Time to Clean House

quote:

Originally posted by Malibuskier:

When skipper comes out and says "You're a F@#$ing idiot" or "That's two you owe me A$$hole" does the umpire have to turn and meekly walk away to keep from being part of the show?
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No, he does not have to meekly walk away. Why can't he very calmly say "leave the game, now" and go back about his business. As soon as umpires get hot, start yelling and turn up the heat, they have become part of the problem instead of the solution. It is not easy. Cops don't get to yell at the ***holes they must deal with, nor do judges or priests. It is the nature of the job. If you are a hot head, maybe you should try another profession. The managers and players are absolutely wrong, but so are the umpires when they join the fray....

Dave[/QUOTE]

And I never argued differently. I was posting my question in response to someone above blaming umpires for stepping toward a player or manager. You don't dump someone while walking away. That's considered CS by players and umpires.

WOW--putting umpires on the same plane as judges and priests

That's a new one

quote:

Why was it a bad call? Do you know what the two umpires simultaneously saw when they made the call?

Bad calls two ways. 1) Inconsistent in calling it. From what we can see, the same move is made many, many times and is not called. Twice it was but at least twice it wasn't in the same game? 2) Save a lot of trouble if you tell the pitcher WHAT you saw. This case that didn't happen. They just jawed. Both ways. If you don't tell them WHY you called a balk, how are they supposed to correct it?

quote:

Joe was practicing an old and accepted technique to quiet down someone and keep from having to eject him. He strolled over and picked up a piece of garbage from the field and gave his warning calmly when within hearing range rather than shout and point from the field. I'm amazed anyone is complaining about that.

No it was a different one. That was one of the reasons I was surprised Ozzie wasn't suspended. Throwing the line up cards on the ground like that..

quote:

A few years back the umpires were ordered to call the rule book high strike. Within three weeks the players union and management bitched so loud, that, very quietly, the word went out to bring the high strike down.

One always needs to remember that it is the players' association, owners and management who ultimately make the rules and policy.

At the beginning of the year MLB ordered umpires to follow all timing rules and policies to speed up the game, including all pitching regulations. When they did, or even talked about it, the noise from the players and managers was deafening.

If it's the players and managers, etc writing the rule book and setting the strike zone, why are so many of them being ejected for arguing balls and strikes? Shouldn't they be happy with this strike zone if they chose it?

Some of the calls I've seen have clearly been balls and were called strikes... over the white line of the batters box! Look, I know how hard it is to call balls and strikes. It just seems that some of the umpires' zones have been interpretted quite interesting.

quote:

I enjoyed the disparity of the post game comments. Joe said he respected both the pitcher and Ozzie and knew that everyone would get past this.

The pitcher went off on how Joe is more concerned with his CD sales than knowing the rules, and Ozzie dropped F bomb after F bomb after calling Joe fat.

And the rest of us will never know what actually was said.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
And the rest of us will never know what actually was said.

Sure we do. I was just quoting what each party said to reporters, not to each other. These comments are on video and are verifiable.

I just read all three pages of this thread. I won't address each case cited early but the West balk I wil. As Jimmy has noted several times, the first balk was called by TWO, count them, TWO umpires on the same play. I think the second base umpire called the balk on the leg pop and West called it on the step. The Chicago pitcher does have a good move and knows how to push the limit of what is a balk. Well, if you push the limit then every once in a while you will miss and the result is a balk.
Ozzie was a good player that as a manager is an idiot. He has no clue how to talk to an umpire or to cameras. If he dropped that many F bombs in front of the camera what do you think he does on the field?
What punishment the players and managers gets is public knowledge because ESPN reports it 1000 times a day. I could care less what they get. Nobody here has said that if an umpire steps over the line he shouldn't get disciplined but what it is has no business being made public.
West's comments about the speed of the Yankee/Boston games is 100% accurate but not the smartest thing for him to say publicly. The only justification he has is he is the head of the umpire's union. Personally I thought it was ill advised.
As far as umpires contacting players after ejections, it is a taught practice that once someone is tossed the partner comes in and corrals the player off the throwing umpire. Sometimes that requires actually restraining that person. If they were to quietly leave after the ejection that wouldn't be necessary but that is unlikely.
Many times TR has said he would lose it over some call or the other. He also has mentioned many times going ballistic. Has either approach ever changed a call. I doubt it, it would only lead to an ejection. This is the mindset that you see on TV. Ozzie goes ballistic and is surprised when he goes away.
I have said many times here, on other boards and in clinics I teach that are times that a manager must come out or he isn't doing his job. Does he have to do it at 100 decibels, not if he wants to stay. I have ne real problem if he comes out on a banger, even though that is a judgement call and he shouldn't, I will let him have his say but it is not going to be a protracted conversation. It's not going to change anything but it will help his blood pressure. If he comes out reasonably I will listen to him. If comes out yelling there isn't going to be a conversation at all. He goes back or he leaves, period. On a rules question he has to come out and that will be a longer conversation. Again if he comes out yelling it will be shorter but he will get a hearing. Comes to question then he gets more conversation.

quote:

Originally posted by Malibuskier:

No, he does not have to meekly walk away. Why can't he very calmly say "leave the game, now" and go back about his business. As soon as umpires get hot, start yelling and turn up the heat, they have become part of the problem instead of the solution. It is not easy. Cops don't get to yell at the ***holes they must deal with, nor do judges or priests. It is the nature of the job. If you are a hot head, maybe you should try another profession. The managers and players are absolutely wrong, but so are the umpires when they join the fray....

Dave

The main difference is: Cops/judges/priests are not in front of thousands of people "putting on a show" except for ones like Judge Judy. Oh, and BTW, those judges do a lot of raising their voice for the "show".

It is a completely different venue so there is no comparison. The only comparison is their authority in the situation. The players/managers/umpires are "putting on a show". It isn't just a game, it is a "show" and all come to see it. Even if it involves a manager/player and umpire yelling at each other.

Again, funny how no one seems to have a problem when 2 players do this but if one of them is an umpire and not a player, OMG. We can't have the umpires being as human as the players. Oh, he!! no, that can't happen!

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

quote:

Why was it a bad call? Do you know what the two umpires simultaneously saw when they made the call?

Bad calls two ways. 1) Inconsistent in calling it. From what we can see, the same move is made many, many times and is not called. Twice it was but at least twice it wasn't in the same game? 2) Save a lot of trouble if you tell the pitcher WHAT you saw. This case that didn't happen. They just jawed. Both ways. If you don't tell them WHY you called a balk, how are they supposed to correct it?

It is always subjective when one refers to "bad" calls. What made them inconsistent calls? The moves were probably different. No pitcher can do the same move twice back-to-back. There will be variation.

Not enough credit is given to players about knowing what they did was wrong. Just b/c Buerhle acted like he doesn't know, doesn't mean he doesn't know. This isn't just a little flinch of his glove or he slightly buckled his knee. He stepped too much toward the plate. It was pretty obvious even from the 3B camera angle and that is not in a perfect line from the rubber to 1B.

Seems pretty consistent when 2 umpires call a balk on the same play.

When is the last time you heard about a player/manager being happy about something other than their performance? Give them $1 million dollars a year and they want $2 million. Give them $.5 million per pitching start and they want $1 million per start.

Buehrle has never been called for more than 2 balks in a season but West calls 2 in as many innings. So does Joe need to hold a clinic for the rest of the MLB umps to point out what they're missing or is it just Joe West being Joe West? I'd like to think that West didn't come out of the locker room thinking "Buehrle's going, I have a feeling he's going to balk today. The Ozzie and Joe show should make Sports Center..." but I'm not so sure. I've yet to hear an explanation on what Buehrle did to warrant the calls, does anyone know? I for one won't be surprised to see Joe pop up on a reality show as Kate Goslin's nanny once he hangs up the mask.

quote:

Originally posted by Kumi:
Buehrle has never been called for more than 2 balks in a season but West calls 2 in as many innings. So does Joe need to hold a clinic for the rest of the MLB umps to point out what they're missing or is it just Joe West being Joe West?

You left out possibility #3 - Buehrle balked twice and West correctly called both of them.

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:

quote:

Originally posted by Kumi:
Buehrle has never been called for more than 2 balks in a season but West calls 2 in as many innings. So does Joe need to hold a clinic for the rest of the MLB umps to point out what they're missing or is it just Joe West being Joe West?

You left out possibility #3 - Buehrle balked twice and West correctly called both of them.

And, that Buehrle didn't balk in any of the other games. So, did he come out there and say Joe is on 1B? I hope I can sneak these by him. Maybe it was his plan to make a "show" of things since he is the one who did the balking. Or, did Ozzie tell him to do it so he could come onto the field and create a scene?

If you are going to speculate and accuse someone of being an instigator, you should do it for all. None of it would have happened if Buehrle would have just played by the rules and not balk. He is the one at fault for this being an issue.

quote:

If you are going to speculate and accuse someone of being an instigator, you should do it for all. None of it would have happened if Buehrle would have just played by the rules and not balk. He is the one at fault for this being an issue.

And now Joe's publicist wants to talk about the Yankees and Red Sox again.. that's the greatest thing I've heard in awhle... umpire having his own personal publicist lol

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
And now Joe's publicist wants to talk about the Yankees and Red Sox again.. that's the greatest thing I've heard in awhle... umpire having his own personal publicist lol

And, it has about as much to do with baseball as the fines/suspensions and post game interviews. It is all a waste of time and a diversion from the situation at hand. Far be it, that they stick to the situation. Once Buehrle started personal attacks on West about his CD, I stopped listening.

It and the publicist have nothing to do with this. It is only a distraction from the real issue: Buehrle got caught breaking a rule but wants to blame the umpire for catching him. It all stems from Buehrle.

So what if he has a publicist? Who cares? Only those looking for reasons not to like him and hate umpires for no real reason.

I thought this was "Ask the Umpire" section, not "Blame the Umpire" section. He did his job though an unpopular ruling, which should be none of an umpire's concern.

He very well may have balked twice, and I'm eager to hear on what basis. If Buehrle hadn't of acted like a child from the start and simply asked West "What'd I do?" this may not have happened. But this isn't a new move, he's had the same move for a while. And I base my speculation on the kind of player Buehrle has been and the type of umpire that West has become. Does anyone know what he did to balk?

quote:

Originally posted by Kumi:
But this isn't a new move, he's had the same move for a while. And I base my speculation on the kind of player Buehrle has been and the type of umpire that West has become. Does anyone know what he did to balk?

His move isn't new, nor is he the only one to use it. The problem is that it is a border line move that he sometimes executes legally, and sometimes he does not. There is a tendency to lean in towards home at the beginning of the move to first...balk, or twitch the front leg....balk, or step more to home than to first....balk.

When you choose such a move, you will get caught from time to time. Two umpires caught him in the same game.

As to what "West has become"...according to Ozzie:

"He's the type of guy that wants to control the game, and to me is one of the best umpires in the game, no doubt,"

Michael

Going ballistic doesn't usually get me ejected because the umpire is usually in the wrong and he knows it AND I do not argue balls and strikes--that is a now win situation

What ballistic does for me is usually get me the correct calls the rest of the way---

MRUMPIRE

Or did Joe West decide to do what he did to get Ozzie hot under the collar---

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Michael

Going ballistic doesn't usually get me ejected because the umpire is usually in the wrong and he knows it AND I do not argue balls and strikes--that is a now win situation

What ballistic does for me is usually get me the correct calls the rest of the way---

You're kidding right? You honestly believe because you went out and screamed at an umpire he is going to change a future call in your favor. Did he change the current "wrong" call? The call may have been right but he doesn't have the training to take care of business.
An umpire calls plays as he sees them, it makes no difference how much you have yelled or chirped about previous calls.
Do umpires make mistakes, absolutely. Do umpires kick rules, absolutely. Is that an excuse for you to go out and scream at him, absolutely not. With a trained umpire, I would venture to say that 95% of missed calls are because the players screwed up and caused the play to blow up.
This thread started with they ought to dump all the MLB umpires and start over. MLB umpires are watched every game. They have film of every plate they do. They constantly get updates on mistakes or things to watch for. I believe the accuracy is 98% or above correct. When the players and managers come anywhere close to that number then come back and talk to me.
I realize it is apples and oranges but most pitchers are 50/50 on strikes. Batters fail 65 to 70% of the time. The fielding percentages are better but nowhere in the 98% range league wide. Baserunning mistakes are higher than you would think. Rules knowledge is 20% tops.

Michael

No I am not kidding at all !!!!

Ballistic means a lot of things to many

Usually when I get ejected it is because I want it to spur the team on or because the ump truly blew the call

Where did I say the ump changed the call// Read what is posted not what you want to

You guys in blue truly have an eyesight problem or you just want to read what you want--I said I don't argue balls and strikes --most times it is a call he did not ask for assistance when he should have. EGO !!!!

You website umpire-empire says it all for me

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Michael

No I am not kidding at all !!!!

Ballistic means a lot of things to many

Usually when I get ejected it is because I want it to spur the team on or because the ump truly blew the call

Where did I say the ump changed the call// Read what is posted not what you want to

You guys in blue truly have an eyesight problem or you just want to read what you want--I said I don't argue balls and strikes --most times it is a call he did not ask for assistance when he should have. EGO !!!!

You website umpire-empire says it all for me

This is complete BS. Why don't you reread his post. He asked if it changed the current call. It was a question. And, he didn't say you were arguing balls and strikes. Arguing judgment calls can get the same treatment.

Also, not asking for help has NOTHING to do with ego. It's amazing how many times I see this from those who do not have any clue about anything that goes on. Instead of getting the info which is available, they just make useless, pathetic, baseless statements and they are announcers/managers/players/fans of baseball. Amazing how similiar their completely "off the mark" they usually seem to be. And, this thread has shown that especially for you.

Who is the blind one with a reading problem? I'm starting to think others have a point to what they say about and to you. Jimmy isn't the only one. It's not the umpires here. It is you. Did an umpire steal your significant other(just in case, to be PC for you)? Was mommy an umpire groupie? Did she leave you for an umpire? Did an umpire take you behind the bleachers and beat your a$$? I mean, your senseless, baseless accusations are pathetic at best. What caused it?

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
You're kidding right? You honestly believe because you went out and screamed at an umpire he is going to change a future call in your favor.

He isn't apparently. He thinks he changed the umpire instead of the fact that maybe his team actually changed and started to play better.

It's the umpire's fault, not his or his team's fault. They just play the game, they don't decide the outcome by how they play.

That appears to be his mindset. Heck, he thinks umpires are part of the field. What does that tell you about how much he actually knows anything about the game?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Michael

Going ballistic doesn't usually get me ejected because the umpire is usually in the wrong and he knows it AND I do not argue balls and strikes--that is a now win situation

What ballistic does for me is usually get me the correct calls the rest of the way---

as much as I am against over moderation of threads, I believe we have come to the end of the value that this topic might have.

as the moderator, I am deleting and closing this thread...anyone have a problem with it, contact me....