Talent sells
Bob
TPM posted:TV coverage and comments has been pretty poor. I thought it was just me.
For the most part they don't know the teams and the players. They read some notes and wing it. I've found in the past regardless of the sport when this is the case the announcers find a few key points and beat them to death. When they're covering your team it's obvious they don't know what they're talking about.
GoingwiththePitch posted:Just returned from the CWS.... what a game it is! If college ball can be marketed correctly, and can spread to the northeast, there is no reason it can't become as popular as basketball or football (well almost as big). I think the game is in a great place right now, especially with the new bats. What I am trying to figure out is how to get more people in the country knowing about it... any thoughts?
Amazon: Going with the Pitch SE
Author of "Going with the Pitch: Adjusting to Baseball, School and Life as a Division I College Athlete" (Second Edition)
BC is lucky to draw 500 to a game. And it's free. This year I went to games to see top prospects and spend a weekend with a friend whose son was playing. College sports just aren't big in the northeast except UConn basketball. BC has trouble filling a 45,000 seat football stadium when top teams come to town.
BC and BU have been long time rivals in hockey. They've won several national championships between them. They are a pipeline to the NHL. Except when they are playing each other it's not hard to get a ticket to either one's games.
From the perspective of my 13 year old, who almost never watches College Baseball but who I've gotten to watch the CWS this year with me: "what is with all this bunting?! Oh my God, I'm going to root for whichever team bunts less!"
If you want to be more popular, that is the crowd you need to appeal to.
3and2Fastball posted:From the perspective of my 13 year old, who almost never watches College Baseball but who I've gotten to watch the CWS this year with me: "what is with all this bunting?! Oh my God, I'm going to root for whichever team bunts less!"
If you want to be more popular, that is the crowd you need to appeal to.
If your kid is a stud hitter would you ever consider Arizona? That's twice in the CWS they have tried to bunt with the 3 hole in the first inning with no outs.
College baseball coaches micromanage the game more than any other sport that I know of. Just let the kids that you recruited do what you recruited them to do, freakin play baseball.
d-mac posted:3and2Fastball posted:From the perspective of my 13 year old, who almost never watches College Baseball but who I've gotten to watch the CWS this year with me: "what is with all this bunting?! Oh my God, I'm going to root for whichever team bunts less!"
If you want to be more popular, that is the crowd you need to appeal to.
If your kid is a stud hitter would you ever consider Arizona? That's twice in the CWS they have tried to bunt with the 3 hole in the first inning with no outs.
College baseball coaches micromanage the game more than any other sport that I know of. Just let the kids that you recruited do what you recruited them to do, freakin play baseball.
I think perhaps rather than asking whether or not your kid is a stud hitter, maybe the better question is - does he want to play for a winner? If you think about it that way, I think most kids would want to play for a winning program like Arizona.
Yep. And I think if they want to play college baseball period they will be willing and capable of doing whatever the coaching staff requires them to do. College baseball for me is the most enjoyable sport to watch. Changing the game to try and appeal to a group of people who simply don't have enough knowledge about the game to appreciate the game makes no sense. To really be able to appreciate and enjoy the game at the college level you need to be able to see the games within the game. In order to do that you must have a deeper knowledge of the game than just wanting to see a Jack, circus stunts between innings and fireworks at the conclusion of the contest.
Many collegiate programs struggle with attendance. Some do not. A program can build a solid fan base. And they can do that by winning. Also many programs are located where sitting in freezing temps is just not enjoyable for them. There are many factors. But nothing is wrong with the game itself imo. It has everything to do with the people who are looking at something and not seeing anything.
Bunting is part of the game. As coach May states, part of what makes baseball great is the game within the game and the strategy that makes for great drama. Do we always agree with the strategy? No, but that's part of what makes it great as well. Play the game the way it's been played for well over 100 years - and that includes bunting and playing some small ball.
Personally, I'm rooting for Coastal. Love to see the underdog do well.
I love that many on here are seeing the Coastal brand of baseball and are rooting for them. This is how they play the game and have been playing for many, many years. What you see now on the national stage is the program's style of play and it has never changed under Coach Gilmore. You can be undersized and under-recruited and still find a home at Coastal. Mike Morrison, Connor Owings, and Anthony Marks are all great examples of that. They look for good athletes who can run and that forms the basis of their recruiting style. Most of all, they look for hard-nosed, high work-ethic guys who are willing to do whatever it takes to win.
Zack Remillard who is one of the leading homerun hitters in the nation has laid down three or four bunts in the CWS that have helped the team win. Coastal has only hit one homerun in the series but they lead the nation in that category. They are also in the top 10 in both stolen bases and sac bunts. I get how people feel they are an underdog (I feel that way too) but eventually you have to ask yourself - are they in fact the underdog?
CD - given that CCU leads the nation in HRs and has only hit one in Omaha - I think thats (more) clear evidence that the fences should come in. Thoughts?
Recent champions (UCLA, AZ, etc...) play the small ball game very well in this park - but I do think the fences are too far. (For the second time, I simply cannot believe I am writing that!!).
I think Coastal is considered an underdog due to Arizona having been to the CWS numerous times and winning it again all only a couple of years ago. Lots of people might not of ever heard of Coastal prior making the CWS this year, but now they certainly have. It is going to be a great game tonight, I can't wait to watch it.
justbaseball posted:CD - given that CCU leads the nation in HRs and has only hit one in Omaha - I think thats (more) clear evidence that the fences should come in. Thoughts?
Recent champions (UCLA, AZ, etc...) play the small ball game very well in this park - but I do think the fences are too far. (For the second time, I simply cannot believe I am writing that!!).
I don't think the park should favor one style of play over another. It should be fair to both the big bopping teams and the small-ball teams, if possible. One argument that I can see for leaving it the way it is, would be that pitching is stretched so thin in this CWS format that if you started adding a lot of extra plate-appearances to each game, there just might not be enough pitching left in the championship series. I don't know if I buy that however.
One thing people forget (me included) - good pitching always beats good hitting. Some of the best pitching in the nation is on display during the CWS. It's hard to be a hitter in Omaha regardless of the park dimensions.
I pretty much agree with you CD. The same format was in play for 10 years or so before leaving Rosenblatt and before changing the bats - and it definitely favored the hitters.
Something closer to the 'full' or 'balanced' game would be desirable IMO. Feels like we're living at the opposite extreme now.
I'm not sure I get the big deal about field size. My son's D2 field was 330 down both lines and 405 to center. Not that much different than the CWS field which is 335 down the lines and 408 to center. How small are the fields you all are talking about?
Baseball is not just about the HR anyway. HRs are part of it, but not everything. Maybe there aren't as many HRs hit in the CWS because the pitching is that much better. I'm sure a team like CC has not faced the level of pitching during the season that they faced in the CWS. Not that the pitching isn't good in their conference, but I'm sure it isn't as deep on a team by team basis as it has been in the CWS. A big part of the reason these teams made it to the CWS is because of their pitching. 95 HRs during the regular season in the Big South doesn't translate into the same ratio in the CWS with all the big teams participating.
And I'm really not bashing the Big South. Just saying the best pitchers will usually go the the big 5 conferences, so the depth will be greater in those conferences... Coastal has done a tremendous job being a smaller school in what would be considered a mid level D1 conference. They definitely don't draw the high profile players as the SEC or ACC or PAC12 would. Excellent job getting to where you are Coastal!! Go out tonight and win it all!!
ClevelandDad posted:I love that many on here are seeing the Coastal brand of baseball and are rooting for them. This is how they play the game and have been playing for many, many years. What you see now on the national stage is the program's style of play and it has never changed under Coach Gilmore. You can be undersized and under-recruited and still find a home at Coastal. Mike Morrison, Connor Owings, and Anthony Marks are all great examples of that. They look for good athletes who can run and that forms the basis of their recruiting style. Most of all, they look for hard-nosed, high work-ethic guys who are willing to do whatever it takes to win.
Zack Remillard who is one of the leading homerun hitters in the nation has laid down three or four bunts in the CWS that have helped the team win. Coastal has only hit one homerun in the series but they lead the nation in that category. They are also in the top 10 in both stolen bases and sac bunts. I get how people feel they are an underdog (I feel that way too) but eventually you have to ask yourself - are they in fact the underdog?
I'll bet most people not affiliated with he PAC 12 are rooting for Coastal. I'll bet fans not affiliated with the opposition were pulling for Coastal and Arizona in their brackets. This CWS has been a great story. It's fitting its come down to the last possible game. Hopefully it will come down to the last inning (when the PAC 12 team wins).
RJM posted:...This CWS has been a great story. It's fitting its come down to the last possible game. Hopefully it will come down to the last inning (when the PAC 12 team wins).
It better... need it to last until 9pm like last night. We have a 5pm summer game.
Well, if I'm gonna miss really good baseball, at least I get to be involved with really less good baseball.
I was with you until that last parenthesized comment RJM 
RE: Big South - no arguments from me. Coastal plays almost a reverse schedule than any other team. Due to their low conference RPI, they play one of the toughest non-conference schedules in the country. They are moving into a better conference next year (Sun Belt) and that should help their prospects come tournament time.
I am a PAC12 fan and STILL want CC to win. Great story about a beloved coach, has a similar line as Trinity this year finally winning the DIII CWS after 20 years. (although they broke through to at least playing in the CWS last year)
I also agree fences need to come in 10-15ft. It is not just the dimensions of the field but the prevailing winds combined with the field size.
I have to admit the CWS has completely spoiled me on the pro game.
Coach_May posted:Yep. And I think if they want to play college baseball period they will be willing and capable of doing whatever the coaching staff requires them to do.
Absolutely! And my son and his teammates are definitely those types of players. But they aren't entertained watching bunting on TV. My comments re my 13 year old and his view on "what's with all the bunting" is merely a direct response to the question "what can be done to make college Baseball more popular", that's all.
Personally, I like small ball, love stolen bases, love the strategy. But I'm 50 years old.
When I watch a college game, I look for the team leaders, on the field and in the dugout.
Usually one or two players, not always seniors, but players who will tell a teammate that he failed to execute the bunt, hit and run, run and hit.
During recent pro draft, a pro scout watched the College dugout. He was interested in one of our former Goodwill Series player that he was planning to draft and notice his positive "leadership" with this teammates. Yes, he was drafted and signed.
It is the "little" things that win the games and Championships.
Bob
3and2 I totally understand I hope you didn't take my post as a slam it certainly wasn't meant that way. I believe much has been lost in today's game the way it is coached. Then players reach a level, it might come in HS or definitely at the college level and they are at a disadvantage. What I mean by that is who bunt's on the showcase circuit? Who moves runners on the showcase circuit? Now don't get me wrong I coached showcase for several years. But the guys I was coaching were Jr's, Sr's in HS who had proven they were guys that needed to showcase. In other words they had something to showcase. And yes we would lay down a bunt, move runners, etc. But now you have 12 13 14 15 year old kids who have never been taught the value of the bunt game, defending the bunt game, 1st and third offense, 1st and 3rd defense, the cut game, how to properly take a primary or secondary lead, how to run the bases, how to defend the run game, proper angles in the outfield, etc etc etc. It's all about seeing who can throw the hardest, who can hit it the farthest, etc - at the ages that they should be learning the actually game.
Some get to HS and still don't learn anything because the coach doesn't know what or how to teach the game. Some do and its a learning curve but that's ok. Some get to college and are in for a rude awakening. When I watch teams like CCU and Arizona play I am refreshed to see guys who understand how to play the game. Last night people were talking about the 3 hole hitter bunting. Guess what every player in your line up is a baseball player and should be prepared to execute. They may not all be on the same level or have the same ability to execute. But they should be prepared to. The biggest play last night was a guy who hit a pop up to SS and busted it to 2nd base. If he doesn't the next hitter hits into a DP. Instead the SS is not at DP depth and the GB scores 2 runs instead of ending the inning.
If you a player wants to watch how they will need to play the game in order to move on then watch quality college baseball. Embrace the game and what it takes to win. The earlier they learn this the better for them. We get caught up in the glamor shots and we miss the real beauty of the game. For me that CCU player who didn't jog out that Pop up and busted his butt to 2nd base well that beats the hell out of a HR for me. Yes I love to see a kid hammer a pitch. But the little things within the game win championships or lose them. I won a ton of games as a HS coach by making sure we always did the things it took no more talent to do than what we already had, better than the other team. If anyone thinks these are the two most talented rosters in College baseball this year your crazy. But they are the two best baseball teams. And its awesome to watch them play the game.
Of course ESPN - Sportscenter , some "coaches", some misinformed parents, focus on the things that are "exciting" and "fun for players." I always believed that winning trumped all that other stuff. And players who understand the game within the game and embrace it are tough dudes to beat.
I will get off my soapbox and get back to work. Regardless of who wins tonight I have thoroughly enjoyed watching them play the game. And yes I am old.
Coach May --- thank you very much for your reply. I agree with every word, and as a Travel Coach myself, you've given me much to think about. Much appreciated.
I do agree that there is way too much emphasis on measurables at High School Showcases. And I often feel like it is an uphill battle teaching the finer points of the game to today's youth. You've got me extra inspired for tonight's practice now!
Playing in showcases and playing on a team are two completely different things. Then you can even break it down between an actual showcase (like going to an individual PG showcase) and playing in a "showcase" tournament. I think we've gotten so jaded by making sure a player is presenting himself to get to "the next level", everything becomes a showcase. Certainly, playing in the summer does. This is part of why I think playing on your HS team is such a great thing. It's more about playing as a team than worrying about showing for the recruiters/scouts in the stands. These guys playing college ball are playing on a team, for a team with team goals. Completely different than thinking about going out there to show your individual skills. And the game is different when you are doing that.
I'm on your side Coach May. This has been some really good baseball.
Coach_May posted:3and2 I totally understand I hope you didn't take my post as a slam it certainly wasn't meant that way. I believe much has been lost in today's game the way it is coached. Then players reach a level, it might come in HS or definitely at the college level and they are at a disadvantage. What I mean by that is who bunt's on the showcase circuit? Who moves runners on the showcase circuit? Now don't get me wrong I coached showcase for several years. But the guys I was coaching were Jr's, Sr's in HS who had proven they were guys that needed to showcase. In other words they had something to showcase. And yes we would lay down a bunt, move runners, etc. But now you have 12 13 14 15 year old kids who have never been taught the value of the bunt game, defending the bunt game, 1st and third offense, 1st and 3rd defense, the cut game, how to properly take a primary or secondary lead, how to run the bases, how to defend the run game, proper angles in the outfield, etc etc etc. It's all about seeing who can throw the hardest, who can hit it the farthest, etc - at the ages that they should be learning the actually game.
Some get to HS and still don't learn anything because the coach doesn't know what or how to teach the game. Some do and its a learning curve but that's ok. Some get to college and are in for a rude awakening. When I watch teams like CCU and Arizona play I am refreshed to see guys who understand how to play the game. Last night people were talking about the 3 hole hitter bunting. Guess what every player in your line up is a baseball player and should be prepared to execute. They may not all be on the same level or have the same ability to execute. But they should be prepared to. The biggest play last night was a guy who hit a pop up to SS and busted it to 2nd base. If he doesn't the next hitter hits into a DP. Instead the SS is not at DP depth and the GB scores 2 runs instead of ending the inning.
If you a player wants to watch how they will need to play the game in order to move on then watch quality college baseball. Embrace the game and what it takes to win. The earlier they learn this the better for them. We get caught up in the glamor shots and we miss the real beauty of the game. For me that CCU player who didn't jog out that Pop up and busted his butt to 2nd base well that beats the hell out of a HR for me. Yes I love to see a kid hammer a pitch. But the little things within the game win championships or lose them. I won a ton of games as a HS coach by making sure we always did the things it took no more talent to do than what we already had, better than the other team. If anyone thinks these are the two most talented rosters in College baseball this year your crazy. But they are the two best baseball teams. And its awesome to watch them play the game.
Of course ESPN - Sportscenter , some "coaches", some misinformed parents, focus on the things that are "exciting" and "fun for players." I always believed that winning trumped all that other stuff. And players who understand the game within the game and embrace it are tough dudes to beat.
I will get off my soapbox and get back to work. Regardless of who wins tonight I have thoroughly enjoyed watching them play the game. And yes I am old.
Well said! Sure wish my son could have been exposed to a coach like you back when he was playing. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and passion for the game over the years.
Here's to a well played game tonight! Good luck to both teams.
Coach_May posted:3and2 I totally understand I hope you didn't take my post as a slam it certainly wasn't meant that way. I believe much has been lost in today's game the way it is coached. Then players reach a level, it might come in HS or definitely at the college level and they are at a disadvantage. What I mean by that is who bunt's on the showcase circuit? Who moves runners on the showcase circuit? Now don't get me wrong I coached showcase for several years. But the guys I was coaching were Jr's, Sr's in HS who had proven they were guys that needed to showcase. In other words they had something to showcase. And yes we would lay down a bunt, move runners, etc. But now you have 12 13 14 15 year old kids who have never been taught the value of the bunt game, defending the bunt game, 1st and third offense, 1st and 3rd defense, the cut game, how to properly take a primary or secondary lead, how to run the bases, how to defend the run game, proper angles in the outfield, etc etc etc. It's all about seeing who can throw the hardest, who can hit it the farthest, etc - at the ages that they should be learning the actually game.
Some get to HS and still don't learn anything because the coach doesn't know what or how to teach the game. Some do and its a learning curve but that's ok. Some get to college and are in for a rude awakening. When I watch teams like CCU and Arizona play I am refreshed to see guys who understand how to play the game. Last night people were talking about the 3 hole hitter bunting. Guess what every player in your line up is a baseball player and should be prepared to execute. They may not all be on the same level or have the same ability to execute. But they should be prepared to. The biggest play last night was a guy who hit a pop up to SS and busted it to 2nd base. If he doesn't the next hitter hits into a DP. Instead the SS is not at DP depth and the GB scores 2 runs instead of ending the inning.
If you a player wants to watch how they will need to play the game in order to move on then watch quality college baseball. Embrace the game and what it takes to win. The earlier they learn this the better for them. We get caught up in the glamor shots and we miss the real beauty of the game. For me that CCU player who didn't jog out that Pop up and busted his butt to 2nd base well that beats the hell out of a HR for me. Yes I love to see a kid hammer a pitch. But the little things within the game win championships or lose them. I won a ton of games as a HS coach by making sure we always did the things it took no more talent to do than what we already had, better than the other team. If anyone thinks these are the two most talented rosters in College baseball this year your crazy. But they are the two best baseball teams. And its awesome to watch them play the game.
Of course ESPN - Sportscenter , some "coaches", some misinformed parents, focus on the things that are "exciting" and "fun for players." I always believed that winning trumped all that other stuff. And players who understand the game within the game and embrace it are tough dudes to beat.
I will get off my soapbox and get back to work. Regardless of who wins tonight I have thoroughly enjoyed watching them play the game. And yes I am old.
I like everything you have to say and felt the same way regarding the kid making it to second on the pop up. To the point I was preparing to save it to show to my son who wasn't home. UNFORTUNATELY, the kid simply got lucky. He wasn't busting down the line out of the box. He was doing the poor me half run to first. It wasn't until about 10ft away from first that he realized (or 1st base coach got in is ear) SS was having trouble. Than he turned it on. He didn't make his luck he simply got lucky! I was disappointed....
real green posted:Coach_May posted:..
I like everything you have to say and felt the same way regarding the kid making it to second on the pop up. To the point I was preparing to save it to show to my son who wasn't home. UNFORTUNATELY, the kid simply got lucky. He wasn't busting down the line out of the box. He was doing the poor me half run to first. It wasn't until about 10ft away from first that he realized (or 1st base coach got in is ear) SS was having trouble. Than he turned it on. He didn't make his luck he simply got lucky! I was disappointed....
I saw that too but I sure as heck didn't mention that part in the group text I just sent out to my program players, completely plagiarizing yet another great message from Coach May.
I really feel badly for both teams regarding the rain delay as it does affect outcomes.
Its really a very difficult time of year out in the midwest. I remember a few years ago a threat of a tornado in the area.
Maybe when they get around to moving those fences a dome would be a good consideration too!
RE: Coach May's comments on the most talented teams in the CWS.....
I agree, if we were to add up PG rankings and/or see who had the most high draft picks, a team like Florida would be considered more talented than a team like Coastal. Coastal beat them in a close 2-1 game and then Florida lost to Texas Tech who Coastal also beat. There are other examples than Florida who are currently sitting at home. Texas A&M and Louisville had all kinds of players drafted highly this year, for example.
I believe there is more than one type of talent at play here. There is projectable talent like Florida has and developed talent which is more akin to what Coastal has this year. Developed talent does not have as high of a projectable ceiling (in theory) as projected talent has. It may however have a present advantage over projectable talent. For example, Coastal had 6 draft picks this year and no one other than Remillard was drafted out of high school. The highest drafted player for Coastal was a fourth rounder (Paez) followed by a 10th rounder in Remillard. Their senior All-American closer Mike Morrison who beat ASU the other night was a 27th rounder. Florida had two first rounders and a second rounder on their pitching staff who all pitched in the CWS.
Many of Coastal's mainstay performers are seniors or juniors who have developed under years of coaching and practice to where they may "presently" be able to outperform the other guy's freshman All-Americans. Anthony Mark's baseball career is over after the college world series ends but I bet most would agree that he is doing something "right now" to beat the other team's higher ranked players.
The other thing to keep in mind. Rankings can help you get a more favored seat at the table. They do not overcome "actual" productivity and/or desire in the long term however. For young players and their families who may not have the high pedigrees and accolades coming out of high school, it doesn't mean you cannot still have a wonderful college experience. Just ask the walk-on players like Mike Morrison, Connor Owings, and Anthony Marks at Coastal if what I just said was true. From the great Bruce Lee: "Talent creates opportunity but desire creates talent."