Tournament Highs and Lows

gcimatt,

 

Interesting stories to be sure. Since you prefaced your stories saying the game was being played under OBR, I have to make a comment about bad Situation 1.

 

Understand that in MLB, there is only one scorer at a game because there is an official scorer who turns in a game report to the league and that’s what the stats are based on. In amateur ball however, because there isn’t an official scorer’s report as such or a central place where all the stats are kept, its common practice for each team to have a scorer, with the local rules determining the official scorer.

 

In “normal” games, the OSK will be the home team scorer, and usually in tournaments or playoff games an OSK will be assigned by the tournament committee or the governing power. But in any case, there is a little know or understood rule in OBR that sure looks like it got broken.

 

10.01 OFFICIAL SCORER (GENERAL RULES)

(b)(4) The official scorer shall not call the attention of any umpire or of any member of either team to the fact that a player is batting out of turn.

 

Yes, its really in there, and if you notice says “shall not”, not “should not”. The scorer in that game broke one of the sacred rules of scoring as soon as he stuck his nose into the game. I’m not saying s/he’s a bad person at all, but I am saying scorers aren’t players, coaches, or umpires and need to keep quiet during games about a player batting out of order. Now if the HC/Manager wants to have someone in the dugout keep score, that’s his business. But once the game begins, if the scorer isn’t in the dugout, s/he should keep his/her observations to themselves unless asked directly by the plate umpire.

 

The reason for keeping quiet about that is because it affects the game conduct. Unlike making a judgment about how to score some play that has absolutely no effect on the outcome of the game, this one can have a direct effect on the game and that’s the purview of the manger and players to keep track of, and make an appeal, not the scorer or even the umpires.

 

Rule 6.07 Comment: The umpire shall not direct the attention of any person to the presence in the batter’s box of an improper batter. This rule is designed to require constant vigilance by the players and managers of both teams.

 

This sure isn’t a life or death thing, but it is important and should be something coaches and players understand. The reason I noticed that is that I did the same thing many years ago when I 1^st stated scoring games. Luckily the guy behind the plate was an old timer who took the time to explain it to me, much to my embarrassment at the time, but it sure taught me a lesson, and I’ve never done anything like it since, although I have noticed improper batters several times. What I do is tell the HC/Manager about it after the game and let him deal with it.

Matt,

 

Sounds like quite an eventful tourney you had... All your situations reflect a crew with little if any mechanics training and spotty rules knowledge.

 

Good Scenario #1- As you stated, good to see they worked it out, they knew the rule and when questioned they got together and got it right.

 

Bad scenario #1- I see this as different than stats.....I'm reading this as YOUR scorekeeper brought your attention to the fact that you had an incorrect batter at the plate.. ..is that correct?.......if so, then you did exactly right.....request time, and replace the incorrect batter with the correct one...it is bad/sad that you had to tell him. This isn't one of the more difficult rules to understand. But the fact he asked you what to do in that case,lets us all know that they had no rules training...

 

Bad scenario #2- clear evidence of no mechanics training..knowing exactly where the  ball went over the fence in this case would let us know who should have been responsible for the call..we would need to know to determine that....regardless neither was in sync to handle this correctly...if it was indeed the BU call, chances are the HPU attention would be with his other responsibilities. Bad/non existent mechanics  

 

Bad Scenario #3- Again clear evidence that these were untrained umpires....this is BU call all the way...and NO appeal should have been granted....safe out is a judgment call... 

HPU should have known that he should not give an appeal on the play and keep his opinions to himself ...Never say anything to a player you wouldn't say to the coach .... maybe this will be the lesson he needed to study up on rules and mechanics....

 

As to you..........well you knew after scenario #1 that this was going to be one of those days......doesn't make it right, of course...but a glimpse into the rest of the day for sure....

 

After games ejections can be valid....

 

Why did this happen?......not saying this is the case at your tourney, but in most  tournaments umpiring is the largest expense that the tourney will have....and some, to maximize profits, will turn to untrained and non-certified umpires...

 

(which I will never understand, because nothing runs off teams from tourneys better than homer-ism or incompetent umpiring)

 

Appreciate your kind words for us here, best of luck in future tourneys.......

Matt: Note to self - take this tourney off your bucket list

 

Umpires assigned to 14U travel tournament games are certainly not at the level of quite a few on this board, so in the end it's a learning experience that you get to pay for. Quite a few "veteran" umps don't want or like these kinds of tournies - too many "know it all" coaches and parents, games last way too long, and the pay is below what they usually get. Not saying that's your perspective, but as long as you set your expectations going in, then you can just focus on the coaching and have your players focus on the playing (and your parents on the cheering of the team).... Hopefully you didn't "blame the umps" for the losses in your talk with the team... I'm sure a lot of veterans can agree that it's very easy to recognize the team with the coaches (and players) that aren't trying to (micro)manage the officiating aspect of the game too.

 

I never tell the team umpires "cost us a game."  In fact, when I talk to my team after games like this the discussion revolves around what we could have done differently, so that we weren't in a position to have a call "hurt" us.  I am not one of those coaches who treats baseball like life or death... I try to use the lessons baseball imparts to improve lives.  Things like learning how to compete, and what it takes (mentally) to come out on top of the competition; life's not always fair, and how you deal with the adversity often is what determines true success (not necessarily the trophy).

 

I don't like to be involved in the officiating aspect of the game when I'm coaching, but I completely get what you're saying.  More often than not, the only thing I say to umpires is "Thanks!" and "Good game, blue!"  I really try to let them call the game, while I coach the game, the kids play the game and our parents cheer our team.  Ours is kind of a unique team, we call it our "Baseball Family" and that's really how all 12 of our players and their parents approach our brand of baseball.  It has worked well for us... we're not always the top team in the leagues (or tourneys), but we're always in the top 5 or 6.

 

Thanks for sharing your wisdom and perspectives John!  I appreciate the words!

Situation 1 same game as above: top of 3rd inning, scorekeeper notices our batter hitting out of order - count at the time was 1-1.  Plate umpire called me (coach) to discuss the situation and said, "What do I do with this?"  I told him it was no big deal, and the correct batter could step in the box, inheriting the 1-1 count.  Of course, when the ump made this call the opposing coaches and fans went crazy because the batter should be out for batting out of order.  I was proud of the ump for sticking to his call!  What made it bad was that he didn't know what to do in this situation.  Had I not been reading this board, I would have said the batter should be out also.

He just needs to learn the rule. 

Situation 2 same game as above: runners on 2nd and 3rd, batter hits ball to opposite field (bounces beyond OF fence).  Field ump was facing home plate (why, I don't know) and never saw the ball go over the fence.  RF had his hand in the air (making the HR signal), when the field ump saw this he called ground-rule double.  Plate ump said he saw the ball go over the fence, but it is the field umps call.  I said, it was the call of whoever saw it and that he could make the call since the field ump was looking the other way.  Call remained ground rule double, and we lost by 1 run.  OUCH!

It probably is the BU's call on the ball over the fence, hard to tell without knowing more about that. However, even if it was and the PU knows what the BU did was wrong, he needs to get together. It's not a national secret. 

Situation 3: Field ump from game above was plate ump for elimination game.  Bases loaded, pick off move to first, field ump is between SS and 3B and calls the runner at first safe.  Appeal to plate ump, he calls runner at first safe.  Not a big deal until after the inning, when our catcher came back to the dugout and told us the plate ump said, "He was out at first, I just didn't want to over-rule the field ump 'cause he's been doing this longer than me."

It is the Bu's call, no appeal, PU needs to shut up. The BU should have been in B, not C. 

This statement alone tells me all I need to know about the umpire.  Never stay around for post game anything.  When the 3rd out is made in the final inning my partner and I quickly disappear.

Unfortunately many tournaments insist on the PU getting a pitching log signed for each team. I disagree with it but that is how much of travel ball works. 

Why would the BU be in "B" with the bases loaded?  I don't think that's correct

Absolutely B with bases loaded. Where are the likely plays? Any ball hit on the infield the ball is either going home, then to first. Where does the BU want to be, where he has a good look at the banger at first. The other likely play is the closest base to the fielder and then first. Either way, you want to be toward first, so your starting point is B. 

R1 only-B          R2,R3-C

R1,R2-C            R1,R3-B

R2 only-C          R1,R2,R3-B

R3 only-usually C but many go to B with two outs.

I wouldn't say "absolutely." I have used C in a very particular situation with a specific team that loved their catcher's cannon. I got burned in B the first two games with this guy. I figured I'd go to C because I'm not a tree and I know how to use the working area, and I'd have more time for that than trying to get an angle from B on a throw behind R3.

 

And as long as we're on the subject, some collegiate guys up here (with the blessing of the conferences and national coordinators) have started experimenting with B at all times with runners on.

According to the NFHS Umpire Manual (2 man mechanics/Page57)

"R1 at Third, R2 at Second, and R3 at First:  U1 is supposed to be in Position C"

 

I'm just stating what the book says.  In our association, we follow the NFHS mechanics book.  I guess it could be different in different manuals.  

       
       

There's your problem. Take your FED mechanics book and use it as toilet paper. They're useless.

That is what we use.  I just can't ignore it.  What do the other manuals state?  

Any time there is a potential steal of 2nd base, BU is in B.  All other times (with runners) he is in C.  In other words, the only time BU is in B is R1 only, or R1, R3.

I agree dash.  Others don't see it that way.  Apparently in some associations they can just line up where ever they want and the book be damned!

Wow, Football season must almost be over.

Roll Tide!!

My hand-me-down copy of the Collegiate Commissioners Association 2011 manual also has BU in C with the bases loaded.  

You are correct.  It hasn't changed since then.

I can see if you know a team, adjust your mechanics accordingly. There was a kid that had a cannon that would look at the pitcher and pick first. He would make you look like an idiot if you weren't paying attention. 

Most manuals do say C, but the clinics teach B. 

Roll Tide is correct.  RTR

The NCAA and Fed manuals say C. I checked with PBUC, they say C. Some conferences and many clinics say B. Clear now?

we will see this week.....Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrr Eagleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee