zomby- Good response. Although I disagree, I respect your opinion
It's too bad some people who are so cynical they won't give the benefit of doubt to ANYONE. Guess they include, Ripkin, Gwynn, Griffey, Jeter and every star who played in the roid era. There are another maybe 90 people on the list of users that haven't been named. That doesn't mean that most of them were necessarily stars either. In every follow the crowd or peer pressure situation there are always people who through pride, honesty or sometimes just plain stubbornness don't follow the crowd and want to see what they can accomplish on their own or in this case without artificial help. Some people just have enough self confidence or faith in their own talent and are above doing things like steroids just because many others are. I truly believe Jeter and Thome are these type of people. I feel we have to beleve men who have never been caught red handed, never been mentioned in books, never came out on THE list, never admitted they were users, never were accused by people who outed even friends who were users, and truthfully if you know anything about true steroid usage, don't exhibit the physical characteristics of a user.
As for the Reggie Jackson comment, I feel that had Reggie not been fortunate enough to be on two great teams and got lots of World Series time where grant you, he did well in SOME of them, he would not be considered nearly as good a player as he is. Actually I've always felt he is somewhat overrated if anything. Hitting 27 or 32 HRs year after year with a couple of 40's thrown in wasn't that unusual in his era. Of course if you can make it through one of his books as I have you would think he was the second coming of Ruth. To see how much effect a few good World Series efforts can have on people's perception of someone as a player all you have to do is go to the thread about who people would pitch in the 7th game of the World Series and see how many people actually think Jack Morris with his career 3.90 plus ERA would be the pitcher to have on the mound since he did pitch one great game in the World Series once upon a time.
As for the Reggie Jackson comment, I feel that had Reggie not been fortunate enough to be on two great teams and got lots of World Series time where grant you, he did well in SOME of them, he would not be considered nearly as good a player as he is. Actually I've always felt he is somewhat overrated if anything. Hitting 27 or 32 HRs year after year with a couple of 40's thrown in wasn't that unusual in his era. Of course if you can make it through one of his books as I have you would think he was the second coming of Ruth. To see how much effect a few good World Series efforts can have on people's perception of someone as a player all you have to do is go to the thread about who people would pitch in the 7th game of the World Series and see how many people actually think Jack Morris with his career 3.90 plus ERA would be the pitcher to have on the mound since he did pitch one great game in the World Series once upon a time.
quote:Can anyone with a straight face say Pee wee Reese is a hall of famer?
Yes!
Don't even get me started on that one! 
I don't see what the fixation with Reese is since Zomby has mentioned his non Hall of Fameness(I made that word up) before when there are numerous others in who clearly were less deserving than him. Even a NY Yankee shortstop of the past.
I don't see what the fixation with Reese is since Zomby has mentioned his non Hall of Fameness(I made that word up) before when there are numerous others in who clearly were less deserving than him. Even a NY Yankee shortstop of the past.
I wouldn't put that Yankee SS in the past in the HOF either. I'd definiely put him in as a broadcaster tho
However both Rizzuto and Reese are in so it is what it is.
However both Rizzuto and Reese are in so it is what it is.
quote:Originally posted by getagoodpitchtohit:quote:Originally posted by zombywoof:quote:Originally posted by J H:
zombywoof- How do you figure Thome's numbers increased as his career went along?
His best power numbers were from 1996-2004. This was around the time sluggers were putting up big numbers in the roid era.
Again, I'm not saying Thome definitely did roids and is an admitted cheater because that isn't the case. However in my mind, I have doubts, but that goes for all the sluggers during the roid era.
Unfortunately, those who did the roids made it bad for anyone else who didn't mess with them.
So do you have doubts about Griffey too? Same prime, same numbers, same era. Or is there no doubt because everybody says he's a great guy and would never have done it? If you feel this way then it has to be all or nothing including Thome AND Griffey doesn't it?
For comparison, Griffey, Jr., who everyone agrees is a sure-fire first ballot selection had his best years in a 8 season stretch from 1993-2000 averaging:
BA - .294
HR - 44
RBI - 116
OBP - .387
SLG - .606
OPS - .993
Griffey I thought would be roid-free. Griffey never blew up like a ballon and were it not for the injuries his numbers would've been off the charts. I always saw Griffey as a natural and extremely gifted ballplayer. A player who could do it all. He would've surprised me a little if he was juicing up. However, to be consistent, I question all the sluggers including Griffey. I just see Griffey less likely to be juicin' up.
quote:Originally posted by Three Bagger:
It's too bad some people who are so cynical they won't give the benefit of doubt to ANYONE. Guess they include, Ripkin, Gwynn, Griffey, Jeter and every star who played in the roid era. There are another maybe 90 people on the list of users that haven't been named. That doesn't mean that most of them were necessarily stars either. In every follow the crowd or peer pressure situation there are always people who through pride, honesty or sometimes just plain stubbornness don't follow the crowd and want to see what they can accomplish on their own or in this case without artificial help. Some people just have enough self confidence or faith in their own talent and are above doing things like steroids just because many others are. I truly believe Jeter and Thome are these type of people. I feel we have to beleve men who have never been caught red handed, never been mentioned in books, never came out on THE list, never admitted they were users, never were accused by people who outed even friends who were users, and truthfully if you know anything about true steroid usage, don't exhibit the physical characteristics of a user.
As for the Reggie Jackson comment, I feel that had Reggie not been fortunate enough to be on two great teams and got lots of World Series time where grant you, he did well in SOME of them, he would not be considered nearly as good a player as he is. Actually I've always felt he is somewhat overrated if anything. Hitting 27 or 32 HRs year after year with a couple of 40's thrown in wasn't that unusual in his era. Of course if you can make it through one of his books as I have you would think he was the second coming of Ruth. To see how much effect a few good World Series efforts can have on people's perception of someone as a player all you have to do is go to the thread about who people would pitch in the 7th game of the World Series and see how many people actually think Jack Morris with his career 3.90 plus ERA would be the pitcher to have on the mound since he did pitch one great game in the World Series once upon a time.
This is so true Three Bagger. At some point I think everyone has to make a choice. The cynical will just lump all the players from that era together forever more. The rest of us will just go with the facts as we know them - if they weren't named and no other evidence has come out, then they are assumed to be clean. Move on. They deserve to be ranked among their peers both before and since.
As far as Reggie goes, I'think it's safe to say that he would disagree with you and I'm pretty sure he would gladly tell you so! Seriously though, he did play on 4 World Champions and his BA, SLG, OBP, and OPS were higher in the postseason than the regular season. He is tied for 4th with Mantle in all-time post-season HRs, ironically 1 ahead of 6th place......you guessed it - Jim Thome! So both guys really showed up when it mattered.
BTW - That was me with Morris. He was THE horse for 2 World Champions before the division playoff era, the 1984 Tigers and the 1991 Twins. Over those 2 playoff runs, Morris made 8 starts going 7-0 with 2.06 ERA, pitching 61.1 innings. This magnificent run was capped off of course with the 36-year old Morris pitching the epic Game 7 10 inning 1-0 shutout over the hard luck Atlanta Braves. Remember the pitching rich Braves of that time? Morris pitched 3 games in that series giving up all of 3 runs in 23 innings. Smart, a battler, a real pitcher. Yeah, I'd give him the ball with everything on the line.
quote:Originally posted by zombywoof:
Griffey I thought would be roid-free. Griffey never blew up like a ballon and were it not for the injuries his numbers would've been off the charts. I always saw Griffey as a natural and extremely gifted ballplayer. A player who could do it all. He would've surprised me a little if he was juicing up. However, to be consistent, I question all the sluggers including Griffey. I just see Griffey less likely to be juicin' up.
I certainly understand your sentiment. Griffey in the AL and Bonds in the NL were generally considered the 2 best players in baseball at the time in the 90's. They were both something to see. Then McGuire and Sosa blew up like Arnold and had their little HR duel. It appears that Griffey just kept on being Griffey, while Bonds became jealously enraged and went on the offensive. The rest is history, for better or worse.
getagoodpitchtohit,
It's not that Morris wasn't a good pitcher even an excellent one in the Series, it's just that is far from the best performance throughout baseball history. Another thing is he was 0-3 in the very next set of playoffs in 1992 giving up 19 earned runs in 22 innings pitched with 15 walks. So his overall body of work in the playoffs, 3.86 earned run average is not quite as impressive when you look at all of it. Many pitchers have had World Series that were much more impressive against more formidable hitting teams than the 1991 Atlanta Braves. That is why I don't rate him that highly in that particular argument. Oh, and there are quite a few Morris supporters out there besides you.
It's not that Morris wasn't a good pitcher even an excellent one in the Series, it's just that is far from the best performance throughout baseball history. Another thing is he was 0-3 in the very next set of playoffs in 1992 giving up 19 earned runs in 22 innings pitched with 15 walks. So his overall body of work in the playoffs, 3.86 earned run average is not quite as impressive when you look at all of it. Many pitchers have had World Series that were much more impressive against more formidable hitting teams than the 1991 Atlanta Braves. That is why I don't rate him that highly in that particular argument. Oh, and there are quite a few Morris supporters out there besides you.
quote:Originally posted by Three Bagger:
getagoodpitchtohit,
It's not that Morris wasn't a good pitcher even an excellent one in the Series, it's just that is far from the best performance throughout baseball history. Another thing is he was 0-3 in the very next set of playoffs in 1992 giving up 19 earned runs in 22 innings pitched with 15 walks. So his overall body of work in the playoffs, 3.86 earned run average is not quite as impressive when you look at all of it. Many pitchers have had World Series that were much more impressive against more formidable hitting teams than the 1991 Atlanta Braves. That is why I don't rate him that highly in that particular argument. Oh, and there are quite a few Morris supporters out there besides you.
Morris is always a hotly debated topic, I think because that last postseason really skews his overall stats. Those other 2 postseasons leading to titles were as dominating as you will find. Only a handful, literally, can touch that. I don't hold that last one against him. I see it as a 37-year old who had thrown 800+ innings over the past 3 seasons finally hitting the wall. Father time always, always wins. He struggled through the next 2 seasons and was done. Good debate.
Back to the topic at hand. This PED issue will continue with all the players of that era until they cycle through the milestone/retirement/HOF ballot process. In the years to come, Bagwell will be coming up for a vote, Pujols will certainly be scrutinized and ARod is going to be a firestorm (what's new). It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.
Morris was a competitor. Now would he be my choice for a Game 7? I could think of a couple over him but would like my chances with Morris pitching.
Did anyone questioning Thome's bigger body mass towards the end of his career see his dad? My goodness! The man is in his 60's and looks like a rock.
Anyways, the PED issue could just go away for all i care. I could take all the PED's I want and they wouldn't make me a pro ballplayer. And how do we know when players started taking them? How do we know they're not still taking them? There's no test for HGH. EVERY player in the ENTIRE league could be on it for all we know. There is no test for it.
I've also spoken with former major leaguers that say that Greenies (amphetamines) are almost as prolific of a PED as steroids because they can help you play every day and focus on every play. Those things have been around for half a century at least and we have no idea who took them. Some accounts I've heard have people using them like bubble gum, chew, or coffee.
My point is we have no idea who used what. And even if we do know that someone used do we punish them and not the other guy that didn't get caught or isn't suspected?
Obviously all these drugs are not a good thing but they are out there and they are not going away. Every player in pro baseball is extremely competitive and is going to look for a leg up because this is their passion and their livelihood and these things tend to make certain people dishonest.
All in all, I wish I never had to hear about PED's again. It's just an unnecessary discussion in my opinion.
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Anyways, the PED issue could just go away for all i care. I could take all the PED's I want and they wouldn't make me a pro ballplayer. And how do we know when players started taking them? How do we know they're not still taking them? There's no test for HGH. EVERY player in the ENTIRE league could be on it for all we know. There is no test for it.
I've also spoken with former major leaguers that say that Greenies (amphetamines) are almost as prolific of a PED as steroids because they can help you play every day and focus on every play. Those things have been around for half a century at least and we have no idea who took them. Some accounts I've heard have people using them like bubble gum, chew, or coffee.
My point is we have no idea who used what. And even if we do know that someone used do we punish them and not the other guy that didn't get caught or isn't suspected?
Obviously all these drugs are not a good thing but they are out there and they are not going away. Every player in pro baseball is extremely competitive and is going to look for a leg up because this is their passion and their livelihood and these things tend to make certain people dishonest.
All in all, I wish I never had to hear about PED's again. It's just an unnecessary discussion in my opinion.
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When I think of other ball players like Thome,
the following come up:
Mike Schmidt
Harmon Killebrew
Willie McCovey
Willie Stargell
So far, Thome is only player to hit his 500th home run as a walk-off.
(Think about it)
And while there, many won't see (or be hearing about) the ninth member of the 600 Home Run Club
Yes, Jim Thome will be a HoF.
Should he not sign (free agent 2012), anticipate
35 votes in 2016, induction 2017.
the following come up:
Mike Schmidt
Harmon Killebrew
Willie McCovey
Willie Stargell
So far, Thome is only player to hit his 500th home run as a walk-off.
(Think about it)
And while there, many won't see (or be hearing about) the ninth member of the 600 Home Run Club
Yes, Jim Thome will be a HoF.
Should he not sign (free agent 2012), anticipate
35 votes in 2016, induction 2017.