so many mistakes I could start hundreds of threads! 

 

That same son just finished a terrific college junior season.  And he's still a great person...yes even with my bias I am confident in saying that without apology.  He just is.  He makes me really proud and wondering how he rose above all of my goofs.