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47 replies

There must be 101 ways of cheating in baseball

ChapoChapo10+ posts
I'm convince that cheating in baseball is part of the game.
Probably since the first game played.
Scouts say the best players have 5 tools? Well, I say they have 6. How to cheat and not get caught had been left out. And maybe should be the first and most inportant tool.
All these years of coaching, practicing, lecturing my son have been for not.
I would like to change my phylosophy with a little help from my fellow websters.
So... I would like some tips, on how to cheat in baseball, so I can pass along to my boy.
Any one out there could give me some advice?
maybe we can all learn something new today.
Please help.
Thank you.
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H Hoss7410+ posts
Im not sure to take your post serious or not. First of all there are some people in every walk of life that cheat, whether it is sports, school, work, whatever. Now what really bothers me is that you are trying to disrespect the game. People in life are always looking for shortcuts, ie. steroids, cheating, magic drinks. What is even more disturbing that is that you want to show your boy. What a great thing to teach him. Instead of hitting with my son or having him pitch to me I will show him how to doctor up a ball to get better spin. Get a life. To real baseball players and fans, baseball is not just a game, its almost sacred.


"There are no shortcuts in life."
FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
Cheating, lying, and stealing are all a part of baseball.
The number one way to cheat is to have a good work ethic. This actually gives the athlete an advantage that other cheaters have not thought of. You can also do this away from the prying eyes of your competition. Unlike food and water, work ethic generates something that the athlete can store in his body. It really shocks your opponents that you have this uncanny ability to perform.
Number two is attitude. You can actually carry this onto the field in front of your opponent without him being aware you have it. A secret weapon indeed! Attitude alone may not give you the win, but it will surely make you the champion.
Hustle has to be a form of cheating. You appear to be chasing something non-existent. Hustle is an act of chasing that fleeting apparition that only appears to those that have a good work ethic and a good attitude.

Your opponent knows you're cheating when you do all the above to the best of your ability. You are allowed to lie when he ask you: "What are you doing that is so special?" You lie and say, "Nothing". You become a thief in his eyes when you "steal" the win from your opponent!!

Just another point of view!

Fungo

Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
T Tfusa20100+ posts
Can deception be considered cheating. I have heard both sides of the issue. Is telling a runner there is 1 out and really there is two so he wont get a good jump cheating? Is acting like it is a fly ball on a hit and run and in reality it is a grounder through the right side considered cheating. Is not looking as though your recieving the throw and suddenly there it is and you tag the runner out cheating. What about the hidden ball trick? And finally, is telling a runner that there was a foul ball and he leaves his base and is tagged out cheating?

Some not all spectators percieve these deceptions as cheating. What do you websters think of this?

----------------------------
"The price of victory is high, but so are the rewards!" - PAUL BEAR BRYANT
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CM Coach May1,000+ posts
It all depends on how you define cheating in baseball. Me I would define stealing signals, keeping a scuffed ball in the game when were pitching etc etc as part of the game. Therefore it is not cheating at all but being baseball savy. What I do define as cheating is anything that disrepects the game. Such as not having a work ethic. Poor sportsmanship. Disrespect to opposing players and coachs and well as your own. Steroids and corked bats etc etc. Dont teach your son to cheat the game. Team him to respect the game. Learn the game inside and out and always remember no matter how much you learn you will always have much more to learn.
ChillChill1,000+ posts
Fungo

I hope you don't mind...
I just copied your post and changed 2 words...
Baseball to basketball and
field to court.
Along with the goodies I am providing to our girls for tonights game I am attaching the current standings and your wisdom...

Universal advantage....

______________________________
By the time you learn how to play the game...
You can't play it anymore ~ Frank Howard
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ChapoChapo10+ posts
I was just kidding about teaching my son,
I just want to know what really is going on when I'm watching a game.

Here is a partial list of cheating,
1.Athletes taking steroids, How many records would still be intact? Canseco and Caminiti claims that up to 85% of players use it.
2.Scuffed baseballs, from spittballs to vaseline to nail files, you name it.
3.Stealing signs, such as putting a spy on the outfield so they can steal the catchers sign.
4.Corked bats, ask Sammy. Steroids wasn't enough I guess.
5.Lying about your age, such as foreign players taking off 2 years off their real age.
I know there has too be more.
SteveSteve100+ posts
Chapo,
You must be joking!!! You bring up the negatives as there are for any game where people are looking for lightning in a bottle. I am happy to see that there are not a lot of posters helping you on this quest for clandestine knowledge. I would say that speaks for itself that there are still ethics about the game. As stated earlier work hard and accept the rub of the green. Athletic participation shows character,it does not build it.
ChicksDigTheLongBallChicksDigTheLongBall500+ posts
I don't think anybody wants to think that there is cheating in baseball but it does exist. Our high school team has never pulled any type of prank nor have they been taught to cheat.

There were at least two occassions last year that our opponent has attempted to cheat and succeeded.

1.) runner steals third, batter swings and catcher drops ball and slowly throws back to pitcher and third baseman tells runner it was a foul ball. Runner slowly walks back to second and is tagged out. This was deceit by opponent.
2.) Runner on second, pitcher whirls and fakes throw to SS (ball in glove) and both SS and 2B fall out to ground in fake attempt to catch a flagrant throw, outfielder takes off running toward fence, runner starts running to third and is tagged out.
All planned cheating in it's purest form and done by high school teams (coaches).

What kind of coaches do we really have out there? Win at all costs no doubt. What was it that Gomer use to say....Shame...Shame...Shame!

Knowledge is Power! Thank you Mavens and HSBBWEB!
J Jazzman10+ posts
Fungo,
Thank you that was a great post.

One question on this issue, where would you define the lefty pitcher pick-off/balk move? My son is a lefty pitcher and he has been taught to exploit this move until the umpire calls a balk. Is it deception, cheating or just smart pitching. I both as a coach and father say do it until the umpire calls it because it is umpire judgement.
T Tfusa20100+ posts
Just got back from my trip to watch the Auburn series...and yes, Fungo's kid did well. 2 Hr's and I think 7 rbi's on the weekend....pretty good start...and oh yea...he pitched the 9th on sunday and did well...Congrats Josh and Fungo.

By the way....I could not wait to see the responses to my post. I knew I would get someone (chick and bb4life). When you compete in this game and I have, you bust your butt and yes try to give your team a competitive edge.

If the runners are doing what they are supposed to be doing and not drifting off into lala stupid land then, they will stay on the bag until the umpire tells them to return, and the runner will not advance on the fake throw unless he sees the ball. There is what you call gamesmanship out there. If you find someone not paying attention to the game its not cheating...its having a competitive edge.

In every situation that was brought up...if the runner does what he is supposed to do, then he wont be out. I tell my players dont get mad if the other team takes advantage of you not paying attention. It burns me up when people make excuses for players when they dont pay attention and the other team takes advantage of it.

Remember this...PLAY HARD AND PLAY SMART. You can't have one with out the other and be successful at baseball!

----------------------------

BY THE STINKIN WAY....LOL

Chick...would you consider the Miami Hurricanes cheating when they ran that same play against the Witchita State Shockers in the College World Series at first base. The Witchita State player and firstbase coach got caught not paying attention.

ITS NOT CHEATING...ITS HAVING A COMPETITIVE EDGE!!!!

----------------------------
"The price of victory is high, but so are the rewards!" - PAUL BEAR BRYANT

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T Tfusa20100+ posts
JAZZMAN

It is not Cheating. It is like in basketball, players play as rough as the officials will let them. Tell your son to find where the line is that the umpire will let him go. Again, he is NOT CHEATING...He is giving his team a competitive edge.

----------------------------
"The price of victory is high, but so are the rewards!" - PAUL BEAR BRYANT
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redbird5redbird510,000+ posts
Fungo,

Great post, as usual. I would love to meet you.

BB4Life,

You say that TFUSA's examples are cheating and I totally disagree. If the runner is dumb enough to believe an opposing player, then he should be called out based solely on stupidity.

Chapo,

Stealing signs is part of the game. If you cannot hide your signs from your opponents, why have signals in the first place? Part of playing the game involves deception. Pitchers spend extra time play with the ball in their glove during off speed sequences to confuse hitters and then blow a FB by him. Is that cheating? Sending out spies to CF or the like is where I draw the line, though. If you pick up signals during the natural course of the game, use it.

Jazzman,

Every good LHP move is a balk move. Use it or lose it, IMO.

TFUSA,

The Wichita State runner was Phil Stephenson, son of Gene Stephenson. He led the nation in SBs. What a great play.

Those of you who are so altruistic, you are not very realistic.
ChicksDigTheLongBallChicksDigTheLongBall500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Tfusa20:
Just got back from my trip to watch the Auburn series...and yes, Fungo's kid did well. 2 Hr's and I think 7 rbi's on the weekend....pretty good start...and oh yea...he pitched the 9th on sunday and did well...Congrats Josh and Fungo.

By the way....I could not wait to see the responses to my post. I knew I would get someone (chick and bb4life). When you compete in this game and I have, you bust your butt and yes try to give your team a competitive edge.

If the runners are doing what they are supposed to be doing and not drifting off into lala stupid land then, they will stay on the bag until the umpire tells them to return, and the runner will not advance on the fake throw unless he sees the ball. There is what you call gamesmanship out there. .

In every situation that was brought up...if the runner does what he is supposed to do, then he wont be out. I tell my players dont get mad if the other team takes advantage of you not paying attention. It burns me up when people make excuses for players when they dont pay attention and the other team takes advantage of it.

Remember this...PLAY HARD AND PLAY SMART. You can't have one with out the other and be successful at baseball!

----------------------------

BY THE STINKIN WAY....LOL

Chick...would you consider the Miami Hurricanes cheating when they ran that same play against the Witchita State Shockers in the College World Series at first base. The Witchita State player and firstbase coach got caught not paying attention.

ITS NOT CHEATING...ITS HAVING A COMPETITIVE EDGE!!!!

----------------------------
"The price of victory is high, but so are the rewards!" - PAUL BEAR BRYANT


Tf,
You make a good point about it teaching the players to be aware of cheaters. I can understand why you may think it is not cheating, but i'm sorry, it is. I don't care if the Miami Hurricanes do it. Any kind of shenanigans that I described in my referenced post are not part of the way baseball was ever defined in terms of the game or was meant to be played.

Where do you draw the line on this type of cheating? You quoted "If you find someone not paying attention to the game its not cheating...its having a competitive edge".

What if the Miami Hurricanes had spies outside the fence with binnoculars, high tech hearing devices, lip readers..etc and were relaying signs and other stolen info to central command. Your view would ok this as a competitive advantage.

I don't believe baseball was intended to be played this way...sorry! I prefer my sons to play the game with integrity and win with honor. JMHO of course.

Knowledge is Power! Thank you Mavens and HSBBWEB!
L lhpmom100+ posts
Deception, strategy and the ability to fool your opponent are all necessary skills for baseball. If a player's caught falling asleep, he should look in the mirror.
We actually saw Will Clark pull the hidden ball trick on a rookie in a game before Clark retired. It was one of the best plays I've ever seen.
Hey, if the catcher is flashing signs and a player on second picks it up, tough cookies. But if it involves high tech devices, that's cheating. Binoculars, listening devices and employing individuals who are not on the team is nasty and definite cheating. Outfield cameras that pick up signs and beam them into the home team dugout is also cheating.
But fooling the opposition is a very important component of the game.
Hey, if a first baseman talks to a runner long enough to distract the guy into getting picked off at first, that's not cheating, it's playing the game.
This is baseball, not the "S" word game.
Fungo, awesome post!!! You said it best!!! clap greenjump clap greenjump clap
ChicksDigTheLongBallChicksDigTheLongBall500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by redbird5:
Chicks,

Show me where the rulebook outlaws the things you mentioned?


I believe that if the high school coach is teaching devious methods and trick plays that he is instilling the wrong values for the game when he should be teaching skills and integrity. I prefer my sons to live on a higher plane!

Knowledge is Power! Thank you Mavens and HSBBWEB!
redbird5redbird510,000+ posts
Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin


IMO, if you pick up an edge during the natural course of the game, use it. If you are better coached to find and exploit that edge, use it. If your opponent has not been mentally prepared as well as physically prepared to beat you, then they deserve to lose.

If you have to go outside the game to pick up an edge (cameras in CF), you are a cheater.

I am not saying compromise values, I am saying taking what your opponent gives you within the context of the game. If that calls for a trick play (a la Miami pickoff play vs. Wichita State's Phil Stephenson), so be it. If a runner is dumb enough to listen to my middle infielder when he tells him that he is out (and then gets tagged out), he deserves it.
ChicksDigTheLongBallChicksDigTheLongBall500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BBFORLIFE:
redbird5 - I agree with you that the runner is stupid or gullible and should be called out if he falls for an opposing player or coach telling him a live ball was foul or misinforming him of the count or number of outs. But the opposing coach/player is still cheating/lying and it is poor sportsmanship and unethical.


Absoultely! Good point!
applaude

Knowledge is Power! Thank you Mavens and HSBBWEB!
BNABNA100+ posts
Rule #1. Keep your eye on the ball. Seeing the ball and knowing the whereabouts of the ball are extremely important parts of the game. If someone falls asleep, it is not cheating to exploit their mental lapse. It's a mental game. It's baseball.

The rule is introduced to tee ball players at age 5. If they can understand the principle and learn to pay attention, then surely high school, college and pros should be able to understand it.

- Whoever said a walk was as good as a hit, couldn't hit.
B bbforlife100+ posts
redbird5,

For the most part I think you and I are in agreement on this subject. If you read my original post on this thread I only believe the 1st and last items mentioned by Tfsua20 were unacceptable all others were ok. Deception is clearly part of the game and things like pick off moves and stealing are allowed and regulated by the rules. The items I take exception to are when someone breaks a rule intentionally (i.e. Corked bats, steroids, pitchers putting Vaseline on the baseball, over age players in little league etc.) and lying which would be verbally telling a player especially a youth player something that is not true (i.e. a coach saying hey kid that was a foul and the player getting tagged out as he heads back to second after stealing third on a past ball.)

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T Tfusa20100+ posts
Isn't the oposing coach going to be in the dugout....how could he tell a runner what the outs were....? The coach on the field belongs to the runner....he should be paying attention too. As a matter of fact the first base coach for Witchita was caught napping just as was the runner.

quote:
But the opposing coach/player is still cheating/lying and it is poor sportsmanship and unethical.


I am seriously amused by the terms unethical and poor sportsmanship when we are simply talking about deception and players not paying attention. I fail to see where decieving your opponent is cheating, unethical or being a poor sport.

I can see it now....Florida is hosting Florida State...Tordi(FL SS) tells the runner on a hit and run the ball was foul...the runner returns and is tagged out. Coach McMahon(FL) calls time out...and says no - no...put the runner back on second...our guys were cheating and we dont cheat....we dont want to be unethical and poor sports so put the runner back...LOL.

Again....I am seriously amused and yet understanding as I use this quote often...

"you have to have played the game at the next level to understand the game at the next level"


----------------------------
"The price of victory is high, but so are the rewards!" - PAUL BEAR BRYANT
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B bbforlife100+ posts
Tfusa20 I understand that in your hypothetical situation the runner would be out and there is no way the opposing coach would try to correct the situation that just does not happen. Also as I have stated I have no problem with deception such as pretending a ball is over thrown at 1st in order to get the runner to head to second. So let me repeat what I do have a problem with is breaking rules intentionally (i.e. Corked bats, steroids, pitchers putting Vaseline on the baseball, over age players in little league etc.) and lying which would be verbally telling a player especially a youth player something that is not true (i.e. a coach saying hey kid that was a foul and the player getting tagged out as he heads back to second after reaching third on a past ball.)

Let me give you a business analogy - If I am a renowned developer of theme parks and I keep it a secret that I am buying land in an area by having others buy land for me so the word doesn't get out and the price sky rocket that is a completely ethical form of deception. However if I am stock broker and I know a company has problems and I go on TV shows telling people this is a great company just so the price will go up and I can dump my holdings that is lying and unethical.
B bbforlife100+ posts
Redbird and Tfusa,

When someone on this website has a difference of opinion why does it commonly end with a personal attack (i.e. your quote). Please remember just because someone has a varying opinion that does not make them ignorant.

But as long as we are throwing quotes around here is one I like a little better.

"Baseball lives at the center of a never-flagging whirl of irreconcilable opinions."- Leo Durocher

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