The state of collegiate baseball

I dunno.  If I group teams by East/West of Mississippi (thus giving you Miami's title wins as part of your grouping - even though they weren't at the time)...since 1989 the East has won 13 titles and the West has won 13 titles.

While I live in ACC territory and own season tix to UNC basketball - and yes, I am more or less an ACC fan now, I don't think winning 1 title in 60 years is anything close to dominance.  Also, in the last 25 years, it is not true that either the champ or runner-up came from the SEC/ACC, although in most years that is true.  See years 1992, 1995, 1998, 2001, 2003, 2004.

Do I think the SEC and ACC are the 2 best baseball conferences right now?  Yes, absolutely.  And yes, the SEC is the best football conference and the ACC is the best basketball conference IMO too.  But I'm not sure I can concede all that you have asserted on the baseball side. 

JBB, I did say they were champ or runner up every year "except 5".  That does correlate with the years you mentioned.  You had 6, I had 5.  So I can't count. HAHA  No biggie.  I'm not trying to make too big of a deal out of this.  I just think people get sick and tired of hearing about the dominance of southern teams in whichever sport you pick.  All I can say is the proof is in the pudding, so to speak.

younggun posted:

..........  There was a post on another thread that if LSU lost to Rice, that would prove the "lack of dominance" of SEC baseball. 

,,,,,,,,,,,, People seem to get sick and tired of hearing about the SEC.  Sorry folks, the facts are the facts. 

younggun - clearly that poster is asleep at the wheel if they don't see how the SEC is dominant in college baseball today.  Whether people like it or not, it is what it is.  The SEC is one of a couple dominant conferences today.

I don't think it is the baseball or football that people get tired (or annoyed in my case) of the SEC.  For me it is the SEC announcers.....homer city for every freakling game.  Yes, I get the SEC Channel and everyone of them do it.  Case and point the Rice vs LSU regional series.  Ben McDonald and his play by play counterpart go on and on about LSU this and that in the SEC.  Very little was researched or said about the Rice players, family or their program.  After listening to these guys for a couple days, you'd thought Paul Mainieri was going to part the Red Sea, walk on water or perform other worldly miracles.   After a couple days of McDonald and company announcing the LSU region I know I could use a break from that new level of homerism.   So, while the SEC is tops in baseball it is also unfornately tops in homerism.

JMO.

I guess I misread your post younggun.  All good!!

I will certainly say this - the passion of Southern college sports fans is unparalleled.  It makes it a very comfortable place for us to live as we have always been big college fans and have enjoyed going to area college games in all 3 sports.

I won't be able to give up Stanford, Washington or my undergrad alma mater (Cincinnati), but I find I have no trouble rooting hard for local teams in all things not related to those 3 teams above. 

There is no argument that southern/western teams dominate the sport - the misplaced comment about LSU notwithstanding.  The dominance issue is about the weather when it comes to baseball and not so much so for the other sports imho.  If Michigan and Ohio State had the same type of weather as they do in Baton Rouge, it wouldn't be a stretch to believe they would be dominant in baseball as well.

Lets look at SEC versus Big 10 football.  A great Florida coach goes to Ohio State and suddenly Ohio States fortunes change although they weren't that bad to begin with.  Does anyone have any doubt that Michigan will be back on top now that Jim Harbaugh is there?  Nick Saban complaining about Jim Harbaugh tells you all you need to know about where the power may be shifting in football.  Where the heck was Alabama football after Paul Bear Bryant retired and before Nick Saban was hired?  The Big East has a pretty good claim on basketball along with the ACC. 

Generalizations come and go but I believe we can all agree that as long as the weather remains nice in the SEC and the PAC 12, for example, they will continue to dominate. 

Fenway, point taken and I have to agree with you.  Even I think it may be a little over the top to have Ben McDonald calling games at LSU.  How can "homerism" not come out.

It's hard for me to see it the way others do.  I grew up in the south and attended UGA.  Even though we haven't won a national championship since 1980, I would argue with you until I am blue in the face that UGA is a national power in football.  Well, in reality, we just aren't.  But I want us to be sooo bad.  The fact of the matter is everyone is chasing Alabama.  They are the gold standard in football right now, and have been since Saban got there. 

I wasn't starting a topic to argue at all.  The way I see it, you can't deny the facts.  And unless I am pretty stupid, the facts say the southern conferences have been dominant in most all college sports over the past 25 years.

Well said as well CD

Three Big 12 teams got an invite... Three Big 12 teams remain... That's 100% last time I checked... LOL!!

Bolts-Coach-PR posted:

Three Big 12 teams got an invite... Three Big 12 teams remain... That's 100% last time I checked... LOL!!

 

Touché

younggun posted:

While I realize this is a "high school" baseball website, most here are looking for information about their son moving on to the "next" level, which in a lot of cases is college baseball.  There was a post on another thread that if LSU lost to Rice, that would prove the "lack of dominance" of SEC baseball.  I was a little curious, so I did a little research.  Since 1990, a SEC or ACC team has either won or been runner up in the college world series every year except 5.  So in the past 25 years, the champion or runner up has come from these two conferences.  I would say that is pretty dominant and fairly consistent.  Since 2008, the champion or runner up has come from the SEC.  Last year, 6 of the 8 teams in Omaha were from the SEC / ACC.  This year, 9 of the 16 super regional participants are from these 2 conferences. 

People seem to get sick and tired of hearing about the SEC.  Sorry folks, the facts are the facts.  I know sports are cyclical.  For many years the PAC-12 dominated the baseball scene.  For the past 25 years, the SEC and ACC have  been the standard bearer for collegiate baseball.  The same can be said for college football and the dominance of the SEC.  In the same 25 year time period, the collegiate national football champion has come from the SEC / ACC every year except 8, with the SEC winning 8 of the last 10.  One could argue that the ACC has pretty much dominated basketball in recent memory.   

Yes I am from the south and yes my son does play in the SEC, so I guess that makes me a homer.  That still doesn't change the facts.  A team outside one of these conferences may very well win the baseball college world series this year, but that doesn't change the fact that teams from the SEC and ACC have dominated collegiate athletics for the past 25 years.  I didn't look into it, but I would bet the same trend is seen in softball, tennis, golf, etc.

The PAC 12 has historically dominated softball. However, with the popularity of the sport spreading the depth of talent developed is starting to spread around the country. Until a few years ago you could bet on the championship being between two PAC 12 teams. You could count on eight of the top ten ranked teams being from the PAC 12.

justbaseball posted:

I dunno.  If I group teams by East/West of Mississippi (thus giving you Miami's title wins as part of your grouping - even though they weren't at the time)...since 1989 the East has won 13 titles and the West has won 13 titles.

While I live in ACC territory and own season tix to UNC basketball - and yes, I am more or less an ACC fan now, I don't think winning 1 title in 60 years is anything close to dominance.  Also, in the last 25 years, it is not true that either the champ or runner-up came from the SEC/ACC, although in most years that is true.  See years 1992, 1995, 1998, 2001, 2003, 2004.

Do I think the SEC and ACC are the 2 best baseball conferences right now?  Yes, absolutely.  And yes, the SEC is the best football conference and the ACC is the best basketball conference IMO too.  But I'm not sure I can concede all that you have asserted on the baseball side. 

The Big East was a better basketball conference than the ACC until it started falling apart.

Agree RJM.

the SEC and to a large degree but lesser the ACC, they may not be alone but maybe they are at the head of the pack. There are obviously exceptions to the below in both conferences but generally speaking....

1. heavy (massive) investment in facilities and coaches

2. crated and environment where almost any elite athlete will be excepted

3. makes damn certain they pass

4. start recruiting in 8th grade

5. own the best broadcasting network of any conference

6. have very few professional sports organizations to compete with.

Growing up in Big Ten country but now having been on the West Coast for the past 30 years, I fully acknowledge the dominance of the SEC and ACC in college baseball.  I was just saying on another post how amazing it is to see how far the Pac 12 has fallen in baseball the past two years.  Arizona saved the conference from a complete shutout this year, and only UCSB survived as another Western school.  I have several theories to explain the downfall:

1. The college game switched from small ball to power with the change in the baseball to lower seams a few years ago.  Many of the Pac 12/West teams like UCLA, UCI, Fullerton, have been built on pitching and small ball and have not changed their approach to recruit more power hitters.  Many of the ballparks out West are bigger, and our much cooler (and I might add far better) weather restricts home runs (see the MLB parks as well).

2.  Coaching turnover.  Traditional powers Arizona and Arizona State fell off and only recently hired coaches who have brought them back to relevance.  USC was terrible for almost a decade before they seem to have found the right guy.  Now Stanford is going to be changing coaches.  Those are 4 schools who had a great baseball legacy that no longer do.

3. Stadiums and TV exposure.  The stadiums and facilities in the ACC and SEC are almost all much better than the ones out West.  The price of real estate for many of the Pac 12 schools makes it impossible for them to be able to build those kind of facilities, particularly in this era of rapidly rising tuition and budget crisis.  And the Pac 12 made the incredibly foolish to decision to go it alone on the TV network, so none of their games are on DirecTV or shown nationally in many cases.  The SEC embraced ESPN, which not only gives them access, but they gain the huge "hype machine" advantage when it comes to rankings, home site selections (see this year's baseball seeding).  This hurts the Pac 12 in all of their sports--kids and their families want to be able to watch their sons and daughters on tv.

Just my thoughts.  I am conceding the argument on baseball.  I am not on the SEC in football.  Yes, Alabama won this past year but just the year before a Big Ten and Pac 12 team played for the championship after both soundly beat SEC and ACC schools in the playoffs.  The SEC's inability to recruit/produce legitimate QBs has brought the rest of the conference back down to earth, and Alabama is still on top only because of Saban.  But that argument is off topic for this Forum!

All good points backstop.  BTW, I do get the Pac12 network in North Carolina on DISH. 

To me, I think the biggest thing for Southern schools (having lived in CA for 30+ years) is that the fan support here far exceeds what it is out West in nearly every case.  Oregon State and at one time Fullerton were about the only places out there where we saw packed houses for our sons games in the Pac12.  Stanford used to have big crowds, but not anymore.  Someone told me their baseball fan base is passing away - sad, but possibly some truth to it.

Yes, parents like to see their kids on TV, but kids wanna play in a big house with a big crowd as well.  They can find that more plentiful in the South.

Hey I agree the SEC was great, ACC not bad also.    But somewhere else I also read an SEC guy before seeds argueing that the SEC should get and deserved the 8 top seeds in the opening tournament.     There is no doubt they are the top baseball conference but I thought that was a bit over the top and proven so this past wkd.     

A mistake the PAC 12 made was not allowing online subscriptions to the network. You have to get it on cable/satellite. This is foolish given there is  PAC 12 app. I borrowed a friend's (from CA) password to log on. Now I watch on a KODI box. If there's anything you can't get in your area on cable or satellite you can find it on KODI.

JBB, not ASU?  I've heard of big crowds there, and school is so huge you'd think some of those students would be looking for something to do.  We had a walk through of their new park - which is the A's old Spring Training home, and it's going to be incredible when done.

But yeah, it's depressing to see how empty Stanford is on a Friday night when I tune into Pac12 network.

JCG - I think they would be next for decent crowds, but never saw it filled up (old ballpark).  Might have changed for the better?

With their weather and Tempe downtown nearby, they should be able to return soon to the top echelon of college baseball.

Regarding Arizona State, as an Indiana alum, I believe the Tracy Smith hiring is also what will bring them back to the top.  He took a nothing baseball school like Indiana to the College World Series.  That was the first Big Ten school to make it since it since Barry Larkin was playing college baseball.  And had the baseballs had the seems lowered that year, Indiana might have won it all with Kyle Schwarber and Sam Travis crushing a couple of balls that died on the warning track in close losses. 

ASU got a tough draw having to play at TCU, but they went 2-2 and got valuable experience going into next year.  Look out for them next year.

JBB, jerseydad and I had been discussing this recently.

Take a look at RPI and SOS (strength of schedule) and you will see which conferences  dominate college baseball.

I believe that economics out west has affected  their college athletic programs. 

Lack of government assistance for loans to help improve facilities and programs not fully funded will affect  recruiting. Also alumni support, is it as  healthy as it is east of the mason dixon line? Also have noticed that there is a lack of travel to the east,south from the west which would improve their RPI and SOS.  I just dont think that the Pac 12 overall can keep up with the richer SEC or ACC teams.

JMO

Well now with the teams in the CWS I wonder if all of this ACC/SEC talk was a bit premature?

This century the SEC is 15-13 against the PAC-12 in football, and 17-25 against the Big East in football (which ended football after the 2012 season) . . . 

If you want to say it is the best college football conference over the last 15 years, I won't argue. But -- with apologies to Inigo Montoya -- you keep using the word "dominate" and I don't think it means what you think it means.

2019Dad posted:

This century the SEC is 15-13 against the PAC-12 in football, and 17-25 against the Big East in football (which ended football after the 2012 season) . . . 

If you want to say it is the best college football conference over the last 15 years, I won't argue. But -- with apologies to Inigo Montoya -- you keep using the word "dominate" and I don't think it means what you think it means.

Who represented each conference in those game.  I mean if you are talking about Vandy playing Miami or SoCal when they were one top of the world of college football it really tells you nothing about either conference (I don't remember a matchup like that happening just using it as an example).  Also if you are talking about bowl games you also have to keep in mind that you aren't necessarily talking about like vs like (1vs1, 2vs2, etc) when it comes to the SEC's bowl slate.  A lot of the time you are talking about the 4th or 5th SEC team vs the 2nd team from whatever other conference.

Perhaps the easiest way to evaluate college sports is to check recruiting classes.  I don't think many would argue the importance of recruiting in college sports.

The recruiting classes don't always dictate who wins championships, but it does represent who is getting the most talent.  Or at least what is considered the most talent.  

Arguably the best recruiting classes in football, these days, is Alabama, Ohio State and the rest of the top teams coast to coast.  Michigan has now joined that group once again.

Basketball recruiting is arguably dominated by Kentucky, UNC, Duke and once again the other top programs.

Currently, it is hard to argue against Vanderbilt and Florida in baseball recruiting.  But the draft in baseball can change things a lot.  There are several colleges that recruit well every year.  And many of those schools happen to be in the SEC, ACC with the Pac12 and Big 12 next.

It's really kind of simple, some colleges have huge recruiting advantages while the rest have to depend more on development.  Talent is always the number one ingredient in winning.  And most of the higher profile HS athletes seem to migrate to the championship type programs.  So even if a program is down, winning can turn everything around.  See Vanderbilt, Virginia, TCU, etc.

Finally, it is my belief that everything starts with coaching.  There are certain college coaches in every sport that are simply going to win no matter where they're at.  They really are that good!  They have the ability to recruit and develop talent and hire the right people. They just know how to win!  

Because of all the above, most every college sports program has a chance to be a big winner.  The best teams from the best conferences will always be cyclical to some extent.  Even the weak can become strong and vice versa.  That is one of the greatest things about sports.

Regarding college baseball, IMO, it is better than it has ever been.  We just need to create more interest and opportunities for those kids that aren't getting exposed to playing the game at a young age.

Great post PG!

I think TCU is an interesting case.  They break through to Omaha their first time in 2010 and now are going for their fourth time in 6 years.  My guess is the Omaha brand did wonders for their program recruiting and has now pushed them from very, very good to elite.  Also, I think knowledge of what it takes can be passed down to younger players after reaching Omaha.

I am not predicting anything about Coastal Carolina but you possibly could see a similar transformation.  They now have some of the nicest and newest baseball facilities in the country.  Top notch coaching and a wonderful southern location.  Many people (not on these boards of course) have never heard of them.  I think that is going to change and now they have the institutional knowledge that can be passed down to the new recruits on what it takes to play at the very highest levels. 

Luck of course is a factor.  I felt in 2010, Coastal may have out-talented South Carolina yet lost to the eventual national champions in two one-run and heart-breaking losses.  This year, Coastal has gotten a few breaks but they have also created some of their luck by putting extreme pressure on the defense.  One thing they have done is be consistent for the most part by continuing to knock on the door and then finally breaking through.  I think you saw the same thing at the D3 level this year with Trinity University. 

I believe Vanderbilt had the worst luck of any team this year and that indeed is a shame. 

The demographics at the college level has been changing dramatically on the west coast for some time. It is most notable in the UofCalifornia system. The majority of undergraduate students at the major UC campuses are now Asian (largely first generation Chinese). There are two notable impacts; first there is less support for athletics from this community and donations from alumni have changed. Culturally, as demographics change you will see changes in institutions, such as baseball, where there is less support both on campus and from alumni.

younggun posted:

. . . that doesn't change the fact that teams from the SEC and ACC have dominated collegiate athletics for the past 25 years.  I didn't look into it, but I would bet the same trend is seen in softball, tennis, golf, etc.

Over the past 6 years there has been an award (The Capital One Cup) for the best collegiate athletic program, based on the number of NCAA championships and high-level finishes won across multiple sports (with more points awarded for popular sports like football and basketball).

Winners this year will likely be Stanford for men's sports and USC for women's sports.

If the current standings hold, through 2016 there will have been 12 champions, and the PAC12 will have won 6 titles, the ACC has won 3, and the SEC has won 3. No other conference has won one. Past results:

ILVBB posted:

The demographics at the college level has been changing dramatically on the west coast for some time. It is most notable in the UofCalifornia system. The majority of undergraduate students at the major UC campuses are now Asian (largely first generation Chinese). There are two notable impacts; first there is less support for athletics from this community and donations from alumni have changed. Culturally, as demographics change you will see changes in institutions, such as baseball, where there is less support both on campus and from alumni.

Wow, interesting point.  I have seen the demo shift but not connected the dots on the athletic programs.  Explains a lot.  

The last ACC team standing, Miami, is the first to head home from Omaha. UCSB beats them 5-3 in the elimination game.  The SEC is also on the brink as Coastal Carolina beats the top seed and last SEC team, sending Florida to an elimination game tomorrow against Texas Tech.

ILVBB posted:

The demographics at the college level has been changing dramatically on the west coast for some time. It is most notable in the UofCalifornia system. The majority of undergraduate students at the major UC campuses are now Asian (largely first generation Chinese). There are two notable impacts; first there is less support for athletics from this community and donations from alumni have changed. Culturally, as demographics change you will see changes in institutions, such as baseball, where there is less support both on campus and from alumni.

And yet the student body at UCSD, arguably the most nerdy of the UC campuses, just voted to hike their fees in order to possibly move from D2 to D1 athletics.

http://www.sandiegouniontribun...vision-student-fees/

BTW I think you overstate that percentage a bit:

http://accountability.universi...chapter-7.html#7.1.1

JCG he is not far off the 2014 figures for total population (not incoming) is below and they make up the largest single group. It maybe splitting hairs a bit but I think Cal would be the "most nerdy" (whatever fits that description), but he has a point. I think UCLA is the most selective. In the FWIW department and countering his point the Asian's I had working for me in the LA area were all huge UCLA football and basketball fans. 

How bout UCSB beating Miami! Did not see that coming. 

Percentage

Cal 39

Davis 38

Irvine 44

UCLA 34

UCSD 42

http://www.latimes.com/local/e...-20150127-story.html

BOF, by most nerdy, I really meant that knowing several current and recent Cal and UCSD students  it's not uncommon to hear UCSD students, or those who chose not to go there, say or complain that there is no social scene on campus. I've never heard a Cal student say that.  On the contrary, I know one Bear who came home almost every weekend during frosh year because there was so much partying he couldn't get any homework done.  And I agree with you - whatever their ethnicity if you go see the Bears or the Bruins play, you'll find enthusiastic fans.

I'm a current Gaucho dad, so hell yeah, Go Gauchos! 

infielddad posted:

The last ACC team standing, Miami, is the first to head home from Omaha. UCSB beats them 5-3 in the elimination game.  The SEC is also on the brink as Coastal Carolina beats the top seed and last SEC team, sending Florida to an elimination game tomorrow against Texas Tech.

Headline: Miami Suffers Bad Karma at CWS For Hot Dogging And Rubbing In Homer At Super Series

BOF posted:

JCG he is not far off the 2014 figures for total population (not incoming) is below and they make up the largest single group. It maybe splitting hairs a bit but I think Cal would be the "most nerdy" (whatever fits that description), but he has a point. I think UCLA is the most selective. In the FWIW department and countering his point the Asian's I had working for me in the LA area were all huge UCLA football and basketball fans. 

How bout UCSB beating Miami! Did not see that coming. 

Percentage

Cal 39

Davis 38

Irvine 44

UCLA 34

UCSD 42

http://www.latimes.com/local/e...-20150127-story.html

 

 

 

I believe Cal is more selective than UCLA. However, both are very selective. I'm not sure where UCSD fits in. But they are known as a math and science school. A friend,  who went there said (when he was in his mid 20's) they have the ugliest women on earth. He figured these were women who couldn't get dates. So they stayed home, studied and got into UCSD.

Cal has always been more selective, but over the past 2-3 years UCLA's applications have been higher, so I think BOF is right, it's slightly more selective.  Nothing really changed, just more apps came on. Goes to show that admit rate isn't the most reliable indicator of a school's quality.

JCG congrats on UCSB. I am also very excited for them. They are right up the road from me and UCSB and Trinity were the final two programs my son was considering. We knew that the former UCSB head coach was going to lose his job and the combined issue of making engineering work at the D1 level and the prospect of the unknown of a new coach shifted the decision to Trinity. Both programs have now gone on to the CWS and there is nothing more than I would love to see is the underdog Gaucho's win it all. How fun would that be!!!

Yes - JCG congrats!!