quote:Originally posted by Chameleon:
See what I mean. TPG misses the real issue.
Please enlighten us with what we are missing.
Please enlighten us with what we are missing.
Please enlighten us with what we are missing.
TPainG-
This is what you are missing
You claim to be a scout for a major league team, yet you can only see what your ego allows you to see, not what's in front of you. People like you who say they're pro pitching teachers, or pro major league scouts are a joke when it comes to figuring out pro level throwing. You ride the shirt tails of others pretending you know whats going on, urging and tantalizing until you get the answer you want to hear, and then claim it's your own idea......this will never happen here with me. If you can't see what's happening in this clip, then you have absolutely no business posting on this public forum. You're better suited for posting on your own web space taking up less space here.
I do not intend on entertaining you any longer....you simply haven't put in the required time to have meaningful conversations with most here BECAUSE you claim to be a scout for major league baseball.
This is what you are missing
You claim to be a scout for a major league team, yet you can only see what your ego allows you to see, not what's in front of you. People like you who say they're pro pitching teachers, or pro major league scouts are a joke when it comes to figuring out pro level throwing. You ride the shirt tails of others pretending you know whats going on, urging and tantalizing until you get the answer you want to hear, and then claim it's your own idea......this will never happen here with me. If you can't see what's happening in this clip, then you have absolutely no business posting on this public forum. You're better suited for posting on your own web space taking up less space here.
I do not intend on entertaining you any longer....you simply haven't put in the required time to have meaningful conversations with most here BECAUSE you claim to be a scout for major league baseball.
quote:Originally posted by thepainguy:quote:Originally posted by micmeister:
I see a couple of slight differences, but the biggest differences are in lower body actions. Pedro steps in the direction of third base (which creates more momentum for torque rotation) and Prior steps almost directly to the plate, Pedros leg lift is higher.
While this is true, it might be irrelevant.
You don't know the context of the two pitches. Pedro could have been going from the wind-up while Prior could have been using a slide step due to a runner's being on base.
You have to control those variables if you want to reach a valid conclusion.
True, but that doesn't explain his forearm being parallel to the ground and the ball facing 3b when the ball starts to come foreward.
This is what I mean....you haven't a clue what is really going on in the clip, or the real differences between the two throwers.quote:While this is true, it might be irrelevant.
You don't know the context of the two pitches. Pedro could have been going from the wind-up while Prior could have been using a slide step due to a runner's being on base.
You have to control those variables if you want to reach a valid conclusion.
Your answers and/or statements do not deserve responses.....you waste a lot of time of others that feel the need to illustrate why you are so wrong about your thoughts...............and the continued explaning gets very, very old.
I moderated myself.
cap'n
You ought to live in St. Louis. Then you could get the full benefit of tpg as he calls into talk radio and spews his nonsense about pitching. He makes sure he identifies himself as a scout to get credibility and then "throws up" all over the radio.
I know the truth about this "scout" stuff. I posted it a few months ago.
cap'n
You ought to live in St. Louis. Then you could get the full benefit of tpg as he calls into talk radio and spews his nonsense about pitching. He makes sure he identifies himself as a scout to get credibility and then "throws up" all over the radio.
I know the truth about this "scout" stuff. I posted it a few months ago.
As someone who visits this site simply looking for insight to help his son develop, can someone please explain to me what the key difference is between the Pedro and Prior mechanics? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to air on a public forum. TIA.
quote:Originally posted by PitcherDad:
As someone who visits this site simply looking for insight to help his son develop, can someone please explain to me what the key difference is between the Pedro and Prior mechanics? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to air on a public forum. TIA.
PitcherDad,
You have a PM.
I would like that explanation as well.
Ask tpg....lol
I guess I might as well, since he is the only one talking about the topic. I read a couple of your old posts on hitting, and I liked some of your opinions-you could probably help a lot of us help our kids. Too bad you don't do that anymore.
wassup Chameleon.
Reading this is tough, Tardo on steroids.
Reading this is tough, Tardo on steroids.
quote:Posted July 24, 2007 01:20 AM Hide Post
I guess I might as well, since he is the only one talking about the topic. I read a couple of your old posts on hitting, and I liked some of your opinions-you could probably help a lot of us help our kids. Too bad you don't do that anymore.
How true that is....same thing happened on a hitting topic a while back. One guy going into detail why he likes what he likes, etc., and 3 or 4 others essentially calling him an a** while PMing each other the real truth to what the heck they're talking about.
The guys who I've seen tout them selves as the true experts have rarely actually detailed what they believe in so a novice can understand it.....instead they simply criticize the one/two guys who are actually on topic.
Frustrating AND intimidating.
Understanding and explaining the difference between the two deliveries, answering cap_n's question regarding the difference between Pedro and Prior, is a "final examination" question for those who profess to be pitching mechanics "gurus".
Understanding what the question is a more importantly what the possible answers are requires far more than just spending time on forums proclaiming your pitching mechanics expertise. Or that you are a scout for a major-league team. There is virtually no correlation between MLB scouting and MLB player development.
In the case of Pedro versus Prior, it helps understand where Prior "came from" with respect to his pitching instruction if one is the answer cap_n's question.
Here is an excerpt from a Tom House biographical sketch
http://www.hitrunscore.com/tom-house-biography.html
[QUOTE]Regarding Mark Prior, the 22-year-old right-hander who is House's top young protege "Mark is probably the best of the young generation of pitchers at getting his body closer to th
Understanding what the question is a more importantly what the possible answers are requires far more than just spending time on forums proclaiming your pitching mechanics expertise. Or that you are a scout for a major-league team. There is virtually no correlation between MLB scouting and MLB player development.
In the case of Pedro versus Prior, it helps understand where Prior "came from" with respect to his pitching instruction if one is the answer cap_n's question.
Here is an excerpt from a Tom House biographical sketch
http://www.hitrunscore.com/tom-house-biography.html
[QUOTE]Regarding Mark Prior, the 22-year-old right-hander who is House's top young protege "Mark is probably the best of the young generation of pitchers at getting his body closer to th
still_learning,
I really enjoy your posts. Please continue posting.
I especially like your final comment.
IMO... There is a difference in what works the best and what is the safest! Major League pitchers don't all throw exactly the same way. If there was only one way (the safest way) many of them wouldn't have become Major League pitchers.
There is usually risk involved in success. Some could look at Prior as a failure and others could say... For a period of time he was among the best.
Question... Would he ever have been among the best if he threw differently?
I really enjoy your posts. Please continue posting.
I especially like your final comment.
quote:So, what's the answer?
We have no idea, and that's frightening.
IMO... There is a difference in what works the best and what is the safest! Major League pitchers don't all throw exactly the same way. If there was only one way (the safest way) many of them wouldn't have become Major League pitchers.
There is usually risk involved in success. Some could look at Prior as a failure and others could say... For a period of time he was among the best.
Question... Would he ever have been among the best if he threw differently?
quote:So, what's the answer?
We have no idea, and that's frightening.
quote:Originally posted by still_learning:
So, what's the answer?
We have no idea, and that's frightening.
quote:You ought to live in St. Louis. Then you could get the full benefit of tpg as he calls into talk radio and spews his nonsense about pitching. He makes sure he identifies himself as a scout to get credibility and then "throws up" all over the radio.
Doesn't surprise me . I do not like attacking someone but he is dillusional. What he could do is a statistical analysis of his theories which could suggest that a guy who uses the M or W in his motion is likely to have arm problems a % ot the time . This would give a probability of a certain % that you will or won't have arm issues.
His unscientific motivated conclusions without any reaserch or model is clearly pig muck.
quote:Originally posted by cap_n:
This is what I mean....you haven't a clue what is really going on in the clip, or the real differences between the two throwers.
What's with all the mystery?
Why not answer the question and enlighten us?
In my experience, guys who rely on keeping things mysterious, and never letting people in on the secret, are very often full of it.
If I want mystery, I'll go to the movies.
quote:Originally posted by dm59:Read my post. I suggest that pitching in itself is very high risk. I would be very, very hesitant to say that ANY mechanics are "safe". It's a high risk activity and he's beaten the odds. How many haven't? So, you're willing to put yourself on the line by telling some kid that if he pitches like Mussina, you'll gaurantee that he'll not injure his shoulder or elbow?quote:Originally posted by thepainguy:
Why do you think what Mussina is doing is unsafe?
Shoulder yes.
Elbow no.
Of course that assumes that he duplicates Mussina's arm action and also properly conditions his arm.
What Mussina does is consistent with what you see in...
- Maddux
- Glavine
- Ryan
- Johnson
quote:Originally posted by micmeister:
True, but that doesn't explain his forearm being parallel to the ground and the ball facing 3b when the ball starts to come foreward.
If you're suggesting that Mark Prior has a major timing problem (e.g. habitual rushing), then I completely agree (and have said so before).
At the moment Mark Prior's shoulders start turning, his forearm is horizontal. This will increase the distance (to 180 degrees) and force with which his Pitching Arm Side upper arm externally rotates and puts a tremendous load on the shoulder (especially the Labrum).
In contrast, Pedro's shoulders do not start turning until his forearm is vertical. That means he only gets 90 degrees of external rotation.
Kerry Wood has the same basic problem as Mark Prior, which I pointed out back in 2006...
- What Rushing Looks Like - Kerry Wood
So does Anthony Reyes, as I pointed out back in 2006...
- Antony Reyes - A Mechanical Trainwreck
quote:Originally posted by Chameleon:
You ought to live in St. Louis. Then you could get the full benefit of tpg as he calls into talk radio and spews his nonsense about pitching. He makes sure he identifies himself as a scout to get credibility and then "throws up" all over the radio.
If you were actually listening, I suggested that Chris Carpenter's problems were actually much more serious than people thought. Turns out I was right.
I also pointed out the problems with Anthony Reyes' mechanics and that there was a high level of risk that he would fall apart.
O'Leary
Give up the ghost---guys like you are a dime a dozen on the internet--"in my experience", "I think", "in my opinion" LOL
we can all read , do research and say the same things you say---but at the end of the day what does it mean ? NADA !!!!!!
Give up the ghost---guys like you are a dime a dozen on the internet--"in my experience", "I think", "in my opinion" LOL
we can all read , do research and say the same things you say---but at the end of the day what does it mean ? NADA !!!!!!
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
we can all read , do research and say the same things you say---but at the end of the day what does it mean ? NADA !!!!!!
It's hard to solve a problem if you start out assuming it can't be solved.
Kind of kills your motivation.
TPG
I dont agree with this. I have seen close to exact arm actions and work ethic of Mussina end up on the DL with a sore shoulder.
quote:Shoulder yes.
Elbow no.
Of course that assumes that he duplicates Mussina's arm action and also properly conditions his arm.
What Mussina does is consistent with what you see in...
I dont agree with this. I have seen close to exact arm actions and work ethic of Mussina end up on the DL with a sore shoulder.
Chris
Motivation comes from thinking on ones own , not regurgitating what others have posted on their sites or written in their books
"I think". "my opinion" etc ---duh !!!!!!!!!
Motivation comes from thinking on ones own , not regurgitating what others have posted on their sites or written in their books
"I think". "my opinion" etc ---duh !!!!!!!!!
Pain...................you don't know do you? Well blow me down...argh, argh, argh.
So you resort elementary schoolyard tactics as well...too bad. It's been my experience that this kind of tactic is used by those that aren't getting their way or don't know what they're doing hoping that they provoke the knee jerk reaction to get to the answer they needed in the first place.
TPainG........hold your breath, the answer is coming real soon.
BTW, Prior doesn't rush. You have failed to "see" what this clip is offering. Even at side by side, you can't recognize the underlying differences…you only see and state the obvious which illustrates your limitations. Plus, your stills on your site are so-o-o-o-o uninformative, and your explanations are very suspect because in order to REALLY qualify stills in succession................you being a pro scout and advisor and all, should already know that any meaningful analysis of a high level athlete can't be done in increments of 1/15 or 1/30 of a second, especially when a ballistic movement is involved.
I suppose it's time I should warn all of the parents and coaches out here that if they want to protect their child from a throwing injury, whatever you do, DO NOT CHOOSE JOHN SMOLTZ as an example to emulate. And if your student is close to him now, CHANGE him quick. He habitually rushes his throws. And because of this...........one day.........I predict...................John Smoltz will retire a very, very wealthy man.
Listen.....I apologize to all for allowing this thread to be high jacked. I keep telling myself that if I see this happening, I’ll close it down……………then, the little guy on my shoulder says “don’t be an a$$.....freedom of the press, be politically correct, let everyone have their say……..toutchie, toutchie, feelie, feelie and all that cra……stuff.” Someone else do it for me when they feel the time is right.
Thanks!
quote:Originally posted by thepainguy:What's with all the mystery? Why not answer the question and enlighten us? In my experience, guys who rely on keeping things mysterious, and never letting people in on the secret, are very often full of it.quote:Originally posted by cap_n:
This is what I mean....you haven't a clue what is really going on in the clip, or the real differences between the two throwers.
So you resort elementary schoolyard tactics as well...too bad. It's been my experience that this kind of tactic is used by those that aren't getting their way or don't know what they're doing hoping that they provoke the knee jerk reaction to get to the answer they needed in the first place.
TPainG........hold your breath, the answer is coming real soon.
BTW, Prior doesn't rush. You have failed to "see" what this clip is offering. Even at side by side, you can't recognize the underlying differences…you only see and state the obvious which illustrates your limitations. Plus, your stills on your site are so-o-o-o-o uninformative, and your explanations are very suspect because in order to REALLY qualify stills in succession................you being a pro scout and advisor and all, should already know that any meaningful analysis of a high level athlete can't be done in increments of 1/15 or 1/30 of a second, especially when a ballistic movement is involved.
I suppose it's time I should warn all of the parents and coaches out here that if they want to protect their child from a throwing injury, whatever you do, DO NOT CHOOSE JOHN SMOLTZ as an example to emulate. And if your student is close to him now, CHANGE him quick. He habitually rushes his throws. And because of this...........one day.........I predict...................John Smoltz will retire a very, very wealthy man.
Listen.....I apologize to all for allowing this thread to be high jacked. I keep telling myself that if I see this happening, I’ll close it down……………then, the little guy on my shoulder says “don’t be an a$$.....freedom of the press, be politically correct, let everyone have their say……..toutchie, toutchie, feelie, feelie and all that cra……stuff.” Someone else do it for me when they feel the time is right.
Thanks!
quote:Originally posted by cap_n:
Pain...................you don't know do you? Well blow me down...argh, argh, argh.quote:Originally posted by thepainguy:What's with all the mystery? Why not answer the question and enlighten us? In my experience, guys who rely on keeping things mysterious, and never letting people in on the secret, are very often full of it.quote:Originally posted by cap_n:
This is what I mean....you haven't a clue what is really going on in the clip, or the real differences between the two throwers.
So you resort elementary schoolyard tactics as well...too bad. It's been my experience that this kind of tactic is used by those that aren't getting their way or don't know what they're doing hoping that they provoke the knee jerk reaction to get to the answer they needed in the first place.
TPainG........hold your breath, the answer is coming real soon.
BTW, Prior doesn't rush. You have failed to "see" what this clip is offering. Even at side by side, you can't recognize the underlying differences…you only see and state the obvious which illustrates your limitations. Plus, your stills on your site are so-o-o-o-o uninformative, and your explanations are very suspect because in order to REALLY qualify stills in succession................you being a pro scout and advisor and all, should already know that any meaningful analysis of a high level athlete can't be done in increments of 1/15 or 1/30 of a second, especially when a ballistic movement is involved.
I suppose it's time I should warn all of the parents and coaches out here that if they want to protect their child from a throwing injury, whatever you do, DO NOT CHOOSE JOHN SMOLTZ as an example to emulate. And if your student is close to him now, CHANGE him quick. He habitually rushes his throws. And because of this...........one day.........I predict...................John Smoltz will retire a very, very wealthy man.
Listen.....I apologize to all for allowing this thread to be high jacked. I keep telling myself that if I see this happening, I’ll close it down……………then, the little guy on my shoulder says “don’t be an a$$.....freedom of the press, be politically correct, let everyone have their say……..toutchie, toutchie, feelie, feelie and all that cra……stuff.” Someone else do it for me when they feel the time is right.
Thanks!
I think I get the sarcasm about Smoltz, but you never did say the difference (at least I don't think) between the two clips.
As others have said, if you don't want TPG to know that's fine, but send me a PM or something please! You all are making me feel like I'm missing something major here! I'm starting to remember what it feels like to be the last person to know a secret. lol
BAM!
BAM!
BAM!
Correct about the sarcasm!quote:I think I get the sarcasm about Smoltz, but you never did say the difference (at least I don't think) between the two clips.
As others have said, if you don't want TPG to know that's fine, but send me a PM or something please! You all are making me feel like I'm missing something major here! I'm starting to remember what it feels like to be the last person to know a secret. lol
I knew when I took this job, it wasn't going to be easy.......and the management doesn't pay very well either
I'm not here to give throwing lessons, just to keep an eye on things. Unfortunately, when events such as this happen, it's like I'm expected to give an explanation....but I won't. I'm dedicated to others. This is why I rarely post. There are a lot of coaches and parents here whose postings I respect. They offer a wealth of information. And even if I disagree with them, I don’t need to post. But I find myself compelled to step in when I read nonsensical postings from people like TPainG. The recent postings actually wear me out. A lot of reiteration to dispel TPainG postings without spoon feeding him the answers….it gets old.As an example, I questioned DMills on pushing off the rubber. He said (to me) “there is no push. If there was a push, the push could be taught.” He couldn’t teach it, or actually knew when the event took place, therefore “there was no push.” “And if you’re so smart, you tell me how it’s done.” My thinking, ..well, I paid A LOT of good $ for information. Why should I explain the obvious (to me) to the ex pro pitcher with the MILLION $ DELIVERY SECRETS. 10 years later, his thoughts on the whole subject have made 180 deg turn…..go figure. So no, I will never divulge for free anything I know to an arrogant, ignorant ex pitching pro, pro scout or major league advisor. I simply don’t have that need to do so.
quote:Some of his stuff is OK, but it's not perfect.
Not like your stuff !
