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Top Prospects Class of 2011 - Your Turn

VirginiaPreps.comVirginiaPreps.com100+ posts
We recently sent out requests to scouts, coaches, etc. for their input on the 'best of the best' from the Class of 2011... the top 15-20 prospects in Virginia.

The feedback has been very good, and next month we will be publishing a compilation of the responses we received.

Now we would like to hear from the folks on this board on who you feel like are the truly elite prospects from the Class of 2011.

We will be posting a similar topic item for the Class of 2012.

Let's discuss the top 2011 prospects, who do you think belongs (and why!)
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Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
You've narrowed it down to 15-20 already ...

And you want to narrow it down even further?

Let's start with who you have in your top 20, then we won't be digressing into guys beyond that set.

The real problem is with ranking guys you haven't seen play. I don't know if we'll have much more than our love for a particular guy, or hearsay as to another guy, to go by.
fenwaysouthfenwaysouth10,000+ posts
quote:
The real problem is with ranking guys you haven't seen play. I don't know if we'll have much more than our love for a particular guy, or hearsay as to another guy, to go by.


Bingo. Yahtzee. Golf clap to above statement.

IMHO these lists are a bad idea to post publically. While I understand Virginia Preps does a very good job of promoting & teaching players that come to their events, camps, combines, etc....you have to PAY to be seen by them. That can be a difficult pill to swallow by some kids & parents. I know you will post your list anyway, but I've stated my peace.
Last edited by fenwaysouth
WR WB Reporter1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
You've narrowed it down to 15-20 already ...

And you want to narrow it down even further?


Am not reading Virgina Preps posting as saying they have narrowed it down to 15-20 already. Am reading it to mean that they have asked coaches, scouts, etc. for each of their top 15-20 which could mean many, many more names have been submitted to Virginia Preps.

Perhaps Virginia Preps will clarify which interpretation of their wording is correct.
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
quote:
While I understand Virginia Preps does a very good job of promoting & teaching players that come to their events, camps, combines, etc....you have to PAY to be seen by them.


VirginiaPreps.com is a web-based magazine, not a showcasing organization. No one pays them except to access the subscriber-only content.

Also, to the extent you had them confused with Perfect Game, you would be in error to believe that they rank only guys who've paid to be seen. While going to a showcase assures you get in front of them for an eval, it does not assure a ranking. And there are hundreds of kids ranked every year based on reports gathered from non-PG sources, so the assumption that you have to pay to get ranked is just not correct.

In addition, PG builds dossieres based on performances at team events also. A player might pay a participation fee to his team (or, depending on the program, he might not), but no fee directly to PG. There is a tourney team entry fee paid by the team to PG, but that is no different from any other tourney that the team might enter.

I don't know why this myth persists, but it seems we have it posted here with some regularity. The most that can be said is that paying for a showcase makes it easier to get ranked (if you have the talent to be ranked), but it is not a requirement by any means.
Last edited by Midlo Dad
VirginiaPreps.comVirginiaPreps.com100+ posts
Clarificatoin, we are not trying to narrow down the listing for 2011, in fact, quite the opposite. We asked our scouts and coaching contacts to submit to us the 'best of the best', here we are looking for not only those names, but those that you consider to be prime D-I prospects, who for whatever reason, might have been overlooked, slower in developing, etc. Thanks for the input so far, and we look forward to more!
SB Smith Baseball100+ posts
Potential is there for Troy Applin at Oscar Smith. He had a tremendous summer with the 280 Greenbrier team. He sat at 85-87 when pitching in the American Legion World Series and was able to hold the eventual national champion Oklahoma down while in the game (One high K pitch showed up at 92 on the scoreboard... but he's never come close to throwing that before... I assumed a glitch). He came back the next day at shut down the Oregon team for an inning as well.

Prior to that, in the Legion State Tourney, he was 2-0 with 2 saves in 4 appearances carrying a 0.00 ERA.

He still has work to do... but he's made huge strides since this time last year. In his last outing this spring he pitched a very solid complete game against a strong Grassfield team, allowing just 3 hits.

Biggest issue that he can't control is height. Although he is very athletically built, at the moment he stands a couple of rungs under 6 foot.
Last edited by Smith Baseball
SB Smith Baseball100+ posts
Leland Clemmons (Indian River) was the other 2011 on the Greenbrier team who helped the team reach Spokane.

Clemmons made 2 true MLB Web Gems in the State Tournament and hit a HR at the Danville Braves Stadium... then hit 2 more HRs in regionals in PA at a field that was 360 down the left field line, 380 in left center, and 415 to dead center. He also threw a runner out at home from center in a tight elimination game.

He has tremendous bat, foot, and arm speed/strength and has improved his plate appearances immensely over the past 2 years. Definite 5-Tool player.
EG El gato500+ posts
From the eastern portion of Virginia, I would consider:

Jake Cave (Kecoughtan) - leftie who throws in the low 90's; can play first and outfield; an AFLAC All American whose biggest issue will be deciding between LSU and MLB.

T. J. Costen (First Colonial) - righthanded batter who can fly; plays infield and outfield; best position maybe centerfield; headed to the University of South Carolina next year.

Scott Hurrell (Landstown) - another righthanded batter; can really hit; headed to UNNC next year.

Hunter Higgerson (Great Bridge) - my sleeper pick; gets lost in the shuffle but is very good defender with a strong arm.

Nick Thompson (Western Branch) - won player of the year last year in Tidewater as a junior; can play all four infield positions and is a three pitch pitcher.
Last edited by El gato
redbird5redbird510,000+ posts
PG's 2011 rankings of our VA boys in the Top 500:

1 Jake Cave LHP/OF - Kecoughtan - LSU (26 Nationally)
2 Deshorn Lake RHP - Menchiville (29)
3 TJ Costen SS - First Colonial - South Carolina (64)
4 Kevin White C - St Anne's Belfield - South Carolina (128)
5 Leland Clemmons OF- Indian River - UNC-Charlotte (168)
6 Joe McGillicuddy RHP - WT Woodson - Marshall (200)
7 John "Taylor" McConnell MIF - Poquoson (250)
8 Shawn Morimando LHP - Ocean Lakes - East Carolina (267)
9 Nicholas Thompson SS RHP - Western Branch - East Carolina (291)
10 Nick Christopher RHP IF - Dinwiddie (364)
11 Christian Hamlett OF - Cosby (381)
12 John McGillicuddy RHP - WT Woodson - Marshall (386)
13 Matt Kianka OF - Paul VI - VCU (392)
14 David Spinosa RHP OF - St. Anne's Belfield (411)
15 Patrick Corbett RHP - Tabb- Radford (478)
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
We have players ranked that haven't been to either a PG Showcase or a PG Tournament. That said, every year most all of the top players (based on recruiting and the draft) do attend those events.

Kenny Towns is ranked in the top 1,000. You are correct... He is very good and could easily be in the top 500. We have seen him play several times and it wouldn't surprise me if he ends up being ranked fairly high. We even had a discussion with Brian O'Conner about him in Georgia this past summer.

The problem with naming an individual player is that player might be well known by the person mentioning him... But then again that person might not know very much about most of the other players around the nation that are ranked.

We try to get it right, but getting it exactly right is impossible. We will always miss someone.
Last edited by PGStaff
M MHC7710+ posts
PG, thanks for the explanation. What's so odd is that there are a few kids on the list that I've seen play, and that my son knows and has played with, and never would we have expected that they'd be ranked higher than Kenny. I guess it just reaffirms that it takes training and a certain understanding to do these rankings -- something most of us casual observers (and even fellow players) don't have.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
It's very possible that you and your son are correct and we are wrong. The rankings do change as time goes by. Our goal is to get it as accurate as as we can by next June.

Truth is there might be a couple thousand players that could be ranked in the top 500 in the country. We do try to base it on projection (how good we think a player will be in the future). That is hard to do, but we have been fairly accurate over the years!

Still we respect all opinions that make sense, as yours does.
S SwampboyHSBBWeb Administrator
PGStaff,

The complexity of ranking so many players across the whole country who are improving at different rates, getting hurt, getting better, playing other sports, etc. is just staggering. It's astonishing to me that you guys even dare to undertake the task, let alone put out rankings that have such credibility. I congratulate your effort and appreciate what you do.

Can I bore you with a couple more questions without hijacking the thread too much?

It looks like all but two of the players on this list attended PG showcases and those two played a lot of PG events on an extremely successful Richmond Braves National team. Would it be fair to say that players who go to an early showcase and do well may get early rankings that are higher than what they end up with simply because they are the first players in the class you know about, but that as PG learns more about other players and it gets closer to graduation that everyone finds their level and the players who attend showcases late or not at all work their way into their proper slots?

I also notice that neither UVA's in-state 2011 commitments nor other players with elite D1 commitments (e.g., Evan Beal to South Carolina) are on the list and that no Northern Region first team all-district or all-region players are in this group. Do you look at these other indicators of possible merit at some point to decide who gets a closer look? How does that work?
Last edited by Swampboy
B Baseballfan195810+ posts
I agree, my sons both played with Kenny and both play in college he is a much better player than your ranking indicates. So the question is would my boys and others have a better chance of playing in college if we had spent our money on PG and not the summer showcases? Since PG doesnt look at all the talent equally?
quote:
Originally posted by MHC77:
PG, thanks for the explanation. What's so odd is that there are a few kids on the list that I've seen play, and that my son knows and has played with, and never would we have expected that they'd be ranked higher than Kenny. I guess it just reaffirms that it takes training and a certain understanding to do these rankings -- something most of us casual observers (and even fellow players) don't have.
EH Emanski's Heroes1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Baseballfan1958:
Since PG doesnt look at all the talent equally?


If PG doesn't look at all the talent equally, I would like to know who does. Nobody sees a wider sample of the high school talent in America than PG does. They are ranking the ability of 14-18 year old kids and projecting what they could become in the next several years. That is a pretty inexact science. The only thing that teenage boys will definitely do over the next several years is get older, but PG on balance does an excellent job of ranking the players among their peer group.

Maybe you guys are absolutely right about this Towns kid. I've never seen him play and this post isn't about that at all. My point is that PG has EARNED the benefit of the doubt with their body of work.
redbird5redbird510,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Baseballfan1958:
I agree, my sons both played with Kenny and both play in college he is a much better player than your ranking indicates. So the question is would my boys and others have a better chance of playing in college if we had spent our money on PG and not the summer showcases? Since PG doesnt look at all the talent equally?


They don't look at talent equally?!? That has to be one of the crazier statements I have seen on this board. PG works their butts off to uncover every diamond in the rough. They can only evaluate what they see and when they see it. Will they be able to better evaluate a kid who is at one of their showcases or base it on a recommendation from a dad in Northern Va?

As for how you spend your money, that is up to the indiviudal. If you choose to not go to a PG showcase, you have no right to complain on how they rank kids, IMO.

This is NOT about the kid mentioned above. He is VERY talented and has accepted an offer from a GREAT school. I'd bet he doesn't give a second thought as to where he is ranked.

Jerry, sorry I opened this can of worms.

swampboy,

I don't know if the 2011 rankings have been updated to include verbals like Beal. After speaking with Evan this weekend, I am confident he doesn't care where he is ranked. Smile
Last edited by redbird5
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
We seem to have a never ending, always replenishing supply of people who want to dish out baloney about PG. I need to save the links to past threads so we can just have them handy for copying and pasting the rebuttals.

I wonder if people realize how they come across when they do that. Baseball people know PG is objective and reliable. If you go around saying they aren't, you make yourself look like the dad who was upset to be told that his son wasn't all that. Sour grapes.
V vabaseballfan100+ posts
1. I am not Kenny Towns or his dad and I dont know them.

2. PG is an amazing entity that does an incredible job at what they do. For those who follow this board we all know a this has been discussed ad nauseum. I agree with those who've posted earlier in this thread who are very glad that PG exists. Keep it up guys.

3. #1 and #2 said....PG has "missed the boat" on Towns IMHO. He should be WAY higher on the national list and WAY above some other NoVA kids on this list (again, IMHO). This is not intended to be a knock on PG, however. Maybe Kenny had a rough day or two in front of their evaluators or maybe he just got lost in the shuffle because he's an average sized kid.

Bottom line: No matter how good a group like Perfect Game is ---and they are very, very good--- there is no way lists/rankings are going to be perfect. Most rational people get this, just as most people who've seen Towns play more than once would agree he should at the very least be in the top two highest Patriot District players on PGs list Smile
Last edited by vabaseballfan
M MHC7710+ posts
OMG, all I can say is I'm sorry my question sparked such a furor. I am not Kenny's dad, aunt, cousin or anything else...just someone who has watched him for years and who used him as a point of reference since I have so few. My kids think he's awesome, and I'm just trying to learn what I can about ratings, rankings etc. Perhaps this is old hat for the "baseball people" out there, but some of us are novices who have been dragged into this, not by choice, but by kids who refuse to pick a pastime that is less time consuming, expensive, competitive -- and emotional, apparently -- than baseball isSmile.

As for PG, my son has attended a few events just recently, including a showcase. All were extremely well run, and I have nothing but good things to say. As for his rating, it was higher than he expected or I would have given him based on casual observation, so no complaints on that front.

I honestly appreciate the thorough explanation PG provided to my original question -- it's all I asked for.
S SwampboyHSBBWeb Administrator
PGStaff is the first (and most frequent) person to say the rankings aren't perfect. That's why they adjust them as they get more information.

I was asking him questions about trends and methodology because a) the ratings are fascinating, and b) I've read enough of his posts to respect his competence and integrity and I actually want to hear his views.

Sure wasn't trying to add fuel to the fire or embarrass either PGStaff or any players.

I agree with Redbird that many of the best players probably care little about the rankings.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Over trhe years I've grown kind of ammune to complaints about the rankings. First of all, I've always hated ranking players. The truth is that this is one of those things where you know ahead of time that you will be wrong once in awhile.

I'm all for discussion, but don't always have the time to explain everything. I love hearing what other people think. Often, when we hear a players name, it causes us to dig deeper.

Swampboy,

I'll try to answer the questions you asked here.

quote:
Would it be fair to say that players who go to an early showcase and do well may get early rankings that are higher than what they end up with simply because they are the first players in the class you know about, but that as PG learns more about other players and it gets closer to graduation that everyone finds their level and the players who attend showcases late or not at all work their way into their proper slots?

I also notice that neither UVA's in-state 2011 commitments nor other players with elite D1 commitments (e.g., Evan Beal to South Carolina) are on the list and that no Northern Region first team all-district or all-region players are in this group. Do you look at these other indicators of possible merit at some point to decide who gets a closer look? How does that work?


I guess it would be fair to say, the earlier we see a player the more we know about that player. As we see new players, often the player we saw earlier moves down in the rankings. Not because we think less of the first player, but because the new player deserves to be ranked very high and everyone moves down a spot. So I think you've described it accurately. We will be seeing more new players right up until the draft and some always end up in the rankings.

Evan Beal is another player we have seen several times and he is just more proof that we are not perfect. I can't believe he is not ranked and that will change tomorrow, thanks for the reminder. These things happen sometimes when we are looking at thousands of players in our database. So often we get complaints that are rediculous, and sometimes we get complaints or suggestions that are justified. We actually do check each and every player that is brought up, be it a complaint or a suggestion. We know we are capable of making mistakes. These mistakes are almost always someone we have missed, more than someone we have ranked being undeserving. I wish everyone who thinks we have missed on a player would take the time to email us. It would not be ignored, but at the same time, we might not agree.

Things like all metro, all district, all conference, all region, etc, are not something we follow closely. That information just doesn't tell us enough. We've had players ranked in the top 10 in the country that weren't on any of those type lists as a junior (Gerrit Cole comes to mind). He pitched about 20 innings as a junior in high school and we ranked him #2 in the country.

So even though we make mistakes, people would be surprised if they knew how many people and how much work goes into the rankings. That's what bothers us the most when others who don't see these players make out lists and reports that are simply based on what we have seen and put out there.

I think everyone here is bringing up some good points and the players mentioned in this discussion are definitely legitimate. If they weren't I wouldn't bother to reply. I tell all our people... We can afford to be wrong at times, but we can never afford to be wrong on purpose!
B Baseballfan195810+ posts
Since PG doesnt look at all the talent equally?
I asked what I thought was a simple question, rephrased (if kids whoever they are, and for whatever reason don't get into the PG database) are they missing people. Obviously hit a sore spot, I am sorry. Townes and Beal are just an indicator.
I am not related to either.

quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Over trhe years I've grown kind of ammune to complaints about the rankings. First of all, I've always hated ranking players. The truth is that this is one of those things where you know ahead of time that you will be wrong once in awhile.

I'm all for discussion, but don't always have the time to explain everything. I love hearing what other people think. Often, when we hear a players name, it causes us to dig deeper.

Swampboy,

I'll try to answer the questions you asked here.

quote:
Would it be fair to say that players who go to an early showcase and do well may get early rankings that are higher than what they end up with simply because they are the first players in the class you know about, but that as PG learns more about other players and it gets closer to graduation that everyone finds their level and the players who attend showcases late or not at all work their way into their proper slots?

I also notice that neither UVA's in-state 2011 commitments nor other players with elite D1 commitments (e.g., Evan Beal to South Carolina) are on the list and that no Northern Region first team all-district or all-region players are in this group. Do you look at these other indicators of possible merit at some point to decide who gets a closer look? How does that work?


I guess it would be fair to say, the earlier we see a player the more we know about that player. As we see new players, often the player we saw earlier moves down in the rankings. Not because we think less of the first player, but because the new player deserves to be ranked very high and everyone moves down a spot. So I think you've described it accurately. We will be seeing more new players right up until the draft and some always end up in the rankings.

Evan Beal is another player we have seen several times and he is just more proof that we are not perfect. I can't believe he is not ranked and that will change tomorrow, thanks for the reminder. These things happen sometimes when we are looking at thousands of players in our database. So often we get complaints that are rediculous, and sometimes we get complaints or suggestions that are justified. We actually do check each and every player that is brought up, be it a complaint or a suggestion. We know we are capable of making mistakes. These mistakes are almost always someone we have missed, more than someone we have ranked being undeserving. I wish everyone who thinks we have missed on a player would take the time to email us. It would not be ignored, but at the same time, we might not agree.

Things like all metro, all district, all conference, all region, etc, are not something we follow closely. That information just doesn't tell us enough. We've had players ranked in the top 10 in the country that weren't on any of those type lists as a junior (Gerrit Cole comes to mind). He pitched about 20 innings as a junior in high school and we ranked him #2 in the country.

So even though we make mistakes, people would be surprised if they knew how many people and how much work goes into the rankings. That's what bothers us the most when others who don't see these players make out lists and reports that are simply based on what we have seen and put out there.

I think everyone here is bringing up some good points and the players mentioned in this discussion are definitely legitimate. If they weren't I wouldn't bother to reply. I tell all our people... We can afford to be wrong at times, but we can never afford to be wrong on purpose!
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
quote:
Since PG doesnt look at all the talent equally?
I asked what I thought was a simple question, rephrased (if kids whoever they are, and for whatever reason don't get into the PG database) are they missing people. Obviously hit a sore spot, I am sorry. Townes and Beal are just an indicator.
I am not related to either.


Baseballfan1958,

No sore spot here! I'm sure we are missing some. Hope we find them.

However, I'm not sure those players are any indicator of anything other than a possible mistake.

The two players mentioned are in fact in the PG database. We have seen both several times. They could be ranked higher so you could say the rankings are wrong, but we have many scout notes on both in their files in the PG database.

That said, I'm sure there are players that really are missing in the database. We hope to find those missing players before next June and rank them accordingly.

The problem is with saying "Since PG doesn't look at all the talent equally" is that I think it sends kind of the wrong message. Kind of makes it sound like the rankings are political or dishonest.

Now if someone were to say that PG "sees" some players more than others, that would be true. There is no person or group anywhere who "sees" every player an equal number of times in the right setting.

Anyway, if someone said, PG misses some players... They would also be correct. If we find out who that missing player is, we will check him out and look at him equal to all other players.
Last edited by PGStaff
D dblemup100+ posts
I have been reading this thread and all I have to say is, and I have ZERO affiliation to PG or the 2 players mentioned by name (maybe a better way to get PG's attention on a probable oversight, is to contact them directly, so to leave the names of these young men out of it)...geez folks the PG staff has said, several times, that these guys were overlooked...a mistake possibly...it happens...in these 2 cases both players have signed with bigtime schools. That is what really matters...PG made a mistake...we ALL make mistakes...let it go.
Last edited by dblemup
S SwampboyHSBBWeb Administrator
dblemup,

Two quibbles:

If PG's goal is to get the rankings right by the time of the draft, every list that comes out is basically a draft of an ongoing work and subject to revision as more info comes their way. Looking at the list as "based on information received and evaluated thru Sep 2010," I don't think we can say PG made mistakes regarding these young men yet. Let's see where they are next June.

I don't accept that we should leave the young men's names out of the discussion. Sounds high minded until you think about it and realize it doesn't make sense. If we're talking about rankings, then by definition, we're talking about names. And if we can't mention names, this thread shouldn't even exist. We've also established that no one mentioning these two players was an aggrieved parent or coach or had any connection to the players other than hoping a couple of local guys do well, just as a lot of us root for any NOVA player who goes on to bigger things. Now, if we were saying that player x is a scrub and shouldn't be on the list, I could see your point. But everyone here has said nice things about these guys. If we've gotten so sensitive that we can't even compliment someone, then we've gone too far down that road and need to come back.
D dblemup100+ posts
Swamp: You are entitled to say or do whatever you see fit. I was just offering an opinion.

Just as you and others, I want nothing but the best for the 2 players mentioned...they seem to be doing pretty darn good without us or PG...The ONLY reason I offered to NOT mention names, is the thread appeared to be headed down the "negative" road and wouldn't want a player caught up in negativity, no other reason. That and with all the players out there, it seems like PG is doing a more then fair job. When I saw the posted list, I too was surprised to see those names, and a few others, not there. I don't know the entire process, so chose not to publically ask why. just my way...never claimed it to be the only way.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Though I would have preferred someone had contacted us directly about the two players, I'm still glad they were both brought up.

It caused us to investigate our own files and we found both players had been under rated by us. I know some will think we are caving in based on what others have said, but that wouldn't be the truth. We simply want to get it right, no matter how that happens. If it makes us look bad, so be it! Better to look bad and be right, than look good and be wrong.

In this case, what others mentioned simply alerted us to dig deeper. Once we did, it became clear that we had made a mistake. We are in the process of adjusting the rankings. We found a few more mistakes as we looked closer and we found some more players that we are currently looking into. Most people don't understand that we actually adjust the rankings often, sometimes daily. That never ends.

So I am actually kind of glad that this has all happened, because it has been helpful.

If anyone ever feels a deserving player is not mentioned by us, please let us know. It does not have to be someone who has attended PG events. We have the ability to check out any player in the country and even see him if warranted.
staff@perfectgame.org
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
quote:
I've always hated ranking players.


I noticed that you seem to have limited numeric ranking to the top 500 these days, with other kids grouped in rough batches of 500 thereafter ("Top 1,000", "high follow" and "follow" rounding out roughly the top 2,000).

I can understand you getting weary of it, but I miss the old numeric rankings. There's a big difference between being # 501 and # 999, and I fear we're losing that info. Probably the old system gave an illusion of precision that was ultimately adjudged not to be merited, but if only for water cooler talk, I'll miss it.
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