Throwing hard ?

I think it is important to combine good mechanics with proper warm-up and be sensible about when and how often max-effort throws are made. 

 

We had a good young player come out last season who came out straight into every warm-up throwing max effort.  Tried to get him to adjust but he just wouldn't.  His arm didn't make it to spring.

Yes.

But it's impossible to quantify/define what's "too hard", so........

Having a good arm is an injury risk, especially coupled with flawed mechanics. Even with clean mechanics the load gets higher if you throw harder but bad mechanics make it worse. But still throwing harder is better.

Yes, it is very possible to throw too hard even with good mechanics when you are young.  The best way I can explain it is that young players who may look physically mature are in fact still growing their adult muscles.  This includes the tendons in their arms.  I can't recall who did the study but in short it said that big players with kid muscles are the most prone to getting injured because their adult bodies are trying to do things that their kid muscles aren't designed for. 

 

Caco if you find that source I would be very interested.  That has been our case.  Constantly have to explain to people that he is still a kid with little boy muscles in spite I f the mountainous size.  However on the issue of throwing hard I know when I was a kid we threw as hard as we could every pitch.  Its just what we did.  Not saying what is wrong or right.  Just I would need some evidence to make a decision.  These are tough ones because even among the medical group there is so much disagreement.

Sorry 2020 I can't find it, I remember reading specifically that the children that were most in danger were the early bloomers that looked like adults but still had kid muscles holding everything together.  This article talks about it a bit, but there was more:

 

http://www.nationwidechildrens...es-in-young-throwers

 

"This type of injury occurs in young athletes because their growth plates (apophyses) are weaker than the muscles that attach to them. The stress placed on the growth plates from repetitive throwing can cause them to become inflamed and produce pain and swelling. If the child continues to throw through pain the growth plate may even begin to separate from the rest of the bone."

 

 

I can give my son as the anecdotal example...

 

He went through  "bulking up" spurt, rather than a "growth spurt" going into his freshman year.  He put on around 30 lbs in 4 months, and it certainly wasn't fat.  He wasn't in the gym or really doing anything other than playing summer ball.  It just seemed that overnight he went from Steve Rogers to Captain America.

 

During that fall, he experienced a lot of elbow soreness after pitching.  He wasn't pitching excessively, and it didn't mater how much rest he had.  Finally we got in to see a sports ortho.  After x-rays and MRI's the doctor said he basically had the muscles of an adult, but the connective tissues of a 12 year old.  That's not a good combination.  Fortunately, the damage in the elbow wasn't bad enough to require surgery, but probably would have been if he had continued to pitch at that point.

 

The doctor said that it's something he sees frequently in youth athletes.  Muscles can grow faster than the connective tissue, and until it has an opportunity to catch up, there is an increased chance of injury.

 

He said at the time that two of the biggest groups he sees were baseball boys with elbow issues and soccer/cheerleading girls with knee issues.  

Thank you Rob T!  That pretty much describes the article I can't find, looks like a big adult but inside still a kid.

 

Can I ask what the outcome was?  Did he ever pitch again?  When did his big boy tissues grow in, or did he just move to another position?

He took off the spring of his Freshman year from pitching.  Specialized in batter's box lining and mound maintenance that season.

 

SInce his elbow wasn't in "needs surgery" condition - rather "could have surgery or try rehab" condition, we opted for the rehab route.  He worked with a physical therapist whose patients are primarily teen athletes. The goal there was to develop all of the muscles needed to protect the elbow and shoulder.  After a few months he was able to throw pain free after going through a "return to throwing" protocol. (Basically the same as post TJ surgery)

 

At that point I took him to see a pitching coach that Kyle recommended.  The coach pointed out some issues in my son's mechanics and gave him corrective drills.  After doing the drills for about a month, my son was able to get back to throwing at full velocity. From the fall of his freshman year to the fall of his sophomore year he picked up about 10 mph velocity wise.

 

He continued on a "maintenance" workout routine created by his PT.  To this day we are in the gym at least 3 times a week.

 

This past summer (between sophomore and junior year) he pitched for a scout's team and did well.  No arm problems at all.

 

He pitched this fall without any issue, but has decided to not play this spring. Between multiple A/P classes, and dual enrollment college courses, he was burning himself out and decided to just focus on academics for a while.  Coach says there is a spot on the team if he wants it.  I don't think he does, but I guess it's up to him. 

 

 

Bottom line is, the harder someone throws, the more stress is put on the body.  Whether the person is an 8 year old kid or a MLB player.  The problem comes in as stated above, that with the younger kids, the growth plates are not fully formed and you could be asking for trouble.  It's not really the tendons and ligaments, but the growth plates.  Those are the weak spots for kids.  When they get older and the growth plates fuse with the bone, the weak spot usually becomes the tendons and ligaments.

 

The problem is, you don't want to tell the kid not to throw hard.  The only thing you can really do is limit pitches according to the ASMI guidelines.  I think one of the bigger problems with hard throwing youngsters is that they get overused because they are more effective.

 

So, bottom line, you can't discourage throwing hard.  That is a good thing.  But, you will need to be extra careful about overuse with these young guys.  Don't let pride get in your way.  Don't let them get overused and worn out before things really start to matter...

I agree bbman

That's why I never let my son pitch, he pitched maybe  10 inns total from age 6 to 14 . Since I saw he had a electric arm at a young age .

I agree 100%. Best thing I did for 2019Son when he was 12 was get him on a travel team where he wasn't the best or second-best pitcher (I didn't have to look too hard for a team like that! LOL), because those guys threw a lot of innings. And that was with a coach who paid attention to overuse.

I can't agree completely with the theory... The harder you throw the more stress it puts on your arm.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that some can throw 95mph with much less stress than others can throw 90mph with much more stress.

 

12U could adopt a rule that would definitely help eliminate some problems.  Kids with the best arms can't pitch.  No one really needs to pitch when they are 12 or younger. There is plenty of time to master the craft later on. Yes, it would change the game.  The best team of nine would win most of the time.  All the kids would learn the game.  However, I doubt anyone would go for that idea.

 

One thing that is true today and true 100 years ago.  Those with the best arms are going to throw the ball hard.  If they can do it, they will.

PGStaff, you would likely be more qualified than most to answer the OP's original question.  "Is it possible to be throwing too hard at a young age with good mechanics ?"

 

What do you think? Is it possible? 

 

PG ,

 

I AGREE WITH YOUR INPUT,  the reason I asked , is because my 2019 is that, only a 2019 , and last week, at His  first HS open gym  , the varsity coach pulled out his radar  and timed everyone ,out of the 30  kids that were  there . He Wrote it down and will tell everyone later on .
He didn't tell my 2019 his score , but I asked and my 2019 was the 2nd highest .. The top was a Sr.

 

Here is a response by an ASMI affiliate to some questions asked on the ASMI forum that I thought might be appropriate here. Although not entirely true all the time and things vary some from one individual to another, it seems there is a least some evidence to show a relationship between velocity and force on the elbow. I guess you can read and form your own conclusions.

"Kinetics Related to Pitch Velocity:
By Ben Hansen and Timothy Evans [ASMI Summer Researchers]

To answer your second question, Yes! As a person throws faster, the kinetics (i.e. forces and moments) seen by their joints increases. However, this occurs on a per subject basis. For instance:

“Pitcher A throws two pitches. The first pitch is 80 mph and the second pitch is 85 mph. The second and faster pitch would in turn result in increased forces and torques at Pitcher A’s shoulder and elbow.”

However, do fast throwing pitchers always place more stress on their elbow than slower pitchers? Not always. Consider the following:

“Pitcher A throws 85 mph and places 60 Nm of torque on his elbow. Pitcher B throws 90 mph and places 55 Nm of torque on his elbow. “

This case can occur, and it sometimes does. It really depends on a pitcher’s mechanics. Although, in general, faster throws by an individual result in increased torques and forces, some pitchers are more effective in their delivery and can throw harder with lower torques and forces than others. This is not always the case.

To answer your question regarding studies that have quantified this relationship, a recent pitch speed study was conducted by Dr. Jason Long et al in April of 2012. (Abstract: 2012 Great Lakes Biomedical Engineering Conference)

The authors reported that on a per subject basis, internal rotation torque, elbow valgus torque, and anterior shoulder shear force follow a linear relationship (R2 = 87.2, 81.3, 90.0 respectively) with pitch velocity. Thus, a pitcher who progresses to throw faster will generate increased forces and torques on his arm.

Still, each pitcher is different. Some pitcher’s linear trend lines of force versus pitch velocity had tremendous slopes while some others have rather flat slopes. By this, I mean that some pitchers are able to throw at increased velocities with less change in their kinetics than others.

You also seem to ask if there is a link between force/torque levels and arm injury. To answer this it is first important to understand the anatomy we are dealing with. The stabilization of the elbow joint is achieved through the joint capsule, muscles, and ligaments associated with the joint. The most popular anatomical feature, especially in baseball, is the ulnar collateral ligament (UCL).

The UCL was determined to contribute to 54% of the stabilization of the elbow joint during valgus stress (Morrey et al). In addition, ASMI reports a maximal average of 64 N-m of valgus torque experienced by the elbow during the throwing motion. Thus, 34.6 N-m of torque (54% of 64 N-m) is imparted to the UCL each time someone throws the ball.

Similar testing of cadaveric elbows by Dillman et al have shown that the UCL fails under 32 Nm of valgus torque. This is one of the few quantitative reference values for limits of the UCL. Moreover, it suggests that a pitcher's elbow is near its maximum capacity during the throw.

Having said that, the muscles surrounding the joint are also contributing to its stabilization. Depending on a player’s personal strength and flexibility these muscles aide in the support of extreme valgus torques.

As well, when a pitcher becomes labored, his muscles become more fatigued and improper mechanics ensue. This makes the pitcher more susceptible to injury of the UCL when throwing. So even though the short answer to this question would be “yes,” the more correct answer would be that an arm injury is a multifactorial occurrence that is the result of many different events occurring simultaneously. In time, this will overload structures in the elbow that are not built for the stress placed upon them.

Also, you asked if there were any studies performed in regards to all significant injuries in the MLB and here is a study that may interest you. I’m not sure if this is what you were looking for, but I’ll summarize it a bit for you.

ajs.sagepub.com/content/29/4/431.short

The number of players on the disabled list has increased over the past eleven years. Pitching injuries were the most common and elbow injuries showed the most increase in occurrence over the 11 years. It is also reported that elbow and shoulder injuries make up ~50% of all injury reserve in the MLB.

To reiterate, there is a strong relationship between injury and kinetics in the pitching arm. Likewise, there is a large link between pitch velocity and kinetics. However, there have not been any direct studies relating pitch velocity and arm injury in the MLB.

References:
[1] Long, Jason; Hansen, Ben; Raasch, William “The Influence of Pitch Velocity and Throwing Distance on Upper Extremity Biomechanics” [abstract] - Great Lakes Biomedical Engineering Conference - April 2012
[2] Fleisig, G; Barrentine, S; Zheng, N; Escamilla, R; Andrews, JR. “Kinematic and kinetic comparison of baseball pitching among various levels of development” - Journal of Biomechanics - 1999 32:1371-1375
[3] Morrey, B; An, K; “Articular and ligamentous contributions to the stability of the elbow joint” - American Journal of Sports Medicine - 1983 11:315-319
[4] Dillman, C; Smutz, P; Werner, S "Valgus extension overload in baseball pitching" [abstract] - Med Sci Sports Exer - 1991 23:S135"

Don't remember who asked, but throwing hard does have some risk.  I'm not sure what throwing "too" hard means.  Throwing hard and velocity aren't exactly the same thing. Some throw as hard as possible to reach 75 mph.  Others don't throw as hard as they can and reach 90 mph.

 

At some point, I think everyone who has ever played the game has thrown the ball as hard as they possibly can. While the number of TJ surgeries is growing, we still need to realize that the vast majority of young people that throw hard do not require TJ surgery. I just don't see a need to over pitch a young boy just because he has a strong arm. Why not try to keep that kid healthy until it means a lot more.