Travel - Rec - Future Success

Great post!

Too many times people simply go by the experience with Travel vs Rec in THEIR area, and don't realize it is different EVERYWHERE.

I think "Travel Ball" is also a generic term that tends to be understood differently, by different people again, based on their personal experiences.

I coach a "travel" 12U team. We are a registered USSSA Team. The vast majority of our tournaments / games are played within a 30 minute radius of our area. We have gone as far as 5 hours away (Myrtle Beach) for a NIT, but honestly it was more of a 'baseball vacation' since we were able to snag nice ocean front rooms for $50 a night, and since it COLD here in December, it was nice to experience weather in the 50's...not to mention the kids, parents and siblings had a blast hanging out before and after games.

Our motivation for Travel Ball is pretty simple. In our area there are ALOT of recreational leagues available. Too many in my opinion. It truly "Thins the talent pool" at the rec level. To the point that our LL regular season and playoffs is more like "sandlot baseball" was when I was a kid.

The coaching can also be an issue. I salute any volunteer who give his/her time freely to help the kids play ball. The issue is that many of these volunteers, again in MY area, don't have much knowledge on how to TEACH / COACH the game.

Personally at the 12U / 13U level, I believe as Coach, coaching a "travel" team, my goal is to get my players ready to play real game (60/90) and try to get them ready to play HS Baseball.

I'm sure other teams / coaches are motivated by different things, but I can only speak for what my motivation is.

Again I think, as you stated, it's ALL RELATIVE.

A 10-12U stud means nothing until the big field looms. And then you must of course factor in early and late maturity for players.

You mean all those trophies my kid earned at 10U will not impress his HS coach? Kidding...

You make some good points. Just keep in mind that in some communities rec ball is just not an option. The area we play in has terrible facilities, no support from city rec departments, no field maintenance, tall grass and holes in the outfield, raw sewage flowing from failed septic systems running between the fields, rotten light posts falling on the fields, and frequent power outages in night games. Its scary and unsafe.

And how about special ground rules due the poor facilities? A wild pitch is an automatic single base advance for a runner because the backstops have so many holes in the fence. Catchers in the rec league are getting conditioned to not even chase that passed ball. How is that helping with learning the game?

So, our only option is travel ball, which gives us the option to play at first class facilities, like East Cobb in Hotlanta or Caswell in Knoxville.

Expectations and goals are to develop the youth athlete and prepare him for prep baseball. Nothing more...

quote:

Expectations and goals are to develop the youth athlete and prepare him for prep baseball.

I wish I had a dime for each time I heard that expression or something akin. Prepare them for HS ball. Prepare them for the next level. Etc.

It is the player who takes himself up the ladder, not the coach and not the program. The best a player can hope for from his coach is that the coach will not screw him up. And the best he can hope for from his team is to get the opportunity to learn. There is not such thing as teaching, just learning.

Play multiple sports and have fun. Forget about travel ball until he is age 13. Play for your league all-star team and stay home and save your $$ and the insanity of traveling all over the place.

Take your extra $$ and get good coaching instead.

Transition to the 60/90' diamond in the 13-14U time frame. Get some travel ball experience if it works for you. Work it in around your league play. Good coaching is more important IMO.

Once puberty hits then the game changes depending on where the player ends up after puberty. The best 14U pitcher (travel ball) I saw is now a below average varsity pitcher......because he is is on the wrong side of the gene pool tracks.

While I agree with the opening post, I am somewhat confused about the change to the "big field" (60-90).

In our area kids go from 60 foot bases at age 9-10 to 70 at 11-12 and then 80 at 13-14 for rec league and travel is the same except that at 14 they move to regulaton 90 feet. I have watched my kid along with others and have watched as one kid surpasses another in ability and strength or height and weight but the similarities are generally the same- you can pick out kids at the 9-12 age that will be good later on at the 60-90 regulation field. So far i have been generally good at this.

When they get to the 80 foot bases you can pretty much tell who is going to make the hs team the next year or two- there are generally no surprizes whatsoever.

Rec ball has its place but if you want to refine the diamond in the rough inate talent in a player- good luck with that. Rec ball, even with good coaching doesn't do much for refining talent. The opposition is generally too weak, too slow, too unmotivated, too self indulged to ever play at the level needed to refine talent.

Rec ball in my opinion causes good players to stagnate and stay "stiff" because they never have to get their game on!

There are two types of studs in baseball. the first is the community rec ball stud who doesn't play travel ball because they are too consumed with blowing away poor talent on the rec level that they seldom even have to bend over to field a ball. Then there is the travel team stud who has to work his a** off and compete at levels that often require super-hero clutch plays and a good strong quality built body that is constantly getting banged up and bruised.

What is funny is when the rec ball stud runs into the travel team stud- here is how it goes-

Rec ball stud takes the mound and begins to serve up perfect velocity meatballs to the opposition who just clobbers the **** out of it! Rec ball kid exits game after 1/3 of an inning pitched because arm hurts- not used to throwing that much in one inning! Then the travel team stud comes up to pitch and throws it so hard all the kids and parents on the other team think he must be throwing 100mph and that the only reason their junior got smoked is because junior faced the next major league future star!

Last year my kid played rec ball along with travel because he wanted more batting practice and rec ball pitchers served them up quite deliciously! Didn't let him pitch a whole lot though on that team because it wasn't much of a challenge and that might be a bad thing- too much confidence heading into travel ball on the weekends.

Here is my scenario when these two kids meet up --- but on the regulation diamond. I never used the phrase, "big diamond" since it is the norm and all others are small diamonds. But I digress.

Much depends on the size and strength of these kids, no matter where they played. A typical scenario has a man child who used to wrist flick home runs with feather weight bats and blow 68mph fast balls by mystified kids now unable to compete on the full sized diamond. His batting technique sucks and was never corrected. His super fast ball from 46' is now just batting practice at 60'6". He is still 5'7" and 165# and matured. His father is 5'8" tall and his mother is 5'6" tall. He is in the twilight of a mediocre career having only average innate ability and poor refined skills. He, his parents, and most of his coaches had the philosophy of, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Unfortunately, it was badly broken but the wheels just haven't fallen off until now. He is becoming frustrated as the kids he dominated in the past race by him.

Then there is another kid moving up. He too is 5'7" but weighs only 98#. Voice is still high pitched, has no mustache, scant ankle hair, and is in early puberty. He has had to work hard to earn a playing slot. He is above average in foot speed and has a lively arm. He has no difficulty with the adult bat with a minus 3 drop. He is confident but not cocky. While not perfect, he is basicly sound in skill development. His father is 6'3" tall and mother is 5'10" tall. He thrives on competition.

Now it matters not what these kids did on the small diamond nor whether they played rec or travel, nor how many plastic trophies are gathering dust at home, nor that either was voted MVP on their last team. It matters not also how good a coach they had. Both had the opportunity to play. They learned from their team mates and their opposition.

Every year coaches are faced with decisions about taking kids like these. Some can see the diamond in the rough while others see two lumps of coal. Some are fooled by the glitz of refined for age skills while others see the innate ability at the time the player walks onto the field. Many coaches look but few see.

I believe that like the innate ability of a player, coaches either have or do not have the ability to recognize talent. Some HS coaches get fooled for a year and then it is over for the bubble boys.

I know that travel parents have this narrow focus of reality and believe that their pig's ear can be turned into a silk purse. That camps, pitching coaches, batting instruction, and playing a gazillion games per season will magicly turn their son into a college prospect down the road. Sadly, it just isn't so. We are all products of genetics and in baseball the player that you will become was determined at conception.

The lesson to be learned is that you should play and have fun for as long as you can without expectations. You should know that talent cannot be bought. The game will tell you when it is time to get off of the train as others remain. If you played the game as it is intended to be played and did your best, you were a success. Be sad for the moment that it is over but then move on. Another train is coming down the track and it may be yours.

D, what is your point? Are you building a case against travel ball using sterotypes and generalizations? Not trying to be a ugly, just trying to understand what point you are making.

Are you trying to suggest that travel ball play as a youth has no guarantees? If so, well duh... Any responsible parent should recognize this.
Are you saying to enjoy "the climb"? If so, thanks Miley, I agree.

However, you seem to disagree with setting goals. That's where I think you are wrong. Regardless of ability or expectations, there is nothing wrong with setting and then working to achieve a goal. BTW, that's not just a baseball statement, it plays a part in life too. Baseball can be a good way to learn how to set and work towards goals. A good coach can instill that value in a youth. It does not happen automagically.

I'm afraid some of your generalizations may be missing some things, especially if you only focus on the kid that has the 6'3" dad.

I think that we're all making generalizations based on what part of the country we're in and furthermore our specific geography within that part of the country. This subject is going to differ every 20 miles based on the size of the school, the saturation of travel teams in that locale, so on and so on.

In my special spot in this great state, my son will be afforded a better than possible opportunity to play varsity ball his freshman year. This is in large part due to several factors. First being that we are in a very small school district. Second, baseball is not king in our community, so therefore rec ball is the game of choice. Lastly, my son has played a high level of travel ball and been fortunate enough to do so with better than average coaches who pushed his development and knowledge of the game. Literally, go 10 miles south or east and this scenario changes.

All of this doesn't amount to a hill of beans if he doesn't get seen at some point. Again, this comes down to your locale and what drives the scouts (MLB & college)to come out and watch the kids play. From what little I know, this generally doesn't take place in this state at high school games. That means we're back to travel ball, showcases, etc.

Conclusion: If the state you live in is chock full of talent, travel ball is going to give you more bang for the buck in development and opportunity. But let's not forget that it's not an automatic ticket and it's still based on what the kid does with what he's been given.

It was my intention to respond to Gingerbreadman's post just before mine. Not argue nor disagree but, rather, just respond.

My point is simple. It is the player and not the program that determines future success at any level of the game. All that a program, any program, can do is refine skills and give the player an opportunity to learn and to play.

Prior to hitting the full sized diamond it matters not whether it is travel or rec. that is chosen so long as the player is not screwed up by the coaches and so long as the kid is given playing time. Since skills are learned primarily in practices and not games it matters not an iota whether the season is 20 games or more. Anything more than 50 games per season is overkill.

Personally, I have coached both and there is a place for each. There are plusses and minuses to both. Enjoy the time you have in the game while it is there. If you are graced with the ability to succeed on the full sized diamond, then good for you. 75% of kids are not.

Daque,
In your original post, you included college and the MLB along with HS. Very few, if any, young men are going to make it to those higher ranks if not exposed to a higher level of talent and competition. This may not have been the case 15 years ago, but just as other sports have gotten more competitive, so has baseball.

One cannot take the recreational path only and plan to play college ball. There will be exeptions to this rule, as great atheletes will always rise to the top.

Catcherz Dad makes the observation that you will not go on in the game if you are not exposed to better players. I agree with the premise but note that unless a player is playing HS ball or an equivalent thereof he has slipped off of the ladder to success. It is a matter of timing when this becomes important to play with and against the best you can find. The small diamond is not important no matter what the level of perceived talent may be. Show me you can compete well on the full sized diamoond before all of this concern kicks in for travel, pitching ccoaches,etc.

Fanof game observes that you should not count out younger players. Nor should you count them in by judging them before 16.

We are not that far apart. Really condensed is that travel ball before the full sized diamond is not important.

In my mind select ball play at ages under 14 serves one purpose----it gives Mommy and Daddy something to brag about

quote:

It was my intention to respond to Gingerbreadman's post just before mine. Not argue nor disagree but, rather, just respond.

My point is simple. It is the player and not the program that determines future success at any level of the game. All that a program, any program, can do is refine skills and give the player an opportunity to learn and to play.

Prior to hitting the full sized diamond it matters not whether it is travel or rec. that is chosen so long as the player is not screwed up by the coaches and so long as the kid is given playing time. Since skills are learned primarily in practices and not games it matters not an iota whether the season is 20 games or more. Anything more than 50 games per season is overkill.

Personally, I have coached both and there is a place for each. There are plusses and minuses to both. Enjoy the time you have in the game while it is there. If you are graced with the ability to succeed on the full sized diamond, then good for you. 75% of kids are not.

I would disagree with you on whether it matters or not if you play travel ball or rec ball before hitting the big diamond at around 14. My son (age 13)has played for various rec ball teams and different travel teams the past four years.

Playing rec ball has not really taught him much other than to accept that sometimes teamates really suck bad and you need to pat them on their back even if they just don't have much talent but have a lot of guts to go out there and try! Rec ball is like "patience development" and not much "talent development". To watch kid after kid drop balls thrown to first or pitches down the gut that can't be handled by the frail catcher does nothing other than teach you to have a whole lot of patience.

Take travel play on the other hand. Immediately it starts bringing out your talent and puts the pressure on to compete and repeat over and over again until you become a battle hardened mentally and physically tough player ready for any situation. If taught at an early age all the better! a lot of the greatest musicians of all time are great because they started at an early age.

I still don't quite get the whole move to the big diamond thing. I mean we could endlessly bring up story after story about how little Johnny stud pitcher at age 12 pertered off into oblivian by the time HS ball came around- there are a jillion of those stories. But, I believe that mostly it is the minority part of them. By the time kids start getting at age 12 or so, you can do pretty good with noticing player development and make semi-accurate predictions for hs ball and perhaps beyond.

The things I have watched my son learn playing travel ball against highly competetive teams in a competetive travel league brought him up to the next level- the level way above had he just played community rec ball. Now as I watch my son field hot grounders coming 90 mph at him and watching him stay in there and keep his head down- you just aint gonna get there in rec ball no matter how much innate talent you were born with!

Son has already moved up to the big diamond now for almost a whole year and he looks like a natural out there, but, he really looks no different than last year or the year before besides him getting bigger and stronger. He has always looked like he was on the right size field for his talent, and thanks to travel ball, he feels totally comfortable on the "big diamond", knows how hard he has to run, how hard he has to throw across the diamond for outs, how pitches break different from the greater distance, and knows how hard he must hit the ball to get a base hit- and all thanks to travel ball for making it possible.

Had he just played rec ball the past 4 years I think he would just be another mediocre rec ball stud who really coudn't muster up for the real talent once it came along in hs.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Also, don't know if it is just a weird stat or what but pretty much every kid around my area who went on to play post HS started playing travel ball at an early age.

It is only natural that the better players would be attracted to the better competition. Thus, those destined to play HS ball would be more comfortable with travel ball. Travel ball allows kisd to develop skills sooner than they would have in rec ball. How much they develop depends on innate abiity.

You speak from your experiences which is natural enough. In your area rec. ball is weak. Perhaps because the cream has been skimmed off of the top by travel. Academic.

What needs to be recognized is what any coach can do for any kid. Develop skills. Provide opportunities to learn. Don't over ccoach. Instill a passion for the game. The good ones will alsos help the player develop the mental part of the game which for the most part is sorely ignored in youth baseball.

My belief is that there are some excellent coaches at the rec level and some poor ones at the travel level. Some teams practice enough but most do not.

And so from a player development perspective, which translates to skill development, what is a good fit for one player is not for another.

But if a player shows promise on the full sized diamond, he is one of the 25% who make it that far. From that point forward it is no longer play but serious work for those with a passion for the game and the work ethic to complement their innate ability. At this time travel makes a lot of sense with a team that practices and a coach who knows how to inspire the team. No daddyball teams need apply.

We disagree about the importance of travel on the small diamond and that is OK. You have had a positive experience and that is fortunate. But in general, I stick by my observations. If your son is one of the 25% destined to play on the full sized diamond then travel may well instill the love for the game and the drive to be the best he can. But for 75% of youth players rec. ball will have the same outcome of happiness. It is what it says it is, recreational.

There will be players in the 25% group that get there from rec. ball. In one year they will be at a par with their travel cousins. And by 14 years of age it will be a race to excellence with survival of the fittest.

Talent is talent no matter where a kid plays during the LL years. If a kid has talent and works to improve what he has he can play rec ball or travel and that talent will be there at 15 and above. We can project how good we think a kid is but until the kid is 15 or 16 you really can't be sure. It depends on how he grows, how hard he works and how his talent grows with him. I have seen numerous kids who at 13 & 14 were "studs" (I hate that word) but at 15 & 16 are middle of the pack. Things change alot between 13 & 16. More than between 12-14 IMO.

Like others have said, some rec leagues are better than others. In larger towns the talent is pretty good with all teams having 4 or 5 good players. In small towns they might have 4 or 5 good players in the whole league.

Many local travel teams at ages 10-14 are nothing more than a dad and his friends starting a team for various reasons and these teams are no better than rec teams. The word travel does not equal good. Just because it is a travel team doesn't mean it's a good team loaded with top notch players. My son has been playing "travel" since he was 13 and many, if not most teams, I've seen are average at best. This might vary from region to region but with all the teams being formed nowadays the talent is being spread thin.

When you go to the PG or other national type tournaments you get to play against the better teams.

I also agree with Daque that a kid gets better in the off season working on his game, not during the season playing games. Suceeding against good competition is a result of hard work enhancing your talents.

In a way, I can see what you are saying Daque. Around here, there are so many travel teams, it can be almost like rec. I really think a lot of teams are formed by Dad's for their kids. My son started travel when he was 11 and it has been a positive thing for him. However, especially once he turned 13 and especially at 14, we sought after the best tournaments with the highest level of competition. Of the 12 or so kids on our 12 yr. old team, only 4 of them remained on the 14 yr. old team. And really only 2, maybe 3 actually belonged there.

The game, at least at a high level, passed the rest by. So I think you are right Daque in that you don't know what will happen with the "studs" at 12 in the years to come. That being said, I don't think that is a reason to say that you shouldn't play travel until you hit the big diamond (usually at 14). For those that do either stay a stud, or develop into a stud, the higher level of competition is invaluable.

The two kids who definetely needed to be on the 14 yr. old team both played a good bit of varsity as freshmen. One was a starting pitcher, one got a good bit of play time in the field and was often a DH. Would these guys have been able to do that without playing high level travel? I don't think so. If they had stayed in rec, would they eventually have been able to play varsity? I'm sure their talent would have played out over time and would have made it eventually.

However, given that they have played varsity starting so early (and they were both competitive), by the time they are seniors, with 4 years of varsity experience, they will be playing at a MUCH higher level.

So, my point is, yes, most kids will not benefit from playing travel at earlier ages, but those who do have the talent will benefit greatly from the increased competition that travel offers.

I never said that someone should not play travel. I meant to imply that it will make no difference once you reach the full sized diamond as it relates to player development. If the kid enjoys it and the parents can afford it, enjoy the moment. In addition, if a player shows promise on the full sized diamond, then playing with and against the best becomes very important.

Not meaning this in a put down manner but any HS team who has a 9th grader as a starting pitcher is suspect for quality. In addition, playing for the same coach for more than two years is counter productive. Nothing more to learn from him.

As to your last sentence and if we are talking about player development rather than a great recreational experience on the small diamond, we will just have to agree to disagree. What ever a kid gains in any aspect of the game gaianed on the small diamond can be picked up in one season on the full sized diamond negating any perceived advantage gained in travel.

A couple of points Daque.

1st - I will agree that our team was short on pitching and that is one of the reasons he got to start. On the other hand, he has been clocked consistently 82-84 on the fastball and has a very good breaking ball and change up that can be thrown for strikes. His overall record was 3-4 with a 4.04 ERA and 4 complete games. One bad start - take that away, he was 3-3 with a 2.7 ERA. Pretty respectable numbers. This is in arguably the most competitive region in the state of Georgia. He pitched against the two teams who wound up in the state championship game for the largest classification in the state. Beat one of them and lost to the other - both complete games. So I would say he got his chance due to the lack of upperclass pitchers, but certainly held his own. And he is not one of those giant kids. He is 5'9", 155 lbs.

2nd - In terms of pitching, the kid I am talking about has a very good mental makeup. Part of that is just part of who he is. But, part of it has a lot to do with being put in very stressful situations and facing the best teams this region of the country has to offer over the last several years. I really believe that if he was just playing rec ball, he would not have been challenged enough to handle the pressures of varsity baseball. He has also learned to actually pitch, not just throw. Once again, playing rec, his velocity alone would have allowed him to just throw the ball by most hitters. By playing a very competitive schedule, he needed to learn how to change speeds and spot his fastball.

I don't know if it matters that kids are playing on a small diamond prior to 14. It is the same game, just on a smaller scale. Now, if some kids do not grow and progress with their baseball skills as well as physically, you are right, it won't matter what they did on the small field. That is not to say that playing on the small field in a competitive environment will not help them in the long run. I think it still can, as long as the kids continue to progress to where they can handle the big field once they get there. Certainly, there are some who cannot deal with the larger field once they get there, but the smaller field/competitive environment can still benefit those who will be able to compete on the bigger field.

Hope that makes sense.

Travel makes sense once a teenager and the field is bigger and competition starts to equalize (doesn't equalize until all the kids are shaving and basically through puberty). Then you start to get a real idea of the kids that will progress and play HS. Nothing,absolutely nothing in the way of success on a small field at age 11 will have any bearing on a kid playing HS...just too many future factors still to come into play. Give me a team of extremely athletic 9 yr olds and in a couple weeks we'll take on a 10 yr travel team any day of the week...and it won't prove a thing towards any of the kids playing in HS.

The stud pitcher in HS would realistically still be a stud pitcher in HS even if he came up through rec ball. I've seen many rec coaches every bit as good as any coach at East Cobb so I don't get real impressed with arguments about travel ball having better coaching. Ultimately, it comes down to the kids themselves and their desire and work ethic. I can teach a kid the skills/mechanics but it is up to them to develop those skills....Daque is 100% correct about teaching versus learning.

Travel is rapidly becoming merely advanced rec ball. Many years ago when the Elite teams started popping up, they were comprised of the best of the best in that area and it meant something to make that team. Now, any Daddyball team can call themselves "Elite" and make everybody feel good and really believe their team had an "off day" when they get waxed by the real Elite tournament and showcase teams. bballman's point on how kids slowly get left behind by the game is very true.

All that said, should a kid play travel? If he has the talent and desire and more importantly, the decision is his and not the parents, than by all means give it a shot. Just don't get wrapped up with what happens on the field too much until they are teenagers. Be more concerned that they are learning mechanics and a set of skills/knowledge that will serve them in HS when most the players have matured into young men. Teach them the real beauty of baseball isn't in the W/L record, but the players ability to perform the skills properly when needed, such as laying down a sac bunt, hitting the relay man, using the proper footwork on a DP or a pitcher hitting the mitt exactly like he wanted....and knowing what they should do on every play. I get as much of a thrill seeing a LF properly backing up a throw as I do seeing a HR.

Daque - I guess it all boils down to what the standard is in the areas that we're all from. I don't believe that there is much to be gained from playing at the recreational level if you've got enough talent and ability to play against the best. Nor do I believe that playing travel ball validates you as "the best".

quote:

Originally posted by Daque:
Not meaning this in a put down manner but any HS team who has a 9th grader as a starting pitcher is suspect for quality.

I would NORMALLY agree. But as in the case of our local HS, if that FR is 6' tall, LEFT handed and throws middle 80's consistently with a good breaking ball....there is always an exception.. LOL

I think everyone is agreeing with my post, they just don't realize it... LOL

Everyone's opinion is based on their LOCALITY and the talent, or lack there of, in their area, and the abundance, or again lack there of, travel teams in there area.

I can tell you that our local HS JV team this past year, did not have ONE kid that didn't play some form of "travel" ball. In OUR Locality, that also means the 13-14 year old rec ball is not very popular, not well coached, and 99% of all the good to above average ball players end up playing on a "travel" team. And with 4 or 5 nice complexes withing an hour's drive hosting AAU/USSSA etc tournaments many months out of the year, it isn't reall "Travel".

ctandc: OK, since you are tuned into your local area's youth baseball scene, let me ask you a pretty simple question. What percent of the small field travel ball is daddyball? Mas o menos. (More or less)

Daque
Some "daddys" are pretty good coaches too. I hope I was (am). I watch HS practices and don't see anything they do that we didn't do. They just have more time and better fields and equipment.

I think as people grow with their kids (good hs players)they tend to forget the valuable experience and progression that their kids were able to make back in the 9-13 year old age playing travel ball. Sure, much has changed on perceptions, players individuality and such, but it seems like there is a movement in the ranks to discount the importance of travel ball before kids get to HS and that bothers me.

There are so many things to learn such as rules, situation plays, and everything else that it makes it almost impossible these days to just decide to pick up a bat as a 15 year in HS and expect to be good against the best talent. 20-30 years ago it was possible not having played much baseball to tryout for the team and make it if you had even the least amount of talent. Because travel ball has become so popular these days, it has definatly raised the bar on talent ability and making the HS team.

What do we credit the increased talent in todays high school ball to? I would guess that more than anything else credit goes to more and more kids playing more competetive ball leading up to heading into HS. When i was a kid, there was only maybe a handful of travel teams in my area. Now there are over three hundred teams within a 3 hour driving range of my town, and I live in one of the least populated areas in the country! With the increase of travel teams and publicity, more kids try out for both rec ball and travel ball thus increasing the % of finding thr tru talent diamond in the rough. Kids who play a year or two of travel ball and find out they are good by todays better standards will almost always find themselves being recruited by coaches of travel teams to exploit that talent.

So, in todays world, in this country, there is an increase in popularity for baseball in general. The talent among travel teams is at an all time high, More talented baseball players at the youth level are excelling more now than ever before. HS ball is actually becoming highly competetive nowdays unlike before when only a handful of truly talented kids in any given area played and most were assured college scholarships or even being drafted.

The travel team league in my area produced kids with enough talent last year that in their rec ball, which they also played, (Cal Ripken League) they took a team to state, then to regionals, and then from there to the Cal Ripken world series back east. This is all in light that these kids come from a relatively small town in a low population area and yet they can compete with the very best of the best in the entire country, many of which come from bigger cities and bigger league pool areas. a year and a half from now, those same kids will enter HS and once again raise the bar again in our area on what type of talent is required to play HS ball.

I credit 90% of the increase we see in HS to travel ball popularity before the HS years. Kids going into HS nowdays know what an infield fly rule is, they know where, why and how to bunt in every situation, they know weird things like legal bat and mit size, and even know the difference in running and turning ability by looking at the pattern of the cleats on the bottom of their feet! They know the difference in hitting ability in every weather situation, how to play in the rain, wind, in low light conditions and when the sun is right in your way.

Kids today entering HS are way better disciplined to playing at the next level also, they have more ability to control nerves and emotions to go along with their talent.

It really all comes down to how many years of experience a person has under their belt in countless situations that makes their true talent shine, and you just aint gonna get there playing just rec ball these days, it is just too competetive and the talent now is greater than 20-30 years ago.

And it is all due mostly because of the popularity of travel ball.

Not to change the subject but has it always been called "travel" ball in most parts of the country?
Here in the Houston area I never hear that term. It's called "select". Or tournament team.

We don't have to "travel" to find good tournaments so maybe that's why.

quote:

Originally posted by cball:
Not to change the subject but has it always been called "travel" ball in most parts of the country?
Here in the Houston area I never hear that term. It's called "select". Or tournament team.

We don't have to "travel" to find good tournaments so maybe that's why.

I've seen ball called travel when the travel is just to the next town. Until this year (16U) our travel was not overnight. I've also seen/heard loose interpretations of the term "select." Anyone can start a travel/select team. The bottom line is it's about the level of competition and play regardless of what label is put on the team or player.

cball,
You are right where Select or Elite ball in Texas got its start back in the late 70's. Those teams could flat out play baseball and were the cream of the crop. American Legion used to fill that role when I was coming up.

The verbiage used for the wide variety of teams these days has become so screwed up nobody knows what a team really is until you see them play.

Gingerbread Man: What skill learned on the small diamond cannot be learned proficiently on the large diamond in one season?

quote:

Gingerbread Man: What skill learned on the small diamond cannot be learned proficiently on the large diamond in one season?

Its all accumalative from years playing on the small fields and playing competetively. One year on the big field doesn't equate to the 4 years experience playing travel ball previously. Kids who have played for a few years competetivley are perhaps a bar above those who haven't.

I believe any talented player who starts playing travel at 13U will be at the same level by 15U (if not a month into his 13U season) he would have been had he started travel with open bases at 10U.

Since my son just got finished with his LL juniors season tonight, I would like to make a comment about the rec in Phoenix. I saw the same thing over and over again. The few kids who had talent, had a serious attitude problem. They had never been pushed like in travel. They never had to compete. They never had to work hard. They thought they were great when they were just OK with potential. They had bad mechanics, bad coaching, and bad attitudes. IMO, their parents did them a great disservice in allowing them to stagnate in a bad baseball environment. They were never challenged, they knew they were better than 99% of the kids they played with and against, and they never had to work hard to succeed.

They are in for a rude awakening next year in HS. They are completely unprepared for HS ball in every aspect of the game.

quote:

Since my son just got finished with his LL juniors season tonight, I would like to make a comment about the rec in Phoenix. I saw the same thing over and over again. The few kids who had talent, had a serious attitude problem. They had never been pushed like in travel. They never had to compete. They never had to work hard. They thought they were great when they were just OK with potential. They had bad mechanics, bad coaching, and bad attitudes. IMO, their parents did them a great disservice in allowing them to stagnate in a bad baseball environment. They were never challenged, they knew they were better than 99% of the kids they played with and against, and they never had to work hard to succeed.

They are in for a rude awakening next year in HS. They are completely unprepared for HS ball in every aspect of the game.

Could I get an Amen!

It is so true, I watch year in and year out these little league studs who are so unprepared for HS ball and yet in their minds- they are the greatest. They hang out at all the ballgames during the season spreading their notoriety and fame- in their own minds, and to some of the lesser talent, they are heroes!

And then reality whacks them in HS tryouts and the dreaded cut from the team.

There is definatley something to be said for travel ball and the excersize in humility that comes along with it! Kids who thought they were just the best around suddenly get struck out, or even worse- they find out that other kids are just as good and even better than them! After the humbling comes the reality that there are many things that need to be improved- that perhaps, maybe they need to actually learn how to play the game the way it is supposed to be played!

Nowdays you can always tell who the travel team studs are- they are usually the silent ones, who after having waded the waters of humility, realize that there are a thousand other kids around with just as much talent as themselves! They don't brag, heck, they seldom even have to say anything about their own talent because they know that there are many things that still need to be learned! And when, they do finally face that cocky kid who brags about his little league star status, they end up just throwing three straight changeups right down the middle of the plate having them foolishly swing out of their shoes at the most incredibly slowest pitch ever striking them out and dish them up their own humble pie without ever opening the mouth- Now that is class, and that is what the next level is all about.

Two years ago while trying to put together a travel team (we call them "superleague" here btw) I stipulated that we weren't gonna play city rec ball and immediatly the asst. coach and his son weren't on board any more- they said that their city team would be good that year and he really wanted his son to shine versus just being mediocre or average on the travel team. What is the alure of striking out the next trombone hs band star anyway? You knew they wouldn't swing anyway.

Personally, I want my kid to face the best talent around and learn how to cope with lifes toughest challenges- win or lose, they gain far more out of life knowing they went up against Goliath and gave it their best!

It's about talent not where you play.

A kid can start playing travel when he's 5 until he's 12 but if he doesn't have the talent to compete when he's 16 it doesn't matter where he played.
If another kid has very good tools (talent) and plays rec until 12 because he plays other sports, then decides to just play and work on baseball he will speed past the travel lifer with less talent.

I am not a travel basher, I realize the better players gravitate towards travel baseball nowadays. But, playing travel does not give you talent you don't already have. When a player is 15 or 16 and shows real talent no one cares where he played when he was 10 or 12. What is important is to work on and improve natural talents.

This question concerns players with the innate physical abilities to play HS baseball, not those on the bubble.

The scale: 1 is not important and 10 is extremely important.

On the rating system given, how important in your experience to making the HS team is having played small diamond travel ball?

quote:

Originally posted by Daque:
This question concerns players with the innate physical abilities to play HS baseball, not those on the bubble.

The scale: 1 is not important and 10 is extremely important.

On the rating system given, how important in your experience to making the HS team is having played small diamond travel ball?

No one can answer that. Although you may feel you already know the answer...
Ask yourself this: How important was it that Tiger Woods learned golf and muscle memory between the ages of 2 and 12? How important is it that Martina Navratolova is teaching tennis to Russian 5 year olds. Those 5 year old females from Russia that begin at 5 (including Maria Sharapova) are now adults and dominating the tennis circuit.

MLB.com had an article saying they believed travel ball at a younger ages is what is leading to all the talent they are seeing now.

There is value in playing for quality coaches at a young age. I think you would agree that as its true in almost every sport. Not sure why people think baseball is exempt from early development and muscle memory.

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:
It's about talent not where you play.

A kid can start playing travel when he's 5 until he's 12 but if he doesn't have the talent to compete when he's 16 it doesn't matter where he played.
If another kid has very good tools (talent) and plays rec until 12 because he plays other sports, then decides to just play and work on baseball he will speed past the travel lifer with less talent.

I am not a travel basher, I realize the better players gravitate towards travel baseball nowadays. But, playing travel does not give you talent you don't already have. When a player is 15 or 16 and shows real talent no one cares where he played when he was 10 or 12. What is important is to work on and improve natural talents.

Travel will not make a kid without the talent more talented. Travel will hone the skills of the talented more than rec ball. Will the talented be able to play HS whether he plays travel or not? Of course. I also believe it will help him be more prepared by the time he gets there. And yes I think that can be accomplished on the small diamond as well as the big one.

That being said, the more talented kids need to get on the better teams facing better competition. There are travel teams out there that are no better than rec teams. Challenge yourself to get better. Period.

However, I do go out to tournaments and see the 8 and 9 year old kids in tournaments. I just think that is too young. I have also seen Coach Pitch tournaments. If kids are so young that they have to have coaches pitch for them, that is too young to be playing tournaments on a travel team.

By the time you get to 11 or 12, maybe 10, it can't hurt to play travel and I believe it can help.

If you have no experience then I can see why you cannot answer the question but you cannot transpose that to everyone.

For every Tiger Woods there are hundreds if not thousands who tried and failed. Beginning at a young age cannot guarantee success without innate ability. And that is genetically determined, not acquired.

Your premise that travel ball on the small diamond is what makes the difference is flawed. Playing is what is important, not where you play. A good coach offers opportunities to learn and a great coach helps develop the player's mental side of the game. Can you deny that there are good coaches in rec as well as travel? Can you deny that daddyball has corrupted the original thrust of taking really good players and placing them on the same team so that they could learn at an accelerated pace?

If MLB made such a statement as you claim it merely means that they do not know what they are talkig about in this sphere.

Your implied assumption that travel ball has a monopoly on good quality coaches and rec. ball has a paucity of good quality coaches is without merit. You place way too much emphasis at an early age on the role of the coach. The best young kids can hope for from their coach is that he does not screw them up or kill the love of the game.

Hopefully, whatever team and at whatever level the player finds himself, he will be provided with the opportunity to learn.

You denigrate the roll of rec. ball which is where you recruit travel players. The hard work is done. They know which way to run the bases, which hand to wear the glove on, and the fundamentals of batting and throwing. Otherwise travel would not recruit them. They learned these thngs in rec. ball from the coaches there. Yes, the very rec. coaches that know nothing.

Yes, it is important to start young. No, it is not important where that is. Overall, travel is selling players and parents a line of **** when they pontificate about getting kids ready for the next level. The kids get themselves ready, not the coaches. The coaches sit on their ball bucket and take credit for the innate ability of the players they recruit. Costly, laughable, ineffective, and pathetic.

Having said all of the above, if a kid wants to play against better competition because he enjoys the game and the challenge, that is fine. Just make sure the parents do not have a return on investment motivation. And shy away from coaches who make promises to the kids that they cannot keep. Kids on the bubble are at most risk at getting scammed. The kids destined to go on will go on in any event and from whatever league in which they participate in spite of where they layed on the small diamond.

Unfortunately, there are regions in the country where the HS coaches sip the same Kool Ade as the travel people and do not have the ability to recognize undeveloped talent. But since HS ball is becoming less and less relevent many college recruits will develop their game outside of that realm playing summer ball and participating in show case events.

And nobody will remember or care about what happened on the small diamond.

First you say...

"Your implied assumption that travel ball has a monopoly on good quality coaches and rec. ball has a paucity of good quality coaches is without merit."

I agree with that statement. There are a TON of great coaches in REC ball.

But then you say...

"The (travel ball) coaches sit on their ball bucket and take credit for the innate ability of the players they recruit."

Are there not a TON of great coaches in Travel Ball too...?

Your "implied assumption" is that all they do is recruit and not coach is also without merit, IMHO.

Just sayin'...