Thoughts on Dee Gordon Suspension

PGStaff,

I'm not a Doctor, but I did stay at a hotel last night.  My understanding is PEDs are not just about strength and performance but they are also about stamina, endurance and recovery.  Perhaps Dee's offense had more to do with the latter, and that is why he got dinged.  Just a thought.

Seems like a very nice guy from what I've read.  Don't really know much about him, but perhaps he had a little set back or small injury that he was trying to cover.  Maybe he felt he still needed to earn his $50 million by staying on the field more.  

I feel that for what he was caught using, that's not nearly enough to add any real performance enhancing gains.  I feel the same way about every "cocktail" MLB players get busted for, which is composed of obscure drugs that are obscure for a reason (they're anabolicly worthless).  

2017LHPscrewball posted:

Seems like a very nice guy from what I've read.  Don't really know much about him, but perhaps he had a little set back or small injury that he was trying to cover.  Maybe he felt he still needed to earn his $50 million by staying on the field more.  

I think that this has a lot to do with it.  Its primary use for these guys is for stamina and recovery. In this case he has already made a lot more than most, and he hasn't been performing well and feels obligated to perform better.   Not one person can play that many games a year, including spring training, and be 100%. No one.

Anyone can go to a doctor and get PEDs.  Its not illegal.  Its a banned substance by MLB and most other professional sports.

I am a huge Dee Gordon fan. I am extremely disappointed. But I also understand that the pressure to perform for anyone in this business is HUGE.  Even for the guys getting paid the big bucks.

And FWIW, he's not the only one, he just got caught. And how ironic that Barry Bonds is his pitching coach.

JMO

Everyone can very easily buy and use illegal steroids.  I hear most of these guys say they did not know they were taking anything illegal.  Some get fooled by the supplements, but PED's allow you to do many things. Add 35 lbs, hit the ball harder, recover between workouts and games faster, get $50M contract.  Maybe he felt he needed PED's so he could perform at his level now that he is getting 600AB's (PED's will make you recover faster between workouts).  It's surprising that PED users get caught with all the drugs that mask their use.  Now days, you almost need to be turned in by someone. Maybe someone was jealous of his $50M contract and tipped someone off.

Doctors are not going to prescribe PED's unless you have a medical condition that warrants the drug.   PED's prescribed for performance enhancement is malpractice and Doctors doing so will lose their license if caught or implicated.  That is why there is a huge black market.

I have no idea of the specifics of particular banned substances but I did read once that even your eyes/hand eye coordination can be enhanced. 

Until I read as to how it was ingested, I'm withholding judgement. Is it possible that the testosterone was ingested as a part of an OTC product? Was the clostebol a part of a subscribed pharmaceutical designed to treat a rash?

I didn't buy into the Braun explanation, especially when they used the chain of custody defense. But I find the Dee Gordon situation troubling. And there doesn't seem to be room in the CBA to defend the player in case of unintended consequences, especially in incredibly trace amounts that do not benefit the player.

When in doubt: http://www.nsfsport.com/. But even if something is on the list yet the player tests positive for a PED in that something, the player is on the hook.

CBA is coming up post 2016 season, and I hope a sense of reason is built into the agreement.

joemktg posted:

Until I read as to how it was ingested, I'm withholding judgement. Is it possible that the testosterone was ingested as a part of an OTC product? Was the clostebol a part of a subscribed pharmaceutical designed to treat a rash?

I didn't buy into the Braun explanation, especially when they used the chain of custody defense. But I find the Dee Gordon situation troubling. And there doesn't seem to be room in the CBA to defend the player in case of unintended consequences, especially in incredibly trace amounts that do not benefit the player.

When in doubt: http://www.nsfsport.com/. But even if something is on the list yet the player tests positive for a PED in that something, the player is on the hook.

CBA is coming up post 2016 season, and I hope a sense of reason is built into the agreement.

I'm not familiar with the specifics yet.  But I remember several years ago, Jim Miller the QB for the Bears was suspended for something that was in a GNC pill he was taking.  His "defense" was, if you ever saw me in the shower you'd know I wasn't taking steroids. 

Hopefully clean players are going to finally step up and try to stop these cheaters from continuing to abuse the system. A small $1.3M penalty is nothing when taking into account a $50M contract. The benefits still out weight the risk. Verlander is one who is finally sick and tired and speaking up and if more of their peers something will happen. Unless they do and make the punishments severe it will continue. (Like a minimum of 2 year bans and loss of contracts) 

If you do any reading on the subject it is not plausible that Dee Gordon "accidentally" took a supplement, it is factually not possible. He has tested positive for a known "stack of steroids" and unless he specifically names the supplement he took and specifically he lays out what happened EXACTLY - then he is just another cheater.  Of course he will say he is sorry, and yes it was a supplement, bla bla bla, all of which are a bunch of lies. Sorry he is just another Barry Bonds, who have cheated all of those honest players who have been penalized for being clean. 

Gordon may be a nice guy, but he is still a cheater now with the rest of the bunch. 

2forU posted:

Doctors are not going to prescribe PED's unless you have a medical condition that warrants the drug.   PED's prescribed for performance enhancement is malpractice and Doctors doing so will lose their license if caught or implicated.  That is why there is a huge black market.

That is very wrong.

Go ahead and explain

There is a link on an expose on cycling where authors went to US doctors and said he wanted to get bigger, more stamina, reduce time, etc.  They wrote prescriptions and put him on a whole program to improve his cycling.  When I get a chance I will post, if I can find.

If you said "Most doctors...." that would be different.  The absolute is laughable.

joemktg posted:

Until I read as to how it was ingested, I'm withholding judgement. Is it possible that the testosterone was ingested as a part of an OTC product? Was the clostebol a part of a subscribed pharmaceutical designed to treat a rash?

I didn't buy into the Braun explanation, especially when they used the chain of custody defense. But I find the Dee Gordon situation troubling. And there doesn't seem to be room in the CBA to defend the player in case of unintended consequences, especially in incredibly trace amounts that do not benefit the player.

When in doubt: http://www.nsfsport.com/. But even if something is on the list yet the player tests positive for a PED in that something, the player is on the hook.

CBA is coming up post 2016 season, and I hope a sense of reason is built into the agreement.

There are non prescription creams for rashes that contain clostebol (there have been Tour riders that have tested positive for PED use and claim rash treatment using Trofodermin (in their country)).

2forU posted:

joemktg posted:

Until I read as to how it was ingested, I'm withholding judgement. Is it possible that the testosterone was ingested as a part of an OTC product? Was the clostebol a part of a subscribed pharmaceutical designed to treat a rash?

I didn't buy into the Braun explanation, especially when they used the chain of custody defense. But I find the Dee Gordon situation troubling. And there doesn't seem to be room in the CBA to defend the player in case of unintended consequences, especially in incredibly trace amounts that do not benefit the player.

When in doubt: http://www.nsfsport.com/. But even if something is on the list yet the player tests positive for a PED in that something, the player is on the hook.

CBA is coming up post 2016 season, and I hope a sense of reason is built into the agreement.

There are non prescription creams for rashes that contain clostebol (there have been Tour riders that have tested positive for PED use and claim rash treatment using Trofodermin (in their country)).

That doesn't pass the BS meter.  

PGStaff posted:

1) He doesn't hit for power.

 

2)  He is very fast, but he has always been very fast.

 

3) He has had a higher batting average the last couple years,

 

4)  He didn't all of a sudden hit more home runs or get faster, bigger and stronger.

 

5) something doesn't add up here.

1)  His bat speed/ exit speed is probably higher (hit f/x could probably verify this), so balls are hit harder and farther.  Balls that would be an easy out are now hard to handle or make it over the infielder's head.

2)  Maybe he's even faster with PEDs

3)  BA went from .234 to .333, that's huge. From bubble to MVP.

4)  He went from 4 HRs in 5 years to 4 HRs in a single year

5)  He's dirty.  He defrauded the Marlins out of $50 million.  He kept a clean player off the roster.

BOF posted:

Hopefully clean players are going to finally step up and try to stop these cheaters from continuing to abuse the system. A small $1.3M penalty is nothing when taking into account a $50M contract. The benefits still out weight the risk. Verlander is one who is finally sick and tired and speaking up and if more of their peers something will happen. Unless they do and make the punishments severe it will continue. (Like a minimum of 2 year bans and loss of contracts) 

If you do any reading on the subject it is not plausible that Dee Gordon "accidentally" took a supplement, it is factually not possible. He has tested positive for a known "stack of steroids" and unless he specifically names the supplement he took and specifically he lays out what happened EXACTLY - then he is just another cheater.  Of course he will say he is sorry, and yes it was a supplement, bla bla bla, all of which are a bunch of lies. Sorry he is just another Barry Bonds, who have cheated all of those honest players who have been penalized for being clean. 

Gordon may be a nice guy, but he is still a cheater now with the rest of the bunch. 

My guess would be that the percentage of MLB players that have never used PED's is not very large.  Verlander's bandwagon might only have a few passengers.

Also, do you believe MLB cares?   

Interesting take: www.usatoday.com/story/sports/...ct-marlins/83700248/

Included this quote from Mattingly from five days ago:  “You have to remember, he was 140-something pounds when he came up [note: 5 years ago]. Now, he’s slowly over a few years built up, I think, he’s 170 pounds. This is a kid who has put on mature strength, along with a pretty good swing, and obviously the speed tool isn’t going away.’’

Dee Gordon led MLB by a wide margin in infield hits.  Also led in bunt hits. That is the reason for the high average.  The 5 HRs vs. only 4 before is probably due to having more ABs to hit 5 than total ABs it took to hit 4.  I don't think anyone that sees him play would say he has gotten bigger and stronger or hit the ball harder.  

He hits more ground balls than anyone in the big leagues.

Maybe the PED's made him faster, but he has always been one of the fastest players.  Surely someone knows whether his h-1 times have lowered.

Only thing I can think is just staying healthy and in the line up. Is that something the stuff he took does?  

I'm not claiming he didn't do it, I just don't understand why and how he might have "enhanced" anything.

BOF posted:

Hopefully clean players are going to finally step up and try to stop these cheaters from continuing to abuse the system. A small $1.3M penalty is nothing when taking into account a $50M contract. The benefits still out weight the risk. Verlander is one who is finally sick and tired and speaking up and if more of their peers something will happen. Unless they do and make the punishments severe it will continue. (Like a minimum of 2 year bans and loss of contracts) 

If you do any reading on the subject it is not plausible that Dee Gordon "accidentally" took a supplement, it is factually not possible. He has tested positive for a known "stack of steroids" and unless he specifically names the supplement he took and specifically he lays out what happened EXACTLY - then he is just another cheater.  Of course he will say he is sorry, and yes it was a supplement, bla bla bla, all of which are a bunch of lies. Sorry he is just another Barry Bonds, who have cheated all of those honest players who have been penalized for being clean. 

Gordon may be a nice guy, but he is still a cheater now with the rest of the bunch. 

BOF is spot on, ML players don't injest PEDs by accident.   

The drug of choice for being focused and alert is adderall and allowed by ML baseball with a doctors Rx as it is not a banned substance.   He tested positive for exogenous testoterone and Clostebol. This is what they test for, not your common variety type found in asthma meds or those used by a prescribing doctor to treat inflammation like a medrol dosepack. Come on, get a list of banned substances and don't make excuses.

He claims he did not knowingly injest it, but also claims he made a mistake.  He apologized. Not good enough.  Also he had to have been tested upon arriving to spring training, which means he didn't do his homework on the cycle.  He dropped his appeal. Plane and simple he got caught.  It will be interesting to see his future performance.

Does ML baseball care, I think so, do the owners and many players care, probably not. 

real green posted:

BOF posted:

Hopefully clean players are going to finally step up and try to stop these cheaters from continuing to abuse the system. A small $1.3M penalty is nothing when taking into account a $50M contract. The benefits still out weight the risk. Verlander is one who is finally sick and tired and speaking up and if more of their peers something will happen. Unless they do and make the punishments severe it will continue. (Like a minimum of 2 year bans and loss of contracts) 

If you do any reading on the subject it is not plausible that Dee Gordon "accidentally" took a supplement, it is factually not possible. He has tested positive for a known "stack of steroids" and unless he specifically names the supplement he took and specifically he lays out what happened EXACTLY - then he is just another cheater.  Of course he will say he is sorry, and yes it was a supplement, bla bla bla, all of which are a bunch of lies. Sorry he is just another Barry Bonds, who have cheated all of those honest players who have been penalized for being clean. 

Gordon may be a nice guy, but he is still a cheater now with the rest of the bunch. 

My guess would be that the percentage of MLB players that have never used PED's is not very large.  Verlander's bandwagon might only have a few passengers.

Also, do you believe MLB cares?   

Yes MLB cares and pure speculation that percentage is not that large on "never used PED's".  I'd say Verlander's band wagon is wide and deep.  

PGStaff posted:

Dee Gordon led MLB by a wide margin in infield hits.  Also led in bunt hits. That is the reason for the high average.  The 5 HRs vs. only 4 before is probably due to having more ABs to hit 5 than total ABs it took to hit 4.  I don't think anyone that sees him play would say he has gotten bigger and stronger or hit the ball harder.  

He hits more ground balls than anyone in the big leagues.

Maybe the PED's made him faster, but he has always been one of the fastest players.  Surely someone knows whether his h-1 times have lowered.

Only thing I can think is just staying healthy and in the line up. Is that something the stuff he took does?  

I'm not claiming he didn't do it, I just don't understand why and how he might have "enhanced" anything.

PG,

I am sort of surprised you don't know that this stuff makes you feel better and yes, let's you stay in the line up.   Bit in Gordon's case has made him bigger and stronger, obviously.

I edited my response, I get it. He cheated.

PGStaff posted:

Dee Gordon led MLB by a wide margin in infield hits.  Also led in bunt hits. That is the reason for the high average.  The 5 HRs vs. only 4 before is probably due to having more ABs to hit 5 than total ABs it took to hit 4.  I don't think anyone that sees him play would say he has gotten bigger and stronger or hit the ball harder.  

He hits more ground balls than anyone in the big leagues.

Maybe the PED's made him faster, but he has always been one of the fastest players.  Surely someone knows whether his h-1 times have lowered.

Only thing I can think is just staying healthy and in the line up. Is that something the stuff he took does?  

I'm not claiming he didn't do it, I just don't understand why and how he might have "enhanced" anything.

Regarding the bolded text, I would have said the same thing, which is why I thought the quote 5 days ago from Mattingly -- who has seen him up close almost the whole time -- was interesting. Going from 145 lbs. to 170 lbs. from ages 23 to 28 is not a trivial weight gain.

I did a google search and found this from MLB.com back in 2011, when he was 23:

"Physically, Gordon looks a lot more like a batboy than the hoped-for 2012 starting shortstop and leadoff hitter. He's listed at 5-foot-11 and 150 pounds. His head disappears into a batting helmet and it looks like he still needs to grow into his uniform. So far, the Dodgers have been unsuccessful trying to get him to gain weight." http://m.mlb.com/news/article/16500168/

So I don't know . . .

2019Dad posted:

Interesting take: www.usatoday.com/story/sports/...ct-marlins/83700248/

Included this quote from Mattingly from five days ago:  “You have to remember, he was 140-something pounds when he came up [note: 5 years ago]. Now, he’s slowly over a few years built up, I think, he’s 170 pounds. This is a kid who has put on mature strength, along with a pretty good swing, and obviously the speed tool isn’t going away.’’

His friend saying why wouldn't he cheat justs shows how people feel about it.  Yes, no one wants to stay in milb forever and everyone wants to be rich.

Must have been pretty heavy on his mind to accept Lorias gift knowing what he was doing.

I agree with BOF...totally! 

80 game suspension means nothing. These guys are issued a list of banned substances & products every year, so no excuses...

Need mlbpa to work with owners to void contracts & dump 'em! until then, fine them!

baseballmom posted:

I agree with BOF...totally! 

80 game suspension means nothing. These guys are issued a list of banned substances & products every year, so no excuses...

Need mlbpa to work with owners to void contracts & dump 'em! until then, fine them!

 

100 likes!!!

Make the team play with 24 instead of 25.  That punishes a team by ultimately reducing depth - for a long time.  The teams will begin to pay attention to what is right in front of them, rather then the Sgt. Shultz approach ("I see nothing").

Gaining 25 pounds in five years isn't significant. It's very common for a baseball player to gain 15-25 pounds in two years when entering college.  My son was 170 when he finished his senior year of high school. He was 195 two years later while only growing one inch. Once his training and diet was geared to one specific sport rather than multiple sports he put on weight and muscle. His soccer training was torturous. He lost weight every August and fall in high school.

I wonder if there will be other casualties!?

TPM,

Having never taken testosterone and not even knowing what clostebol is, how would I know it will make someone feel better?

Someone that leads the ML in infield hits and bunts just doesn't seem to go with getting bigger and stronger.  

RJM posted:

Gaining 25 pounds in five years isn't significant. It's very common for a baseball player to gain 15-25 pounds in two years when entering college.  My son was 170 when he finished his senior year of high school. He was 195 two years later while only growing one inch. Once his training and diet was geared to one specific sport rather than multiple sports he put on weight and muscle. His soccer training was torturous. He lost weight every August and fall in high school.

I disagree. He was drafted at age 20 and hadn't gained any weight by age 23 (the Dodgers were "unsuccessful" in getting him to gain any). In those three years, I'm pretty sure his training and diet  were geared to one specific sport. The difference is, he was done growing; comparing your son at ages 18 & 19 (when he was still growing, as you noted) to a fully grown man between ages 23 and 28 is not an apt comparison. Also, putting 25 lbs on someone who weighs 145 is more significant than 25 lbs on someone who weighs 170.

I don't know what Dee Gordon did or didn't do. My point was that a common reaction is surprise, because Dee Gordon is small -- but he is not as small as he was when he was 23. And after years of trying to gain weight, there was certainly an incentive for him to try to get bigger.

He chose to take very weak drugs.  Whether those were the only two things he was taking, I don't know, but if that was it, those are not strong enough to help you put on 35lbs.  Perhaps he thought it worked better than it did and that gave him a mental edge in the weight room and motivation to stuff himself with food.  

Last night I was watching the Yankees/Red Sox game and the Dee Gordon situation (PEDs, steroids, etc...) came up between Bob Costas and Jim Kaat.  You'd think Kaat would be a little sympathetic to a player in todays game, but he wasn't.  They reviewed with the audience the steps laid out by the Collective Bargaining Agreement if a player is caught.  I was surprised to hear Kaat mention that he'd like to see an MLB team given the authority to void or release a players contract after being caught the 2nd or 3rd time....ironically A-rod came to the plate while all this banter was going on.  Truthfully, I think Kaat is onto something here.  I think the self-prescribed PEDs and steroids have gotten enough attention and public support to take them out of the game entirely, and hitting the cheaters directly in the wallet is the best place to start.  I'll be looking for it in the next CBA.   JMO....

1) I hope Kaat continues to work the booth until he's 120. Hasn't lost a step. With all of his years of on and off the field work and dedication, he should be in the HOF in some way, shape or form.

2) I'm backing off my skepticism surrounding Dee Gordon. For all intents and purposes, he's admitted something. And I agree with Kaat: there needs to be some way void a contract that was built on misleading past performance.

That's the big problem, the players get huge contracts after the fact. So what has to be done is all players coming up for contracts or free agency have to tested beforehand.  Way before. All the fuss about these guys cheating, they say they are sorry and they serve their suspension and still get big contracts.  

I agree with Verlander. As soon as a positive test is revealed, they should be suspended, then begin the appeal process. And they should lose their title to whatever they got it for.  In this day and age it's not that you took something you didn't realize was bad. You just messed up...period.

This kind of hits home with me. My kid battled injury and had a tough time coming back. Its really tough to watch them battle while under pressure to perform up to expectations. It's easy to try something to help. That big chance with only a call up away.  Then you see these guys who made it up, but that's not good enough. They still cheat.

It hurts. It also hurts when your favorite player just got an 80 game suspension.

If a player's contract is voided they will just find another team to give them a big contract. Make them play for minimum wage for two or three years.

Void their contracts and bring criminal and civil charges for fraud.  Change their uniforms to orange.

25lbs from 23 - 28 is not suspicious weight gain by any measure. I am sure Kaat is perfectly fine with the steady diet of amphetamines taken in his era. Pretty easy to be pure when you got no skin in the game.

Ted22 posted:

25lbs from 23 - 28 is not suspicious weight gain by any measure. I am sure Kaat is perfectly fine with the steady diet of amphetamines taken in his era. Pretty easy to be pure when you got no skin in the game.

It was not a banned substance at that time.