throwing daily, should I?

I would say as long as you aren't getting on a mound every day and you listen to your arm, throwing every day is the best way to build arm strength. I would maybe give one day off a week, but the best way to train your arm to throw is to throw.

I would set a routine and follow it base on whether you are a reliever or a starter. If you are a starter, you can follow the same routine every week. If you are a reliever, you have to be more careful because you want to have your arm ready at all times. Also, how old are you?

im 19 i play at a juco, i use to catch until i started losing sight of more and more colors (colorblind) i threw one pitch in the pen and the pitching coach said pitchings the way to go

Are you going to be a starter or a reliever?

he wants me to close, but im thinking how many teams draft just on closing? so im thinking starting at middle relief and than starting, my arms got no problem throwing 150 pitches at the same velo. with the control im working on
i just wana make sure i dont do my arm harm this summer with my throwing workouts

If you are a dominant closer, you will get drafted. Scouts look more at velocity, off-speed pitches, control, and movement more than where you are in relief.

Being a closer, you need to be ready to throw everyday. You just need to develop a program where you can be near 100% for 2 or 3 straight days before a day off.

okay thanks i can still longtoss and throw FB CU pens but still throw 90% easily which def gets the job done and when i know its a bigger game or i need the extra velo for scouting purposes, dont throw so much the day before? that way i can still build arm strength, and work on spots and fine tuning pitches as well as doing my job
is that a decent sounding way to go about it?

I would say throw longtoss once a week to maintain arm strength...worry about increasing velo in the off-season. If you throw 2 days straight, take the next day off...when you throw bullpens, throw 75-80% just to work on spots, release points, etc. Other than your once or maybe twice a week long-toss session, I wouldn't throw over 90% until game time.

I would also make sure you maintain your running and take ice baths after each time you throw (if possible).

With all due respect you can and should throw long toss every day. Work it into your pitching rotation and maybe the day after you pitch take it easy.

Find what level of effort works best for you as arms/bodies vary.

The guys at Jaegersports can help you with more details. They are at www.jaegersports.com

BOF: A person's arm, especially in college needs recovery time. No pitcher in college plays long toss every day. You should throw long toss as part of your routine, but not every day. If you do, his arm will be dead by the end of the year.

quote:

If you do, his arm will be dead by the end of the year.

I must disagree. I played long-toss almost EVERY DAY from March through September from about the age of 5 up until last year when my playing career ended. I can count the number of times my arm hurt more than just a little bit of soreness on one hand. There were times 9,10,11 I'd play catch for HOURS at 150 feet or more.

I never once experienced a "dead" arm because I threw too much.

Players need to build arm strength by playing a lot of catch while they are growing up.

I agree you need to build arm strength while they are growing up, but this player is not "growing up." He is 19. Increasing arm strength is not something you try to do in the middle of the season as a reliever. Every time you play catch, you should throw a few throws at max distance just to ensure you are loose, but throwing a lot of balls to try to gain arm strength will cause your velo and stamina to drop during the game.

I played long catch every day as an infielder. When we would take infield in front of scouts, I would hose out on the first day. I knew the next day I would not be able to have the same life on my ball. Arms do get fatigued. This kid is reliever. There is no need for him to throw long trying to build his arm strength because he needs all the arm strength "on call" and ready to go at game time. The off-season is the time to build the arm strength.

Simple question here got you bakstop---your profile states that you have a 1.8 pop time and you hit for power---why are you looking to pitch?

If those statements are fact then you have a bright future behind the plate

INshocker:

The guys at Jaegersports (and many others) who advocate building up arm strenth so you can perform during games disagree with you. There are still some in MLB that limit their players to 120' only because that is what they have done in the past.

When you train for any sport you train beyond the demands seen during a game, match, race, in season. In this case you are giving incorrect advice.

Ok well if my advice is incorrect please show me the studies you have done on pitching performance enhancement and the effects of playing long catch in-season everyday vs. playing a few times per week. My advice is based on my personal experience as a player and as an observer of one of the top pitching programs in D-1 history.

I do believe when you TRAIN you train beyond the demands of the game, but when you are in-season, you are no longer training. You are maintaining. I, too, advocate building arm strength. When you are trying to get outs and get looks from scouts, you don't want to have a fatigued arm from training earlier that day.

BOF: I just went to the site and here is a quote.

quote:

When: In vs Out of Season

The most important time to establish a throwing program is "out" of season. There are several reasons why, so let's examine these first:

1) When a player is "out of season" there is an extended period of time that can be devoted to throwing only for the purpose of conditioning (i.e. building arm health, strength and endurance). Through the conditioning phase, pitchers can establish a much needed base that can be "drawn on" throughout the season. Likewise, throwing can be easily regulated and monitored when there aren't the demands of game situations or consistent throwing on sore, tired or depleted arms (especially for pitchers in bull-pens and game situations). This freedom allows players to throw on a daily basis according to the needs of their arm. Finally, it is an optimal time to work on a players mechanics because the freedom from game situations provides an extended period of time to change potentially unhealthy and limiting mechanics.

2) When a pitcher is "in" season, bull-pens and game situations put a tremendous amount of wear and tear on the arm , which creates a great deal of swelling, slows down recovery period time and virtually eliminates optimal time to throw distance and sustain strength and endurance. This is even more magnified for pitchers who don't have a base from the off-season.

Comment: Because few players actually know how or when to long toss in the off-season, few players have the ability to sustain their velocity and endurance throughout the season. Then the domino theory goes into effect. The arm has to throw a bull-pen on a sore or tired arm sooner than it wants to. It goes into the next game situation without the needed recovery period. And soreness creates soreness. Tiredness creates tiredness. Aches creates aches. Irritation creates irritation. All of a sudden a player finds himself extremely vulnerable to an arm injury. And the last thing on his mind is to throw distance (throw at all) between bull-pens or game situations. This is a common cycle that can go on all season for arms that are not properly conditioned in the off season (that lack a base from which to work from). The arm is in a degenerating cycle that makes it much more prone to a serious injury.

Your own support says you should build your "base" out of season. Maybe my advice isn't as incorrect as you think.

quote:

Originally posted by INshocker:
BOF: A person's arm, especially in college needs recovery time. No pitcher in college plays long toss every day. You should throw long toss as part of your routine, but not every day. If you do, his arm will be dead by the end of the year.

Tell that to the Japanese and Korean pitchers. Dice K's story is out there on the net and his development routine is the rule for these guys, not the exception.

INshocker:

I have been going to the Jaeger sports clinics going on 3 years now and have had many discussions with Alan and Jim about proper arm care and maintenance. (I am not trying to hype them in particular, as there are others who have the same opinion) They recommend for their students to throw every day and to find out what level of effort works for each individual. Some need a little extra rest after pitching, and they have some of their students throwing 300’ the day after they pitch. (HS/college/pros) I agree Individuals are different, but they suggest that you strive to get in your work daily. I do agree with you that you need to build up a base prior to the season, but there is no reason to shut down after the season starts - you adapt it around your pitching schedule.

All of this said it is as important to have “ serious mind set” and proper approach to every thing you do in regards to your arm health. This means proper warm up, use of the bands, cool down, etc, etc. My son is a pitcher, and like you I can only attest to what has worked for him. I can say that in his HS season this year, not a single kid on his team, and I saw maybe 2-5 kids in all of the other teams we played, went through a proper warm up, band use, proper throwing warm up and pre-game prep. It just is not done and it amazes me since you read about kids younger and younger having arm problems.

I think it is great that you went to their site and checked it out. I also see that you are looking at teaching baseball so I would encourage you to go to one of their clinics, or contact them about their approach. They are open and will help you out.

Bakstop007,

“i use to catch and ive converted to pitching, how often should i throw?”

With the traditional pitching mechanics you should throw every day minimally and every three days maximally because of the injurious effects of the mechanic.
If your mechanics are clean you can throw maximally every day because the body will fully recover from any fatigue with in 12 to 20 hrs. Remember inactivity = Atrophy.

“ive been told long tossing everyday is the way to go with bullpens every third day”

Throwing long toss is great for field players when mechanically sound and distanced correctly for the game. But if a pitcher is going to train for strength using a 5.5 oz. object to do it is counter productive. You can throw maximal effort into a net at ten feet, why do you need someone to catch it. The best training for speed is live on the mound Sport specifically not Long Toss at bad shoulder angles. Why would you make maximal throws to train off the mound non-specific to your sport mechanic? Proprioceptive building blocks demand that you train specifically for targeting also.

Make a catch net and target, throw 64 pitches a day if you have 4 pitches, throw 16 Maximal effort. We do this every day after 64 wrist weight reps, 64 Iron ball throws
and other training regimen. Warning: do not do this if you throw with traditional pitching mechanics!!!

“so far ive been working out for a week and throwing for an hour everyday, plus running icing and other workouts.does this seem conterproductive; is it too much, or is it healthy as long as im not throwing my arm out every pitch everyday?”

Drop the icing and do a warm down, 10 fold more production.
Run short burst sprints, trot, walk, trot, and sprint again on grass. Drop the distance.
As long as you are not causing injury you can train and train and train and do your homework!

INshocker,

“If you are a dominant closer, you will get drafted. Scouts look more at velocity, off-speed pitches, control, and movement more than where you are in relief.”

Forget the scouts!! Nothing short of a Masters degree will do.

“take ice baths after each time you throw (if possible).”

What the hay? Didn’t you see the end of TITANIC.

“BOF: A person's arm, especially in college needs recovery time. No pitcher in college plays long toss every day. You should throw long toss as part of your routine, but not every day. If you do, his arm will be dead by the end of the year.”

Correct mechanic (crow-hop) Long Toss improves your injury susceptibility rate by letting you get the ball up to driveline height before your glove leg touches ground, this prevents UCL degradation. This gets traditional pitchers to at least feel where they should be. If you powerfully pronate and throw inside of vertical you can throw train every day!

“"growing up." He is 19.”

What is the difference between Biological and chronological age?

“Increasing arm strength is not something you try to do in the middle of the season as a reliever.”” but throwing a lot of balls to try to gain arm strength will cause your velo and stamina to drop during the game.”” The off-season is the time to build the arm strength.”

Maintenance is a physiological tenet even during competition

Inactivity will cause your velo and stamina to drop during the game.

“Ok well if my advice is incorrect please show me the studies you have done on pitching performance enhancement and the effects of playing long catch in-season everyday vs. playing a few times per week.”

Every Exercise physiology, Kinesiology and Motor skill text used everywhere states these facts but traditional pitchers are in a class by themselves with their destructive mechanics which puts a caveat next to the training regimen.

“My advice is based on my personal experience as a player and as an observer of one of the top pitching programs in D-1 history.”

This is known as anecdotal advice although thaught provoking!

“you are no longer training. You are maintaining.”

In the training world maintenance is training at lower intensities, not shutting it down!

“you don't want to have a fatigued arm from training earlier that day.”

Then train after if necessary.

BOF,

Have you witnessed what they teach for long toss mechanics?
Do you agree with this approach or a Crow-step mechanic?

When have I ever said the words "shut them down". The only thing close to me saying that is I said starters should take the day off after they pitch if they need and relievers should take a day off every once in a while. I even said players should long toss. I just don't think hosing out everyday is the way to go. I had a strong arm and was able to maintain my strong arm through a full college season, summer ball, and fall ball.

BOF: I agree that each player needs to know their own body. Some people need different things in order to recover.

I definitely checked out the website and it looks like a lot of good information. I am always open to different ways of training. The last 6 years, I have studied and tried to learn as much as possible to help myself get into the best possible physical shape while improving my athleticism. I love to learn different philosophies of training and to test out those philosophies on myself to see what works. Like I said, I am stating these opinions just from what has worked for me and from what I have observed. I obviously know there is no one way to train effectively. The more ways you know, the more you are able to understand.

thanks a lot for the input guys.
the ony thing i really dont understand now is what is the point of long tossing 300ft? if your throwing up with an arc how can that help? ive watched games where teams have players throwing foul poll to foul poll and they only throw 85 (5 or 6 guys can do this)
however why not throw with pitching mechanics with greater velocity on a line to a specific target on a net from 70 or 80 feet? (i use to just throw at 120ft for catching no more)

bakstop: From my experience, the farther you are able to throw a baseball, the greater your velocity will be. I always threw as far as possible, and in order to get that length, I had put air under it. I believe one of the main reasons I was able to throw 94 is because of my playing long catch all the time growing up. My body learned how to generate power from doing that.

I know very few people that can throw foul pole to foul pole on a normal sized field. If they can, they would definitely throw harder than 85 mph with proper mechanics.

doy ou think it would be just as effective though throwing 80 feet at close to 100% ? staying relatively on a line?

Personally, I believe long tossing is more effective. It forces your body to continually adapt and improves your ability to throw longer which increases your arm speed. For me, it doesn't matter if it is on a line or in the air. You are trying to increase arm strength/arm speed, so the direction the ball goes is irrelevant.

Try finding Rick Ankiel's throws in Colorado a few weeks back. You'll see he put quite an arc under both of them but they were both "strikes" right to the 3rd baseman. Then realize he was drafted as a pitcher and actually pitched in MLB before moving to the outfield...

quote:

Originally posted by bakstop007:
thanks a lot for the input guys.
the ony thing i really dont understand now is what is the point of long tossing 300ft? if your throwing up with an arc how can that help? ive watched games where teams have players throwing foul poll to foul poll and they only throw 85 (5 or 6 guys can do this)
however why not throw with pitching mechanics with greater velocity on a line to a specific target on a net from 70 or 80 feet? (i use to just throw at 120ft for catching no more)

Bakstop:

I don't know what others teach regarding long toss, but the guys a Jaeger have you start in a very specific way and work out to your maximum distance. You then move in and start to "pull down" working your way in to 60-90', throwing "on top" of the ball at the same effort that you were throwing at 300'. (I wish not me I'm old ) Your not going to learn it here at HSBBW just where to go. Since you are in NY the best way to start is to purchase their "thrive on throwing DVD". It will be the best $35 you have spent. If you are ever out here on the West Coast go to one of their sessions. There may be some folks who do the same stuff as them on the East Coast, I just don't know any. You could drop them an email and they may have a recommendation for you.

Good Luck!

FYI, looking at son's winter throwing program and interestingly enough it is not recommended to toss everyday. As distance increases so does velo.
Max is 150 feet. Now I know this most likely is a guideline.
But according to this post, he's not throwing enough off season.
BOF, I agree with that post, programs must change in season, off season. I do know that son tosses everyday (none after start), but not the same distance as in conditioning.

I also find the whole debate interesting, there are so many different training methods, yet pitchers continually break down regardless of methods. For younger pitchers, who start, relieve, close, it's so difficult to base your workout on your workload. JMO.

FWI worth, could longer rest periods with longer outings be the key. Or shorter periods of work with less work? Everyone seems to be lumped together, I do beleive that each and every pitcher is different. MLB pitchers are who they are because they can defy the odds, starters pitch on 5 days, or some relievers every other day, closers maybe every night.

Inshocker, regardless of what you did do, I do beleive you have stated you developed shoulder problems in college to prevent you from going further. Is the key to the whole thing more throwing when younger, older, or proper mechanics, specific training or both? Should programs vary depending on the type of build that a particular pitcher has, the type of pitcher he is? I guess if someone could figure that out, they'd be a rich person.

BOF: When you say "pull down" do you mean get your release point back to a low one? When I played long catch at maximum distance (110-120 yards), when we started to come back in, I would really have to focus on getting my release point back. I would have so much whip and action on my ball as we started to move back in, I wouldn't have great control for my first 3 or 4 throws from 90 or so feet.

TPM:

I developed arm problems because I was a shortstop and dove on my shoulder and tore it up; not as a result from throwing. I had a very strong/healthy arm until I landed on it wrong.

Inshocker,
Good lesson to be learned though, pitchers (although I realize you were not a pitcher) should not play other positions.

TPM: I am a big advocate for good position players not becoming pitchers!!

Hi bakstop007,

A good rule of thumb is to practice your pitching motion at least 50 times a day for 4-5 days. As far as actually throwing pitches, 3-4 times a week is plenty. Also, it is a good idea to have at least one day a week where you do not throw at all, including long toss. Most pitchers should not throw at all the day after a game. If you feel you must do something on that day, I would recommend getting in a long jog over 3 to 5 miles. This can help endurance with your legs which are what really drive your pitching endurance.

Hope this helps,
Jack Elliott
Baseball Pitching Tips

INshocker- Jaeger's stuff is great. He's a good friend. We had a great talk today. We had 5 guys of the first 69 picks in today's draft. All of them are J-Band and long-toss warriors.

While playing everyday, you can't long-toss like you would during the off-season. It's more 3-4 times a week and modified. Regarding the pulling-down phase, the idea is to get out to your maximum distance. Don't worry about an arc. Let's say you get out to 300'. The idea is to compress that 300' throw into a distance that ends up at about 60' as you work in from the max. It does two things- it re-sets a good release point and teaches you how to really finish out front. The velocity goes up immediately when guys are able to grasp that feeling.