Too Many Pitches?

Something like that would be different for each player. Someone could have a weaker arm, and after throwing 100 pitches, would need to rest for 5-6 days, or else his arm would hurt. There are people who throw 100 pitches and feel fine in 2 days. It depends on the person.

In all likelihood, yes that is too many pitches.

randy johnson and roger clemens have said that the reason their arms are strong today is because no one had ever heard of a pitch count when they were teens.

For every Clemens & Johnson, how many dropped out because of arm injuries? You don't hear about those.

An oldtimer once told me that there were many, many pitchers in the earlier days who fell out because of arm abuse. But it was just considered part of the game. It wasn't something that was talked about, and the press didn't do any big investigative stories on it.

There will always be some who can get away with it. Is it worth risking serious injury to find out if you are the one who cannot?

There are less stressful ways than pitching to build arm strength and flexibility.

Cath43 is correct in that every pitcher is different. My son has throw several games at the HS age level that have exceeded 120 -140 pitches. No coach ever made him do this and he was always in control of his game. You have to know your own limits and your bady. He needs 4-5 days between outings if he pitches a lot. His arm/shoulder never hurts but gets tired. If it ever hurt he would be at the doctor next day.
Last Thursday he threw 7 innings with more than normal # of pitches. He has been asked to close a couple inns tonight against the #1 team in the league and he won't know if he is ok until he does a bull pen and loosens up his arm. I have seen other guys who can throw 2 days in a row. My guys arm won't respond unless he has 4-5 days rest. I am not sure that he would wreck his arm by pitching too soon but his coaches are all asking him if he has anything left everytime he goes out. His last outing I could see signs of him tiring but he kept wanting to go out. He ran out of gas in the 7th but his arm felt fine and he was merely tired. It is by belief that you have to push yourself in order to strengthen your arm but know when you are done. The pitcher needs the stress to get better.

BBHD, that approach risks cumulative damage.

Again, a few can get away with it. But it would be tough to find out that you are one who can't.

Again, there are ways to build arm strength other than just pitching in games.

Yes Texan I have a friend in the minors who had scarind of the shoulder tissue which was cumalative and not discovered until his 1st year in A ball. Repaired and back out there throwing great again.
My son as I have said is examined 2 times a year by a doctor who evalusted pitchers for the Texas Rangers. He used to work with some of the greatest pitchers in MLB. He works with Tom House on all his books. We are lucky to have a guy like this to work with. In Niagara Falls there is another doctor who does the same thing with the Jays.The cumulataion usually comes from an injury that is not tended to when it happens.
You can't treat all pitchers the same. Teach the kids to know the difference between pain or something that dosen't feel right and a tired arm.

I think at 15yo that's too many. But you seem to be able to handle it.

If you are concerned then speak up and protect your own health.

There's no glory in winning at the risk of your own future.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
You can't treat all pitchers the same.

Exactly. That is why, IMHO, we need to be on the conservative side when we give advice on topics such as this one. Better to assume that the pitcher is NOT one of the few that can consistently throw high pitch counts, than to find out that he can't.

It is not unusual in pro ball for clubs to limit pitchers to less than 100. And those are grown men with fully matured bodies.

I just can't advise a 15YO - and that deserves emphasis, a 15YO - to routinely throw over 100 pitches in games.

The whole secret to longevity is great mechanics, great work outs and lots of proper throwing. It is my feeling that the arm will tire long before the number of pitches will wreck your arm.
I am not advocating young pitchers just go out and throw a ton of innings. They need proper instuction and monitering by people that understand pitching. An inning is not the same for everyone or 100 pitches is not the same for everyone. A hard thrower who locks up his elbow when maximizing his effort is not the same as a guy who throws smooth and doesnot maximize his effort. If you watch clips of high level pitchers you can see some who really stress their elbows and throw hard. I would not let that guy throw as many innings as a smoothy who is a locator. The wear and tear is less on the smoothy.
On my son's summer team which is open age Elite senior ball there is a 29 year old who hits low to mid 90s with great mechanics. He is a closer and played NAIA colleg breaking several conference records. He always has a sore arm. he took acouple years off and game back healthy. Pitched 4 perfect innings over a couple games. Now his arm is sore again. He is a great 6'4" RHP who throws low innings. He have another 90+ guy who was a JR D! NCAA pitcher. Lowest ERA on his team. Less than 60 innings as a closer and sore arm. I could go on and on with examples. It was never the # of innings. The D1 guy my son grew up with and he was never abused and always threw low innings.
It is very important to have great knowlegeable coaches and I have always felt that there are not a lot of coaches with knowledge about all aspects of pitching. In my opinion the amount of pitches you throw is a huge factor in arm strength and condition and a small factor in arm injury.

leftypitcher.......

A general rule of thumb for teenage pitchers is to multiply your age X 6 (15 X 6 = 90). You should limit your pitch count to near ninety.......then you should not pitch in a game again until you have rested your arm for 90 hours (or whatever # of pitches you threw in the game).

You still need to get some good running in between starts, ice your elbow/shoulder after strenous throwing, and do your between starts routines such as flat ground work, band work, long toss, etc.

The original question was about a 15-year-old rising junior (I assume about to turn 16 since you're a rising junior) going to 100 pitches once a week, with preparatory bullpens in between, 1/2 per week.

That does not sound excessive to me in and of itself.

If you begin to see symptoms -- pain, loss of velocity, or such -- you should heed those signs right away, not wait for them to get worse. But with proper conditioning and mechanics you should be able to go one 100-pitch stint per week. (Provided that 100 means 100, and not 120 or 130.)

The bullpens should be managed as part of your throwing regimen. The first one should be 3-4 days after your last outing and should emphasize fluid motion and keeping your mechanics sharp. The second one should be 1-2 days before your next outing and should start slow, then work up to full speed, then stop. 25-30 pitches is sufficient, and only 7-10 need to be hard pitches.

If you were to cut back, you should cut back on the game pitching and not on the bullpens. Cutting back on bullpens is a false savings of stress on the arm because going out there once a week without proper conditioning is more likely to cause injury than to prevent injury.

Here is a weekly cycle for you:

Day 1: Pitch in game
Day 2: Arm rest; run approx. 2 miles
Day 3: Soft tossing and running
Day 4: Long toss and running
Day 5: Bullpen at less than full speed
Day 6: Long toss and running
Day 7: Bullpen working up to full speed
Day 8: Next game outing (Day 1 of next cycle)

You can also continue with core conditioning, which focuses on abdomenal strength. A good coach, a health club consultant, physical therapist or chiropractor can give you examples of good exercises to do. Most involve twisting your torso using your legs, or strengthening your lower back with leg raises in various positions. Also use of a medicine ball can be effective.

Some will also do light weight lifting, but in season this can add a lot of fatigue, esp. among teenagers who tend to have difficulty knowing when to stop.

As for the senior league 29-year-old with regular soreness: This is a common issue with us "weekend warriors" as we get older. The throwing muscles stay strong and we find we can still zing it. But we neglect general conditioning and especially the support and deceleration muscles. Senior baseball leagues are infamous for the snapped upper arm bone problem. We've had several cases here locally. Tell your 90+ guy to take better care of himself; he's not as indestructible as he may think.

I am with MidloDad and Bobble on this one. Those pens and throwing are prepartory and 100 pitches and just prep work in between should only help this young man get stronger.
If he had said 100 pitches twice a week and then prep between, then he would have to be monitored more closely for pain, soreness and stiffness.
Take it gradually young man, but take care of your arm always.

Thanks for all the help and advice