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Things I don't understand:

CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"

I don't understand Coaches who don't want to talk to their players at the HS and/or college level.  I do understand those same coaches not wanting to talk to parents.

 

I don't understand how coaches can not have a system of communication established at the HS/College level to communicate with parents.  I agree that college coaches almost always are unapproachable but that doesn't mean that they don't need a way to communicate with parents.  My child's coach sends out a handout outlining everything.  I think he is more organized than most.  My child was recently hurt.  He came over after the game with the trainer to talk to my wife and I.  For HS Coaches, you have to communicate with parents.  As I've outlined several times, I wanted the AD involved and the player of the parents to be in the meeting.  However, I didn't have a problem after that with having the meeting.

 

I don't understand some parents rooting against other players on the same team.  Yes, there are some players that might not be your pick for BBFs for your child.  Still, they are on the team.  At the same time, they only root for their child.  As I have often stated, many parents would rather their child be All State than to win state. 

 

I don't understand why HS Coaches have to be fundraisers.  That has evolved into a critical part of the job.  In fact, I know of coaches who have been asked in interviews just how they will raise money and how much they can raise.  I'm a coach and not a fundraiser. 

 

I don't understand why some Umpires have to be "the show."  This trend seems to be developing more and more.  I know tremendous umpires and am friends with most.  They are never noticed.  Most of them get state tournament games and there is a reason for that.  Now, we seem to have these guys doing crazy stuff.  One example that I saw the other day was a fly ball to right and the right fielder catches the ball.  Takes a couple of steps before crashing in to the fence.  The plate umpire steps out on the catch in front of the plate, raisers his right arm and declares the out.  He does so loudly and dramatically.  The other team had runners on the move and so, one crossed the plate.  The other was somewhere rounding 3rd.  As the RF hit the fence, the ball fell out.  I believe it to be a catch.  The plate umpire screams out no catch.  The defensive team was headed off of the field and the base-runner rounding 3rd never touched home plate.  Home plate umpire does not know this and base umpire does not know this and so, run is counted.  In short, this was a debacle.  Why? 

 

I'll leave this open and some others can contribute some things that they don't understand. 

"Failure depends upon people who say I can't."  - my dad's quote July 1st, 2021.  CoachB25 = Cannonball for other sites.

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piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts

coach....

 

I don't expect you to know umpire mechanics, but you should be familiar with them at a minimum........and  definitely you should know what rules regarding what a catch is.....

 

Umpire Mechanic:

 

With Runners on base, the base umpire is inside the diamond....in 2 man mechanics, the Home plate umpire has fair/foul....Catch/no catch responsibility on balls hit to right field.......The base umpire has tag up responsibility........the HP umpire will loudly signal catch (by voice and gesture) to let the BU know the ball has been touched so the base umpire can adjudge if the base runner left early........

 

As to a Catch....

 

NFHS rule 2-9 article 1(condensed)

A catch is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a live ball in flight and firmly holding it. The catch of a fly ball is not completed until the continuing action of the catch is completed. A fielder who catches a ball and then runs into a wall or another fielder and drops the ball has NOT made a catch...

 

NO catch......the HPU then should signal and declare "no catch".......

 

It doesn't matter that you thought it was a catch, the rule books states it isnt a catch and the HPU declared it no catch... a dropped fly ball eliminates any need to tag up....so the runs should count.......

 

As a coach you have 3 weapons, your offense, your defense AND the rules......not be as versed as you should in the rules puts you and your team at a disadvantage......

 

Last edited by piaa_ump
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"

piaa, I do know the mechanics.  I understand that the umpire was to vocal and signal.  However, my problem was with his animation and then change his call. The defense was leaving the field, no one was watching the runner going around 3rd and the umpires did not know that home plate was not touched by the second runner.  In fact, a photographer came over yelling (nice way and not rudely that she had pictures of the runner headed to the dugout.)  I know that they could not be used but there was evidence of what we stated.   

 

So, your statement in defending this action is that it is ok for umpires to vocally and dramatically declare outs and then change their calls even though they have placed the defense at a disadvantage and given the offense an advantage.  This was not bang bang, some steps were taken and the defense and base runners were leaving the field.  Call changed so late that the other umpire was no longer watching the action.  Always good to know though. 

 

Edited to add: 

On this play, there was no reason to anticipate a fielder running into the fence.  It was not a crash but rather glove and other hand bracing after a good running catch.

Last edited by CoachB25
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
Originally Posted by CoachB25:

piaa, I do know the mechanics.  I understand that the umpire was to vocal and signal.  However, my problem was with his animation and then change his call. The defense was leaving the field, no one was watching the runner going around 3rd and the umpires did not know that home plate was not touched by the second runner.  In fact, a photographer came over yelling (nice way and not rudely that she had pictures of the runner headed to the dugout.)  I know that they could not be used but there was evidence of what we stated.   

 

So, your statement in defending this action is that it is ok for umpires to vocally and dramatically declare outs and then change their calls even though they have placed the defense at a disadvantage and given the offense an advantage.  This was not bang bang, some steps were taken and the defense and base runners were leaving the field.  Call changed so late that the other umpire was no longer watching the action.  Always good to know though. 

 

Edited to add: 

On this play, there was no reason to anticipate a fielder running into the fence.  It was not a crash but rather glove and other hand bracing after a good running catch.

I'm not saying you didn't have a mess on your hands, or an "animated" umpire, but there are solid reasons for the calls (vocal and signal)....it doesn't matter that the fielder took a few steps prior to running into the wall, by rule he didn't catch it.....as to changing the call, timing in this case is crucial, but he got the call right by rule....

 

(your edit is not supported by your original post, which states he crashed into the wall and as the runner hit the fence the ball came out....) 

 

The fact that the resulting action was a mess is a separate issue and well could have been handled better.

 

roothog66roothog6610,000+ posts
Originally Posted by CoachB25:

piaa, I do know the mechanics.  I understand that the umpire was to vocal and signal.  However, my problem was with his animation and then change his call. The defense was leaving the field, no one was watching the runner going around 3rd and the umpires did not know that home plate was not touched by the second runner.  In fact, a photographer came over yelling (nice way and not rudely that she had pictures of the runner headed to the dugout.)  I know that they could not be used but there was evidence of what we stated.   

 

So, your statement in defending this action is that it is ok for umpires to vocally and dramatically declare outs and then change their calls even though they have placed the defense at a disadvantage and given the offense an advantage.  This was not bang bang, some steps were taken and the defense and base runners were leaving the field.  Call changed so late that the other umpire was no longer watching the action.  Always good to know though. 

 

Edited to add: 

On this play, there was no reason to anticipate a fielder running into the fence.  It was not a crash but rather glove and other hand bracing after a good running catch.

That photographer was way overstepping bounds. Been there and had this kind of thing cost me. I was the photographer at AL state tournament in Florida about 10 or 12 years ago. There was a play at first where 1B came off bag and tried to apply tag. This was two outs in the top of the last regulation inning with a tie and the go ahead run crossing the plate . Ump declare him safe, saying he had not made the tag. This was one of my first tourneys with a digital camera and I just had to show 1b coach my beautiful shot of the first basman's mitt dug into the runners ribs. The fielding teams coach came out of the dugout to take a look. Coach grabbed my camera, stormed the plate umpire screaming at him to look at the shot. Coach stayed in the game and I was ejected from the field.

Last edited by roothog66
J HJ H5,000+ posts
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by CoachB25:

piaa, I do know the mechanics.  I understand that the umpire was to vocal and signal.  However, my problem was with his animation and then change his call. The defense was leaving the field, no one was watching the runner going around 3rd and the umpires did not know that home plate was not touched by the second runner.  In fact, a photographer came over yelling (nice way and not rudely that she had pictures of the runner headed to the dugout.)  I know that they could not be used but there was evidence of what we stated.   

 

So, your statement in defending this action is that it is ok for umpires to vocally and dramatically declare outs and then change their calls even though they have placed the defense at a disadvantage and given the offense an advantage.  This was not bang bang, some steps were taken and the defense and base runners were leaving the field.  Call changed so late that the other umpire was no longer watching the action.  Always good to know though. 

 

Edited to add: 

On this play, there was no reason to anticipate a fielder running into the fence.  It was not a crash but rather glove and other hand bracing after a good running catch.

That photographer was way overstepping bounds. Been there and had this kind of thing cost me. I was the photographer at AL state tournament in Florida about 10 or 12 years ago. There was a play at first where 1B came off bag and tried to apply tag. This was two outs in the top of the last regulation inning with a tie and the go ahead run crossing the plate . Ump declare him safe, saying he had not made the tag. This was one of my first tourneys with a digital camera and I just had to show 1b coach my beautiful shot of the first basman's mitt dug into the runners ribs. Coach grabbed my camera, stormed the plate umpire screaming at him to look at the shot. Coach stayed in the game and I was ejected from the field.

 

The umpire ejected you for taking a picture? Huh?

 

piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts

Umpires cant use video or photos to make calls in NFHS rules....we get one shot at game speed to make the call, or in some cases a conference with our partner period....

 

In this photographer issue, the first base coach could possibly have been ejected, and the umpire should realize that our authority is inside the fence and not outside it...

roothog66roothog6610,000+ posts

I'm not sure what the ump thought I actually did, but he didn't appreciate the uproar and simply told me, "I want you off my field now!" I guess he thought I had stirred up the controversy. And, yes, he correctly refused to look at the photo. Over the years, I have taken several shots that definitively proved a call to be either right or wrong. More so the former. I have learned to just keep it to myself and let the coach discover it himself later.

C cabbagedadHSBaseballWeb member since 2011
Originally Posted by piaa_ump:
....it doesn't matter that the fielder took a few steps prior to running into the wall, by rule he didn't catch it.....as to changing the call, timing in this case is crucial, but he got the call right by rule.......

 

 

In an effort to keep with the OP's original topic - I don't understand at what point this becomes a catch.  Piaa, what is the definitive "line in the sand"?  IOW, if the OF took ten steps after catch and clearly was under control but then stopped his momentum at the wall and the ball fell out, that would obviously be a catch (in my mind anyway).  What terminology or ruling do you use to judge something in between?

Last edited by cabbagedad
J HJ H5,000+ posts

I don't understand why coaches continue to have players (most usually, pitchers) run distance, ever. This has been discussed, dissected and, quite frankly, overwhelmingly proven counterproductive, so many times in the last decade. However, I still find many coaches at the amateur level employing it. It confuses me why a coach would do something that has no benefit to his player(s) or his team.

 

I also don't understand why coaches sacrifice bunt SO much. I understand the benefits in some situations - especially when pertaining to the defensive volatility at the amateur levels. However, sac bunting is far overused by many coaches. I'll never quite understand why it's considered a good strategy to give up outs when, in the majority of game circumstances, it is statistically disadvantageous. I was in attendance at a game between two very well-respected college baseball programs. The visiting team was ahead by three runs in the 5th inning, with runners on 1st and 2nd. The #3 hitter (the team's best prospect), proceeded to sacrifice bunt. The #4 hitter then laid down a safety squeeze. Given the run expectancy of the situation is higher with 1st and 2nd and 0 outs, and the team's best hitters were at the plate, I was dumbfounded at the concept of playing for one run in this situation.

 

I will say, however, that bunting bothers me far less than distance running. Bunting doesn't hinder a player's ability to better himself as a player. Distance running does. I know this topic has been brought up here before, and I know some people express the opposite opinion. I feel VERY strongly, however, about this topic…and have never seen a single shred of evidence that says distance running is beneficial for a baseball player.

 

 

 

Last edited by J H
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"

I didn't have my pitchers run distance.  I had them run hills and not long distance uphill.  I wanted them to drive for the first four or five steps and then get to the top.  It was marked so everyone knew the distance.  I still see a lot of distance running at the HS level.

 

I like the bunting game and like it because I can put a lot of pressure on defenses.  One school in our conference won a state title bunting their opponents to death.  Amazing how much they bunted.  We would spend a few practices each year preparing for the bunt.  My assistant hated those practices. 

piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
Originally Posted by cabbagedad:
Originally Posted by piaa_ump:
....it doesn't matter that the fielder took a few steps prior to running into the wall, by rule he didn't catch it.....as to changing the call, timing in this case is crucial, but he got the call right by rule.......

 

 

In an effort to keep with the OP's original topic - I don't understand at what point this becomes a catch.  Piaa, what is the definitive "line in the sand"?  IOW, if the OF took ten steps after catch and clearly was under control but then stopped his momentum at the wall and the ball fell out, that would obviously be a catch (in my mind anyway).  What terminology or ruling do you use to judge something in between?

you have to go back to the continued wording in the rule book...

 

NFHS rule 2-9 art 1

 

When the fielder, by his action of stopping, removing the ball from his glove, etc, signifies the initial action is completed and then drops the ball, it would be considered a catch.

 

Umpire judgment then prevails as to when he transitions to the next phase

Back foot sliderBack foot slider1,000+ posts

JH; +1 on the distance running...had an argument with a HS coach (not my son's) this past Fall regarding this.  Baseball instruction, in many ways, is stuck in the "old days", or better yet the - "because this is what we have always done" days!

 

I don't understand the trend (hopefully not too much so) of boys Varsity baseball dugouts "chanting" loudly in unison to rile up the opposing pitcher.  Not only bad sportsmanship, but shows a lack in your own self confidence that you can succeed based on talent alone.  I am aware that you can hear this from the stands in MLB games, or the stands of HS teams for that matter, but coming from the dugout drives me nuts.

 

I don't understand HS coaches that have little to no regard for pitcher's safety.  In no less than 3 different game in our early season, we have seen opposing pitchers throw over 130 pitches.  These obviously were not spread over 9 innings, but rather grinding 6-7 inning games.  I thank God we have a HS coach at my son's school that does not place winning, above safety.

 

 

Last edited by Back foot slider
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"

Back foot slider, I agree on the overthrowing.  In all the time I was a HC, I only had one throw over 105 pitches.  That pitcher threw 120. I got a pitch count each inning and the person that gave it to me added wrong.  As soon as I found out, I took him out.  Like you said, these are not 9 inning ball games.  So, if they are hitting 130,  there were some tough innings in there. 

JCGJCGStill working on a clever handle

RE Bunting: My kid's HS coach bunts a LOT, anywhere in the lineup. With runner on 1st and no outs, I like it.  Yes, it puts pressure on the defense, and if the batter is quick his chances of reaching first safely are probably not a whole lot less than they would be if he hit away. And he'll call for the always controversial "butcher boy" in the same situation next time, and that adds even more pressure.

 

He will also bunt with nobody out and runner on second.  Not crazy about this one,  especially in the heart of the order.  Seems like he's giving up his chance of a big inning and playing for a single run to score on a sac fly. 

 

And, he will also bunt with 1 out and man on second.  I HATE this one.  It means you're hoping to score on a passed ball?   I do not get it.

Last edited by JCG
Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
Originally Posted by CoachB25:

 

I like the bunting game and like it because I can put a lot of pressure on defenses.  One school in our conference won a state title bunting their opponents to death.  Amazing how much they bunted.  We would spend a few practices each year preparing for the bunt.  My assistant hated those practices. 

I'm sure the future MLB pitcher who also played short stop had nothing to do with that state title  

 

And I think EVERY school in the conference spends time practicing covering the bunt before they meet that team. I know we sure did! 

jp24jp245,000+ posts

There's much I don't understand, so thanks for asking, CoachB.

  • I don't understand why it should cost a silly $8 to buy the NFHS Rule Book in an era of online pdfs.
  • I don't understand much of anything about how the NCAA handles baseball players.
  • I don't understand why so many HS parents have no clue about how good their son is or isn't, yet brag incessantly -- when sites like this exist.
  • I don't understand why PG is so heavily invested in the southeast, when California produces so many great ball players.
  •  I don't understand why some schools overcharge for concessions, and end up making less money that they could,
  • I don't understand why so few black athletes find HS baseball attractive.
ShelbyShelby1,000+ posts
Originally Posted by J H:

       

I don't understand why coaches continue to have players (most usually, pitchers) run distance, ever. This has been discussed, dissected and, quite frankly, overwhelmingly proven counterproductive, so many times in the last decade. However, I still find many coaches at the amateur level employing it. It confuses me why a coach would do something that has no benefit to his player(s) or his team.

 

I also don't understand why coaches sacrifice bunt SO much. I understand the benefits in some situations - especially when pertaining to the defensive volatility at the amateur levels. However, sac bunting is far overused by many coaches. I'll never quite understand why it's considered a good strategy to give up outs when, in the majority of game circumstances, it is statistically disadvantageous. I was in attendance at a game between two very well-respected college baseball programs. The visiting team was ahead by three runs in the 5th inning, with runners on 1st and 2nd. The #3 hitter (the team's best prospect), proceeded to sacrifice bunt. The #4 hitter then laid down a safety squeeze. Given the run expectancy of the situation is higher with 1st and 2nd and 0 outs, and the team's best hitters were at the plate, I was dumbfounded at the concept of playing for one run in this situation.

 

I will say, however, that bunting bothers me far less than distance running. Bunting doesn't hinder a player's ability to better himself as a player. Distance running does. I know this topic has been brought up here before, and I know some people express the opposite opinion. I feel VERY strongly, however, about this topic…and have never seen a single shred of evidence that says distance running is beneficial for a baseball player.

 

 

 


       


JH,
I thought that I had understood you to feel that way about Pitcher's running. But, are you saying all baseball players?

Regarding bunting / SAC's, overheard son discussing some of his College Coach's baseball philosophy about bunting of any kind...It is NOT allowed! He feels that if they have to resort to bunting, then he didn't do a very good job of recruiting!  Guess one player tried it. He didn't do it again!
ShelbyShelby1,000+ posts
Originally Posted by CoachB25:

       

I didn't have my pitchers run distance.  I had them run hills and not long distance uphill.  I wanted them to drive for the first four or five steps and then get to the top.  It was marked so everyone knew the distance.  I still see a lot of distance running at the HS level.

 

I like the bunting game and like it because I can put a lot of pressure on defenses.  One school in our conference won a state title bunting their opponents to death.  Amazing how much they bunted.  We would spend a few practices each year preparing for the bunt.  My assistant hated those practices. 


       

Son's H.S. Varsity Coach, had the reputation,  that if you couldn't lay down a perfect bunt, you wouldn't play for him. Ability to steal bases was also high on his list of requirements. But, he made everyone run & run.
J HJ H5,000+ posts
Originally Posted by Smitty28:
Originally Posted by J H:

 I feel VERY strongly, however, about this topic…and have never seen a single shred of evidence that says distance running is beneficial for a baseball player.

 

 

And the evidence that distance running hinders a players ability to better himself is…?

 

http://community.hsbaseballweb...792#2982475077798792

 

I've never seen anything that says different.

 

ShelbyShelby1,000+ posts
Originally Posted by J H:

       
Originally Posted by Smitty28:
Originally Posted by J H:
I feel VERY strongly, however, about this topic…and have never seen a single shred of evidence that says distance running is beneficial for a baseball player.


And the evidence that distance running hinders a players ability to better himself is…?

http://community.hsbaseballweb...792#2982475077798792

I've never seen anything that says different.


       


Again Josh,
Pitcher's or all Baseball players, regarding running?
Last edited by Shelby
J HJ H5,000+ posts
Originally Posted by Shelby:
Originally Posted by J H:

       
Originally Posted by Smitty28:
Originally Posted by J H:

 I feel VERY strongly, however, about this topic…and have never seen a single shred of evidence that says distance running is beneficial for a baseball player.

 

 

And the evidence that distance running hinders a players ability to better himself is…?

 

http://community.hsbaseballweb...792#2982475077798792

 

I've never seen anything that says different.

 


       


Again Josh,
Pitcher's or all Baeball players, regarding running?

 

All baseball players. Baseball is a sport that requires short bursts of maximum energy. Distance running prohibits the body from maximizing the energy available in such a manner. At no point in time will a baseball player be required to use his body in the same manner that distance running requires. 

 

Last edited by J H
O old_school10,000+ posts

Trying to stay on topic of the thread…I don’t understand

 

How some parents can look at the abilities of their child and still be pissed about not starting

How some parents can be the parent of a great talent but not be able to see it takes a team to win

How some HS programs can be so short sighted to the big picture of youth baseball in the world today

How many umpires know the rules but lack common sense to implement them properly.

How the hell we can be in the last days of March and there is still snow on the ground in places and 20 degrees every morning when I wake up in the morning!!! Everyone please let the engine in the car run all day and lets warm this damn planet up!!!!

coach3coach3100+ posts
Originally Posted by old_school:

Trying to stay on topic of the thread…I don’t understand

 

How some parents can look at the abilities of their child and still be pissed about not starting

How some parents can be the parent of a great talent but not be able to see it takes a team to win

How some HS programs can be so short sighted to the big picture of youth baseball in the world today

How many umpires know the rules but lack common sense to implement them properly.

How the hell we can be in the last days of March and there is still snow on the ground in places and 20 degrees every morning when I wake up in the morning!!! Everyone please let the engine in the car run all day and lets warm this damn planet up!!!!

Global cooling my friend...

F FoxDad10,000+ posts
Originally Posted by old_school:

Trying to stay on topic of the thread…I don’t understand

 


How the hell we can be in the last days of March and there is still snow on the ground in places and 20 degrees every morning when I wake up in the morning!!! Everyone please let the engine in the car run all day and lets warm this damn planet up!!!!

 

Whoever is doing the Snow Dance, PLEASE STOP!!!!!!

S Smitty2810,000+ posts
Originally Posted by J H:
Originally Posted by Smitty28:
Originally Posted by J H:

 I feel VERY strongly, however, about this topic…and have never seen a single shred of evidence that says distance running is beneficial for a baseball player.

 

 

And the evidence that distance running hinders a players ability to better himself is…?

 

http://community.hsbaseballweb...792#2982475077798792

 

I've never seen anything that says different.

 

Thanks for posting those - some interesting info in there (particularly example 5).  They clearly indicate that including interval training helps speed and power, although the way the tests are designed I don't see evidence that endurance training has a negative effect, but I see your point.

J HJ H5,000+ posts
Originally Posted by Smitty28:
Originally Posted by J H:
Originally Posted by Smitty28:
Originally Posted by J H:

 I feel VERY strongly, however, about this topic…and have never seen a single shred of evidence that says distance running is beneficial for a baseball player.

 

 

And the evidence that distance running hinders a players ability to better himself is…?

 

http://community.hsbaseballweb...792#2982475077798792

 

I've never seen anything that says different.

 

Thanks for posting those - some interesting info in there (particularly example 5).  They clearly indicate that including interval training helps speed and power, although the way the tests are designed I don't see evidence that endurance training has a negative effect, but I see your point.

 

Cressey has some great info on this. Endurance running trains the muscles to perform in a different way than is optimal for baseball. That, in and of itself, is inefficient, and therefore is negative in training for the sport. 

 

I'm not against long distance running for general fitness. I think it's a great way to expand cardiovascular capabilities and help people lose weight. It's just not good for baseball, that's all.

 

RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
Originally Posted by FoxDad:
Originally Posted by old_school:

Trying to stay on topic of the thread…I don’t understand

 


How the hell we can be in the last days of March and there is still snow on the ground in places and 20 degrees every morning when I wake up in the morning!!! Everyone please let the engine in the car run all day and lets warm this damn planet up!!!!

 

Whoever is doing the Snow Dance, PLEASE STOP!!!!!!

I feel like I live in a snow globe and some jerk keeps shaking it.

coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
Originally Posted by J H:
 

 

Cressey has some great info on this. Endurance running trains the muscles to perform in a different way than is optimal for baseball. That, in and of itself, is inefficient, and therefore is negative in training for the sport. 

 

I'm not against long distance running for general fitness. I think it's a great way to expand cardiovascular capabilities and help people lose weight. It's just not good for baseball, that's all.

 

Josh would you say that long distance running would be a good thing for baseball players in the off season to help with general fitness and cardiovascular benefits then once the season starts stop with long distance and do the sprint / explosion type exercises?  

 

I get what you're saying and totally agree with it but I just can fully accept the fact you give up on long distance running.  It needs to be done but for the bigger picture of overall health long distance running needs to be incorporated.  

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