Um, it's the off season. Too many big words....brain shutting dowwwwwnnnnnnnnnn!
Goosegg posted:Promissory estoppel would get around the Statue of Frauds. (IMHO)
The other other point (btw, thanks and great analysis on the fly) is loosely analogous to cases under the Uniform Commercial Code which applies only if both parties are merchants and not if only one party is a merchant and the other isn't. I would argue that the player is not aware of the industry norms, and is merely a one time consumer and should not be held to the same standards of knowledge as a coach.
PE is a sounder argument (IMO).
In any event, I Thought I'd throw it out - and thanks for the time!
The UCC analogy is a pretty good one.
Or.........................a commit who is dropped from a program on eve of NLI could just go somewhere else to play.
My guess is that the majority of people on here are not in favor of the "I have just received my 55th offer to play football at Big State U..." But I wonder if kids started doing that in Baseball, would that lead to other schools becoming "more" interested in the kid and opening up potential other options? As it is now, when a baseball kid commits, pretty much all other schools drop him. But what if the kid announced "an offer"? Would that be chum in the water for others or would it still result in other schools stopping recruitment. It seems at least in football and basketball, there are some fallback positions should things not pan out as you have X colleges interested in you (of course assuming you are good enough..) Just a thought..
I don't like it when I see the tweets, but it makes "business" sense.
FriarFred posted:My guess is that the majority of people on here are not in favor of the "I have just received my 55th offer to play football at Big State U..." But I wonder if kids started doing that in Baseball, would that lead to other schools becoming "more" interested in the kid and opening up potential other options? As it is now, when a baseball kid commits, pretty much all other schools drop him. But what if the kid announced "an offer"? Would that be chum in the water for others or would it still result in other schools stopping recruitment. It seems at least in football and basketball, there are some fallback positions should things not pan out as you have X colleges interested in you (of course assuming you are good enough..) Just a thought..
Actually I've thought about that and I don't have too much of an issue with kids tweeting that, although its a little tricky comparing football where there are giving full ride offers in D1 to baseball where the % is going to vary. My thinking is with the schools having all the power and none of the risk, why not let kids put something out there on who else is interested. I'm sure the first couple kids that do it might get a little heat, but it would be similiar to early recruting, once it becomes common practice and every kid does it there isn't much schools can do.
How would you feel about a tweet "Just had a great official visit with Western State U. Loved it!"
FRIARFRED,
Good thoughts, but I think it might create other problems. We might be hearing of kids that can't even compete at their own age announcing they have an offer from some college. The college is unable to make those things public with early commits. Even now some of the commitments are skeptical in ways. We have seen a few early walk on commitments simply based on that is where the kid wants to go to college.
If I was a coach it would confirm 1) That I am right to be recruiting the kid if Western State is; or 2) What am I missing on the kid and maybe I should check him out... I don't know, with all the risk on the kids with the verbal, it just got me thinking...
PG - Very good points. I do see on the PG website sometimes the "commits" that, at least on reported metrics, would be hard pressed to play at the "committed" school. Maybe wishful thinking on the kids part...
I have the same reaction as Go44Dad. I cringe when I see it. We had a 2019 last year that tweeted out an offer from a D1. He's also a big basketball prospect. Now, I thought it tacky, abnormal, etc, etc. However, I have to admit that within a couple of weeks of that tweet (his first offer) FIVE D1 schools who he had been communicating with but had been on the fence suddenly had offers.
I can see where it would be shaky, but I do see how it would prompt a school to ask the kid about the offer and might send the message that they better accelerate their interest if it's real. Having said that, I still have reservations concerning my own kid.
Okay, question for some of you on here who had college prospect players prior to the age of social media: What was the atmosphere like back then? Kids couldn't advertise commitments, neither could the schools. Prior to organizations like PG having their websites, player rankings, and class rankings, how was the baseball world working? What kind of an impact (positive or negative) has the Information Age and social media had in recruiting? This will be weighted as 30% of your final course grade. Please cite your references in APA format :-)
Go44dad posted:How would you feel about a tweet "Just had a great official visit with Western State U. Loved it!"
Isn't there a limit to the amount of "official" visits a kid can have and when they can start?
While I know there are rivalries isn't there also an open dialogue between coaches? Is it really wise, in this partial scholarship world, to say I have offers from X,Y,Z? Is there any kind of antitrust rule against X,Y, and Z's head coaches talking and collectively low balling a kid by design?
CaCO3Girl posted:Go44dad posted:How would you feel about a tweet "Just had a great official visit with Western State U. Loved it!"
Isn't there a limit to the amount of "official" visits a kid can have and when they can start?
While I know there are rivalries isn't there also an open dialogue between coaches? Is it really wise, in this partial scholarship world, to say I have offers from X,Y,Z? Is there any kind of antitrust rule against X,Y, and Z's head coaches talking and collectively low balling a kid by design?
D1 is allowed 5 official visits and they can begin with the first day of classes in a students senior year. D2, D3 & NAIA have unlimited official visits. You can only make one official visit per school.
In D1 baseball, schools are limited and can only provide 25 official visits.
As to your other point, collusion only works when no one blinks. In a world where a coach must win to feed his family, it won't take long for a guy on the hot seat to break ranks and do whatever he must to get the big bat or southpaw to campus. Great idea in theory, but simply no way it would actually happen.
The thing I wonder is how many spots are really left if you wait til your senior year to commit? Isn't the official visit kind of going the way of the dinosaur? I think the OV's would be a blast for the kids but I worry most spots would be filled by then. Also in football due to injury concerns I would think committing early to a school that has a track record of honoring those commitments even after injury would be smart. Am I mistaken on some of these things?
Most schools treat OVs as a "meet the new guys" and all commits arrive the same weekend.
Other schools, especially the IVY's actually use OVs as a final determination or affirmation of a kid. At the Ivy's, during September each weekend sees small numbers of HS seniors arrive for their OVs. The earlier the OV is scheduled, generally, the higher up on the recruiting totem pole.
So goose you are saying OV's are really more for ONE school post commitment. And I guess that is what I am saying. Back in the old days you would really take OV's as part of your decision making process. For some reason I think it used to be three allowed. Though I am no expert on the history of the NCAA! Maybe I am thinking three college days allowed by high school I don't know. But I guess my question is this - is it really possible in this age of early recruiting and commitment to take all your allowable OV's? And in the case of football wouldn't you be wise to commit early anyway? We had a kid this year who had offers as a junior and tore the ACL in our first game! Think he might go juco.
2020dad posted:So goose you are saying OV's are really more for ONE school post commitment. And I guess that is what I am saying. Back in the old days you would really take OV's as part of your decision making process. For some reason I think it used to be three allowed. Though I am no expert on the history of the NCAA! Maybe I am thinking three college days allowed by high school I don't know. But I guess my question is this - is it really possible in this age of early recruiting and commitment to take all your allowable OV's? And in the case of football wouldn't you be wise to commit early anyway? We had a kid this year who had offers as a junior and tore the ACL in our first game! Think he might go juco.
I think football, especially FBS football, is its own animal. If memory serves, I think "committed" kids still head off for OV's at schools on their list. Some committed guys open their recruiting back up (not necessarily de-commit, but just sort of reset). I suspect these recruits get to see the very best the school has to offer when they show up for their OV. As for committing, the really good guys hold off until the last moment and often use the post season "all star" games to announce. They often have a predetermined time during the game when they will announce and receive dedicated air time from whomever is broadcasting the game (caught some of the Army all star game and saw several announcement and this was not the premier event).
Baseball is different, especially for the really good guys, as they generally have committed long before their 1st day as a senior AND other schools are not actively recruiting them. As such, the OV does default to another chance to meet the guys and get familiar with campus.
Yes, I believe that most schools use it as the first "unity meeting" between commits. It's the one time that all the commits come together (they having been recruited individually).
My son did three OVs and turned down the remaining two OV offers. He decided the school based upon the OV. I believe that would not be the norm for most conferences.
Dominik85 posted:Goosegg posted:It's totally unfair to judge a kid's performance when he's clearly not close to physical maturity. Tall players - particularly - take a while to get all the parts working in unison.
The fact that 3 D1 coaches all felt the same way - and they are experts in recruiting - should at least give pause to any second guessing.
Isnt that why scouts use projection? A thin 6"3 player gets more credit for peojection than a 5"10 player who already lifts a lot of weight and is strong and thick
Depends on position but yes, for the big programs it's about projection.
For the big programs it's also about the draft. Can we develop this guy to be drafted in 3 years which frees up scholarship money quicker. So in a program that develops draft players they will offer very early.
2017LHPscrewball posted:2020dad posted:So goose you are saying OV's are really more for ONE school post commitment. And I guess that is what I am saying. Back in the old days you would really take OV's as part of your decision making process. For some reason I think it used to be three allowed. Though I am no expert on the history of the NCAA! Maybe I am thinking three college days allowed by high school I don't know. But I guess my question is this - is it really possible in this age of early recruiting and commitment to take all your allowable OV's? And in the case of football wouldn't you be wise to commit early anyway? We had a kid this year who had offers as a junior and tore the ACL in our first game! Think he might go juco.
I think football, especially FBS football, is its own animal. If memory serves, I think "committed" kids still head off for OV's at schools on their list. Some committed guys open their recruiting back up (not necessarily de-commit, but just sort of reset). I suspect these recruits get to see the very best the school has to offer when they show up for their OV. As for committing, the really good guys hold off until the last moment and often use the post season "all star" games to announce. They often have a predetermined time during the game when they will announce and receive dedicated air time from whomever is broadcasting the game (caught some of the Army all star game and saw several announcement and this was not the premier event).
Baseball is different, especially for the really good guys, as they generally have committed long before their 1st day as a senior AND other schools are not actively recruiting them. As such, the OV does default to another chance to meet the guys and get familiar with campus.
What about injury risk? Wouldn't committing early make sense?
I just posted this in another one, I thought it would make send here also,
Great info Goose,
your quote "You have plenty of time; but the learning curve is steep and begin now"
I think its spot on,I have done a lot with my 2019 like you have stated, I just kind of figured things out, now the hard part of it can be the pressure to commit early, now with PG and PBR retweeting everyday about another kid who has committed to their dream school some kids feel the pressure, now when I spoke to a pro scout he told me to take my time and make the right choice, take the visits and see what's the best fit for your son and your family , don't be one of the kids who picks a school just because of the logo, and then transfer the next year . one thing he did tell me was that him or the other 29 guys(MLB scout) just like him will find my son no matter where he goes to play .
C2019,
The system is made to make the player and his folks feel the pressure, the better programs will definetly give a time frame.
There is one program I know of that invites you to campus and you cant leave without a committment. I am sure there are others.
Injury risk? I know of a lot of players who lost scholarhips because of HS injuries. Unless your son is a stud this can happen.
What about injury risk? Wouldn't committing early make sense?
I don't really have any first hand knowledge, but I doubt a Top 50 FBS football program is going to stick with an injured player if it looks like that player won't be able to contribute. If you commit as a sophomore and get injured as a junior, they may stay interested, but if you are not back healthy by senior year (before any paperwork is signed) then they will politely back away. That is not to say they will not sign injured players, just that they will back away from an injury that might prevent the kid from contributing.
Goosegg posted:Yes, I believe that most schools use it as the first "unity meeting" between commits. It's the one time that all the commits come together (they having been recruited individually).
My son did three OVs and turned down the remaining two OV offers. He decided the school based upon the OV. I believe that would not be the norm for most conferences.
To add to this a player is allowed 5 to a program, the program 5. So these days unofficial visits come first ( your dime) and OV after the NLI on a weekend to come together. Players are asked to come very early to see the facilities, campus, etc.
UConn and the coach getting a lot of bad press....ESPN did a segment and there is an active thread on College Confidential called "BEWARE". Most agree the new coach had the right to change his mind, as he did not recruit the kid, but to reassure him on New Year's and then days later pull the plug is where he went wrong.
pabaseballdad posted:Iowamom23 posted:Went to a high school basketball game last night that in which one team had a freshman, 6'10", with offers in hand from two or three D1 schools. The coach of one of those D1s was in the house. The kid didn't start, and when he did play, played poorly. He had little to no impact on the game. Now, he has a ton of time to improve, and he's only 14, so he also has plenty of time to grow. But I wondered how that coach felt leaving that game? Was he thinking "good choice" or "wow, that's going to be a lot of work"?
All he was thinking was " We'll keep an eye on him, if he doesn't get better. We'll pull the offer".
I dont think coaches base one poor performance on pulling an offer. Thats not how it works, usually.
HSHULER is right at 6'10" it doesnt matter just like the 95mph pitcher not throwing strikes. Its rhe height, its the velo, rhe rest can be developed.
The subject of the UConn coach pulling the scholarship came up this week on ESPN's Mike & Mike show. Golic's take was it was bush league move since the coach (Edsall) had communicated to the recruit that his scholarship was "safe" on a previous occasion. To come back later, 17 days before national signing day, and pull the scholarship was "bush league tactics". Otherwise he did understand the coach was within his rights to renege on the offer since he had not made the offer.
Greeny openly invited the UConn coach to call or appear on their program to discuss the issue. I sincerely doubt he will.
FoxDad posted:The subject of the UConn coach pulling the scholarship came up this week on ESPN's Mike & Mike show. Golic's take was it was bush league move since the coach (Edsall) had communicated to the recruit that his scholarship was "safe" on a previous occasion. To come back later, 17 days before national signing day, and pull the scholarship was "bush league tactics". Otherwise he did understand the coach was within his rights to renege on the offer since he had not made the offer.
Greeny openly invited the UConn coach to call or appear on their program to discuss the issue. I sincerely doubt he will.
I'm sure the coach has more to do with his time than be on a talk show defending his actions. It's not going to help him recruit. Only a small percentage of listeners (Golic and parents who have been through recruiting) would have the ability to understand even the most reasonable answer. It's a can't win scenario.
RJM posted:FoxDad posted:The subject of the UConn coach pulling the scholarship came up this week on ESPN's Mike & Mike show. Golic's take was it was bush league move since the coach (Edsall) had communicated to the recruit that his scholarship was "safe" on a previous occasion. To come back later, 17 days before national signing day, and pull the scholarship was "bush league tactics". Otherwise he did understand the coach was within his rights to renege on the offer since he had not made the offer.
Greeny openly invited the UConn coach to call or appear on their program to discuss the issue. I sincerely doubt he will.
I'm sure the coach has more to do with his time then be on a talk show defending his actions. It's not going to help him recruit. Only a small percentage of listeners (Golic and parents who have been through recruiting) would have the ability to understand even the most reasonable answer. It's a can't win scenario.
I agree it's a no win situation. That's why I have my doubts that he would call in.