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This should be required reading for coaches.

handyrandyhandyrandy100+ posts
This is a message from a man my son has taken a few pitching lessons, who runs an organization here in the Dallas area. He pitched D-1 college ball and thru the high minors. I thought I would post it for your perusal.

So far this baseball season I have gotten at least 10 phone calls and had another dozen or so conversations with parents regarding pitch counts and abuses on the mound. At this point, there is so much information out there medically and scientifically that it would be considered malpractice by a coach to allow a pitcher to throw an extreme amount of pitches all for the sake of a meaningless win at 10u through HS baseball. So far this year I have gotten reports of a 13 year old throwing 167 pitches in a 2 day time period, a 14 year old throw 119 pitch complete game last week , a 16 year old throw 145 pitches and another 18 year old throw over 200 pitches in a 3 day span. This is stupidity at the highest level.

If I were a parent of one of these boys this would enrage me. The reason for this is simple. This is NOT the Major Leagues. These boys are not under multi-million dollar contracts and have insurance on their arms. When you hear big league managers/pitching coaches allow a MLB pitcher to go 135+pitches it is not comparable to youth baseball in any way, shape or form. The reason for this is the MLB pitchers for the most part have a very good understanding of their body, their mechanics and how to throw to take stress off of their arms and transfer that to the rest of the larger muscles and have been training properly for the entire off season and by the way are full grown men who are much stronger and their bodies able to handle that type of stress much better. They also have been through a building up process in spring training to get their arms ready.

The other side of this is development. At younger ages, you usually have two "pitchers" on a team who just happen to have good arms and throw harder than the rest of their teammates so they get most of the time on the mound. This means that a guy who may have huge upside on the mound but has control problems never gets a real chance to work through some of his issues because a coach is "scared" to put him on the mound because they might lose if he pitches...call the therapist, the kids will never recover emotionally or mentally if they lose a game! Actually, it's the coach who is finding his self worth through winning a 12U or HS game that needs the help. The kids will be fine, they just want to play the game and be taught well!

Amount of pitching:
Age Max pitches/game Max games/week
8-10 52 +or- 10 2 +or- 0.6
11-12 68 +/- 10 same
13-14 76 +/- 10 same
15-16 91 +/- 5 same
17-18 106 +/- 5 same

These are the pitch counts from Dr. James Andrews group and ASMI in Birmingham, AL. He was my surgeon on my Tommy John surgery. The part to understand in these numbers is that these are not a starting point. They are a MAXIMUM, meaning if it is March, these kids should not be at their maximum number of pitches but they should be much lower than this and giving some of the other guys on the team a chance to develop as well and not just worrying about a win. Also keep in mind it is not the number of innings a kid throws but the number of pitches and you combine high pitch counts with poor physical conditioning and a lack of good throwing mechanics(there is a right and wrong way to throw a baseball) and you are just asking for your kid to end up on the sidelines or on the operating table.
If it were my son, there is no way I allow these abuses to go on. Say something to the "coach" or pull him off the team. It's that simple. For what it's worth, my 13u team went 29-15 last year and not one pitcher threw over 75 pitches, we are 8-3 to start out this year and we have not had one throw over 60 pitches so far. Could we win a few more games by keeping a guy in there longer...probably. Do I care? No. Do you?
"Do the next right thing."
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BackstopDad32BackstopDad325,000+ posts
Hey TPM this brings up a good question. I know you are big on the college first approach.

Now that you have seen both sides (collegiately and professionally) don't the professional ranks do a better job of taking care of a young pitchers arm?

If you have the ability as a pitcher to sign out of HS I would think there has to be some concern about pitching in college due to overuse, etc.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by BackstopDad32:
Hey TPM this brings up a good question. I know you are big on the college first approach.

Now that you have seen both sides (collegiately and professionally) don't the professional ranks do a better job of taking care of a young pitchers arm?

If you have the ability as a pitcher to sign out of HS I would think there has to be some concern about pitching in college due to overuse, etc.


I am pro college first because of the life experience. Many pro teams take good care of young arms, so did the coach my son played for in college, my belief is that no one could have done a better job, so we were lucky. Despite doing most everything right, son struggles with minor issues that have sidelined him during every pro season but one.

Just keep one thing in mind, the word pro doesn't mean better. There is a big difference in teams and how they do business, definetly they don't all do it the same way. As far as college, not surprising how pitchers usually get drafted from the same college programs over and over. Also, keep in mind that in pro ball there are many, many pitchers, in college the team may have a shortage, that is something that every pitchers parent should look into, then you know if there is injury, your healthy player won't have to get over used. Same when they are young. On a LL team, I beleive that everyone should share the load in pitching.

Also, FWIW keep in mind the Verducci rule, 30 inning increase a year is safest for growing pitchers, so if your pitcher hit 50 innings one year 80 give or take is healthy, not 125.

You can keep track through Boyd Nation on college pitcher abuse.

http://www.boydsworld.com/data/pitchcount.html
Last edited by TPM
PD PA Dino500+ posts
I get the whole thing.......but what is the definition of a
quote:
meaningless win
? The author appears to have included high school baseball aged players. When is it acceptable to compete for the immediate "prize" instead of reserving effort for a perceived future "prize"? And how do we develop the "gamer" mentality? Again, I do get it but when is it time to push the envelope and when do we strictly adhere to these recommendations? I assume at some point in his career he had to push himself past the pitch count. I'd like to know how the author suffered his injury......was it abuse? Kids aren't much afraid of injuring their arms with every professional ballplayer showing off their scar and saying, "Hey don't be like me, take care of your arm."
quote:
He was my surgeon on my Tommy John surgery.
Last edited by PA Dino
A all32210+ posts
I'm pretty sure I know this author. He was also my son's pitching coach back in 03 and 06 before moving to big D. TJ surgery was late in career and he was a big proponent of what he wrote above well before he had that scar. Also, keep in mind the pitch counts are from Dr. Andrews.

I know he includes HS age because they are still physically developing. Perhaps "meaningless" was a bad word choice as a blanket statement, but I may be inclined to agree if my son's HS coach tried to overuse him on the mound at any point. He is as tough a competitor as you will find, who never "reserves effort", but not at the expense of common sense(which he gets from his mom).

Finally, top coaches at all levels know these things, and I have found them to be mostly cautious. It still falls to the parent to be the gatekeeper.
Last edited by all322
AM AL MA 08100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PA Dino:...
By high school though players are either much too independent to have their parents involved or coaches just won't tolerate it. Sink or swim, they are on their own by then.


I believe that to be true from many parents and kids perspective. It is too bad too. You are often "stuck" with the school for the area you live in. Many people and players fear they can not talk to the coach about pitch count and rest inbetween innings. Why do we fear or rather avoid talking to the HS coach about such things? How do you change this perspective? IMHO, we need to encourage parents of young players to have that conversation with the coach.

Don't do this at practice, games, or maybe even in season. This is a conversation that needs to occur in the fall when your player starts at the school, whether that is middle or high school level. I always had this converstaion with every coach my son had until college. The college pitching coach had this conversation with me and son at one of our visits to the school while we were checking the school out. So needless to say I was impressed. College coach claimed to have never put a pitcher into surgery. They even do preventive measures to keep arms healthly. So I believe coaches are open to such conservations but your timing needs to be right. You can also talk to parents with kids in grades ahead of you about how the coach treats his pithcers. Be informed and get some information before you go talk to the coach. That way you will see through any tall tales if he tries to mislead you. If he states one point and you know another you then have to decide on challenging him on it or not. At least you will know if he is trying to pull the wool over your eyes and you know going in what may or will happen if you don't say something now?
PD PA Dino500+ posts
High school coaches are just the luck of the draw. There are some really good ones and then there are all the rest. Unfortunately, as a parent of a high school pitcher, if he has some talent you are going to be sitting in the stands and saying to your buddy next to you, "I can't believe he's going out there for another inning." There's nothing you can do to change that. Having a plan and sticking to it are two very different things. By that time, the only defense is your son himself. He's got to step up and say he's done. Where I come from, that kid isn't going to say anything but, "Give me the ball...."
AM AL MA 08100+ posts
PA D, I certainly agree that game time is not the time to say anything as you see your son head back out to the mound. Son and coach have already decided what is more important.

But why do "most" avoid having this conservation with the HS coach at all(or even the middle school coach for that matter) or in the fall or at the parents meeting at the beginning of the season? What is wrong with finding out what the coach believes and making your position known when you can have a discussion away from the field?

I have seen kids rubbing their arms in between pitches and a kid break down crying on the mound because his arm hurt and the coach was sitting by the dougout watching and waiting for the kid to throw another pitch. Not only NO but hell no was I ever going to let that happen to my son.

Let me say that I did let it happen one time. At 10, at the end of the summer travel season my son went the entire game and was at 115 pitches. I had placed him on a travel team and we were in the last game of the season and I had lost track of the pitch count. Son and I were luckly that it had no lasting affect. He was blessed with a strong arm and never had any soreness. I credit alot of that with swimming on a swim team from the time he was 4.
Last edited by AL MA 08
PD PA Dino500+ posts
quote:
But why do "most" avoid having this conservation with the HS coach at all(or even the middle school coach for that matter) or in the fall or at the parents meeting at the beginning of the season? What is wrong with finding out what the coach believes and making your position known when you can have a discussion away from the field?


I expected that coach to know what the heck he was doing. I didn't automatically assume I knew more about pitching than he did. My son never wanted me to handle his problems with the coach or set any type of groundwork with him regarding pitch counts or rest. So I guess, my own experience was similar to other parents. The coach didn't want that meeting, my son didn't either....so it never happened.

I also never wanted to present the appearance of an entitled atmosphere for him. We never talked about "saving" anything for the next level or for that matter the next game. We had gotten over that when he nearly died from head injury in an accident. It was live for today after that, not I'll save it for when I'm a big time college pitcher. It became, striving for a perfect game, a no-hitter, a complete game win, a chance for the team to win, this inning, this pitch. Tomorrow did not exist. I realize there is certainly a place and time for cautious planning, developmental training, reasonable participation, and planned peak performance but it all has to be balanced with a present fierce competition and the rewards that brings. It is an attitude that sometimes accentuates the present at the expense of the future but the answer lies in your approach. Mine is and always will be about now, the present, the sky, the grass, the cold bite in the air. I don't know how not to breath deep and soak in the sun and I guess most of our kids who play ball also want to say, "give me the ball".....instead of ....."I need to sit this one out."
J johnu10+ posts
I'm fortunate that my son's freshman team coach is pretty approachable - my several conversations with him have been about academics and school work, but would have no problem talking to him about arm health if I thought I needed to.

That might be more of a factor of being at a school where football is first and most everything else is second. But we're lucky in that the freshman, JV and varsity coaches all seem to see their job as developing better ball players - hard for a ball player to be better if their arm is hurt.

As an aside, my son has never been reluctant to tell a coach if he has some arm pain, usually saying "Coach, I'm done - my arm's hurtin'." Every coach he has played for has replaced him immediately because a pitcher with a hurting arm generally isn't effective. But then, he has never played four games in one day or six in a weekend where the team is flat out of pitching, either.

John
handyrandyhandyrandy100+ posts
PA Dino,
I will tell you that the win is "meaningless" if it comes with a price tag of blowing my kid's arm out and me having to foot the medical bills. I also expect my kid to deal with it on his own, but he is 14 and a freshman, and I doubt that's going to happen at this stage-and he is the "give me the ball" kind of kid. I have to monitor his teen-age ego and bulletproof mentality, because he(like us when we were his age)will not. I would like to see him have a chance to someday play varsity ball, and do so with a healthy arm.
Coaches have a moral and ethical obligation to keep the health of their players at least in mind, if not at the top of their list.
PD PA Dino500+ posts
Age 14 and freshman....you are in a transition period as a parent toward ever decreasing influence over the workload your son will bear. The more talented he is, the more uncomfortable you may be with the way he is used especially if he has the kind of mental approach you describe. When he is given the opportunity to compete for his high school team, he will probably not err on the side of caution. The older he gets the less receptive he will be to your suggestions or perhaps pleas for restraint although he may tolerate it well.

It is easy to tell a coach where the bear scats in the woods, it is another story to be at odds with your son. I struggled with this when my son was a high school pitcher. His coach was the "tough it out type". My son wanted to be known as a gamer. It didn't matter what the arm felt like, when he got asked, "Can you go today?" It was "Yes sir."

I anticipated this in his early years and decided that the best defense was not constant attention to pitch counts, though I kept them religiously. I paid more attention to the signs of fatigue and removed him from competition. More importantly, what I also did, was teach him about being physically fit, strong, properly rested, consuming a good diet and I focused on prehabilitative exercises for the rotator cuff and other major muscles. This was an insurance policy against coaches he would have that might knowingly or unknowingly tend to abuse his arm. He managed to make it through his high school years without injury. Who really knows if anything I did contributed to that health. Now, in college he continues to compete and each day is presumed the last and meaning is sought with every pitch. It is a choice to not mortgage the present for a chance at the future. What the future holds, I do not know but I know exactly what is before me now and I bask in it.

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