I just found out that I know the right person. A person who can help get him into another school if that's what we decide. I'll take time, take a step back, relax and not make an emotional decision. Cause I was so livid when I went there I must have made 15 phone calls returning to the parking lot. I have no doubt that this coach cares absolutely nothing about my son or any of the kids in the program. He will one day get him hurt. It's all about wins and if one kid gets hurt there will be another. Not the best way to build a program or team loyalty. I wonder how many of the kids come back and visit after graduation. I'll bet not many. I know I've had my differences with people on this board but you are all there with support when things get tough.
quote:bb1 quote:
I just found out that I know the right person. A person who can help get him into another school if that's what we decide. I'll take time, take a step back, relax and not make an emotional decision.
Tough decisions that involve your kids that are caused by others outside your "family unit", and where your emotions are tested, sometimes it helps to have a non-involved, knowledgable third party to bounce things off of. Once you walk away, there's no turning back. While I agree with your look on things, we try to teach our kids not to walk away from problems. I look at this as if your son had a job, and that job could affect his health, you would do everything in your power to get him out of there.
No parent should tolerate flagrant abuse. If baseball is this kid's future then perhaps transferring is the best option. It is the last resort, but maybe the best option.
How do you HSBBW members feel about bb1 going to the Athletic Director with his (health) concerns?
How do you HSBBW members feel about bb1 going to the Athletic Director with his (health) concerns?
Bum, as I see it going to the AD just complicates the situation. You can bet it has to really offend the coach to have a parent “go over his head” and go to his boss. Besides, you can’t be sure how the AD is going to receive your complaint and your complaint may even offend the AD. I think it just muddies the water. I say go directly to the coach as bb1 did and clearly state your concerns and what it will take to calm those concerns.
Bb1, you did the right thing in my opinion. I might add that the “healing process” is just as important too. If your son doesn’t transfer to another school it is important that the coach ultimately have a good relationship with your son. This is quite possible if you back off and let him “lick his wounds”. You have stuck the dagger in his heart (so to speak) now you need to quit turning it and let things him recover from the attack. You have accomplished what you set out to do (you have to read between the lines) ---
Fungo
Bb1, you did the right thing in my opinion. I might add that the “healing process” is just as important too. If your son doesn’t transfer to another school it is important that the coach ultimately have a good relationship with your son. This is quite possible if you back off and let him “lick his wounds”. You have stuck the dagger in his heart (so to speak) now you need to quit turning it and let things him recover from the attack. You have accomplished what you set out to do (you have to read between the lines) ---
He is just posturing with the harsh words but at the same time he admits he will comply with your request AND he will continue to pitch him on varsity. You have to understand his emotional reaction is normal because you jumped into HIS sand box, climbed all over his case, and now it’s time to retreat and observe. This may sound out of character from me but at some point in time (later) you might even apologize to the coach for doing as you did. That would be a great time to reaffirm your position on overuse.quote:He basically said there is no such thing as pitch counts in their program but he will go with what I say now but if he ever gets to the varsity that he will throw him as much as he wants.
Fungo
I agree with Fungo... You made your point, now wait and see. People say many things.. but its what they do thats important. He may do the right thing.
There is a new AD in the picture and he was the JV coach last year, I think that says it all about going to him. I'd probably have to go higher.
RZ1, I think that is exactly why I am so apprehensive about switching schools, there would be no turning back and no promise that it would be any better anywhere else. My son has never quit anything in his life and though it may not be actually quiting it sure seems that way. Like your running away when things get tough. Well that's not our mentallity. It's always been work harder, hustle, have a great attitude and someone will notice. That works for playing time but what about when you want to pitch less.
My relationship with this coach is over, I can never have any respect for someone who doesn't care if he hurts someone. My son feels okay about the situation and I think he will be fine. I'm just not sure how they will treat him. If they will hold it against him. If he keeps improving and can get the velocity up. I'm sure they will use him.
What is also unbelievable and they probably think I called him ahead of practice yesterday but I didn't. He tweaked his side throwing the first bullpen in forever and they called the trainer to check him out. That never happened before.
RZ1, I think that is exactly why I am so apprehensive about switching schools, there would be no turning back and no promise that it would be any better anywhere else. My son has never quit anything in his life and though it may not be actually quiting it sure seems that way. Like your running away when things get tough. Well that's not our mentallity. It's always been work harder, hustle, have a great attitude and someone will notice. That works for playing time but what about when you want to pitch less.
My relationship with this coach is over, I can never have any respect for someone who doesn't care if he hurts someone. My son feels okay about the situation and I think he will be fine. I'm just not sure how they will treat him. If they will hold it against him. If he keeps improving and can get the velocity up. I'm sure they will use him.
What is also unbelievable and they probably think I called him ahead of practice yesterday but I didn't. He tweaked his side throwing the first bullpen in forever and they called the trainer to check him out. That never happened before.
quote:My relationship with this coach is over, I can never have any respect for someone who doesn't care if he hurts someone
Don't you think it's only fair that if he makes an adjustment then you should adjust too?
quote:He tweaked his side throwing the first bullpen in forever and they called the trainer to check him out. That never happened before.
Maybe you made a positive impact. Sounds like the coach may be looking at things a little differently since the "talk"?????
If he makes an adjustment definitly I would feel differently. I just don't see it happening. There are too many parents who just let things go. They just feel well if that is the way it is then we have to live with it. I know of one parent who's kid needed to see a PT before every game. What a way to go for an 18yr old kid. He was fine with it, not me. I'd love to think things will change and for my son they will have to but I think he'll be the exception and not the rule, only time will tell.
quote:Originally posted by bb1:
If he makes an adjustment definitly I would feel differently. I just don't see it happening. There are too many parents who just let things go. They just feel well if that is the way it is then we have to live with it. I know of one parent who's kid needed to see a PT before every game. What a way to go for an 18yr old kid. He was fine with it, not me. I'd love to think things will change and for my son they will have to but I think he'll be the exception and not the rule, only time will tell.
Stick to your guns. Overuse is a big deal, whether the coach knows it (or believes it) or not.
What you are doing is called parenting, and I wish more people took your view of things.
Also, remember that if your son has a true gift for pitching, he'll be able to pick it up again in college. You might want to consider having your son play OF for the time being.
This year I have scouted several guys who are converted OFers and who I like a lot because of their clean mechanics and the fact that they haven't been overused.
I won't change on the pitch counts. I do not trust them whatsoever. I don't know how good my son could be but I do know I want him to have a chance to get to his full potential which may not be any better than he is now but I'm sure as _____ not going to let them end it. Outfield may be an option, he's played it since he was 8 and is pretty good and could be a lot better with playing time there. Thanks for all the support, it still doesn't feel right but it had to be done. I've since been told of at least 2 and maybe 3 that are looking else where. Maybe the school will get the message and get rid of this guy. It sure is unbelievable what people tell you once they know how you feel. About all the other kids that have been hurt, it just seems to be swept under the rug like a dirty old secret.
I started this thread originally and now I'm back because I truly don't know what to do. Tonight my son threw 148 pitches in a legion game. I felt powerless to stop it. What should I have done? Gone to the coaches and said enoughs enough? I will not let this happen again but what is the proper way to handle it? My son was throwing well and the competitive nature got the best of him and he wanted to finish. They never once asked him how he felt. They just ran him out there. I know somewhere down the line there will be an injury and it is preventable. Do I sit down with my son and have a heart to heart and say you need to limit the pitches you throw if your coaches won't or you can't pitch anymore? I see for sure now that everything I've heard about these coaches is true and I've got to try and get him out of this school, which is easier said then done because of the courses he takes and of course friends.
Where I live the HS coach is not allowed to coach with the players in off season. Is that just here?
148 pitches, I think my husband would have walked to the mound and physically removed his son way before that one.
My 21 year old threw his first complete game this yea, I think his pitch count was a little less than
115. That outing put a damper on his last few games, which really counted.
If you don't do something, he won't be able to pitch anymore. At this point, I would insist he has sufficient rest or call it a summer.
148 pitches, I think my husband would have walked to the mound and physically removed his son way before that one.
My 21 year old threw his first complete game this yea, I think his pitch count was a little less than
115. That outing put a damper on his last few games, which really counted.
If you don't do something, he won't be able to pitch anymore. At this point, I would insist he has sufficient rest or call it a summer.
You need to come up with a signal for him when he's reached his pitch count... maybe you put on a red baseball hat (don't make a big deal or yell out there the number of pitches)... decide on the count and when he reaches it that's it... he tells coach, "Coach I'm done" or "Coach I'm toast" (one I've heard a few times... if he needs an excuse it's ... "I'm getting tightness in my shoulder"... I gotta come out....
I feel bad for you... I remember the stud of my high school team pitched inning after inning... game after game... he goes to a nice D1 and he was done by Xmas of his freshman year, surgery... (he's got a nice sandwhich shop now though)...
I feel bad for you... I remember the stud of my high school team pitched inning after inning... game after game... he goes to a nice D1 and he was done by Xmas of his freshman year, surgery... (he's got a nice sandwhich shop now though)...
i have been following this thread since may,but your last post hit home. son never threw more than 100 pitches in a 7 inn game in high school. as an 18 yr old first legion game 165 in a 9 inn game. the coach road him like a rented mule the rest of the year. he now has a smiley face on the inside of his elbow. if i knew then what i know now, i would have steped in.no young man needs to throw that many pitches.i'm not sure what you can do? but that's not a good place for your son to be. as you know already. the coach needs to talk to a a pt to understand his actions. good luck.
bb1:
This coach has just blown you off; his word about pitch count meant nothing at all. He will not protect your son. Your son has demonstrated he cannot or wont stand up for himself.
Whats left to talk about?
Go to the AD, former coach or not. Get it on record. Send an email summing up your previous discussion with the coach AND the discusssion with the AD to the AD, the principal, and the district office.
If he wants to play ball in high school, transfer. Use the friction with the coach AS the reason for the transfer OR find courses offered at one school not the other.
This is ****. Youth ball coaches maybe, if they are not educated. High school coaches? 150 pitches for a freshman in a means nothing summer program game?
He is TRYING to hurt the boy; maybe to show you who is boss. The outcome here is inevitable if this is not checked.
This coach has just blown you off; his word about pitch count meant nothing at all. He will not protect your son. Your son has demonstrated he cannot or wont stand up for himself.
Whats left to talk about?
Go to the AD, former coach or not. Get it on record. Send an email summing up your previous discussion with the coach AND the discusssion with the AD to the AD, the principal, and the district office.
If he wants to play ball in high school, transfer. Use the friction with the coach AS the reason for the transfer OR find courses offered at one school not the other.
This is ****. Youth ball coaches maybe, if they are not educated. High school coaches? 150 pitches for a freshman in a means nothing summer program game?
He is TRYING to hurt the boy; maybe to show you who is boss. The outcome here is inevitable if this is not checked.
Sit down with your boy and make things clear, help him understand his natural limits, and stress that he needs to be firm with those limits. Don't try and change this coach while your son is playing for him.
I really like trojan-skipper's suggestion. If needed you can do as skipper mentioned and monitor his count discreetly.
While I agree that something needs to be done about this guy, get the word out after your son is through with him. From the sound of it he probably isn't the brightest light on the tree, so maybe your chances of managing him will be better than the other way around.
Best of luck.
I really like trojan-skipper's suggestion. If needed you can do as skipper mentioned and monitor his count discreetly.
While I agree that something needs to be done about this guy, get the word out after your son is through with him. From the sound of it he probably isn't the brightest light on the tree, so maybe your chances of managing him will be better than the other way around.
Best of luck.
I hadn't been following this thread, but it is very timely to a current hot button issue with me. We have a local high school coach who is very abusive of his players. Last year, he kicked a kid off his mandatory summer team because he took a week off to play with us in the Jr. Olympics, then told the kid he'd have to try out as a senior and wasn't guaranteed a spot on the team, even though it would be his fourth year in the program. The kid goes out and makes the team this year and then gets benched for going to visit a prestigious west coast university that he'd just been accepted to, missing a February Saturday scrimmage in the process. The kid persevered and ultimately went on to lead his high school league in hitting and made first team all-city.
Now, the latest issue with this poor excuse for a coach has to do with a young man who is playing summer ball with us. A week ago, we pitched the kid only 35 pitches on Tuesday because his high school summer team (the mandatory one) was going to have him pitching on Friday in a hs summer tournament. Instead, the coach throws him on Thursday, going over 90 pitches, so that he can bring the kid back on Sunday. When I found out about this, I expressed my strong concerns to the boy and his father and urged them to not allow the coach to pitch him on Sunday. Then, I find out the the coach insisted that the kid pitch and threw him 4 1/3 innings on Sunday, with about 60 pitches. When I saw the boy and his father that evening, I pretty much aired them out about giving in to this idiot. The poor kid's arm was hanging, and he has true potential if this high school moron coach doesn't wreck his arm. His fastball sits at 85-87 and touches 88, with a big curveball and decent changeup. He's a 6'4" righty that also plays wide receiver and forward in football and basketball. As a three sport athlete, I don't think he's come close to realizing his baseball potential as he devotes very little time to baseball compared to single sport players.
I've gone and done some research on pitchers who've graduated from this school and who went on to pitch in college or aspired to do so. Virtually none have finished school healthy, and at least six have had arm surgery within a year or two of leaving this high school program. This coach has no business at all being involved with high school athletes.
I've been considering publicly calling this coach out to the attention of everyone on a northern CA website, but have decided that a few more days to cool off are in order before I out him. He needs to be put to a stop.
BB1, maybe this is where you're headed with your son if you don't do something about it, NOW.
Now, the latest issue with this poor excuse for a coach has to do with a young man who is playing summer ball with us. A week ago, we pitched the kid only 35 pitches on Tuesday because his high school summer team (the mandatory one) was going to have him pitching on Friday in a hs summer tournament. Instead, the coach throws him on Thursday, going over 90 pitches, so that he can bring the kid back on Sunday. When I found out about this, I expressed my strong concerns to the boy and his father and urged them to not allow the coach to pitch him on Sunday. Then, I find out the the coach insisted that the kid pitch and threw him 4 1/3 innings on Sunday, with about 60 pitches. When I saw the boy and his father that evening, I pretty much aired them out about giving in to this idiot. The poor kid's arm was hanging, and he has true potential if this high school moron coach doesn't wreck his arm. His fastball sits at 85-87 and touches 88, with a big curveball and decent changeup. He's a 6'4" righty that also plays wide receiver and forward in football and basketball. As a three sport athlete, I don't think he's come close to realizing his baseball potential as he devotes very little time to baseball compared to single sport players.
I've gone and done some research on pitchers who've graduated from this school and who went on to pitch in college or aspired to do so. Virtually none have finished school healthy, and at least six have had arm surgery within a year or two of leaving this high school program. This coach has no business at all being involved with high school athletes.
I've been considering publicly calling this coach out to the attention of everyone on a northern CA website, but have decided that a few more days to cool off are in order before I out him. He needs to be put to a stop.
BB1, maybe this is where you're headed with your son if you don't do something about it, NOW.
bb1 - Is this thread for real? My mouth is hanging open - especially when I read your problems now extend to the summer team. We have plenty of yahoos in our area who will ruin a kid's arm (see comments of 06catcherDad) If he is truly ignorant of arm care, then he is not worthy to coach your kid. If he doesn't care, he is also not worthy.
You must protect him. You have not so far. You are enabling others to destroy him. Sorry if that sounds harsh. Most injuries to arms are cumulative through overuse. Your son's is an accident waiting to happen. Pull him from the high school. Pull him from his legion team. If he has talent, get him to someone who appreciates it. If you don't, what will you do when he says to you years from now - "Dad, why didn't you protect me?"
You must protect him. You have not so far. You are enabling others to destroy him. Sorry if that sounds harsh. Most injuries to arms are cumulative through overuse. Your son's is an accident waiting to happen. Pull him from the high school. Pull him from his legion team. If he has talent, get him to someone who appreciates it. If you don't, what will you do when he says to you years from now - "Dad, why didn't you protect me?"
I agree with brod. You show paralysis by analysis. Time to act! Screw protocol and yank the kid, NOW. Put him in another school, and tell EVERYONE about your experience. And by the way.. take a few pitchers with you when you bolt.
In our area you cannot just "bolt" from your school---you have to attend the school in your town/district
We also do not allow HS coaches to coaches their players in the off season
The young men need to stand up for themselves and tell the coach "I have had it. Take me out"
I used to think my son was nuts but now I think he was right---his HS coach brought him in from CF to pitch on a 40 degree day-- he got the allowed 8 warmups and then proceeded to walk the first batter on 4 pitches out comes coach screaming at him--my son handed him the ball and walked back to his normal CF position---in handing coach the ball my son politely told him " Don't ever ask me to pitch for you again!"--- and he never did
Kids have to be tough at times
We also do not allow HS coaches to coaches their players in the off season
The young men need to stand up for themselves and tell the coach "I have had it. Take me out"
I used to think my son was nuts but now I think he was right---his HS coach brought him in from CF to pitch on a 40 degree day-- he got the allowed 8 warmups and then proceeded to walk the first batter on 4 pitches out comes coach screaming at him--my son handed him the ball and walked back to his normal CF position---in handing coach the ball my son politely told him " Don't ever ask me to pitch for you again!"--- and he never did
Kids have to be tough at times
I am a former HS coach of 20 yrs-not baseball but basketball-and I have seen and heard of parents going to the school board with some ridiculous stuff. THIS IS NOT ONE OF THOSE CASES!! If this idiot has indeed injured many pitchers, talk to them, get them on board with you, and go to the school board. This, IMO, borders on negligence if not downright abuse; and believe me, boards no the meaning AND consequences of the word negligence. If they don't act, the haul A** as fast as you can. Whatever it takes on your part, get him out of that environment if the environment does not change!
The key is having others with you, so you don't come off as just a disgruntled wacko....
The key is having others with you, so you don't come off as just a disgruntled wacko....
I agree that the kid must know when to say enough is enough. However, many young pitchers don't know their limits and want the ball. The parent will be left holding the bag (or medical bill) when the kid gets hurt. Get with the coach early on and TELL him that your son will be on a pitch count and it is NON-Negotiable. I have had many parents take that approach with our past coaching staffs, and maybe because we understood arm health, we were more than happy to comply.
You don't want to be saying, "we should have spoken up sooner" from the hospital waiting room, so take a stand now.
You don't want to be saying, "we should have spoken up sooner" from the hospital waiting room, so take a stand now.
Thanks everyone and I am looking to get him out of this school. It is just that he is a honors student and one of the courses he takes is only offered in 2 other schools. One in another district that is considered a closed school and one that just might not be any better. I've contacted the local HS governing body and am told all their coaches say they are extremely aware of pitch counts. What a croc that is but I will continue on that path for now since this season only has about 10 days left and my son and I will come to an understanding that he can't throw again for a week and possibly not again for them at all.
This is such a fabulous website filled with people willing to share cumulative decades of their baseball experiences. Please listen to these people.
It is very hard for a kid to tell a coach "I'm done. I can't pitch anymore. I got nothin' left." But they must have the confidence and courage to do it.
Arm damage is cumulative. With the advent of the year-round baseball around the country, not just in the warm weather states, it is imperative that all kids shut down for a while. There is no advantage to play all year, or train all year--throw all year--if they end up being FORCED to shut down by an orthopedic surgeon. Timing is everything. It's not good to be hurt just when you need to showcase your baseball talents.
Most coaches are not trained medical doctors, or anatomy and physiology instructors. Although some do care about their players' health, I'm not sure that can be said about all. By the way, there is no such thing as a "safe curve ball", as was taught to my son by a highly regarded travel team coach and former pitching star at a major university.
Immediately after my 17 year old had labrum surgery, his doctor told us that the shoulder doesn't know whether it is pitching a ball or throwing a ball. Too much throwing is too much throwing. They need to give their muscles significant time to rest.
When researching colleges, please ask about the injuries on the team. I don't know what a normal percentage of injuries on typical college team is, but I'm not sure that 25- 33% is the norm.
Do not take "No, you can't go to the doctor; you didn't give the trainer enough time" as your final answer. It is your son's health, arm, and future--if only to teach his children or nieces and nephews how to throw a ball--not the coach or trainer or athletic director's future. I'm not even addressing the financial aspects of surgery and physical therapy--after your deductible, the 20-30% that you may pay is STILL a lot of money. And time is priceless, of course.....
We didn't take "No" for an answer. But it is too late anyway. If we knew about this website and the valuable resource within it before we did, who knows, perhaps my older son would be spared what is in store for him on July 23.
And oh by the way, alot of kids (I won't say ALL) think they are invincible, that it won't happen to them. It can and it may.
It is very hard for a kid to tell a coach "I'm done. I can't pitch anymore. I got nothin' left." But they must have the confidence and courage to do it.
Arm damage is cumulative. With the advent of the year-round baseball around the country, not just in the warm weather states, it is imperative that all kids shut down for a while. There is no advantage to play all year, or train all year--throw all year--if they end up being FORCED to shut down by an orthopedic surgeon. Timing is everything. It's not good to be hurt just when you need to showcase your baseball talents.
Most coaches are not trained medical doctors, or anatomy and physiology instructors. Although some do care about their players' health, I'm not sure that can be said about all. By the way, there is no such thing as a "safe curve ball", as was taught to my son by a highly regarded travel team coach and former pitching star at a major university.
Immediately after my 17 year old had labrum surgery, his doctor told us that the shoulder doesn't know whether it is pitching a ball or throwing a ball. Too much throwing is too much throwing. They need to give their muscles significant time to rest.
When researching colleges, please ask about the injuries on the team. I don't know what a normal percentage of injuries on typical college team is, but I'm not sure that 25- 33% is the norm.
Do not take "No, you can't go to the doctor; you didn't give the trainer enough time" as your final answer. It is your son's health, arm, and future--if only to teach his children or nieces and nephews how to throw a ball--not the coach or trainer or athletic director's future. I'm not even addressing the financial aspects of surgery and physical therapy--after your deductible, the 20-30% that you may pay is STILL a lot of money. And time is priceless, of course.....
We didn't take "No" for an answer. But it is too late anyway. If we knew about this website and the valuable resource within it before we did, who knows, perhaps my older son would be spared what is in store for him on July 23.
And oh by the way, alot of kids (I won't say ALL) think they are invincible, that it won't happen to them. It can and it may.
Good read on protecting pitchers
[URL=http://www.masterpitching.com/Perspectives/Mother%20Hens%20CB.htm]
[URL=http://www.masterpitching.com/Perspectives/Mother%20Hens%20CB.htm]
The reaserch is out there why don't you guys read some of it. Too easy to jump on the band wagon . Many magor universities have done extensive studies. There was a great Stanford study on TV the other night on pitching mechanics. Computerized studies that I found very informative.
learn about the stuff you think you know before blaming the coach.
For example a study done by ASMI.
Kinetic Comparison of Various Types of Pitches
The purpose of this study was to establish and compare shoulder and elbow force and torque kinetics among 16 collegiate pitchers when throwing the fastball, changeup, curveball, and slider. Peak kinetics for nine of the 14 parameters showed significant differences among the four pitch variations. The fastball group (FA) consistently generated significantly greater kinetics than the changeup group (CH) (nine parameters) and curveball group (three parameters), while the CU consistently produced significantly greater kinetics than the CH (seven parameters). For two parameters the slider group (SL) produced significantly greater kinetics than the CU and CH. No significant differences were observed between the FA and SL. Since the CH consistently generated the lowest kinetics among the four pitch variations, shoulder and elbow injury potential may be lower when throwing the changeup compared to throwing the fastball, slider, or curveball. Shoulder and elbow kinetics were quite similar among the FA, SL, and CU, with only three parameters showing significant differences among these pitch variations. Hence, this study did not offer any credence to a common belief of many coaches that throwing a curveball is more stressful to the throwing arm compared to throwing a fastball. Understanding shoulder and elbow kinetic differences among different pitches can help assess joint loads and potential injury
There are studies that could help you understand what you a talking about. There even FREE. If you want to be responsible do some research.
This site is a great source of information about some things but not for medical or mechanics advice.
learn about the stuff you think you know before blaming the coach.
For example a study done by ASMI.
Kinetic Comparison of Various Types of Pitches
The purpose of this study was to establish and compare shoulder and elbow force and torque kinetics among 16 collegiate pitchers when throwing the fastball, changeup, curveball, and slider. Peak kinetics for nine of the 14 parameters showed significant differences among the four pitch variations. The fastball group (FA) consistently generated significantly greater kinetics than the changeup group (CH) (nine parameters) and curveball group (three parameters), while the CU consistently produced significantly greater kinetics than the CH (seven parameters). For two parameters the slider group (SL) produced significantly greater kinetics than the CU and CH. No significant differences were observed between the FA and SL. Since the CH consistently generated the lowest kinetics among the four pitch variations, shoulder and elbow injury potential may be lower when throwing the changeup compared to throwing the fastball, slider, or curveball. Shoulder and elbow kinetics were quite similar among the FA, SL, and CU, with only three parameters showing significant differences among these pitch variations. Hence, this study did not offer any credence to a common belief of many coaches that throwing a curveball is more stressful to the throwing arm compared to throwing a fastball. Understanding shoulder and elbow kinetic differences among different pitches can help assess joint loads and potential injury
There are studies that could help you understand what you a talking about. There even FREE. If you want to be responsible do some research.
This site is a great source of information about some things but not for medical or mechanics advice.
We all know of HS coaches that have mishandled pitchers. However, there are other issues that contribute to an injured arm. As previously pointed out, the right conditioning between starts is important(Excellent point on arms wear down as the season progresses, I see it all the time) I have seen a lot of pitchers throw seven, pack their stuff up, and head out somewhere with their teamates. NEVER even crossed their mind to ice down. Diet, sleep, and hydration are very important and more often then not neglected. Weightlifting! A lot of highschool pitchers are lifting weights without the necessary instruction. A poorly designed weight program for a pitcher could lead to injury as well. Mechanics! Pitching mechanics is not my expertise, but I have been told by many experts that poor mechanics have a significant impact on an arms durability. Futhermore, they say
poor mechanics are more prevelant than good mechanics.
How good is their off season training, or are they even doing it? A lot of pitchers are 2 & 3 sport athletes and they are not getting the proper off season conditioning pitchers should have to stay healthy. Some others don't do it because they are just lazy.
I have seen pitchers that have been very well taken care of/protected and get injured. I have also seen pitchers get mishandled terribly, yet they stay injury free. ??????
Arm injuries are way up. HS coaches were abusing arms 20 years ago just as badly as they do now.(Not saying all HS coaches abuse, my sons HS coach is a fantastic manager of arms)
Is it the structure of summer tournaments (5-9 games in three days)? Is it the year around play?
Also, years ago mounds were 45ft until age 13. Now the kids are playing larger dimension at an earlier age. Many are also playing HS rules at age 9 -12,
adding even more stress(mental & physical) to pitchers.
My point is...given the modern day landscape of baseball, and the rigors it imposes on pitchers. I believe in order to give a kid better odds at staying healthy you have to do alot more than count pitches. Don't get me wrong, Pitch counts and rest are very important, but other things are too.
<<<<<<<<DIRTY KNUCKLE SLURVE
poor mechanics are more prevelant than good mechanics.
How good is their off season training, or are they even doing it? A lot of pitchers are 2 & 3 sport athletes and they are not getting the proper off season conditioning pitchers should have to stay healthy. Some others don't do it because they are just lazy.
I have seen pitchers that have been very well taken care of/protected and get injured. I have also seen pitchers get mishandled terribly, yet they stay injury free. ??????
Arm injuries are way up. HS coaches were abusing arms 20 years ago just as badly as they do now.(Not saying all HS coaches abuse, my sons HS coach is a fantastic manager of arms)
Is it the structure of summer tournaments (5-9 games in three days)? Is it the year around play?
Also, years ago mounds were 45ft until age 13. Now the kids are playing larger dimension at an earlier age. Many are also playing HS rules at age 9 -12,
adding even more stress(mental & physical) to pitchers.
My point is...given the modern day landscape of baseball, and the rigors it imposes on pitchers. I believe in order to give a kid better odds at staying healthy you have to do alot more than count pitches. Don't get me wrong, Pitch counts and rest are very important, but other things are too.
TripleD I agree with what you have posted.
Our HS pitchers were limited to 12 outs per game. This wasn't to save arms but to reconize the dominance of some pitchers and make the game more equal between loaded teams.
Our Travel teams were always worried about over use and they should be because most of the kids didn't condition to the level they needed to.
Our Elite teams got the better coaching and they conditioned all year. We had very few arm injuries and often it was catchers who were injured the most.
Some kids are prone to injury and some are not. Some kids speak up when they are done and others don't.
The research is out there and available on the internet. ASMI has done a lot of research and they are even inconclusive because of all the variables involved. I also have seen guys who don't take care of their arms and who have never been injured.
If you want to take good care of your arm it involves knowledge, conditioning, good mechanics, diet and good genes. Also some plai old luck.
I also recommend acheckup by a sports Chyro.
Our HS pitchers were limited to 12 outs per game. This wasn't to save arms but to reconize the dominance of some pitchers and make the game more equal between loaded teams.
Our Travel teams were always worried about over use and they should be because most of the kids didn't condition to the level they needed to.
Our Elite teams got the better coaching and they conditioned all year. We had very few arm injuries and often it was catchers who were injured the most.
Some kids are prone to injury and some are not. Some kids speak up when they are done and others don't.
The research is out there and available on the internet. ASMI has done a lot of research and they are even inconclusive because of all the variables involved. I also have seen guys who don't take care of their arms and who have never been injured.
If you want to take good care of your arm it involves knowledge, conditioning, good mechanics, diet and good genes. Also some plai old luck.
I also recommend acheckup by a sports Chyro.
3d, bh
while i do agree players don't take care of themselves as they should. nutrition,off season etc. when grown men that get paid to pitch don't throw 148 pitches ,why would you think it's ok for a hs kid? i'm not sure you can train well enough to do that at 16 or 17. but i do agree with your theory.and as much as players need to workout coaches need to place the development of a player and team ahead of everything else. jmo
while i do agree players don't take care of themselves as they should. nutrition,off season etc. when grown men that get paid to pitch don't throw 148 pitches ,why would you think it's ok for a hs kid? i'm not sure you can train well enough to do that at 16 or 17. but i do agree with your theory.and as much as players need to workout coaches need to place the development of a player and team ahead of everything else. jmo
quote:grown men that get paid to pitch don't throw 148 pitches ,why would you think it's ok for a hs kid? i'm
Didn't say it, nor infer it!!
Letting a kid go that long is criminal.
You may have missed my point. We all know about pitch counts and rest. If you want your pitcher to have a better chance at staying healty do these other things too. btw.. these other things take a great deal of effort by the parent and kid.
Oh, another thing that bugs me is the lack of bullpen supervision. I don't know how many times I have seen kids in the bullpen throw way too much and way too hard.
The limits are different for different pitchers.
I always worry that not throwing enogh is just as if not more risky than over throwing. The arm tires naturally and slows down. A pitcher has to know when he is done and be able to call it.
I can't remember a coach not asking my son if he was ok before going out. I guess I have never seen a bad coach.
I always worry that not throwing enogh is just as if not more risky than over throwing. The arm tires naturally and slows down. A pitcher has to know when he is done and be able to call it.
I can't remember a coach not asking my son if he was ok before going out. I guess I have never seen a bad coach.
quote:Is it the year around play?
I am from pennsylvania. Here is what goes on now in some cases. School ball starts March goes to June. Then you have various summer programs Legion Babe Ruth etc Then some play fall ball and in January and February tournaments in Florida. coached HS for many years did not have that. I was happy they played in the summer then on to other sports. Take a break. Another thing with arm injuries is mechanics. Despite what some would think there is a proper way to throw a baseball. with all the above and not throwing properly you have more of a problem.How many pitches is too many. My theory if a kid has a high pitch count in the third inning many times things are not going well. He is done.
common sense.
My son has worked on core training, tubes and weights on a regular basis. I believe he puts in more time then most. He could get hurt almost anytime regardless of pitch counts but when a person we should be able to trust puts him in harms way that's another thing. What do you do if you can't trust the coach. Move on!
He's 15. They do no bullpens between games, some practice and minimal long toss. The wheels turn slowly but they are turning and if I can help it he won't be there next year.
I made sure he understood that he did nothing wrong, he wants to compete and that is why he pitches. We have come up with a way for me to let him know that this is his last inning without going into pitch counts with anyone. It will be for me and him.
He's 15. They do no bullpens between games, some practice and minimal long toss. The wheels turn slowly but they are turning and if I can help it he won't be there next year.
I made sure he understood that he did nothing wrong, he wants to compete and that is why he pitches. We have come up with a way for me to let him know that this is his last inning without going into pitch counts with anyone. It will be for me and him.
bb1 you move on. How is your son going to get better ?
quote:We have come up with a way for me to let him know that this is his last inning without going into pitch counts with anyone. It will be for me and him.
If I read that correctly, you have devised a signal as to when he is done.
Now, when he is done is he going to tell the coach he is done or is he going to bounce 2 on the plate and 2 in the backstop until he gets pulled.
Hopefully, he will tell the coach he is done. The other way will not work.
bb1:
Good man. You have it in place that the kid gets to:
1. Play baseball
2. Stay away from being abused
3. Continue at his school... which is VERY important at many levels.
Best wishes to you. (if all that doesn't work just move to Kansas and I'll take him)
Good man. You have it in place that the kid gets to:
1. Play baseball
2. Stay away from being abused
3. Continue at his school... which is VERY important at many levels.
Best wishes to you. (if all that doesn't work just move to Kansas and I'll take him)
BB
If you do end up transfering schools make sure you understand the rules in your state regarding transfering.
I my state, if you transfer you have to sit out one
season unless the folowing conditions are met.
1- Move to a new district, or move in with a relative in that district.
2- Financial hardship, you must prove that your current school is causing a finacial hardship that your new school does not.
There are a few other obscure exemptions, but
not common.
Also, the AD has to give you a release and they can make it difficult sometimes.
Most states have these rules in place to detour students from transfering for athletic reasons.
Which is exactly what you are considering.
So just doublecheck before making a big decision.
If you do end up transfering schools make sure you understand the rules in your state regarding transfering.
I my state, if you transfer you have to sit out one
season unless the folowing conditions are met.
1- Move to a new district, or move in with a relative in that district.
2- Financial hardship, you must prove that your current school is causing a finacial hardship that your new school does not.
There are a few other obscure exemptions, but
not common.
Also, the AD has to give you a release and they can make it difficult sometimes.
Most states have these rules in place to detour students from transfering for athletic reasons.
Which is exactly what you are considering.
So just doublecheck before making a big decision.
Not sure what you are encouraging. If he is communicating with his son on the field with hand signals or scratching his hooves on thye ground like Trigger, that is too funny to believe.
I have seen it and the one time a coach went into tyhe stands and told him his son was finished if he did that one more time.
I have sat there and watched parents do that and it is a huge joke.
I have seen it and the one time a coach went into tyhe stands and told him his son was finished if he did that one more time.
I have sat there and watched parents do that and it is a huge joke.
Bobble
lol
Calling pitches in the stands is one thing, protecting the health of your son by giving him an indication of hitting a pitch count is quite another. But the pitch count is where it stops, don't give him a signal to be done when he is having a bad outing, thats the coaches job.
I really don't advocate parental involvement at all, but if you have to protect from the coach....
Ya gotta do what ya gotta do.
lol
Calling pitches in the stands is one thing, protecting the health of your son by giving him an indication of hitting a pitch count is quite another. But the pitch count is where it stops, don't give him a signal to be done when he is having a bad outing, thats the coaches job.
I really don't advocate parental involvement at all, but if you have to protect from the coach....
Ya gotta do what ya gotta do.