Toe dragging

You dont want to drag your toe really, I use to do it and when my pitching coach had me stop I noticed a big difference. Now I sort of turn my foot over and lift it through my follow through (if that make sense, sort of hard to explain). One drill my pitching coach did was put a chair there and make it so my foot would have to go over the chair or I would hit it.

I personally drag my toe after every pitch I throw. I don't really know why I do it because I have a huge blister! I wish I could stop the habit, but it is so natural

There are several pitching coaches that I have come in contact with that actually recommend toe dragging as a way to take a little off of your changeup. Not sure how well it works. My brothers coach has him scrunch his toes together when he throws his changeup. Sounds funny, but it does help, and it is starting to catch on wiht several of the area HS pitchers.

Many of the top players did it. Dwight Gooden did it. I think the toe should drag a bit, especially if you have a long stride. Tough to have your toe go straight up in the air if you do not have a long stride. IT goes both ways I believe. Short Strides usually pop up with the rear leg and long striders drag their toe a bit.

If nobody did it, there wouldn't be a market for shoe toe caps!

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Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
If nobody did it, there wouldn't be a market for shoe toe caps!

Exactly. My daughter is a pitcher for softball and did the same thing and I should've just gotten her one of those toe caps. But she didn't care and her season's not that long anyway.

Did anybody see one of the college games televised recently on ESPN-U where the pitcher had a huge hole in his shoe from dragging his foot?

To me if you have a hole in your shoe it is showing me that your stride is where it needs to be. The majority of pitchers without the hole aren't striding out as far. Not necessarily a bad or good thing though.

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To me if you have a hole in your shoe it is showing me that your stride is where it needs to be. The majority of pitchers without the hole aren't striding out as far. Not necessarily a bad or good thing though.

Agreed.

Im 15, and I had inconsistancy with my circle change, so he showed me a 3 finger change,[he being my HS coach] and told me to drag my foot when I throw it
That way, arm stays the same speed, and the body slows down..
something like that

it works, until i can get the hang of my circle change again.

you guys shouldnt try and SET any pitchers stride length,it should happen naturally as he uncoils to the plate..you dont STEP to the plate you uncoil and the stride lands where it lands.

i think pedro does it, and its aggravating his toe injury.

Pedros injury is because he drags his toe, lifts it off the ground, and then his foot pounds really hard against the ground

Its pretty weird, and really violent how his foot comes down on the ground.

If dragging your toe reduces the speed on your changeup, would it also reduce the speed on yoour fastball? If you drag your toe naturally would it increase your velocity if you could eliminate the toe drag?

In my years of experience I have been taught and do teach that the back foot must not drag, it must leave the rubber immediately. Any time the foot drags it kills a lot of forward momentum that has been built up and it can decrease or diminish velocity. For every action there is an opposite reaction. When the pitcher is out over his stride leg and releases the ball his arm whips toward the plate and down in front of his knee. To compensate the back leg should be free to come up as high as the pitcher needs. Some pitchers will have a free leg kick above their heads. Side-arm guys will be different of course. This is optimal for 3/4 and over hand throwers. When throwing a change, its a fastball motion with a change up grip. Friction from the grip will change the speed.

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Any time the foot drags it kills a lot of forward momentum that has been built up and it can decrease or diminish velocity.

Not too sure this is correct. IMO, the posting leg posture that you're talking about, is the result of the hip/pelvis action. The hip/pelvis action is the result of the lower body mechanics used to go toward the intended target.

Dragging the toe (in itself,) is not the culprit for killing forward momentum or diminished velocity.


http://bb.rcco.us/

Wouldn't it help the discussion to define when the toe dragging is occurring? Granted, it is a pretty fine dividing line.

Some "toe dragging" may occur just as part of the foot initially coming off the rubber.

This is not the same as the toe dragging somewhat later in the delivery.

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There are several pitching coaches that I have come in contact with that actually recommend toe dragging as a way to take a little off of your changeup.

Most elite pitchers drag their toe. The drag line (in the dirt) is an indicator of mechanical efficiency. The length of the drag line in the dirt is an indicator the amount of momentum that is built up during the stride. The direction of the drag line indicates the direction that energy is being directed. The ideal direction is directly toward home plate.

Dragging the toe does not take anything off a change-up or any other pitch for that matter. Velocity is determined primarily by hip and shoulder rotation. Turning the foot over so that the toe is down actually aids hip rotation - the foot and back leg must turn over to allow the hips to come around explosively. As someone else pointed out, if dragging the toe took something off the change-up, it would have the same effect on the fastball. You can't tell me Clemens is taking something off his fastball by dragging his toe.

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To me if you have a hole in your shoe it is showing me that your stride is where it needs to be. The majority of pitchers without the hole aren't striding out as far. Not necessarily a bad or good thing though.

Maybe. Or maybe not. Just turning the foot over and dragging the toe is not enough to say one's stride length is where it should be. Stride length should be as long as possible while still maintaining proper posture and balance and having an explosive hip rotation.

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Im 15, and I had inconsistancy with my circle change, so he showed me a 3 finger change,[he being my HS coach] and told me to drag my foot when I throw it
That way, arm stays the same speed, and the body slows down..

Slowing down the body is a visual cue that might tip your pitch to the batter. Better to keep everything the same and let the grip and pronation take something off.

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In my years of experience I have been taught and do teach that the back foot must not drag, it must leave the rubber immediately. Any time the foot drags it kills a lot of forward momentum that has been built up and it can decrease or diminish velocity.

I don't think dragging the back foot kills much momentum at all. Most elite pitchers drag their back toe and the toe doesn't lift off the ground until after the ball is released. There is a good reason for this. You want your shoulders to rotate around an upright spine. Dragging the toe helps maintain an upright spine into release. When the back foot lifts immediately, the torso tilts forward too soon. The shoulders get out in front too much and that wastes the energy being transferred up the kinetic chain. The result is you end up throwing more with just your arm and that puts more wear and tear on the arm.

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Wouldn't it help the discussion to define when the toe dragging is occurring? Granted, it is a pretty fine dividing line.

Some "toe dragging" may occur just as part of the foot initially coming off the rubber.

This is not the same as the toe dragging somewhat later in the delivery.

The toe dragging begins when the back foot turns over which happens at or just before foot strike. In order for the front foot to open up and plant pointing somewhat at home plate, the hips will also have to start opening up. In order for the hips to open, the back foot/leg need to turn over. With most elite pitchers, the back foot then drags until right after the ball is released.

So you don't believe that hip rotation after foot plant aids velocity?

No, I do think the remainder of hip rotation that occurs after foot plant aids with velocity. I just don't think that dragging the toe inhibits hip rotation that much.

When you were talking about the toe dragging in a "straight line", it made me think otherwise. That is why I asked.

Toe dragging can rob velocity if it is still occuring late in the delivery. E.g., if it inhibits hip rotation. If Pedro, for instance, were to drag his toe he would lose velocity as it would inhibit his hip rotation.

Depending upon the severity of the drag, it could even rob velocity of a linear type pitcher.

Thats the point I was making Texan. A slight drag may be normal for some. Clemens is an example, but his free leg fires up as his momentum goes forward. His drag may be measured in small inches. I have seen pitchers taught and use a total drag until well after release. I have used my training from some fine college coaches that I tend to agree with, but my mind will always remain open, and I appreciate Roger's opinion.

I would agree that the degree and timing of the toe drag is critical to answering the question of whether the toe drag is diminishing velocity.

A slight amount of "toe drag" is probably going to result just from the pivot foot turning. Personally, I never really referred to this as "toe drag".

Some pitchers noticeably drag their toe for 8-10". That I considered "toe drag". But everyone can have different definitions.

Nolan Ryan had a very long drag line. But, ultimately, the length is only part of the equation. The other part is the amount of downward force. If a pitcher is building momentum early in the stride and getting out over the front leg, then there won't be that much downward force on the back foot after it turns over.

Remember, for practical purposes, this isn't an issue of whether or not toe drag affects velocity. It's an issue of whether the effect on velocity is significant or not. My claim is that it is not.

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Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
The other part is the amount of downward force.

Exactly.

I used to drag my foot before sophmore year when I switched schools and my new coach pretty much forced me to pick it up. I now only drag it if I am going to be throwing a change up because it seems to keep the ball down and slow the velocity down. For all my other pithces I pick the toe up and kick it over so it is parallel with my plant foot

Do not change your mechanics when throwing a changeup. Changing the grip will do the job.

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Originally posted by Texan:
Do not change your mechanics when throwing a changeup. Changing the grip will do the job.

Exactly.

If you change your mechanics when throwing a change-up, then good hitters will know what's coming and will start crushing the ball.

Mike Mussina evidently had a problem like this a couple of years ago back in Spring Training. In this case his change-up grip was too obvious and Jorge Posada crushed one in a intra-squad game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Mussina

toe dragging....is ok...look at frames 18,19.13.24



http://imageevent.com/siggy/throwing/pro?n=13&z=9&w=0&x=0&c=4&m=12&p=12

In my opinion those are pretty much all examples of a very slight drag and in some cases a turning of the foot. That varies greatly from what some young pitchers are using as a foot drag. I have witnessed some dragging their foot from the rubber almost all the way to finish. In that case it does slow velocity as I have witnessed and taught some and have seen the improvements. With a slight toe drag it should almost go unseen, its part of forward momentum.

Toe drag is a red herring!
If the hips are released it doesn' matter what the toe does.
If the toe drags hard on the ground then the hips were not released. This could be from a lack of push from the posting leg or too soft a brace leg (hips float forward). These should be the focus of the mechanical issues.
The problem is how active the hips/legs are and not the resultant toe drag/no drag. A focus on lifting the toe could easily be counter productive.
Rollerman