Transfer Observations and Questions

TPM quote from above:

"IMO, maybe wrong, I believe more transfers occur because the player really isn't happy with his situation. They think the grass is greener on the other side.  I also believe that many coaches have a hard time getting their players to buy in to their philosophy, they just aren't good at communicating that to the team, so they lose players because the player doesn't understand their is no I in team. That's just my perception."

There seems to be an invisible line that separates the focus on "team first" and "me first" here.......X  Is this where the transition occurs that we see so much in pro sports and at times college sports; in the summer between senior year of HS and freshman year of college?  Posters on this site excoriate parents and kids who dare to jockey/transfer from one HS to another due to lack of PT.  The message here is ALWAYS, "don't be a quitter, buy in to the coach's system, No "I" in team, you'll be sending the wrong message to your kid if you let them jump to another HS, let them grow and learn the lesson, challenge them, life isn't fair, etc. etc. etc."  

Yet suddenly one year later in college it's a no brainer to bolt because "John" (no longer "Johnny") is not getting the PT he thinks he deserves.  These are the same issues we discuss in HS, it's just 4-years later, isn't it?  I get the fact that now there's pro careers on the line and needed development for said pro aspirations, I get that.  So is THAT the reason for the "me first" transition?  But then, isn't that what the grumblers who ride the pine in HS were talking about?  But for them it was college aspirations as opposed to pro?  And they were told to basically suck it up, life ain't fair?

One of the players I reference anonymously in OP went from one elite P-5 to another elite P-5 via a JUCO in year #2.  He is obviously not a case of coaches misreading his abilities during the recruiting process, I doubt that many layers of recruiters make that same mistake.  He's in the right pond.  Maybe it was an issue of chemistry, or the kid's personality or attitude (highly doubt it) but it's clear to several sets of P-5 staffs that he's got the "stuff."  No idea what his "whys" are but I just can't help but feel that in this one case, if he had stuck around at school #1, he'd of contributed more as a sophomore and then Jr. Isn't that what Mid-Atlantic Dad's stats posted above suggest?  instead of hitting the EJECT button and taking the exit ramp for Rt. #4-2-4?

Is baseball chivalry dead in college?  Is sitting the bench in college as a freshman and then partially sophomore year, buying in to coach's philosophy, and the role he has given you, "waiting your turn," NOT an option?  I thought that was what "team" was all about?  Let's be honest most of these guys were kids who never missed a starting AB or inning in the field from 8yo thru 18yo.  That was something other kids had to deal with.  Now for the first time in their lives, they are not a starter, maybe even RS'd for freshman year, and it's so unacceptable that they transfer? 

Now if it is painfully apparent kid has zero shot of ever contributing and coaches tell him that, then I completely see the transfer option.  But if it's simply the lumps and bumps of life?  I just have a hard time calling a kid a sucker for sticking it out and hoping for a break.  But then the issues BackstopDad presents above kick in big time.  His post is is highly valid on this scenario.  You're a sophomore or junior busting your butt, not catching a break AND you're missing out on the phenomenal social life that makes college so much fun? That's a major problem.   

I'm not faulting any kid for navigating his path in college ball how he sees fit.  I'm just trying to understand where the line is regarding the importance of the team's overall success and a player's baseball aspirations and need for development.  

Humbly submitted.  

Good points.  I think this is such a complex issue.  Just like we all know adults that given the same circumstances one’s personality is this is the end of the world and another shrugs their shoulders and eh it’s no big deal.  For most this is the first time they have ever dealt with adversity in their lives. Some deal with it better than others. All deal with it differently.  

Son’s school situation is pretty unique however I would say just as many kids transfer or leave the game entirely for more reasons than baseball ones. 

Again, this kind of goes back to my earlier post.  Most kids don't expect to go into HS as a freshman and compete against juniors and seniors for the starting SS or #1 pitcher spot....but everyone seems to think that when they go to college as a freshman they are going to be the SS or Friday starter.  Why?  The guys there are older, more experienced, stronger and have seen 2 or 3 years of college level pitching.  What seems strange is that a kid would go to a D1 as a freshman....say, "wow, I'm not playing enough"....leave for a JUCO for a year, then go back to a D1 as a junior and think "hey, this is better, should have gone here in the first place".  Guess what, the situation isn't better, it's just that the kid is now the junior that he couldn't beat out for a spot at his original school.  Who knows if he'd be playing there if he had stayed.   A good friend's son did exactly this....started at an SEC as a freshman.....absolutely loved everything about the school but didn't play enough.  Left for a JUCO for a year then ended up at a very good D1 and was a starter his junior year before getting drafted.  Would he have started his junior year at the SEC school?  Who knows, but he did get drafted much higher than the kid who played the same position at his original SEC school his junior year...so maybe. 

BackstopDad32 posted:

Don’t underestimate the number of players that once they get to college decide they are done playing baseball even at top 50 schools.

 It’s been said all the time.  Lots of work and some of their friends are having a lot of fun doing college age things.  Takes lots more than physical ability. 

^^^^This

I think as a student athlete, and a parent providing guidance for the student athlete, it is important to analyze the situation closely.  As the one providing guidance, I would not tell Ryno to transfer unless there were circumstances that warranted it:

• Wasn't a good fit academically.
• He was so unhappy for whatever reason, he would be wasting his time remaining there from an academic, and an athletic standpoint.
• Coaches have communicated he is not in their plans, he would be better off transferring because he's never going to play, etc.

I've mentioned before that I think most players have gotten the shaft at some point, but saying things like, "it was politics", "kid's family donates a lot of money to the program", etc., has never flown with me.  When I have felt Ryno got the short end of the stick, I've told him to work harder, or investigate what a teacher or coach wants from him.  I tell him that, "they are the boss", and "you aren't always going to like your boss".  "Find what it takes to make the teacher or the coach happy!"  

If it was strictly a PT situation as a Freshman, I would tell him to work harder, get stronger, get faster, etc.  If it is a PT situation, and the coach told him that he was never going to fit in, I would tell him to transfer.

#1 Assistant Coach posted:

 

There seems to be an invisible line that separates the focus on "team first" and "me first" here.......X  Is this where the transition occurs that we see so much in pro sports and at times college sports; in the summer between senior year of HS and freshman year of college?  Posters on this site excoriate parents and kids who dare to jockey/transfer from one HS to another due to lack of PT.  The message here is ALWAYS, "don't be a quitter, buy in to the coach's system, No "I" in team, you'll be sending the wrong message to your kid if you let them jump to another HS, let them grow and learn the lesson, challenge them, life isn't fair, etc. etc. etc."  

...

Yet suddenly one year later in college it's a no brainer to bolt because "John" (no longer "Johnny") is not getting the PT he thinks he deserves.  These are the same issues we discuss in HS, it's just 4-years later, isn't it?  

...

Is baseball chivalry dead in college?  Is sitting the bench in college as a freshman and then partially sophomore year, buying in to coach's philosophy, and the role he has given you, "waiting your turn," NOT an option?  I thought that was what "team" was all about?  Let's be honest most of these guys were kids who never missed a starting AB or inning in the field from 8yo thru 18yo.  That was something other kids had to deal with.  Now for the first time in their lives, they are not a starter, maybe even RS'd for freshman year, and it's so unacceptable that they transfer? 

 

I think you raise an interesting point, but perhaps you answered your own question.  D1 athletes are the ones who never missed an inning or AB from 8yo to 18yo, so they were not the ones jockeying/transferring high schools to get playing time.  But once in college, things changed for the D1 stud and if they are sitting, their reaction is exactly the same as the HS kids 4 years earlier (transfer).  Perhaps the notion of a team first player works well for the kids who are playing, but not so much for the kids on the bench, no matter what the age.

#1 Assistant Coach posted:

TPM quote from above:

"IMO, maybe wrong, I believe more transfers occur because the player really isn't happy with his situation. They think the grass is greener on the other side.  I also believe that many coaches have a hard time getting their players to buy in to their philosophy, they just aren't good at communicating that to the team, so they lose players because the player doesn't understand their is no I in team. That's just my perception."

There seems to be an invisible line that separates the focus on "team first" and "me first" here.......X  Is this where the transition occurs that we see so much in pro sports and at times college sports; in the summer between senior year of HS and freshman year of college?  Posters on this site excoriate parents and kids who dare to jockey/transfer from one HS to another due to lack of PT.  The message here is ALWAYS, "don't be a quitter, buy in to the coach's system, No "I" in team, you'll be sending the wrong message to your kid if you let them jump to another HS, let them grow and learn the lesson, challenge them, life isn't fair, etc. etc. etc."  

Yet suddenly one year later in college it's a no brainer to bolt because "John" (no longer "Johnny") is not getting the PT he thinks he deserves.  These are the same issues we discuss in HS, it's just 4-years later, isn't it?  I get the fact that now there's pro careers on the line and needed development for said pro aspirations, I get that.  So is THAT the reason for the "me first" transition?  But then, isn't that what the grumblers who ride the pine in HS were talking about?  But for them it was college aspirations as opposed to pro?  And they were told to basically suck it up, life ain't fair?

One of the players I reference anonymously in OP went from one elite P-5 to another elite P-5 via a JUCO in year #2.  He is obviously not a case of coaches misreading his abilities during the recruiting process, I doubt that many layers of recruiters make that same mistake.  He's in the right pond.  Maybe it was an issue of chemistry, or the kid's personality or attitude (highly doubt it) but it's clear to several sets of P-5 staffs that he's got the "stuff."  No idea what his "whys" are but I just can't help but feel that in this one case, if he had stuck around at school #1, he'd of contributed more as a sophomore and then Jr. Isn't that what Mid-Atlantic Dad's stats posted above suggest?  instead of hitting the EJECT button and taking the exit ramp for Rt. #4-2-4?

Is baseball chivalry dead in college?  Is sitting the bench in college as a freshman and then partially sophomore year, buying in to coach's philosophy, and the role he has given you, "waiting your turn," NOT an option?  I thought that was what "team" was all about?  Let's be honest most of these guys were kids who never missed a starting AB or inning in the field from 8yo thru 18yo.  That was something other kids had to deal with.  Now for the first time in their lives, they are not a starter, maybe even RS'd for freshman year, and it's so unacceptable that they transfer? 

Now if it is painfully apparent kid has zero shot of ever contributing and coaches tell him that, then I completely see the transfer option.  But if it's simply the lumps and bumps of life?  I just have a hard time calling a kid a sucker for sticking it out and hoping for a break.  But then the issues BackstopDad presents above kick in big time.  His post is is highly valid on this scenario.  You're a sophomore or junior busting your butt, not catching a break AND you're missing out on the phenomenal social life that makes college so much fun? That's a major problem.   

I'm not faulting any kid for navigating his path in college ball how he sees fit.  I'm just trying to understand where the line is regarding the importance of the team's overall success and a player's baseball aspirations and need for development.  

Humbly submitted.  

I can’t compare high school to college ball. High school ball isn’t a job like college ball. Yes, many college prospects put in more effort than other players. As far as transferring in college the player has to do what’s best for him. While he’s on the team he has to put his best attitude and effort forward regardless of the circumstances. 

If a kid believes he’s a pro prospect he can’t hang around through junior year hoping he will start. He has to know he will start. Unless he’s hoping to get noticed at a JuCo his draft year after not playing much for two years he needs to transfer after freshman year and go 4-2-4 over three years.

Even in every day life I doubt anyone here would take one for the team (employer) and pass on a much better offer (new employer) with a perceived better future on the table. 

RJM posted:

#1 Assistant Coach posted:

TPM quote from above:

"IMO, maybe wrong, I believe more transfers occur because the player really isn't happy with his situation. They think the grass is greener on the other side.  I also believe that many coaches have a hard time getting their players to buy in to their philosophy, they just aren't good at communicating that to the team, so they lose players because the player doesn't understand their is no I in team. That's just my perception."

There seems to be an invisible line that separates the focus on "team first" and "me first" here.......X  Is this where the transition occurs that we see so much in pro sports and at times college sports; in the summer between senior year of HS and freshman year of college?  Posters on this site excoriate parents and kids who dare to jockey/transfer from one HS to another due to lack of PT.  The message here is ALWAYS, "don't be a quitter, buy in to the coach's system, No "I" in team, you'll be sending the wrong message to your kid if you let them jump to another HS, let them grow and learn the lesson, challenge them, life isn't fair, etc. etc. etc."  

Yet suddenly one year later in college it's a no brainer to bolt because "John" (no longer "Johnny") is not getting the PT he thinks he deserves.  These are the same issues we discuss in HS, it's just 4-years later, isn't it?  I get the fact that now there's pro careers on the line and needed development for said pro aspirations, I get that.  So is THAT the reason for the "me first" transition?  But then, isn't that what the grumblers who ride the pine in HS were talking about?  But for them it was college aspirations as opposed to pro?  And they were told to basically suck it up, life ain't fair?

One of the players I reference anonymously in OP went from one elite P-5 to another elite P-5 via a JUCO in year #2.  He is obviously not a case of coaches misreading his abilities during the recruiting process, I doubt that many layers of recruiters make that same mistake.  He's in the right pond.  Maybe it was an issue of chemistry, or the kid's personality or attitude (highly doubt it) but it's clear to several sets of P-5 staffs that he's got the "stuff."  No idea what his "whys" are but I just can't help but feel that in this one case, if he had stuck around at school #1, he'd of contributed more as a sophomore and then Jr. Isn't that what Mid-Atlantic Dad's stats posted above suggest?  instead of hitting the EJECT button and taking the exit ramp for Rt. #4-2-4?

Is baseball chivalry dead in college?  Is sitting the bench in college as a freshman and then partially sophomore year, buying in to coach's philosophy, and the role he has given you, "waiting your turn," NOT an option?  I thought that was what "team" was all about?  Let's be honest most of these guys were kids who never missed a starting AB or inning in the field from 8yo thru 18yo.  That was something other kids had to deal with.  Now for the first time in their lives, they are not a starter, maybe even RS'd for freshman year, and it's so unacceptable that they transfer? 

Now if it is painfully apparent kid has zero shot of ever contributing and coaches tell him that, then I completely see the transfer option.  But if it's simply the lumps and bumps of life?  I just have a hard time calling a kid a sucker for sticking it out and hoping for a break.  But then the issues BackstopDad presents above kick in big time.  His post is is highly valid on this scenario.  You're a sophomore or junior busting your butt, not catching a break AND you're missing out on the phenomenal social life that makes college so much fun? That's a major problem.   

I'm not faulting any kid for navigating his path in college ball how he sees fit.  I'm just trying to understand where the line is regarding the importance of the team's overall success and a player's baseball aspirations and need for development.  

Humbly submitted.  

I can’t compare high school to college ball. High school ball isn’t a job like college ball. Yes, many college prospects put in more effort than other players. As far as transferring in college the player has to do what’s best for him. While he’s on the team he has to put his best attitude and effort forward regardless of the circumstances. 

If a kid believes he’s a pro prospect he can’t hang around through junior year hoping he will start. He has to know he will start. Unless he’s hoping to get noticed at a JuCo his draft year after not playing much for two years he needs to transfer after freshman year and go 4-2-4 over three years.

Even in every day life I doubt anyone here would take one for the team (employer) and pass on a much better offer (new employer) with a perceived better future on the table. 

So it sounds like a lot of lines are crossed between HS ball and college ball.  That's why I'm asking.  Never played past 8th grade, and I've yet to watch someone close to me go through it first hand (college ball career). 

The game that was an "extra-curricular activity," for most in HS is now a "job." in college (this I've read a thousand times on this site, and this thread is making that crystal clear to me now). 

So it's acceptable then to look out for #1 in college, but not before in HS or travel.  Then OK, that makes sense.  I get it, clock's ticking and time to move on to greener fields.   No sarcasm here, honestly, that makes sense.  

So to boil this down to its most simple form, it's "self" over "team" in college, but in HS it's "team" over "self?"

"So it's acceptable then to look out for #1 in college, but not before in HS or travel.  Then OK, that makes sense.  I get it, clock's ticking and time to move on to greener fields.   No sarcasm here, honestly, that makes sense."

I believe this is true for high school, but not sure one is expected to "take one for the team" in travel ball.  I think the mantra is play for the best team that will give you lots of PT - and that you can afford (that last part I added).

Transferring HS's if it's only for athletics is comical to me....though growing up in a fairly small rural town where everyone knows each other and kids are together from 6 years old on up may have something to do with my thinking.  College is different....you're in college for baseball, but it's also funding (at least partially) your education.  No baseball means no scholarship money.   A big part of the 4-2-4 transfer is the fact that a JUCO is a lot less money than going straight to another D1 and sitting out a year while you pay the full cost of attendance while doing it.  You can go to a JUCO in most cases for 75% less, still play baseball and take classes that will transfer (hopefully) with you when you move on to another D1. 

#1 Assistant Coach posted:

RJM posted:

#1 Assistant Coach posted:

TPM quote from above:

"IMO, maybe wrong, I believe more transfers occur because the player really isn't happy with his situation. They think the grass is greener on the other side.  I also believe that many coaches have a hard time getting their players to buy in to their philosophy, they just aren't good at communicating that to the team, so they lose players because the player doesn't understand their is no I in team. That's just my perception."

There seems to be an invisible line that separates the focus on "team first" and "me first" here.......X  Is this where the transition occurs that we see so much in pro sports and at times college sports; in the summer between senior year of HS and freshman year of college?  Posters on this site excoriate parents and kids who dare to jockey/transfer from one HS to another due to lack of PT.  The message here is ALWAYS, "don't be a quitter, buy in to the coach's system, No "I" in team, you'll be sending the wrong message to your kid if you let them jump to another HS, let them grow and learn the lesson, challenge them, life isn't fair, etc. etc. etc."  

Yet suddenly one year later in college it's a no brainer to bolt because "John" (no longer "Johnny") is not getting the PT he thinks he deserves.  These are the same issues we discuss in HS, it's just 4-years later, isn't it?  I get the fact that now there's pro careers on the line and needed development for said pro aspirations, I get that.  So is THAT the reason for the "me first" transition?  But then, isn't that what the grumblers who ride the pine in HS were talking about?  But for them it was college aspirations as opposed to pro?  And they were told to basically suck it up, life ain't fair?

One of the players I reference anonymously in OP went from one elite P-5 to another elite P-5 via a JUCO in year #2.  He is obviously not a case of coaches misreading his abilities during the recruiting process, I doubt that many layers of recruiters make that same mistake.  He's in the right pond.  Maybe it was an issue of chemistry, or the kid's personality or attitude (highly doubt it) but it's clear to several sets of P-5 staffs that he's got the "stuff."  No idea what his "whys" are but I just can't help but feel that in this one case, if he had stuck around at school #1, he'd of contributed more as a sophomore and then Jr. Isn't that what Mid-Atlantic Dad's stats posted above suggest?  instead of hitting the EJECT button and taking the exit ramp for Rt. #4-2-4?

Is baseball chivalry dead in college?  Is sitting the bench in college as a freshman and then partially sophomore year, buying in to coach's philosophy, and the role he has given you, "waiting your turn," NOT an option?  I thought that was what "team" was all about?  Let's be honest most of these guys were kids who never missed a starting AB or inning in the field from 8yo thru 18yo.  That was something other kids had to deal with.  Now for the first time in their lives, they are not a starter, maybe even RS'd for freshman year, and it's so unacceptable that they transfer? 

Now if it is painfully apparent kid has zero shot of ever contributing and coaches tell him that, then I completely see the transfer option.  But if it's simply the lumps and bumps of life?  I just have a hard time calling a kid a sucker for sticking it out and hoping for a break.  But then the issues BackstopDad presents above kick in big time.  His post is is highly valid on this scenario.  You're a sophomore or junior busting your butt, not catching a break AND you're missing out on the phenomenal social life that makes college so much fun? That's a major problem.   

I'm not faulting any kid for navigating his path in college ball how he sees fit.  I'm just trying to understand where the line is regarding the importance of the team's overall success and a player's baseball aspirations and need for development.  

Humbly submitted.  

I can’t compare high school to college ball. High school ball isn’t a job like college ball. Yes, many college prospects put in more effort than other players. As far as transferring in college the player has to do what’s best for him. While he’s on the team he has to put his best attitude and effort forward regardless of the circumstances. 

If a kid believes he’s a pro prospect he can’t hang around through junior year hoping he will start. He has to know he will start. Unless he’s hoping to get noticed at a JuCo his draft year after not playing much for two years he needs to transfer after freshman year and go 4-2-4 over three years.

Even in every day life I doubt anyone here would take one for the team (employer) and pass on a much better offer (new employer) with a perceived better future on the table. 

 

So it's acceptable then to look out for #1 in college, but not before in HS or travel.  Then OK, that makes sense.  I get it, clock's ticking and time to move on to greener fields.   No sarcasm here, honestly, that makes sense.  

So to boil this down to its most simple form, it's "self" over "team" in college, but in HS it's "team" over "self?"

We had two HS wrestlers transfer just before their senior year from our mildly successful wrestling school to a hugely successful wrestling school nearby. A friend told me the improvement in coaching will help at least one of them win a state title.

Their former classmates don't think that's a good enough reason to move. We'll see if they get the college interest they were seeking, and if it makes up for spending your last year of HS with people you don't know.

I'm sure in their minds, they're just putting a new team over themselves.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Transferring HS's if it's only for athletics is comical to me....though growing up in a fairly small rural town where everyone knows each other and kids are together from 6 years old on up may have something to do with my thinking.  College is different....you're in college for baseball, but it's also funding (at least partially) your education.  No baseball means no scholarship money.   A big part of the 4-2-4 transfer is the fact that a JUCO is a lot less money than going straight to another D1 and sitting out a year while you pay the full cost of attendance while doing it.  You can go to a JUCO in most cases for 75% less, still play baseball and take classes that will transfer (hopefully) with you when you move on to another D1. 

Ahhhh....!  Yet another nugget.   I never thought of the $ part of the 4-2-4 route. If you’re getting average or less  PT as a soph in a 4-year but can get more PT at a JUCO for a fraction of the cost?  Big eye opener there.  

Btw, never heard of the “4-2-4” acronym before TPM used it on her college scholarship summaries thread.   Someone asked what it was, in a post, and I read the definition there.   

So much to be learned on this site.  

With all due respect, I think you might have set that invisible line between "team first" and "me first" at the wrong spot.  "Team first" begins when the "team" begins.  Before the team begins, the players sign up, try out, and are selected for the team.  Each year is a different "team," as players graduate and new players come on.  The different teams from year to year combine to make a "program."  Assuming baseball is such a priority for a kid that he's willing to switch schools for a better fit, then I don't think it matters if he's moving "up" to a more challenging program, or "down" to a program where he thinks he'll get to play more/earlier.  However, once the season begins (and, really, prep for the season), that is when the players need to put the team they chose to be on, first.        

I think coaches should have the perspective of "program first, team second, player third."  But just as coaches will do what's best for the coach (i.e., take a better job), players need to do what's best for them from year to year.  It's reasonable for a player to change schools/programs hoping for a better fit, or, put more clearly, for better personal development.  And I can't think of any reason why there would be a difference between college and high school in that logic.    

#1 Assistant Coach posted:

RJM posted:

#1 Assistant Coach posted:

TPM quote from above:

"IMO, maybe wrong, I believe more transfers occur because the player really isn't happy with his situation. They think the grass is greener on the other side.  I also believe that many coaches have a hard time getting their players to buy in to their philosophy, they just aren't good at communicating that to the team, so they lose players because the player doesn't understand their is no I in team. That's just my perception."

There seems to be an invisible line that separates the focus on "team first" and "me first" here.......X  Is this where the transition occurs that we see so much in pro sports and at times college sports; in the summer between senior year of HS and freshman year of college?  Posters on this site excoriate parents and kids who dare to jockey/transfer from one HS to another due to lack of PT.  The message here is ALWAYS, "don't be a quitter, buy in to the coach's system, No "I" in team, you'll be sending the wrong message to your kid if you let them jump to another HS, let them grow and learn the lesson, challenge them, life isn't fair, etc. etc. etc."  

Yet suddenly one year later in college it's a no brainer to bolt because "John" (no longer "Johnny") is not getting the PT he thinks he deserves.  These are the same issues we discuss in HS, it's just 4-years later, isn't it?  I get the fact that now there's pro careers on the line and needed development for said pro aspirations, I get that.  So is THAT the reason for the "me first" transition?  But then, isn't that what the grumblers who ride the pine in HS were talking about?  But for them it was college aspirations as opposed to pro?  And they were told to basically suck it up, life ain't fair?

One of the players I reference anonymously in OP went from one elite P-5 to another elite P-5 via a JUCO in year #2.  He is obviously not a case of coaches misreading his abilities during the recruiting process, I doubt that many layers of recruiters make that same mistake.  He's in the right pond.  Maybe it was an issue of chemistry, or the kid's personality or attitude (highly doubt it) but it's clear to several sets of P-5 staffs that he's got the "stuff."  No idea what his "whys" are but I just can't help but feel that in this one case, if he had stuck around at school #1, he'd of contributed more as a sophomore and then Jr. Isn't that what Mid-Atlantic Dad's stats posted above suggest?  instead of hitting the EJECT button and taking the exit ramp for Rt. #4-2-4?

Is baseball chivalry dead in college?  Is sitting the bench in college as a freshman and then partially sophomore year, buying in to coach's philosophy, and the role he has given you, "waiting your turn," NOT an option?  I thought that was what "team" was all about?  Let's be honest most of these guys were kids who never missed a starting AB or inning in the field from 8yo thru 18yo.  That was something other kids had to deal with.  Now for the first time in their lives, they are not a starter, maybe even RS'd for freshman year, and it's so unacceptable that they transfer? 

Now if it is painfully apparent kid has zero shot of ever contributing and coaches tell him that, then I completely see the transfer option.  But if it's simply the lumps and bumps of life?  I just have a hard time calling a kid a sucker for sticking it out and hoping for a break.  But then the issues BackstopDad presents above kick in big time.  His post is is highly valid on this scenario.  You're a sophomore or junior busting your butt, not catching a break AND you're missing out on the phenomenal social life that makes college so much fun? That's a major problem.   

I'm not faulting any kid for navigating his path in college ball how he sees fit.  I'm just trying to understand where the line is regarding the importance of the team's overall success and a player's baseball aspirations and need for development.  

Humbly submitted.  

I can’t compare high school to college ball. High school ball isn’t a job like college ball. Yes, many college prospects put in more effort than other players. As far as transferring in college the player has to do what’s best for him. While he’s on the team he has to put his best attitude and effort forward regardless of the circumstances. 

If a kid believes he’s a pro prospect he can’t hang around through junior year hoping he will start. He has to know he will start. Unless he’s hoping to get noticed at a JuCo his draft year after not playing much for two years he needs to transfer after freshman year and go 4-2-4 over three years.

Even in every day life I doubt anyone here would take one for the team (employer) and pass on a much better offer (new employer) with a perceived better future on the table. 

So it sounds like a lot of lines are crossed between HS ball and college ball.  That's why I'm asking.  Never played past 8th grade, and I've yet to watch someone close to me go through it first hand (college ball career). 

The game that was an "extra-curricular activity," for most in HS is now a "job." in college (this I've read a thousand times on this site, and this thread is making that crystal clear to me now). 

So it's acceptable then to look out for #1 in college, but not before in HS or travel.  Then OK, that makes sense.  I get it, clock's ticking and time to move on to greener fields.   No sarcasm here, honestly, that makes sense.  

So to boil this down to its most simple form, it's "self" over "team" in college, but in HS it's "team" over "self?"

Career wise everything in the big picture is about self over team. Would you transfer colleges if you weren’t satisfied with the education? If you were offered a significant increase in pay and responsibilities would you stay with your old company who isn’t going to provide these things because they say they need you? Why wouldn’t a college baseball player hoping to turn pro seek a better baseball environment? 

And no, I don’t consider a high school sport a job no matter how much time my son put into developing into a college prospect and developing to be the best he could be in another sport.

#1 Assistant Coach posted:

RJM posted:

#1 Assistant Coach posted:

TPM quote from above:

"IMO, maybe wrong, I believe more transfers occur because the player really isn't happy with his situation. They think the grass is greener on the other side.  I also believe that many coaches have a hard time getting their players to buy in to their philosophy, they just aren't good at communicating that to the team, so they lose players because the player doesn't understand their is no I in team. That's just my perception."

There seems to be an invisible line that separates the focus on "team first" and "me first" here.......X  Is this where the transition occurs that we see so much in pro sports and at times college sports; in the summer between senior year of HS and freshman year of college?  Posters on this site excoriate parents and kids who dare to jockey/transfer from one HS to another due to lack of PT.  The message here is ALWAYS, "don't be a quitter, buy in to the coach's system, No "I" in team, you'll be sending the wrong message to your kid if you let them jump to another HS, let them grow and learn the lesson, challenge them, life isn't fair, etc. etc. etc."  

Yet suddenly one year later in college it's a no brainer to bolt because "John" (no longer "Johnny") is not getting the PT he thinks he deserves.  These are the same issues we discuss in HS, it's just 4-years later, isn't it?  I get the fact that now there's pro careers on the line and needed development for said pro aspirations, I get that.  So is THAT the reason for the "me first" transition?  But then, isn't that what the grumblers who ride the pine in HS were talking about?  But for them it was college aspirations as opposed to pro?  And they were told to basically suck it up, life ain't fair?

One of the players I reference anonymously in OP went from one elite P-5 to another elite P-5 via a JUCO in year #2.  He is obviously not a case of coaches misreading his abilities during the recruiting process, I doubt that many layers of recruiters make that same mistake.  He's in the right pond.  Maybe it was an issue of chemistry, or the kid's personality or attitude (highly doubt it) but it's clear to several sets of P-5 staffs that he's got the "stuff."  No idea what his "whys" are but I just can't help but feel that in this one case, if he had stuck around at school #1, he'd of contributed more as a sophomore and then Jr. Isn't that what Mid-Atlantic Dad's stats posted above suggest?  instead of hitting the EJECT button and taking the exit ramp for Rt. #4-2-4?

Is baseball chivalry dead in college?  Is sitting the bench in college as a freshman and then partially sophomore year, buying in to coach's philosophy, and the role he has given you, "waiting your turn," NOT an option?  I thought that was what "team" was all about?  Let's be honest most of these guys were kids who never missed a starting AB or inning in the field from 8yo thru 18yo.  That was something other kids had to deal with.  Now for the first time in their lives, they are not a starter, maybe even RS'd for freshman year, and it's so unacceptable that they transfer? 

Now if it is painfully apparent kid has zero shot of ever contributing and coaches tell him that, then I completely see the transfer option.  But if it's simply the lumps and bumps of life?  I just have a hard time calling a kid a sucker for sticking it out and hoping for a break.  But then the issues BackstopDad presents above kick in big time.  His post is is highly valid on this scenario.  You're a sophomore or junior busting your butt, not catching a break AND you're missing out on the phenomenal social life that makes college so much fun? That's a major problem.   

I'm not faulting any kid for navigating his path in college ball how he sees fit.  I'm just trying to understand where the line is regarding the importance of the team's overall success and a player's baseball aspirations and need for development.  

Humbly submitted.  

I can’t compare high school to college ball. High school ball isn’t a job like college ball. Yes, many college prospects put in more effort than other players. As far as transferring in college the player has to do what’s best for him. While he’s on the team he has to put his best attitude and effort forward regardless of the circumstances. 

If a kid believes he’s a pro prospect he can’t hang around through junior year hoping he will start. He has to know he will start. Unless he’s hoping to get noticed at a JuCo his draft year after not playing much for two years he needs to transfer after freshman year and go 4-2-4 over three years.

Even in every day life I doubt anyone here would take one for the team (employer) and pass on a much better offer (new employer) with a perceived better future on the table. 

So it sounds like a lot of lines are crossed between HS ball and college ball.  That's why I'm asking.  Never played past 8th grade, and I've yet to watch someone close to me go through it first hand (college ball career). 

The game that was an "extra-curricular activity," for most in HS is now a "job." in college (this I've read a thousand times on this site, and this thread is making that crystal clear to me now). 

So it's acceptable then to look out for #1 in college, but not before in HS or travel.  Then OK, that makes sense.  I get it, clock's ticking and time to move on to greener fields.   No sarcasm here, honestly, that makes sense.  

So to boil this down to its most simple form, it's "self" over "team" in college, but in HS it's "team" over "self?"

#1 Asst, I don't see it like that at all.  I think that college ball is still very much "team".  I think that all of the circumstances immediately around college ball as compared to HS ball are quite different and those circumstances make it perhaps "more OK" or even, in some instances, more advisable for a college player to transfer under certain circumstances.

I don't think this is a topic that can be "boiled down" to such a simple deduction.

 I could go into lengthy detail about the differences, but to try to simplify somewhat... (I know, after I just told you you can't simplify this)...

Would you consider a personal trainer, private lessons and strength and conditioning for a T-ball player?  Would you consider the same for an aspiring young HS player who shows potential to play at the next level and who's body has matured enough to benefit from the strength training?  Both might be great team players but different courses of action apply to people at different stages of the game.

Interesting how baseball is at the top of the JuCo list and the bottom of the 4-Year list.

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/defa...s_FINAL_20170627.pdf

I would venture to say that many D1 that transfer out realize its not for them, while for Juco transfers into D1 some are 4-2-4 transfers who started out in D1!

Of course there are many JUCO who find their way onto a D1 or D2 roster who did not start out on a D1 roster!

Did you all get that ?

These transfers only make it harder for fresh to break into college ball. But if you ready the kid to understand this and accept it as part of college ball he/she will become more successful.  

I've always taught my son since he was 5 to be patient and wait for his turn. To be ready when his number is called.  Staying motivated and working hard for opportunities is key. 

-What is a good team player?

-Some transfers occur because the HC coach didn't know or appreciate what he had sitting on the bench and the really good players believe in themselves when others don't.

My son was a 4-2-4 and transferred when he was told he would be a part time catcher against left handed pitching only, would only be a 250 hitter and strike out too much.    IMHO Coach messed up his own team but helped inspire my son to look for the next best opportunity.  His friends on the team understood and encouraged him.  He even lived in the home of a former teammate while he went to a JC!    A good teammate wants to see/help his friends achieve the highest level possible, even if its on another team.

2018's RC for the team he signed NLI with said this.  We will never put the team before you as long as you do not put yourself before the team.

The vast majority of transfers have nothing to do with a player having a ME only attitude. They are simply a part of the game at this level. And really we are being naïve and disingenuous to suggest that every player doesn't have a ME in them. Every coach does as well. If you don't take care of the ME you can't expect ME to be a team player. Every team is made up of a bunch of ME's. The key is bringing all those ME's into a WE.

Players are there because they have been given an opportunity that they have earned. Sometimes that works out. Sometimes that doesn't work out. Sometimes it simply was not a good fit. It could be academic, make up of the player, not a good fit for the program, etc etc. Sometimes coaches make the call and tell the player verbally and or non verbally they need to move on. Sometimes players realize they will have a better opportunity to actually play if they move on.

Is a coach being a ME Coach for telling a kid they need to move on? Is he being a ME Coach for recruiting over another player? Is he being a Team Coach in those instances? How is that any different than a player deciding it is in his best interest to move on? So the Coach can make decisions but the player can't? Come on this isn't about kids being ME kids for transferring. It's about a clock that's ticking. You have worked your entire baseball life for this opportunity. You believe you can play and want that opportunity. You go somewhere where you feel you will get that opportunity.

Coaches at the college level have a very tough job. Especially at the D1 level with the 35 roster limits. Who is going to get drafted? Who will sign? Who do we need to sign if drafted? Who didn't get drafted that we thought would get drafted? Which signees got drafted? Which one's will likely sign? How many academic casualties will we have? How many guys are out due to injuries? Disciplinary issues? Guys simply leave school and decide they don't want anymore? On and on it goes. And we can only have 35 when it's all said and done. And we wonder why there are transfers? Really? How many would you start the fall with? And your trying to bring in the absolute best players you can bring in. Could it be that some really good players end up in a really bad situation? Should they stay and wait it out? Who's coming in next year? The clock is ticking.

All you can do is make the best decision for YOU that you can make. Grown people do that all the time when they choose a mate. And how does that work out many times? What happened? Life happened. You make the best decision you can make with the information you have and make the best of it. And if it all falls to pieces you pull it back together and fight on. It doesn't mean you messed up and did something wrong. You just experienced what we call life. It's not the end of the world. Many times its just part of the process and it is what you make of it. Many do quite well.   

so a lot of long responses,   but as someone that watches a fair amount of college baseball   6"2+ and 92 mph is often not what I see.   especially out of the bullpen.   That's not the Friday starter I get that.   But I watched plenty of SEC, ACC and Big 12 games  and saw lots of kids throwing  high 80s.    I guess at that point its can you pitch,  locate pitches etc.    

my other question is as a freshman  if your not getting playing time right away its time to look around?    

gunner34 posted:

my other question is as a freshman  if your not getting playing time right away its time to look around?    

No, not necessarily.

Does he like the team?  The coaches?  His school and classes?

What years are the guys playing his position?  Who is coming in next year and what position do they play?  (Check the PG website, if you don't know).

Do other freshmen get playing time?

What are the coaches telling him?

Injuries (and 'other stuff') happen.  Be ready to shine. 

Son's college team lost the starting MIF this year due to draft and other stuff.  Another MIF didn't play his senior year due to injury.  The player who transferred to a Juco, lost an opportunity at his former D1 to shine. He just needed to wait, which many players are not willing to do.

Great post. Not every "He didn't get playing time as a freshman" situation is the same.

keewart posted:

gunner34 posted:

my other question is as a freshman  if your not getting playing time right away its time to look around?    

 

I've said this before.....this seems to be the mentality of a lot of players (and parents).  I guess I would ask why the freshman "expected" significant playing time as a freshman?

1) RC told him he would get to play?   ......well, he sold the kid on the program, and did he say "would play" or "would get an opportunity to play"....two different things

2) Is the kid as good or better than the kids who have already been there 2,3 or 4 years?  If not...why would a frosh get PT over them?

3) Did he have a great fall his freshman year?  Hit the ball well, pitched well, etc?  Unfortunately that fall was his only "real" chance to earn significant PT as a freshman.  Once the Holidays are over, the team is concentrating on getting ready for the first game that's just a month away.  There's a lot to do...and putting different guys into different positions likely isn't one of the things that's going to happen much.

4) Did he make the most of any opportunities he got his freshman year?  Even if it's a late inning AB, it's a game situation and the coaches are looking for performance.  If a freshman got 8 AB's and struck out 6 times, that's what the coaches see. 

5) Do people (other than the kid and parents) see/feel that the kid deserved more PT?  My son's team had a parent who came to every game complaining that his kid wasn't playing....so much that it got to the point that other parents would purposely stay away from him at all costs.  The other parents could see his kid wasn't cutting it....and their sons were telling them that others were performing better...in games and in practice.  

6)....and last.....did the kid show up his freshman year in HS and expect to get significant PT over the sophomores, juniors and seniors?   Very likely the answer is NO!   I just don't understand why the mentality of stepping in as a freshman in college is different....the players are all bigger, stronger and older.