Too much risk

youve gotta look out for your sons best interest. yesterday we were in a tournament and we were palying in the championship game and theother team has an ace going D1 to pitch however he pitched only 2 innings to close the last game to maintain their teams lead to get into the champ game. the coach wanted to pitch him however the dad and son both said 'no way, you just dont wait 2 hours between pitching and than continue, if we cant win without me pitching we dont deserve it.'

i totally agree with them

With respect BB1, you have to be joking. In no situation (regardless of what you hear from your son) does the coach have say over the player, or the player "is forced to leave the team" or something like that.

Where does my post say anything about being forced to leave the team? I'm talking about the need for a coach to say nice job, we'll finish it for you instead of asking a kid to continue. I've seen these coaches and other coaches ask kids for one more inning. Which for the time may be fine. As a matter of fact in the situation above my son said he was fine but had a very sore elbow the next day. Which hadn't happened at all this season. There has to be some sort of accumulative affect. This is the actual situation and I'm leaning towards taking him away from this program but am not sure that is the right way to approach it. Is it?

Teach your son to say "Coach Im done". "I did the best I could but Im done". Can you give us one more inning? "No coach I cant, Im done".

If a coach tries to put him back out there without enough rest.

"Coach Im still tight from my last outing. I need some more rest".

If the coach tries to force him to take the mound or threatens him with loss of playing time etc for not taking the mound then fine. Take the time off and rest the arm and be ready next time you are needed.

Kids have to learn to protect themselves if the coach is a clown. If the coach will not do his job the kid has to step up and protect himself.

If these coaches are running kids out there on less than four days rest then there is a problem. You might indeed have to transfer somewhere else in the end I dont know. But you dont have to put your health at risk. Step up and speak up.

Bb1,
Sounds as if you have a valid concern for your son’s health. As they say --- “been there done that”. Not sure how you should handle it but here’s the way I handled it. I got my ducks in a row before I went to the coach. I wrote down on a piece of paper what was an acceptable pitch count. I talked with his summer coach and some scouts about what would be considered damaging in working up the pitch counts. I think I went with either 90 or 100 pitches and then I specified the number of days rest before he pitched again. I got all this in order because I didn’t want to be in a negotiating position when I talked to the coach. Since my son was a pitcher and a catcher there were some special circumstances in his case with pitching and catching both taking a toll on the arm so I had to list those “special circumstances”. I was not angry with the coach nor was I out to prove the coach wrong. All I wanted to do was avoid what I saw as an imminent danger to my son. The coach got upset as I expected he would so I stated my case and left before the conversation turned into an argument. I bought a pitch counter and my wife counted pitches the rest of the season. The coach complied with my request and everything turned out OK.
Understand too that my son’s situation was somewhat different since he had already signed his NLI and I had talked with the college coach and informed him of what I was about to do. He was glad I was doing it.
I am a strong proponed of not dealing directly with the coach in trying to solve your son’s problems but at times there seems to be no other way especially concerning overuse injury. I talked to my son and explained what I was going to do. He was not real “keen” on the idea but he agreed something needed to be done. Why didn’t he talk to the coach? I think each situation is different and maybe some players could handle this with their coach. In my son’s situation ---- I needed to be involved in order to get a satisfactory resolution.
Fungo

PS: I know I'm picky but we need to seperate the facts from the fluff:

quote:

I'm talking about the need for a coach to say nice job, we'll finish it for you instead of asking a kid to continue.

This is a plain and simple plan to avoid injury to your son. Don't try to change a coach and attack his style of coaching. Simply explain the limits you have placed on your son and try to avoid inflamatory remarks about the coach and his style.

My son faced a similar situation in HS, his freshman year. The JV coach was in his first year ever as a baseball coach, and had never heard of pitch counts. He literally wanted my son to pitch every game. He thought the only indicator of whether a pitcher should still go out there for one more inning, was whether he was still getting batters out.

We talked about the problem, but my son insisted on handling it himself. He had to learn to say "No, this is my last inning", and then say it again. What made it particularly hard was ... the head coach was the school principal and of course my son was taught to obey authority. But he knew he had to stick up for himself or wreck his arm. Before going out to the mound for an inning that he thought should be his last based on his arm starting to tire, he would tell the coach, "Coach, this is probably my last inning." The coach did not understand that that meant he should have another pitcher start warming up, and my son had to explain this! Still at the end of that inning, most often my son would have to insist, "No, that was it, my arm is done" (after 5 or 6 innings - he was only 14 yrs old).

Fortunately this coach was somewhat willing to learn from my son about pitch counts, which is not as weird as it sounds because the coach had no experience running practices so he was happy to let my son help with that.

Honestly, I doubt that this approach will work with the coach you described. He sounds like he has a long history of abusing pitchers and thinks he knows what he is doing. We often suggest on this forum that parents let their sons handle things once they are in HS, but this might be a perfect example of when a parent has to step in. Good luck!

I actually do have a meeting set-up with the coach on Tuesday. I am real apprehensive about doing it and actually had been thinking of cancelling it. It just seems like something my son should handle but the coaches don't let the kids say anything, even in private. Now, though I'm going to keep it and come up with a pitch count and the proper rest. At the beginning of the season I bought a pitch counter and let the coaches know I had it, hoping that would be enough for them to know I was monitoring it but it didn't matter. I guess I have to give them specific guidelines I want them to follow. I've seen some rules for his age 15 and it is a max of 80-90 with 4 days rest and anything over 61 a minimum of 3 days rest. So I'll state those numbers as what they have to follow.

bb1,

No, I don't think delineating specific pitch count numbers is the way to go. Rather, try having a general discussion about the benefits of rest between starts, the pitfalls of over-pitching and what have you. I guess what I'm saying is try to give this coach some information and persuade him to your way of thinking..

Then if that doesn't work, lay down the law.

Bum,
The way you suggest handling the situation may work best for you and some personality types but not for me. I’m a YES/NO type person. If I were to attempt to approach it your way I guarantee you it would instantly turn into an argument (in my opinion an argument no parent can win). I could care less about how the coach “thinks” pitchers should be handled --- I’m not trying to modify his way of thinking about pitch counts and rest between starts, I just want a clear understanding as to how my son is to be handled.
Fungo

What Fungo said.

Here's a link to a paper by the ASMI (American Sports Medicine Institute).

http://www.asmi.org/SportsMed/youth/PITCHCNT.PDF

Going into your meeting with a copy of this, especially tables 3 and 4 which list pitch count and rest recommendations, couldn't hurt.

I guess I'm a coach and sons worst nightmare.
Maybe its because I'm a mom but I didn't spend my life raising and protecting my child to have some coach abuse and harm his health.
It is not my problem the coach hasn't developed more pitching,but my son has a pitch count. Here is.
If son is embarrassed then he will learn to speak up before I do.

This coach has been a head coach at this school now for 3yrs and at others before that. He must have gotten away with this at other places. I spoke to some graduates yesterday and they basically said he doesn't care. They'll get someone else to pitch when one gets hurt. I think the best idea is to go into the meeting with a definite pitch count. If we can't agree then he doesn't pitch end of conversation. And we start looking for another school and a coach who cares about his players and not just wins. Next time I won't wait until after the season. I just hope it doesn't turn into some kind of arguement. I guess we were lucky with his select coaches they were extremely careful with hurting any kids arms. They cared!

NJBB, Your last sentence is very powerful.

My son is definitely on the quiet side and has been taught to listen to his coaches. There in lies the real problem what to do when the coach is a _______.
I will show him the reasons that Coach May posted and have him memorize them so he knows what to say when they want more even if he feels he can go more he has to know when enough is enough. That one more pitch, one more batter, one more inning may lead to something serious and may end any prospect for playing in college.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
Teach your son to say "Coach Im done". "I did the best I could but Im done". Can you give us one more inning? "No coach I cant, Im done".

If a coach tries to put him back out there without enough rest.

"Coach Im still tight from my last outing. I need some more rest".

If the coach tries to force him to take the mound or threatens him with loss of playing time etc for not taking the mound then fine. Take the time off and rest the arm and be ready next time you are needed.

Kids have to learn to protect themselves if the coach is a clown. If the coach will not do his job the kid has to step up and protect himself.

If these coaches are running kids out there on less than four days rest then there is a problem. You might indeed have to transfer somewhere else in the end I dont know. But you dont have to put your health at risk. Step up and speak up.

Well said.

I agree with all of this.

quote:

Originally posted by bb1:
I'm very concerned about my son's coaches...There were 3 varsity pitchers with sore arms at the end of the season 1 of which never came back to pitch. The other 2 were seeing therapist to get ready. I've had conversations with a parent who's son suffered a torn labrum. With respected coaches who said they wouldn't send there kid there and actually did send there kids to other schools much farther away. And also 2nd hand info from a parent who's son is in therapy and the therapist stated we get a lot of injuries from that school. It just can't be all coincidence. They've run my son out there with less than 48hrs rest. When based on pitch counts it should have been a minimum of 3 and probably 4.

All of this says to me that you need to be very careful with this coach.

He seems to be more concerned with winning than with the health of his player's arms.

I would hope that the problem is that he's just ignorant of the problem of overuse rather than actively disregarding the problem. I would enter the conversation with the assumption is that he's just ignorant rather than malicious.

If it was my son and he was asked to pitch on too short rest, I would have him protest and then have him tank his warm-ups if the coach forced him to pitch.

quote:

Originally posted by njbb:
I guess I'm a coach and sons worst nightmare.
Maybe its because I'm a mom but I didn't spend my life raising and protecting my child to have some coach abuse and harm his health.
It is not my problem the coach hasn't developed more pitching,but my son has a pitch count. Here is.
If son is embarrassed then he will learn to speak up before I do.

I heard a story over the weekend. Pitcher with a dominating fastball told to pitch breaking ball after breaking ball after breaking ball. Major implications for injury, player quit the team, I say good choice.
Raising a player as a pitcher only, once an injury sets in and pitcher never recovers, there is no other place to go but out of the game. There are no second chances.
Protect your son's future, and those who will come after your son, educate him and don't be afraid of the consequences.
If more EDUCATED parents spoke up on pitcher's abuse in HS, less injuries in college or pro ball.

When it comes to your son's health you have an absolute right to become involved.

Well I have a bunch of questions for the coach and the meeting is set for tomorrow. I know I must keep it to a more or less question and answer kind of thing but I will make a statement as to how many ptiches he should throw and days rest that will be needed and I will not budge on that. If he can't or won't agree then my son doesn't pitch for him anymore. Which regardless of what happens may be the best option. Along with transferring. I'll be back tomorrow and let everyone know how I made out.

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
Bum,
The way you suggest handling the situation may work best for you and some personality types..

Then you don't know me. Because I'd be in your face faster than a gnat in Nashville. But I also believe specific pitch count limits are open to interpretation. Pitching without rest and high pitch-counts in successive starts, however, no way.

Apparently, you didn't read the second part of my statement about laying down the law (if using persuasion doesn't work).

Kids are different. Some are done at 35 pitches. Some 90. Some 120. Mechanics, athleticism, and the kid's general energy level that day all come into play. I gotta tell you, if I were a college coach --you say you still do this in college?-- and I had some parent pacing behind the fence with a counter ticked off because his kid was at precisely 91 pitches I'd think twice before that kid ever started for me again.

College would be different than a 15yr old freshman. Still I believe a coach who cares about his players doesn't push them beyond the limits. It's not just about wins and losses. It's about watching out for the young men that have been entrusted to your care and doing what is best for them and not yourself.

Bum Let's see --- I AGREE that your approach of having a general discussion about the benefits of rest between starts, the pitfalls of over-pitching and what have you. I guess what I'm saying is try to give this coach some information and persuade him to your way of thinking..
I said this might work for you ---- but not me.

Then you come back appear to be ARGUING WITH YOURSELF because now you say :

quote:

Then you don't know me. Because I'd be in your face faster than a gnat in Nashville

What's faster than a gnat in Nashville? Is that similar to Speedier than a Sasquatch on Snoqualmie?

quote:

I gotta tell you, if I were a college coach --you say you still do this in college?-- and I had some parent pacing behind the fence with a counter ticked off because his kid was at precisely 91 pitches I'd think twice before that kid ever started for me again.

While my son did pitch in college I never said anything about monitoring his pitch counts in college. Players are more mature and independent than in high school and can handle these situations better. Besides, the larger college parks are such that coaches wouldn’t be aware of a fan monitoring pitch counts anyway.

As bb1 states there is a big difference between high school and college age players. There is also more “quality” pitchers on a college roster than on a small high school that sometimes have to rely on the one or two good pitchers.

We are talking HS pitcher. And we are talking about a 15 year old kid too. I ask my pitchers everytime they come off the mound "How do you feel"? You watch them closely , mechanics etc and you monitor them during an outing. When they start to get into the 80 pitch count area you really start to bore down on looking at mechanics , velocity decrease , ability to controll their stuff etc etc. Heck Ive taken kids out many a time because (I felt they had thrown enough and they were starting to lose their ability to throw with proper mechanics etc). When a kid tells you he is done guess what "HE IS DONE"! You dont put a kid back on the hill untill he has gone through the proper recuperation phase. Day 1 pitch. Day 1 run after you pitch and stretch. Day 2 run run run and stretch some more. Day 3 toss and run and stretch. Day 4 long toss , toss and run as well as stretch. Day 5 toss , light pen , light run , and stretch. Day 6 (pitch). How can you be ready to go again if your not allowed to get ready to go again? Why do you see so many HS pitchers that are effective early in the season and then by the end of the season their velocity is down the ability to throw strikes is down and quite frankly they are just worn down. Then they go into summer ball then fall ball and finally they are toast. Pitchers should be at their best the longer the season goes. Our #1 has thrown 55 innings. #2 52 innings. #3 40 innings. #4 37 innings. And we have three guys that have thrown a combined 14 innings. No one has thrown a pitch on less than four days rest. The fact is coaches that do not allow guys the proper rest and then give them a game plan to prepare for the next start are not good coaches. You as a parent should not have to say anything. First thing is your son has to speak up for himself. You have to arm him with the information to address the coach with and the backing as well. If this does not work then YOU have to step up. I have seen parents afraid that they were going to hurt their kid if they said anything to the coach. NO , your hurting your kid if you do not step up. Let him be the one that steps up first. Any coach that puts a kid back out their that tells him he is done should not be coaching. Why in the world would any coach want a guy on the hill or anywhere else on the field that tells him he is done? You can agree or disagree with what we do that is fine. But I can look in the mirror and live with it. And to me thats all that really matters.

Coach I wish I lived in NC. At least I would know he was in good hands. You described my sons school to the tee. He started out great but did nothing between starts, no bullpens, ran the first day after. That's it. By the last game he just didn't seem to be the same pitcher. There just isn't any help for the pitchers, especially the underclassman. They had a senior recently throw 140+. Now I know what he needs to do after starts and he will follow it with or without the coaches help. Thanks.
I'm no longer apprehensive about speaking to his coach and spoke with my son tonight and told him that if they won't agree to pitch counts of a max of 90 and then 4 days rest he is not going to throw for them again. He was fine with it.

Fungo,

I'm on the desert side of Washington. No place to hide for 'squatch. Faster than a rattler after a Seattler.

Every kid is different. Some kids can go longer than others. But all of them need rest and proper training between starts. Im not as big on pitch counts as I am on the amount of pitches thrown in a particular inning. Or the loss of sound mechanics etc. Some kids need to be on a shorter leash than others depending on age strength ability to maintain mechanics etc etc. A sr or jr in great shape can go 100 pitches easy by the end of the year if he has been properly brought along. While another kid needs to come out at 75 pitches. You have to know your kids and the kid has to be honest with himself. And he has to know that the coach understands its ok to say your done. I do not believe in babying kids. There are times when they have to suck it up and battle. But they should not be asked to put their arm at risk because the coach does not have faith in putting another kid on the hill. I lost the conference championship game a few years back because our #1 stud had given us 7 strong innings in a 1-1 tie and hit the 105 pitch count. We brought in another kid and lost in the 9th 2-1. The other team left their stud in the game he went the distance. That was their coaches decision he has to live with it. I caught alot of flack from the fans except for the dad of the pitcher I took out and our players. They understood the deal. That same kid is now the #1 prospect in with the Braves in Dbl AA. I believed he had more important games to pitch down the road. And we should have scored some runs anyway right?

Coach May

When you get beat 2-1 you cannot blame the pitching

So true TR. I still have people in our community that blame me for the loss because I pulled the pitcher after 7 innings and over 100 pitches. We had 9 innings to put 2 or more on the board and couldnt get it done. I even had people upset that I didnt throw the kid in the second round of the state playoffs that year after he pitched a complete game gem on Tuesday and they couldnt understand why he was not on the hill in the second round on Friday! Needless to say I have not lost any sleep on it or them.

Well the discussion took place and got rather heated on other subjects other than pitch counts. I had to back down. I lost the battle but I will win the war. He basically said there is no such thing as pitch counts in their program but he will go with what I say now but if he ever gets to the varsity that he will throw him as much as he wants. That they are the number one program in the State and if I didn't like it we could move on. Which we will. In watching out for my son I fear I've actually hurt him.

I hear ya, Darned if you do, or don't. At least there is a little voice in the back of his mind now that there are other schools of thought although my experience is with some of these Napoleans they can't conceive of other thoughts past their own. If your kid is successful he will be used if not overused in the future.

I just feel so bad about how it went down. It's just more or less my way or the highway. I'm not going to let them hurt him. So we will bide our time and say and do all the right things and then sometime in the future..... He says they've only had one injury which is a bold face lie. I know there have been many others. They were ranked number one but didn't win it. Kids pitching in pain. What do I do now, I will never trust this guy with my kid. Just waiting for the other shoe to drop.

bb1:

Good for you - you did the right thing in meeting with the coach and establishing reasonable boundaries. If it means you need to put your son into another school, so be it... your grandchildren will thank you when your son can play catch with them.

08

08dad thanks, then why does it feel so bad? This was supposed to be a great experience for him and fun and enjoyable. Better to play rec ball. If there was any place else for him to play summer we would do that in a heart beat. There just isn't. My wife just suggested that we tell them he doesn't want to pitch anymore. I'm not sure that's the right thing to do, better than having him get hurt. I spoke to someone else and he says with the tournaments in the summer and not enough pitchers he'll get used on too few days rest.

Of course it feels bad - part of your son's dream has been sat on by an oaf... Getting the oaf to move isn't easy.

My opinion (and I expect to get flamed for this) is that more arms are ruined in summer ball tournments than any other place. Many teams do not have enough pitching for the 5 games in 3 days or 8 games in 5 days events - and thus what pitching they do have is burned out.

There are almost always other options - shoot - right here on HSBBW there will be a dozen pitching wanted ads within the month. Your son may have to travel, your son may have bounce from team to team - but there are other ways.

Sit down with your son and wife and decide what your goals are for the summer. Then find a way to meet those goals through other means than the high school team - and also find another high school!! Transferring as a freshman is easy - but in another year, rules (at least here in CA) will make it more difficult.

08

I've got calls out to everyone I know that might be able to help. Just got off the phone with a P/T scout and he stated that what he has seen through out the State playoffs is a travesty. Also said my sons school is among the worst if not the worst. Problem we may have is transferring schools because many are at capacity. So we may be stuck at least for now but I'll find a way to make things work. It can only get better.

quote:

then why does it feel so bad?

If this feels bad, just imagine the feeling you would have if you did not step in and your son was headed for the operating room or was finished throwing prematurely.

Parents have to go with their intuition. Instincts are in us for a reason.

Confrontation doesnt always feel good, but is sometimes necessary.

Don't feel bad.

SSmom, that is a great point and makes me feel a lot better because if he was to need an operation and I didn't say anything I would never forgive myself. I'm going to give it a little time for me to cool down and then make what I hope will be the best decision.

My son just got back from practice and we went over what went on between me and the varsity coach. Tough to tell him but he came through like a champ. Saying how he understood and that he played great today the first day of summer workouts. It won't effect him which is the most important thing. His coach and me that's another but it doesn't really matter. There will come a time when we will be able to say "See Ya". He's moving on. Someday too I will let the people in charge know exactly what goes on with regards to all the ptichers.

Good for you for protecting your son .... Not just today but years from now!! I've known many people whos old high school injury came back to haunt them when the reached middle age.