To Ice or Not to Ice...

Ice, as far as I am concerned is good in any form after pitching or bull pens.
However, this just should be a precautionary measure in case of swelling, you mention pain. A pitcher should not have pain afterwards, maybe a bit sore, but not pain.

do a light jog after you pitch. I don't know the exact science, but there is lactic acid that builds up from pitching, and apparently the jogging gets rid of most of it.

I just jog and stretch, no heating, no icing, nothing of the sort.

Tiger Paw Mom-
By pain, I was referring to small amounts of soreness, like you said. Keep the posts coming.

PP10

yes i have heard or what andrew describes... our school team does that after you pitch you go for a light run to get rid of the lactic acid buildup and to draw the blood away from the arm to the legs..yea frozen vegetable bags work good

Yes Andrews is right... I'm a sophomore in high school and lactic acid is one (of the few lol) words I remember from biology last year. Lactic acid build up is due to work. Muscles build up lactic acid, and that is why the day after you pitch, or play, or workout or basically do any somewhat strenuous physical activity you are sore. After pitching, the best thing to do would be to jog to get the lactic acids out of your system. By moving the muscles again, the acid leaves and not only helps heal the soreness but also helps recovery between starts become a much faster process. The distance depends on how many pitches you throw. The coach at my school spent a few years in the A's organization in the ealry-mid 90's, and uses what they do. He has us run what he calls "double half-poles". What this means is fairly simple:
A pole is to run from the right field foul pole to the left field foul pole and back.

In this strategy, we run 2 poles for every inning pitched... Ie: 5 IP, 10 poles.

We start at the right field foul pole and jog to centerfield. Once we get there, we sprint from centerfield to the left field foul line. We then turn around and walk fairly quickly back to centerfield, then sprint back to the right field line. We have a 30 second break there, and repeat the process again.

This strategy is very strenuous and we end up staying at the field for a long while, but I find it works very well. In extra inning night game, he told me I didn't have to stay but the next morning went to the track and jogged 5 miles on my own, because I'd gotten so used to the process and it helping me. So definitely jog after pushing, don't push yourself, but stretch the distance out.

As for ice, it also depends on how much you pitch. I find that if I have a light bullpen session or just a catch with someone I don't ice afterward, but I make sure to keep my muscles loose and stretch well the next time I throw. After long toss, I apply ice for around 20 minutes to a half hour there, just to make sure muscles don't swell up, etc. I am a starter on my team, so a lot of the time I will go a complete game and occasionally 100+ pitches. I find that the best strategy is to gradually ice, rather than just apply ice for a short time period that night. I ice that night, but maybe the next day during a lunch period or study hall I stop by the school ahtletic trainer's office and I stretch, and apply heat. Gradually throughout the downtime between starts, I prepare my arm to make sure there's no injuries. I know it might seem like a lot of work for a 15 year old pitcher, but I think being as young as I am and doing as much as I do it's the best and safest way to prevent injury.

Lactic acid question:
So what's the best thing for me to do with my baseball players after the football coach has them lifting wieghts all afternoon every other day (the class is called 'conditioning' but everyone knows it's simply spring football weight workouts...)
Anyway... whats the best way for us to alleviate pain and soreness.... I'll have kids show up to practice who can't even lift their arms, let alone throw a ball or swing a bat...
Doesn't happen every day, but it does happen from time to time, especially when they do complexes...
any comments fellas (or ladies, I'm very open minded)

JH
Do you jog usually right after pitching in a game, depending on whether you have time available to do so?

PP10

skipper- football is a tough issue. In my school, I don't have first hand knowledge of the football workout situation because I don't play, but I know what my friends say on the team. Football workouts are near impossible to avoid, and can also be a good thing for the player. The best thing I would say is stretch a lot, run and take an Epsom salt bath. Epsom salt soaks and loosens the muscles, and running does what I said above. Let me know how it goes.

PP10- yes, I usually do. The reason for running right after is that muscles tighten once there is lactic acid, and once they tighten they become sore. By running, etc. directly after pitching, it loosens the muscles before they can tighten (Ie: in your sleep, etc.)

I did some research on lactic acid and its not the cause of stiffness, I would get in depth, but I don't have any time. But look at any articles and they all tell you that latic acid actualy helps you.

websters:

Lactic acid builds up in the muscles as a byproduct of oxygen use and can cause cramping. Aerobic conditioning can prevent excessive lactic acid build up.

To add on to this lactic acid stuff I'm in an honors biology class right now and we learned that your muscles use lactic acid when oxygen lessens and is not as much available. It's pretty much another energy source. To prove this think of when you run hard for a long time and your legs start to burn. If you think about it the amount of oxygen in your body is being used up quickly but your legs need more and can't get it which is when lactic acid comes in to help keep the muscle active. Also as J H posted it says aerobic conditioning can help relieve this. It's because your body builds up a tolerance to not needing as much oxygen meaning less is being used so it doesn't run out as quickly.

Here's my backup from wikipedia.com

Increases in lactate concentration typically occur under conditions where the rate of energy demand by tissues cannot be met by aerobic respiration i.e. tissues cannot get or process oxygen and substrates quickly enough. Under these conditions pyruvate dehydrogenase cannot convert pyruvate to acetyl-CoA quickly enough and pyruvate begins to build up.

There is no scientific proof that icing or running has any benefit after pitching. Sometimes it is a matter of perference.

However, if a pitcher feels sore in any areas, ice should be applied to prevent any swelling that may occur. It is only beneficial the first 24 hours. Heat can be applied if soreness or stiffnes still occurs.

JH,
Applying ice and heat, running will not prevent injury, cutting down on the 100+ pitch count everytime you pitch will.

Things to know about lactic acid:
(c/o CSU...and a Loma Linda U grad student)

1. Lactic acid is formed from the breakdown of good ol sugar. The blood sugar (glucose) provides the fuel for the chemical reactions. When the body produces (process called anaerobic metabolism) the hydrogen ions that make up the acid, it satisfies our energy 'instant' exercise intensity requirements.


2. When muscles ache after a workout it is caused by inflammation of the tissue muscles and muscle damage, and if over-excited, muscle fatigue. (ie not be able to even lift your arms!) This old bad body prefers to use
use hot showers and massage as relaxation techniques to relieve aches and soreness.

3. Whenever the body needs energy, it breaks down carbohydrates. When carbo's are used, acid is produced. The faster the body breaks down glucose and glycogen, more lactic acid is formed. While this old bad body is on the couch, (or at rest), I am hoping the body is burning stored fat (wishful thinking). However, there is a point where the fat burning is reduced, and the burning of carbo's kicks in. With higher intensity workouts (running to the refrigerator) more carbohydrates are necessary, and with more burned carbo, more lactic acid is produced.

4. Remember those fast-twitch muscles that us old timers stopped using eons ago? As I run from the refrigerator back to the couch, those fast twitch muscle fibers use more oxygen, burn more carbo's, and form more lactic acid.
Increased lactic acid in the blood stream means the rate produced exceeds the removal rate.

5. Blood levels of lactic acid reflect the balance between lactic acid production and use.
Thus acid production is directly proportional to carbos used to supply energy to the tissues. Rapid use of carbos for fuel, such as during intense exercise, accelerates producton. Slowing down the pace of exercise or stopping exercise altogether, the rate of lactate used for energy catches up and balances the rate of lactate production.

Dr. George Brooks, at UC Berkeley, described the theory as "Lactate Shuttle Theory."
Kinda like a country 2 step, if you know what I mean.

6. Lactic acid then, is as a chemical "fidler - middleman" for metabolizing carbos.
Carbo's enter the blood from the intestines to the liver as blood sugar. Instead of entering the liver as glucose and being converted directly to glycogen, most glucose from dietary carbos bypasses the liver to reach muscles before converting to acid.

To complete the dance cycle, the acid returns to the blood, back to the liver, and makes glycogen. The liver produces glycogen indirectly from lactic acid rather than directly from blood glucose.

Dr. McGarry calls that theory: the "Glucose Paradox" reveals significance lactic acid in carbo metabolism.

7. Remembering that, any bad bod's capacity to produce lactic acid tries to match the ability to use it as fuel. Hence, just getting up off the couch there is a tremendous increase in the rates required for muscle uptake, glucose use and breakdown of glycogen.

Getting back to the couch is much easier then? Yep! Blood lactic acid levels stabilize even though lactic acid production increases, and thus ready and prepared for relief. Ever hear of the proverbial, he got his "second wind".

8. The cardiovascular geniuses tell me my broken heart, very very slow-twitch muscle fibers, and asthma induced breathing muscles prefer lactate as a fuel.
During exercise, (just started walking everyday about three months ago) my heart use of lactate increases as walking intensity increases and (hopefully) the glucose burn remains unchanged. These tissues suck up lactate at a fast rate to satisfy their energy needs.

9. As the country 2 step turns to rock and roll, a very fast fuel is needed. Thus
both glucose and lactic acid rise in the blood after a carbohydrate-rich meal (remember the retired baseball pro eating chicken before baseball games?). Using lactic acid as a carbo "middleman" helps rid of carbos, without increasing insulin. During exercise, you won't want an increase in insulin because it decreases the availability of carbohydrates that are vital to high performance metabolism.

10. Why is lactic acid so important in metabolic regulation?
Our genuises tell me it remains unknown.

Including lactate as part of a replacement beverage provides a rapid fuel that can help provide energy during intense exercise.

Since my body breaks down so much carbos to lactate, why not start with lactate in the first place? Good question!

11. Training programs have been shown and proven to improve and aid lactic acid removal from my aging muscles. Of course it's the younger Docs that tell me higher intensity intervals and walking more and more distances allows me to understand and effectively learn about lactic acid.

Lactic acid formation and removal rates increase as I jump from the couch, run to the refrigerator, and back to the couch faster and more often.

Training with a lots of lactic acid will then excite this bad body and produce the enzymes to speed up lactic acid use.

Over training causes muscular adaptations that speed the rate of lactate removal. Something about mitochondrial capacity, {which I have not figure out yet, much less spell or pronounce], uses fatty acids as fuel, which decreases lactate formation.

Summary

A. Fuel for the body during rest and exercise is very important.

B. Lactid Acid is used to produce liver glycogen. This is a most important energy sources.

C. Lactate is the recommended fuel source in heart muscle and slow-twitch skeletal muscle fibers.

D. Lactic acid is an acid. Thus accumulation cause distress and fatigue.

E. Higher intensity training improves the capacity to use lactic acid as a fuel during exercise and recovery and to develop cardio capacity, that also reduces lactic acid transport to tissues.

F. Distance training causes tissue enzymes to increase use of fatty acids for energy. This helps slow lactic acid production from carbo and enhances muscle tissues's ability to use lactic acid as fuel.

G. Honey, have you seen my slippers? And can you get me another beer for more carbo's.

cheers,
Bear


References

Brooks G.A., Fahey T.D., White T. Exercise Physiology: Human Bioenergetics and Its Applications. Mt. View, CA: Mayfield Publishing Co., 1985.

Brooks, G.A. Lactate production under fully aerobic conditions. The lactate shuttle during rest and exercise. Fed. Proc. 45: 2924-2929, 1986.

Brooks, G.A. Mammalian fuel utilization during sustained exercise. Comp. Biochem. Physiol. 120: 89-107, 1998.

Brooks, G.A., Mercier J. The balance of carbohydrate and lipid utilization during exercise: the crossover concept (brief review). J. Appl. Physiol. 80: 2253-2261, 1994.

Brooks, G.A. and Trimmer J.K. Glucose kinetics during high-intensity exercise and the crossover concept. J. Appl. Physiol. 80: 1073-1074, 1996.

Donovan C.M., Brooks G.A. Endurance training affects lactate clearance, not lactate production. Am. J. Physiol. 244: E83-E92, 1983.

Hultman E.A. Fuel selection muscle fiber. Proc. Nutr. Soc. 54: 107-121, 1995.

Ahlborg G., Felig P. Lactate and glucose exchange across the forearm, legs and splanchnic bed during and after prolonged leg exercise. J. Clin. Invest. 69: 45-54. 1982.

Ahlborg G., Wahren J., Felig R. Splanchnic and peripheral glucose and lactate metabolism during and after prolonged arm exercise. J. Clin. Invest. 77: 690-699, 1986.

Zinker B.A., Wilson R.D., Wasserman D.H. Interaction of decreased arterial PO2 and exercise on carbohydrate metabolism in the dog. Am. J. Physiol. 269: E409-E417, 1995.

ps. Before a pitcher has (heaven forbid) arm injury, he may elect, at times, NOT to use ice (if only mildly tender). After suffering through either major or minor arm injury (and rehab), pitchers use 20 min of ice (and typically after a day's work...(ie After mound work, then run not vice versa). Pitch count's got nothing to do with the proper use of ice! Leo Mazzone (if you like Italian food), tells me, in his observations, it's over-exertion and over-extension that increases risk of arm injuries. I can understand that!

quote:

2. When muscles ache after a workout it is caused by inflammation of the tissue muscles and muscle damage,

I believe one of the key points is muscle damage. Treating the arm muscles as if they are damaged due to exorcize is the way I like to approach the subject. Soon after an intensive throwing workout, ice the area to help keep the inflammation down….10 minutes on, ten minutes off as one cycle….times two cycles. Take away the ice and then jog and sprint to help pass more blood through the affected areas…twenty yard sprint, twenty yard walk or jog as one cycle….times 10-12 cycles. The next day, heat can be used if needed.

quote:

Lactic acid formation and removal rates increase as I jump from the couch, run to the refrigerator, and back to the couch faster and more often.

Phunny!

I read a great article years ago from Newsday. It was before RJ came to the Yankees and he was pictured on a stationary bike, iced. The article was referencing the arm as four muscles and a ligament, in a tough neighborhood (the pitching mound!) Said after the trauma of pitching the arm might need some triage. Ice assauges the micor-tears and some areobic work would flush out the lactic acid.

It's about abuse and recovery.

Thanks for the comments...any other info would also be helpful.

PP10

I know several kids who pitched at a high level in college and ice was used routinely. Now that they are playing pro ball ..... no ice. The logic I heard is ice is detremental to the healing process by restricting blood flow - this makes sense to me. Is there a consensous in pro ball regarding icing after pitching or is this something that varies from team-team depending on thinking of training staff?

My son never ices and never has. He usually jogs or hops on a stationary bike for twenty minutes.

When you get to the college and pro level you will be expected to do as the trainer tells you. In professional baseball and in the larger college programs you will have a trainer. If you’re at a smaller program that doesn’t have a trainer, the coach will tell you what to do. You can’t help but notice that ice is VERY common in college and professional baseball.
Fungo
PS: When my son was younger (13 and up) he would ice after every pitching outing or if he had any muscle pain. That worked for him.

Fungo ...

Of course you already know this but ... drum roll please ... how right you are. The decision ... at the college and minor league levels ... is not necessarily left to the pitcher.

Our son's college coach and trainer had him icing after every outing (can't remember about the full bullpens) ... mostly shoulder, a little elbow for shorter period of time because they believed icing too long on a healthy elbow can affect the nerves, which are not as protected by soft and connective tissue ... lots of running and stationary bike after an outing.

In the minors, his organization does NOT have their minor league pitchers ice at all unless there is actual PAIN. (I cannot speak to pitchers who have been around at the higher level, nor those who may have played at the major level and who may have established their own regiment ...) When that new regimen started in his first (short) season, we were dumbfounded and of course envisioned the worst case scenario. Now, with his first full season under his belt and soon to start his second full season, he told us before leaving for spring training that his arm has never felt better. He gets the typical "soreness" after pitching (not after long toss ...) and still runs like crazy after bullpens etc.

Of course, he takes very good care of his arm ... was told by one of the trainers that he thought our son took better care of his arm than most of the pitchers in his draft 'class' and that he (the trainer) expected our son's arm to 'last' longer. (Now, if only that trainer could get son to throw harder with that healthy arm ... ..)

Will be anxious to see how he does this year but I guess I have to think that his new regimen works for him since his "innings pitched" statistic in '05 was up in the top 5 or 10 for ALL minor league pitchers.

My son will be 14 next month, and has been playing AAU ball since 9. He has always been one of the top pithers on the team. When he is not pitching he plays SS. During the week he always takes infield with the team so his arm never gets a break until the season is over. This has been the the norm for the past five seasons and we never ice just run after the games.. He has gained a averaged of 3-5 MPH per season and has no signs of arm trouble yet. I have seen kids over the years that have pitched a game and then get all wrapped up with ice like they were shot or something, and then the same kids always complain about there arm being sore... I still dont know what is better thats just the way we have always did things....

Icing helps a pitcher who has worked his arm hard recover quicker. It dosen't prevent arm injury. The advice I have been given is that if you only pitch a couple of innings it is not necessary to ice. Only if you inflame the muscel tissue in your arm. It is usually 15 min on and 15 min off untill your arm cools down.
Do polls at a very slow pace to flush body of lactic acid and then ice. This will help recovery time and keep arm from becoming stiff and sore but will not prevent injury. If you don't ice your arm won't fall off. Son ices when he can but not often. I have never seen a position player ice his arm in the normal course of a ball game.

My two cents;

I've been taught - ice is for injuries to reduce swelling, running and bands for a normal cool down after pitching.

NO 100+ games (personal opinion, unfortunatly our coach expects up to 140)

Yes ice is used to reduce swelling when you are injured. During the normal course (no injury) it is used to reduce swelling to quicken recovery. Bands won't reduce swelling. Slow jogging will flush lactic acid from the body reducing soreness after stenuous excercises. If you jogg too fast you create more lactic acid.