how many of you have dealt with this?i am talking about where the upper body gets completely out of time with the lower half?had a mets scout tell me this summer it was theirno.1 problem with their major leag.pitchers.
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we have found that by emphasizing different balance points has helped with this problem. we really hammer our pitchers about balance point 2. this is when the hands seperate you are taking the stride leg straight down instead of out. this helps keep the upper and lower in sync. i know we all teach this but its a key in staying back. you can work on this through dry run progressions, on a beam, and using the wall drill or combination of the above.
thanks - steve http://www.leaguelineup.com/raiderbaseball
thanks - steve http://www.leaguelineup.com/raiderbaseball
You know you can have your pitchers go find a full length mirror and go through their pitching motion up until their lead foot hits the ground, and when that happens you want their arm to be in a cocked position. So they can keep doing that into the mirror to get the timing down
But I've noticed a ton of pitchers who have timing problems.
But I've noticed a ton of pitchers who have timing problems.
you all may, or MAY NOT have any idea what your talking about...
Raiderbb, could you please show these "balance points" in a video clip of Nolan Ryan? I just watched one and couldnt find any 
Hey Fellas the best way to solve this is to show video of what you are all talking about.
Before and after videos of how it is done the right way and the wrong way.
Before and after videos of how it is done the right way and the wrong way.
when i ran into this problem a player at the hs level had been asked to pitch also.he had done very little pitching up to his junior year.he came to me and said trying to pitch had messed up his throwing from ss.it was like he had lost his normal mechanics at the ss spot.we eventually got it worked out but it really had us stumped what was going on and what had happened for this to take place.i believe he got reaching back to much taking his weight bk past the center of gravity and also reaching back to much[long arming] to help start this.
indian_24,
you tell me the 4 balance points im talking about and i'll tell you whether nolan ryan got there or not. im on here to share and learn. share with me. steve
you tell me the 4 balance points im talking about and i'll tell you whether nolan ryan got there or not. im on here to share and learn. share with me. steve
there are a-lot of people on the Ron Wolforth bandwagon..could be what he means..The Athletic Pitcher!!!
Whether he got there or not? He was one of the best pitchers (and hardest throwers) of all time surely you could find at least one of these "balance" points... or could you find them in any successful major league pitcher at all?
The concept of balance points is to keep a pitcher in sequence. However, actually stopping at the "balance points" is going to drain momentum. The key is to maintain the proper sequence.
i agree balance points are a smooth continous flow not stopping points at all. indian_24 i really dont know what your point is. every major league pitcher ive ever watched goes through these balance points or whatever you want to call it - its just terminology. not trying to disagree or argue just dont understand what you are trying to say. sorry - steve
http://www.leaguelineup.com/raiderbaseball
http://www.leaguelineup.com/raiderbaseball
raiderbb,
I do tend to disagree with dropping the leg straight down as it can be a bandage rather than the correct approach. Personally, I believe it is only really applicable to the taller pitcher who has velocity to "spare" and is looking to throw more downhill or in some cases to a breaking ball pitcher looking to get a higher release point.
The pitcher whose lower body action I like is Oswalt's. My son's arm action is a lot like Oswalt's. Unfortunately, his lower body action isn't.
I do tend to disagree with dropping the leg straight down as it can be a bandage rather than the correct approach. Personally, I believe it is only really applicable to the taller pitcher who has velocity to "spare" and is looking to throw more downhill or in some cases to a breaking ball pitcher looking to get a higher release point.
The pitcher whose lower body action I like is Oswalt's. My son's arm action is a lot like Oswalt's. Unfortunately, his lower body action isn't.
not all of our pitchers do this - like i have said before we dont clone but i see most college and pro pitchers doing this and the clinics and material i get from college pitching coaches all have that as a step in a successful delivery. thanks - steve
http://www.leaguelineup.com/raiderbaseball
http://www.leaguelineup.com/raiderbaseball
raiderbb. i understand and agree with what you are trying to say.
cadad. this process actually improves velocity and not drain it. you will eventually take the lead foot out. it is what we call down and out instead of just falling out of your balance point. it helps to keep the weight back which allows for hip rotation and torgue (just like in hitting) when the front foot lands you need to hae your weight still back (over the back knee, as much as possible) just like hitting. the longer i am in this game the more i learn that hitting and pitching are very similar
cadad. this process actually improves velocity and not drain it. you will eventually take the lead foot out. it is what we call down and out instead of just falling out of your balance point. it helps to keep the weight back which allows for hip rotation and torgue (just like in hitting) when the front foot lands you need to hae your weight still back (over the back knee, as much as possible) just like hitting. the longer i am in this game the more i learn that hitting and pitching are very similar
thanks for making my point clearer catamount. i agree the more you look at it hitting and pitching have the same principles. there are 4 points of balance in a delivery.
1. leg lift
2. leg down/hand seperation
3. stride foot landing/power position
4. delivery/follow through
these are taught by every pitching coach i've ever talked to, heard speak, got material from or watched work and can be seen in any pitcher you watch on tv. now ive seen pitching coaches that add steps into all of that - but that is the basics. steve
http://www.leaguelineup.com/raiderbaseball
1. leg lift
2. leg down/hand seperation
3. stride foot landing/power position
4. delivery/follow through
these are taught by every pitching coach i've ever talked to, heard speak, got material from or watched work and can be seen in any pitcher you watch on tv. now ive seen pitching coaches that add steps into all of that - but that is the basics. steve
http://www.leaguelineup.com/raiderbaseball
I was just wondering what you meant by "balance" points, because many coaches i know have players stop at certain points, which will hurt the pitchers velocity. Just as CADad stated, stopping will only cause your momentum to stop, causing velocity to decrease (Simple Physics 
). You dont necessarily have to go down and out to keep the weight back... look at Roger Clemens, his upper body tilts backwards, and as his foot nears landing, evens up to the plate. I know of one pitching coach who doesnt teach the 4 balance points and he has a 100% success rate =O
Should i dare mention his name?
). You dont necessarily have to go down and out to keep the weight back... look at Roger Clemens, his upper body tilts backwards, and as his foot nears landing, evens up to the plate. I know of one pitching coach who doesnt teach the 4 balance points and he has a 100% success rate =OShould i dare mention his name?
i agree you can't stop at the balance points. it must be a fluid motion. i had one kid so bad at flying open...and then went to the extreme of ALMOST stopping that we had to speed him back up some. good point. you are also correct that you DON'T have to go down then out to stay back. i have just found that this is the best way to teach our kids to do so. there are more than one way to skin a rabbitt but you have to find out what works best for you and your kids. if i have a pitcher that can stay back and get to power position without the rest i leave him alone. i actually had never heard of the "4 balance positions" until now even though i teach the same thing
ps. raiderbb went to your web page and saw some of your contracts. i think we both come from the same "old School" i just have to be much more tactful in my wording of things around here. keep up the good work.
it seem that there are more coaching/parenting problems out west (just my thoughts after reading this great website)
ps. raiderbb went to your web page and saw some of your contracts. i think we both come from the same "old School" i just have to be much more tactful in my wording of things around here. keep up the good work.
it seem that there are more coaching/parenting problems out west (just my thoughts after reading this great website)
Concur with Raider & catamount on the foot going down & out. One big advantages is that it helps maintain good balance & posture more easily.
Guys, any time a part of the body changes direction, there is a "stop". No matter how short of a time involved. It is impossible to change directions without the velocity passing through zero.
At the top of leg lift, there is a pause before the leg starts down.
The hand will pause (in terms of the axis from the pitcher to the plate) momentarily when it reaches the "high L".
Etc.
And velocity of the throwing arm going back does not equate to velocity of the throwing arm going forward.
We shouldn't t get too caught up in semantics. JMHO
Guys, any time a part of the body changes direction, there is a "stop". No matter how short of a time involved. It is impossible to change directions without the velocity passing through zero.
At the top of leg lift, there is a pause before the leg starts down.
The hand will pause (in terms of the axis from the pitcher to the plate) momentarily when it reaches the "high L".
Etc.
And velocity of the throwing arm going back does not equate to velocity of the throwing arm going forward.
We shouldn't t get too caught up in semantics. JMHO
"maintain good balance & posture more easily."
Again we fail to define what balance is. And what do you mean by posture? Watch Pedro, Smoltz, Wagner, Ryan, or any other major league pticher that throws hard and you will see they each have a pronounced bend at their waste, but as they get closer to footplant their backs straighten out or arch as they throw the baseball.
"Guys, any time a part of the body changes direction, there is a "stop". No matter how short of a time involved. It is impossible to change directions without the velocity passing through zero.
At the top of leg lift, there is a pause before the leg starts down."
If your momentum is going toward the plate the entire time, then you will not have a pause, thus maximizing your momentum toward the plate. Watch any clip of nolan ryan from the side and you will notice he is going to the plate the entire time (he never stops).
Momentum is a force applied over a period of time, therefore you do not want to stop at all in your pitching motion, but continue towards the plate the entire time.
"The hand will pause (in terms of the axis from the pitcher to the plate) momentarily when it reaches the "high L"."
Most major league pitchers do not have a pause, their arm motion is constant (Jorge Sosa is the only pitcher i know of that has a pause, but he has a tough time with control the last time i checked). Also, some pichers do not have the "high L" but more of a "V" when their arm comes up to deliver the ball. (Clemens, Rivera)
"And velocity of the throwing arm going back does not equate to velocity of the throwing arm going forward."
Once again we must remember that momentum plays a vital part in every part of the throwing motion. In terms of momentum, the faster the arm moves in the throwing motion, the faster the velocity.
Again we fail to define what balance is. And what do you mean by posture? Watch Pedro, Smoltz, Wagner, Ryan, or any other major league pticher that throws hard and you will see they each have a pronounced bend at their waste, but as they get closer to footplant their backs straighten out or arch as they throw the baseball.
"Guys, any time a part of the body changes direction, there is a "stop". No matter how short of a time involved. It is impossible to change directions without the velocity passing through zero.
At the top of leg lift, there is a pause before the leg starts down."
If your momentum is going toward the plate the entire time, then you will not have a pause, thus maximizing your momentum toward the plate. Watch any clip of nolan ryan from the side and you will notice he is going to the plate the entire time (he never stops).
Momentum is a force applied over a period of time, therefore you do not want to stop at all in your pitching motion, but continue towards the plate the entire time.
"The hand will pause (in terms of the axis from the pitcher to the plate) momentarily when it reaches the "high L"."
Most major league pitchers do not have a pause, their arm motion is constant (Jorge Sosa is the only pitcher i know of that has a pause, but he has a tough time with control the last time i checked). Also, some pichers do not have the "high L" but more of a "V" when their arm comes up to deliver the ball. (Clemens, Rivera)
"And velocity of the throwing arm going back does not equate to velocity of the throwing arm going forward."
Once again we must remember that momentum plays a vital part in every part of the throwing motion. In terms of momentum, the faster the arm moves in the throwing motion, the faster the velocity.
I guess an incredibly nitpicking, detailed discussion is called for.
The knee comes to a pause in the vertical plane. You cannot break the laws of physics.
Please read more closely what I said regarding the arm motion. It is true if you read it carefully, you can't break the laws of physics.
And yes, I have watched Nolan. In person. In slo -mo video. And through a series of stills.
The only velocity that counts is the velocity TOWARD the target. Not away from the target. Again, basic physics.
Enough of this, before it turns into an argument.
The knee comes to a pause in the vertical plane. You cannot break the laws of physics.
Please read more closely what I said regarding the arm motion. It is true if you read it carefully, you can't break the laws of physics.
And yes, I have watched Nolan. In person. In slo -mo video. And through a series of stills.
The only velocity that counts is the velocity TOWARD the target. Not away from the target. Again, basic physics.
Enough of this, before it turns into an argument.
I completely understand your concern for an argument being started, but i am not here to argue, but to merely find the "truth" (if there is such a thing that exists, but enough of the Socratic talk).
So based on your Theory i should be able to throw just as hard from a still knee lift and my arm in a cocked L as i could throw with my entire motion?
Im asking, not being rhetorical or a smart butt about it.
My limited and uneducated knowledge always has shown me that a motion in the opposite direction (counter-move) grants you more power to the target. Its kinda like cranking a lawn mower that can only be started using the pull cord. If i stand still and grab the handle and pull i will not get nearly as much power as i could if i leaned my weight toward the handle, then pulled back. Tennis players take their racket back then forward to hit the ball, just as hitters have a small counter move in the opposite direction of the ball to gain more momentum to the ball.
So based on your Theory i should be able to throw just as hard from a still knee lift and my arm in a cocked L as i could throw with my entire motion?
Im asking, not being rhetorical or a smart butt about it.
My limited and uneducated knowledge always has shown me that a motion in the opposite direction (counter-move) grants you more power to the target. Its kinda like cranking a lawn mower that can only be started using the pull cord. If i stand still and grab the handle and pull i will not get nearly as much power as i could if i leaned my weight toward the handle, then pulled back. Tennis players take their racket back then forward to hit the ball, just as hitters have a small counter move in the opposite direction of the ball to gain more momentum to the ball.
When you lean forward while starting your mower, you are lengthening the stroke. It makes no difference how fast you lean forward.
Ditto for tennis swing. By the racket being farther back when it starts forward there is more time to build racket speed. Again, it doesn't matter how fast you take the racket head back.
Ditto for tennis swing. By the racket being farther back when it starts forward there is more time to build racket speed. Again, it doesn't matter how fast you take the racket head back.
"So based on your Theory i should be able to throw just as hard from a still knee lift and my arm in a cocked L as i could throw with my entire motion?
Im asking, not being rhetorical or a smart butt about it."
Im asking, not being rhetorical or a smart butt about it."
indian24
really you should be able to going back to go forward is only to stretch the muscles (a stretched muscle will contract stronger and for a longer distance than a relaxed muscle.
if you stretch the muscle standing still at the balance with arm **** you should be able to throw as hard. it doesn't matter how or how fast you get to that stretched position. just like no stride if you still have the weight shift forward and hip turn etc. which we use with 2 strikes (another story)
really you should be able to going back to go forward is only to stretch the muscles (a stretched muscle will contract stronger and for a longer distance than a relaxed muscle.
if you stretch the muscle standing still at the balance with arm **** you should be able to throw as hard. it doesn't matter how or how fast you get to that stretched position. just like no stride if you still have the weight shift forward and hip turn etc. which we use with 2 strikes (another story)
So an arm that moves back longer (stretches the muscles) will allow the arm to move forward faster?
the pitch and velocity happen after the stride foot hits the ground. the other steps of the delivery are just to make sure everything is in the right place when the stride foot lands so you can get max velocity and reduce injury. i think you were confused by the term balance points. these are not stoppages during the delivery. these are just check points when breaking down a delivery. its one continous, smooth process.
steve
http://www.leaguelineup.com/raiderbaseball
steve
http://www.leaguelineup.com/raiderbaseball
okay indian i see where you are getting ready to go this can be taken to the extreme.
an overstretched muscle can also result in injury. but yes a stretched muscle (put under a little tension)will react faster stronger etc. why you must bend your legs to jump etc. obviously you have to have the rest of the body doing what it needs to do
this can be taken to the extreme.an overstretched muscle can also result in injury. but yes a stretched muscle (put under a little tension)will react faster stronger etc. why you must bend your legs to jump etc. obviously you have to have the rest of the body doing what it needs to do
fyi - steve ellis has started a pitching forum for his website. i havent been on it - just got an email about it today. letstalkpitching.com
steve
http://www.raiderbaseball.com
steve
http://www.raiderbaseball.com
indian i think you are misunderstanding what is being said. when you change direction of something (ex. lifting leg up and then going down with the leg, you have to actually stop before you go the opposite direction) once you start you movement to the plate yu are not stoping. the key is to get to the power position, in order to explode to the plate.
the SPEED of movement back does not have any effect on SPEED forward. only the process of getting back to create muscle stretch aids in the movement forward.
the SPEED of movement back does not have any effect on SPEED forward. only the process of getting back to create muscle stretch aids in the movement forward.
So if i were to move my arm back at an almost snail-like pace and then throw the ball i would be able to throw just as hard as if i brought my arm back quickly to and throw?
Did this in the backyard today and the throw when i brought my arm back quickly was much faster than the slow speed of bringing my arm back.
"indian i think you are misunderstanding what is being said. when you change direction of something (ex. lifting leg up and then going down with the leg, you have to actually stop before you go the opposite direction) once you start you movement to the plate yu are not stoping."
If you have your momentum going toward the plate the entire time you do not have to have a pause. When you push with the back hip during leg left (and subsequently throughout the entire delivery) your momentum will always be going forward, because your lead leg path will not go literally down and out , but more out and down (the foot will not stay underneath the knee) much like Nolan Ryan, Roy Oswalt, Pedro Martinez, 100s of other pitchers.
Did this in the backyard today and the throw when i brought my arm back quickly was much faster than the slow speed of bringing my arm back.
"indian i think you are misunderstanding what is being said. when you change direction of something (ex. lifting leg up and then going down with the leg, you have to actually stop before you go the opposite direction) once you start you movement to the plate yu are not stoping."
If you have your momentum going toward the plate the entire time you do not have to have a pause. When you push with the back hip during leg left (and subsequently throughout the entire delivery) your momentum will always be going forward, because your lead leg path will not go literally down and out , but more out and down (the foot will not stay underneath the knee) much like Nolan Ryan, Roy Oswalt, Pedro Martinez, 100s of other pitchers.
indian,
you need to get a good video from a college/pro coach or a book with pictures and descriptions of the concepts we are describing. there are several good books out there on pitching from good pitching coaches. leo mazzones book really keeps things simple. louisville slugger has a good pitching book. theres several. lots of good videos from coaches across country.
you seem to either be just wanting to argue or your totally misunderstanding what we are saying and what these pitchers you keep talking about are doing.
and to answer your question - yes if you got to the proper power position(position when stride foot lands) you could throw just as hard probably harder if your arm went back at a snail pace. the back hip does not fire - "push forward until" until the stride foot lands. what you are describing is called leaking to the plate adn is very detrimental to velocity.
steve
http://www.leaguelineup.com/raiderbaseball
you need to get a good video from a college/pro coach or a book with pictures and descriptions of the concepts we are describing. there are several good books out there on pitching from good pitching coaches. leo mazzones book really keeps things simple. louisville slugger has a good pitching book. theres several. lots of good videos from coaches across country.
you seem to either be just wanting to argue or your totally misunderstanding what we are saying and what these pitchers you keep talking about are doing.
and to answer your question - yes if you got to the proper power position(position when stride foot lands) you could throw just as hard probably harder if your arm went back at a snail pace. the back hip does not fire - "push forward until" until the stride foot lands. what you are describing is called leaking to the plate adn is very detrimental to velocity.
steve
http://www.leaguelineup.com/raiderbaseball
i was just watching sportscenter while eating lunch. i watched highlights of smoltz and clemens from last night. 2 guys that have had pretty good careers and throw pretty hard. perfect examples of what we are talking about.deliberate slow motions. stride leg goes down and out. weight stays back til stride foot lands.
steve
http://www.leaguelineup.com/raiderbaseball
steve
http://www.leaguelineup.com/raiderbaseball
Wow! This has evolved into quite a discussion. Raiderbb does what any good coach will do and that is break down the mechanics into proper checkpoints so that as they are integrated together they form a smooth and productive movement. The analysis of movement could go on for days, but the fact of the matter is that players need to find the best rhythm and sequence to mechanically time their delivery into perfection. Each pitcher is different, some go slow and some have to go faster; some balance and others lean slightly back. THe whole key to this is that the arm, shoulders, and hips need to be in the proper positions at the proper times to allow for the most efficient velocity. Timing and proper positioning are the key; all of the parts of the wind-up are there to get you to that point.
hsballcoach,
well put
well put
extremely well put hsballcoach. its all rhythem and getting to where you need to be. you cant clone how to get there.
steve
http://www.leaguelineup.com/raiderbaseball
steve
http://www.leaguelineup.com/raiderbaseball
quote:...to answer your question - yes if you got to the proper power position(position when stride foot lands) you could throw just as hard probably harder if your arm went back at a snail pace.
The O.J. jury had difficulty finding the truth also. Tell that to this guy.
Francisco
