A recent check of a well know travel team,showed another pitcher needing Tommy John surgery.
Just wonder how often does this happen with other travel teams
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Who says it is due to the current travel team?
quote:Originally posted by Frank Martin:
A recent check of a well know travel team,showed another pitcher needing Tommy John surgery.
Just wonder how often does this happen with other travel teams
Travel teams are not the problem. Coaches and parents who place winning above everything or are uneducated in arm care and arm injuries are the problem. Our (15U in the fall) travel team carries ten pitchers. We've never had a problem. We want our pitchers to tell us if they are stiff or sore. We'll roll out the next fresh arm. We have a responsibility to turn the kids into high school/Legion pitchers and deliver them with healthy arms.
Conversely, I once coached a 9U and 10U team where the head coach wouldn't listen to me about arm care and rest. He was all about winning. Both the "studs" had arm surgery at eleven or twelve for damaged growth plates. Neither one can through worth a darn anymore and are not high school prospects.
The main, but not sole, cause of youth elbow problems from pitching is overuse. Kids playing travel ball are likely playing rec at the same time. Pitch counts will control the problem only if adhered to by both (or more) teams the kids is pitching for.
Most of the problems are associated with throwing the slurve (part curve, part slider) or LL curve. This places a significant stress on the elbow. Question: Have you ever seen a youth pitcher having elbow problems who was not throwing breaking pitches improperly?
There are no simple solutions or quick fixes. Educated coaches and parents are the main defense a kid has. Believing pitch counts will solve the problem in and of itself is magical thinking.
Most of the problems are associated with throwing the slurve (part curve, part slider) or LL curve. This places a significant stress on the elbow. Question: Have you ever seen a youth pitcher having elbow problems who was not throwing breaking pitches improperly?
There are no simple solutions or quick fixes. Educated coaches and parents are the main defense a kid has. Believing pitch counts will solve the problem in and of itself is magical thinking.
We did not allow our kids to throw anything but fastballs and change-ups at ages 11 and 12. Very few curves at 13. Yet kids still get injured because of over use. It does not have to be pitching though curves do put a lot of strain on the elbow. The problem I believe is too many pitches and no break, no rest. My son had a growth plate injury and fortunately he recovered but it wasn't from curves or pitching too much. In fact he pithced very little but played a lot. He went from spring to summer to fall to training and then it started all over again. ASMI says a minimum of 3 months no overhead throwing whatsoever is needed.
quote:It does not have to be pitching though curves do put a lot of strain on the elbow.
Actually, the properly thrown MLB curve rotates in a vertical plane or 12/6 away from the pitcher. The fast ball, thrown with the same arm (shoulder and elbow) motion rotates in the same plane but toward the pitcher and creates the same stresses. Neither places stress on the inside of the elbow unless there is poor technique resulting in supination of the forearm.
I guess as a newbie I should have described more in detail what pitch I call a curve.
daque, welcome to the hsbbw
while i don't totaly disagree on the cause of tj.i think the bigger cause is lack of recovery after pitching,along with all the rest.how do you explain catchers being the 2nd highest tj candidate?
while i don't totaly disagree on the cause of tj.i think the bigger cause is lack of recovery after pitching,along with all the rest.how do you explain catchers being the 2nd highest tj candidate?
quote:Originally posted by TG:
Travel teams are not the problem. Coaches and parents who place winning above everything or are uneducated in arm care and arm injuries are the problem. Our (15U in the fall) travel team carries ten pitchers. We've never had a problem. We want our pitchers to tell us if they are stiff or sore. We'll roll out the next fresh arm. We have a responsibility to turn the kids into high school/Legion pitchers and deliver them with healthy arms.
Conversely, I once coached a 9U and 10U team where the head coach wouldn't listen to me about arm care and rest. He was all about winning. Both the "studs" had arm surgery at eleven or twelve for damaged growth plates. Neither one can through worth a darn anymore and are not high school prospects.
Be careful when you use statements that parents and coaches are responsible for tj related injuries. Throwing overhand is not a "human friendly" movement and every arm is different. I know personally of numerous tj injuries that happen to players who proceeded with caution their entire life. I would even go far out on the limb and say that a majority of a injuries can be attributed to fate rather than abuse.
quote:Originally posted by rz1:quote:Originally posted by TG:
Travel teams are not the problem. Coaches and parents who place winning above everything or are uneducated in arm care and arm injuries are the problem. Our (15U in the fall) travel team carries ten pitchers. We've never had a problem. We want our pitchers to tell us if they are stiff or sore. We'll roll out the next fresh arm. We have a responsibility to turn the kids into high school/Legion pitchers and deliver them with healthy arms.
Conversely, I once coached a 9U and 10U team where the head coach wouldn't listen to me about arm care and rest. He was all about winning. Both the "studs" had arm surgery at eleven or twelve for damaged growth plates. Neither one can through worth a darn anymore and are not high school prospects.
Be careful when you use statements that parents and coaches are responsible for tj related injuries. Throwing overhand is not a "human friendly" movement and every arm is different. I know personally of numerous tj injuries that happen to players who proceeded with caution their entire life. I would even go far out on the limb and say that a majority of a injuries can be attributed to fate rather than abuse.
We're going to have to disagree. From my playing experience I never saw a pitcher injure his arm through high school ball unless it was due to pitching too frequently or improper mechanics. In college I saw some pitchers break down. But a lot of kids don't get as far as college ball.
As a coach heading into 15U and watching whats gone on at the high school and Legion level in our area, once again I don't know anyone who injured their arm without it being attributed to overuse or poor mechanics.
TG, welcome to hs bbweb
in this case they certainly are not.
It doesn't mean you have to change your views, but you'll be keenly aware that other folks have very different views based on THEIR experience, and that your view is to say the least "disputed" and based on limited observation
for the record I agree w/Red, and thats the beauty of participating in these discussions, you have a chance to see IF the conclusions you've reached from your own experience are "universal truths" - -quote:by TG: (Red) We're going to have to disagree ... I don't know anyone who injured their arm without it being attributed to overuse or poor mechanics.
in this case they certainly are not.
It doesn't mean you have to change your views, but you'll be keenly aware that other folks have very different views based on THEIR experience, and that your view is to say the least "disputed" and based on limited observation
20Dad: Your observation about catchers being the next in line for frequency of TJ surgery touches on one of my multiple hot buttons. The catcher, as you know, throws the second highest number of balls in a game and then most times from a position mandating more arm and less body involvement. But that is not where I see the main part of their problem.
Catchers are the most neglected and under coached players on the team. It is not uncommon for a catcher to do a double header behind the plate. In youth ball, it is equally common for a catcher to come out from behind the plate to assume pitching duties, rubber legs and all.
But specifically, I believe catchers who throw an equal numbers of balls although not pitching them, do so from an anatomical position mandating more arm involvement. That is a guess and should not be taken to the bank.
Catchers are the most neglected and under coached players on the team. It is not uncommon for a catcher to do a double header behind the plate. In youth ball, it is equally common for a catcher to come out from behind the plate to assume pitching duties, rubber legs and all.
But specifically, I believe catchers who throw an equal numbers of balls although not pitching them, do so from an anatomical position mandating more arm involvement. That is a guess and should not be taken to the bank.
With respect to travel teams, most of the players are not exclusively pitchers; they play multiple positions. Given that most TJ injuries are from overuse without sufficient rest, I have to echo what our doctor said. When counting pitches, you must include practice pitches before entering the game and warm-up pitches between innings. The elbow doesn't know if it is pitching to a batter or just to the catcher's glove. And the shoulder doesn't know if it is "throwing" or "pitching". He said you must limit your "throws" for shoulder health as much as you limit your "pitches" for the elbow.
My son was (WAS) a two-way player in college. He would throw bullpens with the pitchers when the pitchers were practicing. When the pitchers were resting on their day off, he would be practicing with the infielders. When the infielders were resting on their day off, he would practice with the pitchers. He had no rest at all. Now he does. Three weeks down, maybe forty-nine to go.
How many times have you seen a player come in from playing the field in the middle of an inning to pitch without proper time to warm up? Especially when it's cold? Mine has.....come in from shortstop, maybe throws a couple of times during an inning and then asked to pitch...has the 6 warm-up pitches....And then has to "throw heat" or whatever--throws at full strength for the out. I don't understand why a coach wouldn't take a player out during a late inning and let him warm up properly before putting him in to pitch. It happens in travel ball and in high school ball, both travel coaches and high school coaches.
There is so much information regarding the health of a baseball player. This is a great time. But we need to listen to what the doctors say, and listen to those who have experienced all this medical intervention. And take into account our own children. Mine never thought it would happen to him. We've had both labrum surgery and Tommy John surgery this year, on two different kids. Both have been playing travel ball for six and seven years respectively. It's a drag. It did happen to him. Both of them.
By the way, if anyone is rehabbing TJ or has kids who have are, my son could use someone to talk with....
My son was (WAS) a two-way player in college. He would throw bullpens with the pitchers when the pitchers were practicing. When the pitchers were resting on their day off, he would be practicing with the infielders. When the infielders were resting on their day off, he would practice with the pitchers. He had no rest at all. Now he does. Three weeks down, maybe forty-nine to go.
How many times have you seen a player come in from playing the field in the middle of an inning to pitch without proper time to warm up? Especially when it's cold? Mine has.....come in from shortstop, maybe throws a couple of times during an inning and then asked to pitch...has the 6 warm-up pitches....And then has to "throw heat" or whatever--throws at full strength for the out. I don't understand why a coach wouldn't take a player out during a late inning and let him warm up properly before putting him in to pitch. It happens in travel ball and in high school ball, both travel coaches and high school coaches.
There is so much information regarding the health of a baseball player. This is a great time. But we need to listen to what the doctors say, and listen to those who have experienced all this medical intervention. And take into account our own children. Mine never thought it would happen to him. We've had both labrum surgery and Tommy John surgery this year, on two different kids. Both have been playing travel ball for six and seven years respectively. It's a drag. It did happen to him. Both of them.
By the way, if anyone is rehabbing TJ or has kids who have are, my son could use someone to talk with....
While I agree that "overuse" may contribute to the frequency of elbow/shoulder injuries, I believe that the physical gifts that an athlete comes to the table with are at least as important as the other factors (mechanics/overuse/CB,slider use) that are associated with these injuries.
That being said, we have no control over the genetics of any given athlete. We can control, to some extent, the conditioning, volume, and types of pitches used. None of these controls are going to reduce the risk of pitching to zero. It may clarify the roles each component adds to the equation but the end result will still be the same. Physical activity at the extremes of effort entails risk for injury.
Rollerman
quote:I believe that the physical gifts that an athlete comes to the table with are at least as important as the other factors (mechanics/overuse/CB,slider use) that are associated with these injuries.
That's what I'm talkin about. As soon as an injury happens we open up the back door and look for a culprit. After my sons tj I asked him what he thought brought the injury on and without hesitation he said "I'm a pitcher and these things happen to pitchers. I worked hard, took care of my body, had great teachers, and did everything I thought had to be done to to make it to the next level. There is no one to blame for the fact that genetically I was not bionic".
I myself just recently had tj surgery. While I'm not entirely sure what caused it, I'm just looking at is as another step in the road. I however think a big problem and major cause could be improper mechanics. For years I knew I would come around the ball at release. I never once threw a curveball until my freshmen year of high school and didn't really start developing one until sophomore year. And at least for me overuse really wasn't much of a problem until last year. And even with more throwing theses past years my arm never hurt and I felt that I had done what I needed to do to keep it in shape
quote:Originally posted by rz1:quote:Originally posted by TG:
Travel teams are not the problem. Coaches and parents who place winning above everything or are uneducated in arm care and arm injuries are the problem. Our (15U in the fall) travel team carries ten pitchers. We've never had a problem. We want our pitchers to tell us if they are stiff or sore. We'll roll out the next fresh arm. We have a responsibility to turn the kids into high school/Legion pitchers and deliver them with healthy arms.
Conversely, I once coached a 9U and 10U team where the head coach wouldn't listen to me about arm care and rest. He was all about winning. Both the "studs" had arm surgery at eleven or twelve for damaged growth plates. Neither one can through worth a darn anymore and are not high school prospects.
Be careful when you use statements that parents and coaches are responsible for tj related injuries. Throwing overhand is not a "human friendly" movement and every arm is different. I know personally of numerous tj injuries that happen to players who proceeded with caution their entire life. I would even go far out on the limb and say that a majority of a injuries can be attributed to fate rather than abuse.
Keep in mind I stated through high school and saw pitchers break down in college. By college we're starting to talk about serious mileage on the arm. We're also talking about schedules that typically extend beyond high school and Legion. Then if a player goes on to pro ball he's hitting another mileage marker.
I never had arm problems until college. I was recruited as an outfielder. As a freshman facing four junior and senior outfielders I raised my hand when the coach asked, "Is the a GD lefty who can come out of the pen throwing strikes." The practice and game** work load of being a pitcher and a position player was too much for my arm. I stopped pitching when I started being an every day player mid soph season.
** I think I threw more warming up in the pen and the game than I ever did as a starting pitcher in high school.
oops, Red IS off the hook as from my VAST experience "arm genes" come from the MOMquote:by Red's son: There is no one to blame for the fact that genetically I was not bionic".
I'll side with Rz1 on this one. Stuff Happens.
quote:Originally posted by deldad:
I'll side with Rz1 on this one. Stuff Happens.
I agree stuff happens, but when TJS and shoulder surgery begins happening to younger and younger players then I see a problem.
Young players cannot properly condition their arms needed for frequent use, long innings and large pitch counts, curve balls and sliders.
JMO.
I don't believe it's "stuff happens" when it's before college ball. I believe it's overuse.
Here's something that's changed that is not for the better.
My experience as a kid:
We had to make LL. Only the best 12yo's got to pitch. I pitched about 90 innings through the regular season and all-stars.
A 13yo in Babe Ruth ball isn't going to fool hitters so it's back to not pitching. At fourteen I threw about 70 innings during the season. At fifteen I threw about 100 between regular season and all-stars. Throw in another 35 innings for junior high school ball each of those years.
It's now soph year of high school/Legion. It's back to the back of the line. No pitching. Then my junior and senior year I throw about 125 innings a season.
Total it up. I entered high school having thrown about 330 innings. I finished high school having pitched about 580 innings.
Today:
Anyone want to guess how many kids are pitching 100 innings per season starting at 9U travel? This means before these kids reach middle school and physical development, they've thrown more than I threw leading up to high school. By the time these kids get to high school they thrown more innings than I threw all the way through high school, while they are still developing physically.
Go figure "stuff happens." Excessive travel ball at an early age is making "stuff happen" for a lot of kids.
There's a kid in Alabama who threw 234 innings in 10U travel ball (SI article on ten year old athletes four years ago). His parents said they were not going to get in the way of anything that would block his dream if becoming a MLB pitcher. I'd say the parent's ignorance and negligence is the kid's biggest obstacle.
Here's something that's changed that is not for the better.
My experience as a kid:
We had to make LL. Only the best 12yo's got to pitch. I pitched about 90 innings through the regular season and all-stars.
A 13yo in Babe Ruth ball isn't going to fool hitters so it's back to not pitching. At fourteen I threw about 70 innings during the season. At fifteen I threw about 100 between regular season and all-stars. Throw in another 35 innings for junior high school ball each of those years.
It's now soph year of high school/Legion. It's back to the back of the line. No pitching. Then my junior and senior year I throw about 125 innings a season.
Total it up. I entered high school having thrown about 330 innings. I finished high school having pitched about 580 innings.
Today:
Anyone want to guess how many kids are pitching 100 innings per season starting at 9U travel? This means before these kids reach middle school and physical development, they've thrown more than I threw leading up to high school. By the time these kids get to high school they thrown more innings than I threw all the way through high school, while they are still developing physically.
Go figure "stuff happens." Excessive travel ball at an early age is making "stuff happen" for a lot of kids.
There's a kid in Alabama who threw 234 innings in 10U travel ball (SI article on ten year old athletes four years ago). His parents said they were not going to get in the way of anything that would block his dream if becoming a MLB pitcher. I'd say the parent's ignorance and negligence is the kid's biggest obstacle.
I'm not sure if i'm on the "stuff happens" train. Doctors are reporting huge increase in arm injuries, which happens to coincide with the travel ball explosion. Especially the tournament formats.
Well TG, Mine was not overused I can show you a graph of every inning he pitched after little league. Mechanically, some scouts said they were some of the best ever.
Yes overuse is a problem. Yes year round baseball is an issue. But to put a blanket statement out there that travel ball leads to increase tommy john is just inaccurate. Each arm is different. Every situation is different.
Also becomes an issue that more parents are willing to spend large amounts of money for operations on marginal prospects. Before TJ, these kids just moved on to other things. We are in an unprecedented era of youth baseball. We have nothing to compare it to historically.
And the stuff happens quote comes from the Dr. who has done more TJ surgeries than we know people. Some of them are not explainable.
There are a number of people who would argue that kids today don't throw enough.
Yes overuse is a problem. Yes year round baseball is an issue. But to put a blanket statement out there that travel ball leads to increase tommy john is just inaccurate. Each arm is different. Every situation is different.
Also becomes an issue that more parents are willing to spend large amounts of money for operations on marginal prospects. Before TJ, these kids just moved on to other things. We are in an unprecedented era of youth baseball. We have nothing to compare it to historically.
And the stuff happens quote comes from the Dr. who has done more TJ surgeries than we know people. Some of them are not explainable.
There are a number of people who would argue that kids today don't throw enough.
quote:Originally posted by TG:
There's a kid in Alabama who threw 234 innings in 10U travel ball (SI article on ten year old athletes four years ago). His parents said they were not going to get in the way of anything that would block his dream if becoming a MLB pitcher. I'd say the parent's ignorance and negligence is the kid's biggest obstacle.
TG,
My 21 year old pitched 100 innings this year. In good physical condition for a 21 year old college pitcher, he felt the effects. I watched many college pitchers pitch lots of innings since their freshamn year and you better beleive stuff happens. Two local pitchers that I watched, were top prospects for the draft this year. Didn't happen. One most likely will undego TJS (he pitched a tremendous amount in HS also). The way I see it, the college coaches DID NOT develop their pitching staff but relied on these pitchers to pitch
well over 100 pitches per game (one was at 156 once) and go the distance.
Travel ball will never stop. I read somewhere once (I think here ) someone said that he teaches all of his young players to pitch. If more coaches did this, and shared pitching responsibilities and development, I think we might see less injuries.
The above comments made by the parents just shows how ignorant some are to the team travel phenomenom and how it is hurting young pitchers.
quote:Originally posted by deldad:
Yes overuse is a problem. Yes year round baseball is an issue. But to put a blanket statement out there that travel ball leads to increase tommy john is just inaccurate.
I didn't blame travel ball. However, travel ball is the avenue that allows it to happen. I place the blame on travel ball coaches who allow kids to pitch excessively. We have ten pitchers on our 14U team. No one pitches excessively. We have a responsibility to get them to high school/Legion ball.
quote:There are a number of people who would argue that kids today don't throw enough.
I would be one of them. There are kids throwing too little and pitching too much. They don't have a day to day throwing regiment. Then they go out and give their all from the mound after maybe not throwing for a few days.
my doctor has two sons that pitch and he keeps a strict pitch count . he taught them to work the infield and the outfield not their arms .he said most of the stress on growth plate injuries are done on the arms deceleration not the throw . proper mechanics and conditioning will min. injuries but how many and type of pitches must match the arms limitations .
while it is easy to blame one thing for tj surgery,many things are to blame for tj sugery. and any combination of them. and you have to believe genetics are involved as well.my son had relatively few innings pitched, but seriously high pitch counts in legion ball. two years later ucl gone. i do wish i knew then what i know now about recovery time etc. i believe it is a culmination of things over time. some kids have a bone spur that cut's a little at a time. some just keep wearing down until the pop.and some.......who knows? you can do everything right and still have it.
deldad is right we are on unchartered waters when it comes to baseball today. we know so much, but do we really know? i know it is an interesting topic that i love reading about. i like the theory's people have, most of them make you think maybe that's the one.
i still think lack of recovery time is the big culprit. and the catchers make me think that way.they very seldom get a break.
i don't usually do this, but my son just signed with the twins on thurs. 1 yr 2 weeks after our trip to alabama. i know many kids have made it back after tj. but it's my first one.lol
deldad is right we are on unchartered waters when it comes to baseball today. we know so much, but do we really know? i know it is an interesting topic that i love reading about. i like the theory's people have, most of them make you think maybe that's the one.
i still think lack of recovery time is the big culprit. and the catchers make me think that way.they very seldom get a break.
i don't usually do this, but my son just signed with the twins on thurs. 1 yr 2 weeks after our trip to alabama. i know many kids have made it back after tj. but it's my first one.lol
20Dad,
Congratulations!
I think college coaches are taking notice, go to Boyd's world and his 2007 comprehensive pitch count report for 2007, then go back a few years. Less and less pitchers are putting in less category 4 and 5 outings.
I agree with Deldad, we are in a time of uncharted waters in youth baseball, but with all of the information we have today, some parents and coaches of very young players are not paying attention to the knowledge that has been presented in just the past 3-4 years.
Congratulations!
I think college coaches are taking notice, go to Boyd's world and his 2007 comprehensive pitch count report for 2007, then go back a few years. Less and less pitchers are putting in less category 4 and 5 outings.
I agree with Deldad, we are in a time of uncharted waters in youth baseball, but with all of the information we have today, some parents and coaches of very young players are not paying attention to the knowledge that has been presented in just the past 3-4 years.
None of us here knows all of the answers for sure. I read many posts from people who say that their teenage sons have never had arm problems, so their methods must be right.
My son never had an arm problem, either, until November of his junior year in college. A single trauma from an awkward 'high five' in his car tore his labrum....resulting in surgery and a red shirt season.
He came back after the redshirt season and his shoulder was great.....Friday starter almost every week.....one weekend coming out of the bullpen in order to rest his elbow a bit......yep, elbow soreness......then with two weeks left in the season, MRI shows a 50% tear in the UCL.....doc says TJ surgery after the season, so he has two very quality starts against Creighton and Wichita State, then TJ surgery and a summer of rehab and coaching.
What are the causes?? Who knows?
At 13 and 14 y.o. I was his coach (it hurt my recruiting for two years)......every kid on the team pitched......no breaking balls until last three weeks of 14 y.o. summer, and then only on 0-1 and 1-2 counts......
HS coach treated him well and took care of his arm......a summer coach perhaps overused him, especially concering short rest......college coaches and summer collegiate league coaches took great care with him........mechanics have always been extremely solid......he is looking forward to his senior season!!!!
My educated guess is that except for 'single trauma' injuries, most pitching arm injuries have multiple causes, and we can eliminate many of the potential causes, with the exception of the one that says things can just happen after several years of pitching.....as RZ's boy said, the arms are not bionic!!
My son never had an arm problem, either, until November of his junior year in college. A single trauma from an awkward 'high five' in his car tore his labrum....resulting in surgery and a red shirt season.
He came back after the redshirt season and his shoulder was great.....Friday starter almost every week.....one weekend coming out of the bullpen in order to rest his elbow a bit......yep, elbow soreness......then with two weeks left in the season, MRI shows a 50% tear in the UCL.....doc says TJ surgery after the season, so he has two very quality starts against Creighton and Wichita State, then TJ surgery and a summer of rehab and coaching.
What are the causes?? Who knows?
At 13 and 14 y.o. I was his coach (it hurt my recruiting for two years)......every kid on the team pitched......no breaking balls until last three weeks of 14 y.o. summer, and then only on 0-1 and 1-2 counts......
HS coach treated him well and took care of his arm......a summer coach perhaps overused him, especially concering short rest......college coaches and summer collegiate league coaches took great care with him........mechanics have always been extremely solid......he is looking forward to his senior season!!!!
My educated guess is that except for 'single trauma' injuries, most pitching arm injuries have multiple causes, and we can eliminate many of the potential causes, with the exception of the one that says things can just happen after several years of pitching.....as RZ's boy said, the arms are not bionic!!