Randy's elbow is not low. His glove arm elbow is where it should be for a tall lanky pitcher and his throwing arm is also where it should be.
I am having a problem figuring out what you are looking at. Again I think you don't realise that the elbow at some point drops below the shoulders. Every video shows elbows high at the right point in the delivery. I am trying to understand what you are seeing.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I am having a problem figuring out what you are looking at. Again I think you don't realise that the elbow at some point drops below the shoulders. Every video shows elbows high at the right point in the delivery. I am trying to understand what you are seeing.
First, ignore what the Glove Side arm is doing. It's mostly irrelevant to what we are talking about.
Now, if you compare this still...
...with this clip...
...you will see that, until after Randy Johnson's Pitching Arm Side forearm has passed through the high cocked position, what is shown in the still above is as high as his Pitching Arm Side elbow gets. This can be a little hard to see because Randy Johnson is leaning forward in the clip.
Randy Johnson's Pitching Arm Side elbow never gets as high as John Smoltz's does in the clip below...
While John Smoltz's arm makes an "M" shape, Randy Johnson's arm makes more of a "W" shape.
pain
How did you make that clip with the blue lines on Smoltz?
How did you make that clip with the blue lines on Smoltz?
u guys got me all confused. 
But the blue lines is pretty nefty.
I can look at that clip all day and I see a high elbow. I was not worrying about the glove side. His throwing side elbow is parallel with his schoulder at the point it is supposed to be.
By the way dropping the glove side elbow can cause stress on the back near the shoulders according to my doctor. Keeping both high is the best option. My son likes to break low and was having back pain which was relieved by getting glove side up.
By the way dropping the glove side elbow can cause stress on the back near the shoulders according to my doctor. Keeping both high is the best option. My son likes to break low and was having back pain which was relieved by getting glove side up.
quote:Originally posted by dm59:
How did you make that clip with the blue lines on Smoltz?
I didn't.
I found it on Siggy's pitching site.
He uses it as an example of what TO do but I think it's an example of what NOT to do.
quote:He uses it as an example of what TO do but I think it's an example of what NOT to do.
What makes you so sure the m is bad... there are guys who have pitched well into their 40s with this form...
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I can look at that clip all day and I see a high elbow. I was not worrying about the glove side. His throwing side elbow is parallel with his schoulder at the point it is supposed to be.
I know it looks like it is, but it actually isn't because he's leaning forward. His PAS elbow actually stays a couple of inches below the level of his shoulders until his PAS forearm has passed through the high cocked (e.g. vertical) position.
quote:Originally posted by deemax:
What makes you so sure the m is bad... there are guys who have pitched well into their 40s with this form...
Such as...
I'm not sure the M is bad, but I do think I see a pattern.
There are only two HOFers that I can think of who made the M: Don Drysdale and Bob Feller.
Drysdale retired early due to shoulder problems (and his M was much more pronounced than was Feller's). Here's a photo of Drysdale making the M...
Feller's shoulder seems to have been fine, but remember that his career was interrupted by his 4 years of service during WWII.
In terms of current probable HOFers, both John Smoltz and Pedro Martinez have had both elbow and/or shoulder problems.
Also, if you look at guys like...
- Ryan
- Clemens
- Glavine
- Maddux
...you don't see the M.
Pain
Did this gut pitch long enough for you... Your guessing with the M.
quote:Such as...
Did this gut pitch long enough for you... Your guessing with the M.
I'm still trying to grasp everything that's been posted, but I have a small question about all of this.
Does not arm angle/slot have anything to do with this?
To compare Johnson to Smoltz, one throws side arm one throws 3/4 does that not effect the whole positioning of the elbow in relation to the shoulder?
Just trying to learn...
Does not arm angle/slot have anything to do with this?
To compare Johnson to Smoltz, one throws side arm one throws 3/4 does that not effect the whole positioning of the elbow in relation to the shoulder?
Just trying to learn...
quote:Originally posted by Doc_K:
Does not arm angle/slot have anything to do with this?
Good question.
The answer is no.
The point I'm talking about is before the release point (where the arm slot is indicated).
What I'm concerned with is the height of the Pitching Arm Side elbow as the shoulders start to rotate, the Pitching Arm Side upper arm starts to externally rotate, and the Pitching Arm Side forearm starts to lay back.
quote:Originally posted by deemax:
Did this guy pitch long enough for you...
While Jesse Orosco did make the M, you have to keep in mind that he spent most of his career pitching in relief roles. According to Baseball-Reference.com...
- http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/oroscje01.shtml
...Orosco never pitched more than 110 innings in a season and only pitched more than 50 innings in a season three times in the last 13 years of his career.
Also, Orosco has had elbow problems.
I believe that pitching in a relief role can help a pitcher manage the strain he puts on his arm (but it's no panacea as Billy Wagner proves).
Thanks for the answer, that helps clear some stuff up, back to my reading.
TG you are too funny. I mean that in a good way. MMMMM good !
OK, maybe Jesse was fortunate enough to escape his M with 25 years service because he was a reliever...But what about Jim Kaat and his four decade tour of duty?
quote:Originally posted by deemax:
OK, maybe Jesse was fortunate enough to escape his M with 25 years service because he was a reliever...But what about Jim Kaat and his four decade tour of duty?
In the photos, Jim Kaat's elbows are behind, but below, his shoulders (notice how he's leaning forward).
I have no problem with scap loading as long as the elbows don't get above the level of the shoulders.
His elbows are the same level as his nose...
quote:Originally posted by deemax:
His elbows are the same level as his nose...
But he's leaning over toward 1B 15 or so degrees.
If you rotate the picture counterclockwise 15 degrees you will see that his elbows are just below the level of his shoulders.
What does bending over towards 1st have to do with high elbow ?
Well Pain, if its that easy...
There, I fixed Mark Prior...No more M
quote:But he's leaning over toward 1B 15 or so degrees.
If you rotate the picture counterclockwise 15 degrees you will see that his elbows are just below the level of his shoulders.
There, I fixed Mark Prior...No more M
It's a miracle !!
quote:Originally posted by deemax:
Well Pain, if its that easy...
There, I fixed Mark Prior...No more M
Obviously, it's a little more complicated than that.
Listen, I know that you and most people think this is a joke and I'm a joke for caring about this, but as we speak I'm in the middle of a conversation with an orthopedic surgeon who thinks I may be on to something.
Needless to say, his opinion carries more weight than does yours.
What are you discussing? That scap loading is harmful? The M is harmful?
According to Dick Mills.... you'd be correct sir!
"Scapula loading is when the pitcher, as part of the action of his arms lifts his arm up toward shoulder height but then also pulls his elbows back behind his shoulders…or intentionally pinches his shoulder blades together in order to provide more range of motion and added extension of the throwing arm so that more elastic energy is available to help whip the arm through. [While this does add a few MPH, it's at the cost of the chance of injury.] However, scap loading is not a natural action but is a forced action. Forced actions where joints are pushed beyond normal ranges of motion are dangerous.
Mark Prior would be a good example of a pitcher who uses scapular loading as part of his throwing arm action. Notice that Mark Prior has been continuously injured over the past four years and is again injured this year. Mark Prior also makes things even worse by not using his lower body properly. If you watch video clips of Mark Prior it is clear that he does not stay on a bent front leg long enough but rather begins to extend and stiffen his front leg much too early which puts additional stress on his throwing arm…and actually prevents him from releasing the ball closer to the plate.
I believe Mark Prior's arm problems for the past four years are possibly because he has been preoccupied with his arm action instead of focusing on using his lower body explosively and efficiently. This may have been due to his using the towel drill to gain more arm extension in an effort to get closer to the plate. However, not moving fast enough using a longer stride and staying on a bent leg long enough actually pushes his trunk back instead of allowing him to rotate and flex his trunk forward so his arm is closer at ball release.
Lifting the throwing elbow up so that it is positioned above shoulder level or is extended back behind the shoulder puts additional pressure and is much more stressful on the shoulder joint. Plus this should never be coached. Pitchers should reach natural ranges of motion and because throwing is a natural action, the pitcher's body understands this better than a coach.
Pitchers will reach their natural and normal range of motion if they are left alone. To coach this into a pitcher's arm action may be dangerous.
There are many hard throwers who did not extend their arms back like scapula loading. Nolan Ryan is one. His focus and his velocity came from an explosive lower body and an exceptionally long stride well beyond his height…rather than focusing on what his arm was doing." - http://www.pitching.com/blog/160/mark-priors-shoulder-s...ap-loading-ruin-him/
According to Dick Mills.... you'd be correct sir!
"Scapula loading is when the pitcher, as part of the action of his arms lifts his arm up toward shoulder height but then also pulls his elbows back behind his shoulders…or intentionally pinches his shoulder blades together in order to provide more range of motion and added extension of the throwing arm so that more elastic energy is available to help whip the arm through. [While this does add a few MPH, it's at the cost of the chance of injury.] However, scap loading is not a natural action but is a forced action. Forced actions where joints are pushed beyond normal ranges of motion are dangerous.
Mark Prior would be a good example of a pitcher who uses scapular loading as part of his throwing arm action. Notice that Mark Prior has been continuously injured over the past four years and is again injured this year. Mark Prior also makes things even worse by not using his lower body properly. If you watch video clips of Mark Prior it is clear that he does not stay on a bent front leg long enough but rather begins to extend and stiffen his front leg much too early which puts additional stress on his throwing arm…and actually prevents him from releasing the ball closer to the plate.
I believe Mark Prior's arm problems for the past four years are possibly because he has been preoccupied with his arm action instead of focusing on using his lower body explosively and efficiently. This may have been due to his using the towel drill to gain more arm extension in an effort to get closer to the plate. However, not moving fast enough using a longer stride and staying on a bent leg long enough actually pushes his trunk back instead of allowing him to rotate and flex his trunk forward so his arm is closer at ball release.
Lifting the throwing elbow up so that it is positioned above shoulder level or is extended back behind the shoulder puts additional pressure and is much more stressful on the shoulder joint. Plus this should never be coached. Pitchers should reach natural ranges of motion and because throwing is a natural action, the pitcher's body understands this better than a coach.
Pitchers will reach their natural and normal range of motion if they are left alone. To coach this into a pitcher's arm action may be dangerous.
There are many hard throwers who did not extend their arms back like scapula loading. Nolan Ryan is one. His focus and his velocity came from an explosive lower body and an exceptionally long stride well beyond his height…rather than focusing on what his arm was doing." - http://www.pitching.com/blog/160/mark-priors-shoulder-s...ap-loading-ruin-him/
quote:Originally posted by XFactor:
What are you discussing? That scap loading is harmful? The M is harmful?
According to Dick Mills.... you'd be correct sir!
You lost me at "According to Dick Mills..." Doesn't his opinion change with wind direction?
quote:Originally posted by thepainguy:
Obviously, it's a little more complicated than that.
Listen, I know that you and most people think this is a joke and I'm a joke for caring about this, but as we speak I'm in the middle of a conversation with an orthopedic surgeon who thinks I may be on to something.
Needless to say, his opinion carries more weight than does yours.
Please explain why it's bad. I am honestly interested in learning.
quote:Originally posted by redbird5:
Please explain why it's bad. I am honestly interested in learning.
Here is what my friend the orthopedic surgeon told me in his own (very technical) words regarding my theory of hyperabduction...
In the position of hyper abduction, elevation and extension of the distal humerus above the shoulder (inverted W) the inferior glenohumeral ligament is placed on stretch. The humeral head must lever against it to advance the arm forward. This ligament is the primary anterior stabilizer of the glenohumeral joint with the arm elevated (i,e. pitching). In other words, this position places this ligament under tension, then it is levered against in order to throw. This eventually will either loosen the shoulder, or tear the anterior labrum. It should be recognized this ligament is under stress during the "normal" delivery. If you traumatically dislocate your shoulder, this ligament is a key part of the pathology. Shoulder instability in turn leads to impingement, and other problems. Conversely, when the elbow is below the shoulder, this ligament would not be as stressed.
In plain English, what he's saying is that if you make the M (or the Inverted W), then what you are doing is putting certain key ligaments in a highly stretched (and thus inherently weaker) position. This then leaves them, or the structures to which they attach, more vulnerable to injury.
Impingement basically means parts of the shoulder (e.g. muscle and bone) rubbing up against each other and fraying each other much as a dull knife will still gradually cut a piece of meat. At the end of the day, meat is just muscle.
TG you are right if you are referring to scap loading. That is why ML guys teach you to not rotate your shoulders back but to extend straight back. I will add that this is why you should elevate your glove elbow as well as it stresses the throwing arm shoulder liagaments. The M thing has nothing to do with it.That position occures as you are getting ready to load. I prefer the hands up (ie goal post) It lessens the stress accross the shoulders. If my son drops his GH even in LT he will feel discomfort at the other shoulder. His doctor explained it clearly. He was a ML coach with the Rangers.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Randy's elbow is not low. His glove arm elbow is where it should be for a tall lanky pitcher and his throwing arm is also where it should be.
Please explain the correct arm position for tall and lanky pitchers. Is this positioning different for other non-tall and lanky pitchers?
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
What does bending over towards 1st have to do with high elbow ?
All TPG is saying is that elbow positioning is relative to other parts of the body - not to level ground. He's concerned about range of motion which has nothing to do with level ground.
quote:Originally posted by deemax:
There, I fixed Mark Prior...No more M
Now that's funny.
quote:Originally posted by XFactor:
"Scapula loading is when the pitcher, as part of the action of his arms lifts his arm up toward shoulder height but then also pulls his elbows back behind his shoulders…or intentionally pinches his shoulder blades together in order to provide more range of motion and added extension of the throwing arm so that more elastic energy is available to help whip the arm through.
So scap loading that is NOT intentional but just happens is not really scap loading?
quote:Mark Prior would be a good example of a pitcher who uses scapular loading as part of his throwing arm action.
So is Roger Clemens.
quote:Notice that Mark Prior has been continuously injured over the past four years and is again injured this year.
Are you saying it is because of scap loading?
quote:Mark Prior also makes things even worse by not using his lower body properly. If you watch video clips of Mark Prior it is clear that he does not stay on a bent front leg long enough but rather begins to extend and stiffen his front leg much too early which puts additional stress on his throwing arm…and actually prevents him from releasing the ball closer to the plate.
This is not at all clear to me. In a clip I looked at, he plants with a bent front knee and straightens the front knee about the time he releases the ball. Straightening the front knee to help soften the follow-through is a good thing as it reduces stress on the decellerators.
quote:I believe Mark Prior's arm problems for the past four years are possibly because he has been preoccupied with his arm action instead of focusing on using his lower body explosively and efficiently.
I could only guess but I'd guess you are wrong because House's philosopy is that the throwing arm belongs to the pitcher and it shouldn't be messed with. There is nothing in the NPA's mechanics model pertaining to arm action.
quote:This may have been due to his using the towel drill to gain more arm extension in an effort to get closer to the plate. However, not moving fast enough using a longer stride and staying on a bent leg long enough actually pushes his trunk back instead of allowing him to rotate and flex his trunk forward so his arm is closer at ball release.
Eveything you've said actually goes against the NPA's mechanics model and what House would have had Prior focusing on. The towel drill is not about arm extension. Getting the hips going sooner and faster while maintaining a high knee lift to build momentum and achieve a long stride ARE part of the model. Planting on a bent front leg IS what House teaches.
quote:Lifting the throwing elbow up so that it is positioned above shoulder level or is extended back behind the shoulder puts additional pressure and is much more stressful on the shoulder joint. Plus this should never be coached. Pitchers should reach natural ranges of motion and because throwing is a natural action, the pitcher's body understands this better than a coach.
Again, House does not teach arm action. Further, the elbow above the shoulders thing is purely theory at this point in time.
quote:Pitchers will reach their natural and normal range of motion if they are left alone.
Agreed. Muscles and tendons need to have a load placed on them before initiating any kind of explosive movement. Pitchers with different amounts of flexibility need to achieve different positions and amounts of stretch to achieve proper loading.
quote:To coach this into a pitcher's arm action may be dangerous.
May be. Again, it's only theory as of yet.
quote:There are many hard throwers who did not extend their arms back like scapula loading. Nolan Ryan is one. His focus and his velocity came from an explosive lower body and an exceptionally long stride well beyond his height…rather than focusing on what his arm was doing." - http://www.pitching.com/blog/160/mark-priors-shoulder-s...ap-loading-ruin-him/
I've been waiting patiently for "johnny" to elaborate as to what point in the delivery he's talking about….care to join in?quote:Originally posted by johnny appleseed:
Is there an advantage to getting your elbow above your shoulder when throwing? Do you get more velocity when throwing this way?
After all this, cap, he's probably either afraid to post again or he fell asleep...
quote:After all this, cap, he's probably either afraid to post again or he fell asleep...
....................
quote:All TPG is saying is that elbow positioning is relative to other parts of the body - not to level ground. He's concerned about range of motion which has nothing to do with level ground.
Post
Anyone who claims to be a ML scout/advisor knows where high elbow is determined. TPG doesn't have a clue. High elbow is in relation to shoulders but more specifically to stress on the shoulders and arm ligaments.
Lanky tall guys tend to have a larger range of motion but not always.
My son has a low hand break which gives him a long range as his hands break and go back to the power position. At that point his elbows should be level or slightly above his shoulders. He goes through what everyone is calling the M which eventually ends up in the power position where he is loading before going forward. Many pitchers short arm that motion with the throwing arm going up eary through the zone to the power position. I am not sure which is better for my son but I have seen him do both. Being bent forward slightly keeping his balance point over the rubber allows him to get on top of the ball better. When he was young I liked the long extension of the throwing arm because it allowed for a very smooth delivery.
Randy has a low arm angle and whips his arm more than most. He has had issues but I am not sure what his problems are exactly.
