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quote:
Originally posted by deemax:
quote:
The right way is the "W" that you see in Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson. The wrong way is the "M" or Inverted W that you see in Mark Prior.


There is nothing wrong with the M or W. You always use Mark Prior as an example but always fail to mention the John Smoltz's and Don Drysdale's of the world. Using Prior as a reason why the M is bad is equal to me saying Rich Harden is an example of why you shouldnt use the W.

M or W do NOT make an arm actions. Arm actions are more complicated then what height the elbow reaches.
IMO a crusade against the M is a waist since only 10%ish of pitchers bring their elbow up to that position anyway, and of that % the M's get hurt as much of the W's....risk reward...arms get hurt and always will.... unless fastpitch softball style comes into play. Wink


Chris Carpenter is getting ready to go under the knife again. As someone who's opinion I respect, what do you think of his arm action? I don't think he's an "M" guy like TPG dislikes.
quote:
quote:Originally posted by LOW337:
it's bad advice to try teach something you cannot teach....Like make sure your belly button is facing the catcher a split second before your torso delivers the baseball.......insane..

Why can't you teach this? I have multiple times.

It starts out with teaching people to stride sideways to the target and then opening up the hips just before the Glove Side foot plants.


It starts out with teaching people to stride sideways to the target and then opening up the hips just before the Glove Side foot plants.

TPainG.... It's statements like this that continually tell me you simply haven't thrown enough or taught enough, or understand enough about what needs to take place within the body/mechanics in order for a thrower to throw to their highest velocity potential. Efficiency is the name of the game. The statement in bold above illustrates mechanics that yeild very poor efficiency because you've left out key variables and added too many unknowns. Your statement above in bold is a generic statement made by the masses of instructors.....you're just regurgitating their believes and not finding out what really needs to take place in order to produce a throwers maximum velocity.


.....swing the gate open........

Last edited by cap_n
[QUOTE]Originally posted by thepainguy:
Arm slot is simply a function of shoulder tilt. That's why you see that same lower body action in guys regardless of arm slot.]



This is not totally true. We had 2 kids on our High School team that threw directly over handed with no shoulder tilt. I am in the process of trying to change one of them, because I know throwing overhanded causes impingement(spelling). There are also people who believe in "Rock and Fire" with very little torquing of the hips late in the delivery.
Last edited by micmeister
When all else fails baffle them with BS....

TPG said:

quote:
Power is generated by stretching the muscles of the core a second before they contract. This is known as the Stretch Shortening Cycle. It increases the power of a muscle.


Not true at least not in a practical sense. Power is defined as rate of work performed. Work as applied to moving an object such as a baseball can be defined as applying force over a distance. Power is the quantity of work performed per unit of time. The power of a muscle is simply the ability of the muscle to produce force through a movement (distance) over some period of time.

The stretch shortening cycle action (eccentric muscle action) action produces negative power, negative power being work performed in the opposite direction of the subsequent contraction. This assumes that positive work is defined as work which takes place in the direction of the subsequent concentric muscle action (subsequent to the stretch shortening action).

From: Biomechanics in Sport: Performance Enhancement and Injury Prevention By Vladimir M. Zatsiorsky

quote:
Intensity (or the rate) of eccentric action can be conveniently defined as the product Pm = Fm x V, . where F. is muscle force applied to the load, Vm is muscle velocity (or the component of velocity at the point of force application along the line of muscle action), and Pm is power produced by muscle force (or muscle power). If force Fm is smaller than the weight of the load Fr, the load will be moving in the direction opposite to the exerted muscle force (i.e. in a negative direction). In this example, muscle will be performing eccentric action, and muscle power will be negative (Fig. 4.1a). The amount of eccentric action can be defined as the time integral of muscle power Pm, which equals negative work done by the muscle force, Wm By similar methods, the rate and amount of concentric action can be defined as positive muscle power and positive muscle work, respectively (the product Fm x Vm is positive because Vm has the same positive direction as Fm; Fig. 4.lb). If muscle force does not produce power and does no work (i.e. the muscle force is equal to weight of the load and 1/m=0; Fig. 4.Ic), the muscle performs isometric action.


All of which is to say that power is simply a matter of applying force over a distance over a period of time. Power is NOT stretch shortening cycle. The stretch shortening cycle may help to increase power. But any muscle group that creates force over a distance over a period of time produces power. Saying that power is only generated or is exclusive to a certain group of muscles is misleading.

Based on the principle of the kinetic sequence or kinetic chain, every segment in the kinetic chain (toes to fingertips) contributes to throwing power. And like any chain the strength of that chain is only as strong as its weakest link. And in reality the link that has the greatest responsibility for power production as defined by applying force to the baseball is the arm complex, i.e. the final link in the chain.

Empirically (common sense?) this is borne out by the number of arm injuries as compared to the number of midsection injuries i.e. injuries to the muscles/connective tissues of the shoulder-elbow as compared to the number of injuries to muscles/connective tissues out of the hips-upper torso.

Next time more baffle them with BS:

TPG said:

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The strides converts linear motion into rotational motion.
wrstdude
quote:
Chris Carpenter is getting ready to go under the knife again. As someone who's opinion I respect, what do you think of his arm action? I don't think he's an "M" guy like TPG dislikes.


I like Chris Carpenter's arm action and IMO his upcoming TJ surgery is not a result of it. Im not a huge fan of his tempo, but he repeats his delivery well and is a proven winner when healthy. I am a fan of his as a pitcher however. He is a gamer and has got it done on the biggest of stages.
A "post script" to my previous post regarding throwing power and where it comes from as well as addressing:

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Originally posted by cap_n:

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And how are you able to quantify the percentages of power….80% core, the majority of the remainder from the stride?


quote:
Tom House has studied this and what he says is consistent with the research I've done.


From "Body Segment Contributions to Sport Skill Performance: Two Contrasting Approaches" by Doris I Miller, University of Washington, Research Quarterly For Exercise And Sport, 1980, Vol 51, No. 1, pp 219-233

quote:
Throwing

Several attempts have been made to investigate segmental contributions to overarm throwing using the immobilization protocol. Broer and Zernicke (1979, p. 254) reported that approximately 50% of the release velocity of tennis balls thrown by two female physical educators was the result of the preliminary step and body rotation while the remainder came from the shoulder, elbow, wrist and fingers.

Toyoshima, Hoshikawa, Miya****a, and Oguri (1974), who had seven adult males throw hard rubber balls weighing 100, 200, 300, 400 and 500 g, found a not unexpected negative correlation between ball velocity and weight. The contribution of body segments, however, appeared to be independent of the weight of the ball. By comparison to the velocity of a normal throw (100%), the velocity without a step was 84%, With the lower body, upper body, and upper arm immobilized, ball velocities were 64%, 53% and 43% of the criterion, respectively.

Similar restraint conditions were imposed by Hoshikawa and Toyoshima (1976) upon four adult males who threw a 250 g hard rubber ball. The ball velocities at release without the initial step, without hip and trunk rotation and using the forearm alone were 82%, 50%, and 37%, respectively, for the preferred and 88%, 60%, and 45% for the nonpreferred hand. Following 15 weeks of training, the release velocity for the nonpreferred hand increased but the relative coniributioiis of the segments remained essentially the same.

Peterson (1973), investigating throwing in 20 highly skilled baseball players. reported the following contributions to baseball velocity calculated over a 9.15m distance immediately following release: legs and hips 37%, trunk and shoulder rotation 15%, arm 24%, and hand 24%.

Thus, the consensus of research employing the restraint protocol in overarm throwing is that approximately half the release velocity of the ball is a result of the initial step and rotation of the trunk.

In fast bowling in cricket, an action in which there is a complete rotation of thehumerus in the sagittal plane and in which flexion of the elbow is illegal, Davis andBlanksby (1976) indicated that for 19 skilled bowlers the run-up contributed 19% tothe total ball velocity at release, leg action and hip rotation 23%, trunk flexion and rotation of the shoulder girdle 11%, arm action 41%, and the hand 5%. Again the importance of the run-up and trunk rotation in determining the speed of the ball leaving the performer’s hand was evident.


Which implys that about 50% of a baseball's velocity (power production/conversion) is due to the shoulder to finger links of the kinetic chain.

Next time:

TPG's "The strides converts linear motion into rotational motion."
quote:
Originally posted by cap_n:
quote:
I am in the process of trying to change one of them, because I know throwing overhanded causes impingement(spelling).
Before you change someone, check out Mike Mussina first.





Cap_n,

Do you have any straight on or straight from behind video of him you can post for me? These two kids' bicep almost grazes their ears, is his that drastic?
quote:
Originally posted by deemax:
There is nothing wrong with the M or W. You always use Mark Prior as an example but always fail to mention the John Smoltz's and Don Drysdale's of the world.


First, Smoltz doesn't make the M to the degree that Prior did. IMO that explains their different fates.

Second, Drysdale's career was cut short by shoulder problems. However, he didn't make the M as much as Prior did.

If you ranked them in terms of degree of the M, I would rank them Smoltz, Drysdale, and Prior. I don't think it's a coincidence that their length of their careers follow that order.
quote:
Originally posted by wrstdude:
Chris Carpenter is getting ready to go under the knife again. As someone who's opinion I respect, what do you think of his arm action? I don't think he's an "M" guy like TPG dislikes.


Carpenter doesn't make the M. Instead, he does something a little different, but similarly bad. The best way to describe it is an Inverted Goalpost. BJ Ryan does the same thing.









This increases the distance over which, and the force with which, the Pitching Arm Side upper arm externally rotates, which increases the load on both the elbow and the shoulder.

You'll notice that I was the only person in the country to express concern about the health of Carpenter's arm at the beginning of the season (although I thought his shoulder problems would recur first).
Last edited by thepainguy
quote:
Originally posted by micmeister:
This is not totally true. We had 2 kids on our High School team that threw directly over handed with no shoulder tilt. I am in the process of trying to change one of them, because I know throwing overhanded causes impingement(spelling). There are also people who believe in "Rock and Fire" with very little torquing of the hips late in the delivery.


I would love to see film of this.

Until then, I doubt it.
quote:
Originally posted by deemax:
I like Chris Carpenter's arm action and IMO his upcoming TJ surgery is not a result of it. Im not a huge fan of his tempo, but he repeats his delivery well and is a proven winner when healthy. I am a fan of his as a pitcher however. He is a gamer and has got it done on the biggest of stages.


Carpenter has had one injury after another.

IMO, his recent 5-year deal will turn out to be a disaster. That's what I suggested back in March.
quote:
Originally posted by still_learning:
Which implys that about 50% of a baseball's velocity (power production/conversion) is due to the shoulder to finger links of the kinetic chain.


First, at different velocities, different muscle groups are recruited into the throw.

Second, exactly what muscle groups do you proposed are involved in this supposed 50 percent?
quote:
Originally posted by deemax:
Capn, Mussina tilts his shoulders quite a bit.



What Mussina does is quite standard and perfectly safe.

I won't believe any claims about what someone is doing without seeing a clip.

Many people have been wrong about things like arm slot.

Also, people can do different things depending on the velocity or the throw.
Last edited by thepainguy
TPG, what does all this blabber have to do with increasing velo ?? I would suggeat any pitcher interested in gaining a few mph take a good look at increasing their running work, alternating distance and short sprint/hill work/steps. While the legs / core may not be the primary source of velocity, it is nearly impossible to attain and maintain velocity without a solid, explosive base. Leg work can only help a pitcher.
Last edited by Yankeelvr
TPG
quote:
If you ranked them in terms of degree of the M, I would rank them Smoltz, Drysdale, and Prior. I don't think it's a coincidence that their length of their careers follow that order.


This is the least comprehensive study you have ever done.

If I made a list of W guys and ranked them amount of W vs. years pitched would it mean anything?....No. The same is true for the M list.
Last edited by deemax
This is what we found from our own experience. Every pitching coach is different and there are so many different opinions but what it comes down to is pitching mechanics with strength/conditioning and what is the most comfortable for the pitcher because everyone is different.

It took 3 long years to find the best program and yet it was pitching out of the stretch, hitting your spots with command and leg work were very important in adding 8 mph to an 84 mph fastball now tops out at 92 mph.

Long toss really didn't do it but it is a part of it - running, arm exercises and working on command and deception were more important in this case but once again everyone is different. That is why pitching out of the stretch was different but best because it is more important to be in control and have movement than to throw 98 mph. It is good to have a video to see the player from all angles and then have someone qualified to break it down and then do a 2nd and 3rd video to see the difference.

The players in MLB that had success for years Clemens, Ryan, Maddux, Glavine had many things in common most important was long careers without injury, work ethic and ability to make adjustments.

Maddux is the best example of success because he didn't throw 95 but he had command of all his pitches and won his last 100 games with a fastball at 82 - 86 mph. He is a master of pitching with movement and control of all his pitches.
Last edited by Sportsplus5
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
quote:
Originally posted by thepainguy:
he didn't make the M as much as Prior did.


I've posted a clip that demonstrates Prior's problem. It has nothing to do with his M.

And thepainguy isn't smart enough to know or "see" what he's doing that is the cause of his problem.



Chameleon, Does anyone else do this as much as Prior? I have been looking and cant find any one similar.
quote:
Pedro's elbow clearly doesn't get as high as Prior's elbow does. That's an important difference.
TPainG....To paraphrase you from another board, you don't know what you're talking about. What you're saying is clearly NOT the difference. This proves to me that you know nothing about rotational vs linear (or any combination thereof) throwing mechanics.

quote:
Originally posted by deemax:
Both elbows peak at the bottom of their hat line.

There is something else in these clips that is far more detrimental in Priors case.


Their torsos are tilted forward at different angles, so this isn't a valid comparison.

Also, a critical difference is that Pedro's elbow drops as his shoulders start to turn while Prior's elbow stays relatively higher. That leaves Prior more vulnerable to an impingement injury.
chris
quote:
Their torsos are tilted forward at different angles, so this isn't a valid comparison.

Also, a critical difference is that Pedro's elbow drops as his shoulders start to turn while Prior's elbow stays relatively higher. That leaves Prior more vulnerable to an impingement injury


I have pitched with a shoulder that felt like it had a nail pounded through it. At times the pain was so bad I thought I was going to puke. Never once did my arm hurt in the backstroke...It hurt when I got my arm up. IMO your arm doesnt get hurt in its backstroke.

Where is there more strain on the shoulder? Here


Or here.
Last edited by deemax
quote:
Originally posted by deemax:
I have pitched with a shoulder that felt like it had a nail pounded through it. At times the pain was so bad I thought I was going to puke. Never once did my arm hurt in the backstroke...It hurt when I got my arm up. IMO your arm doesnt get hurt in its backstroke.


I agree.


quote:
Originally posted by deemax:
Where is there more strain on the shoulder? Here


This isn't injurious in and of itself because the force on the shoulder isn't that great. The problem is that it sets you up for problems down the line.


quote:
Originally posted by deemax:
Or here.


Definitely here, because the shoulders are starting to turn, which causes the Pitching Arm Side upper arm to rapidly externally rotate.

The problem with what Mark Prior is doing in this photo is that he is rotating his shoulders with his Pitching Arm Side elbow still quite elevated. I have a low opinion of Anthony Reyes because he does basically the same thing.

If you look at Maddux, Johnson, and Ryan, their Pitching Arm Side elbows are much lower at this point.







Again, the problem isn't with the M/Inverted W, but what it enables.
quote:
Originally posted by thepainguy:What Mussina does is quite standard and perfectly safe.
Chris. I'm going to assume that you really didn't mean this. The more I look at the pitching motion(s), the more I'm convinced that it's inherently unsafe. We're asking the tissues involved to work right at the edge of what they can withstand. The odds are definitely with you when you predict that a certain pitcher will eventually be injured. Predicting the ones who won't is the real magic.
Last edited by dm59
quote:
Originally posted by dm59:
quote:
Originally posted by thepainguy:What Mussina does is quite standard and perfectly safe.
Chris. I'm going to assume that you really didn't mean this. The more I look at the pitching motion(s), the more I'm convinced that it's inherently unsafe. We're asking the tissues involved to work right at the edge of what they can withstand. The odds are definitely with you when you predict that a certain pitcher will eventually be injured. Predicting the ones who won't is the real magic.


This is exactly what I meant.

Why do you think what Mussina is doing is unsafe?

I would think that his 17-year career is proof that it is safe.

What Mussina is doing is safe because, while his arm slot is high, it's due to the sharp tilt of his shoulders. As a result, the greater risk is actually to his lumbar spine than to his arm.
Last edited by thepainguy
quote:
Originally posted by thepainguy:
quote:
Originally posted by cap_n:
What you're saying is clearly NOT the difference. This proves to me that you know nothing about rotational vs linear (or any combination thereof) throwing mechanics.
Please explain.
If you don't know the difference between rotational and linear throwing mechanics, then indeed, you don't know what you're saying about the clip of Martinez and Prior. You're missing the whole point of the clip because the only thing you're able to "see" revolves around arm actions and your supposed ability to predict are injuries based on high elbow postures when loading.

Last edited by cap_n
quote:
Originally posted by cap_n:
quote:
Originally posted by thepainguy:
quote:
Originally posted by cap_n:
What you're saying is clearly NOT the difference. This proves to me that you know nothing about rotational vs linear (or any combination thereof) throwing mechanics.
Please explain.
If you don't know the difference between rotational and linear throwing mechanics, then indeed, you don't know what you're saying about the clip of Martinez and Prior. You're missing the whole point of the clip because the only thing you're able to "see" revolves around arm actions and your supposed ability to predict are injuries based on high elbow postures when loading.



Please explain.
quote:
Originally posted by thepainguy:
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:


Pedro's elbow clearly doesn't get as high as Prior's elbow does. That's an important difference.

Having said that, Pedro has been out a year with Rotator Cuff problems. If you look at his current arm action, his W is much more pronounced.




I see a couple of slight differences, but the biggest differences are in lower body actions. Pedro steps in the direction of third base (which creates more momentum for torque rotation) and Prior steps almost directly to the plate, Pedros leg lift is higher. The one other thing I see in the arm action is that the ball is facing more to 3rd in Priors delivery and Pedro's is more to 2nd base. Prior's elbow is pretty much level with the ground. I would think this would put major strain on the elbow.
quote:
Originally posted by thepainguy:
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:


Pedro's elbow clearly doesn't get as high as Prior's elbow does. That's an important difference.

Having said that, Pedro has been out a year with Rotator Cuff problems. If you look at his current arm action, his W is much more pronounced.


See what I mean. TPG misses the real issue.

If I can get moderated for being an a$$hole, surely tpg can be moderated for acting like he knows something about which he knows very little.....throwing/pitching.
Last edited by Chameleon
quote:
Originally posted by thepainguy:
Why do you think what Mussina is doing is unsafe?
Read my post. I suggest that pitching in itself is very high risk. I would be very, very hesitant to say that ANY mechanics are "safe". It's a high risk activity and he's beaten the odds. How many haven't? So, you're willing to put yourself on the line by telling some kid that if he pitches like Mussina, you'll gaurantee that he'll not injure his shoulder or elbow?
quote:
Originally posted by micmeister:
I see a couple of slight differences, but the biggest differences are in lower body actions. Pedro steps in the direction of third base (which creates more momentum for torque rotation) and Prior steps almost directly to the plate, Pedros leg lift is higher.


While this is true, it might be irrelevant.

You don't know the context of the two pitches. Pedro could have been going from the wind-up while Prior could have been using a slide step due to a runner's being on base.

You have to control those variables if you want to reach a valid conclusion.
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