Travel - Rec - Future Success

quote:

The debate is supposed to be about if playing travel ball = future success.

No. The original point of the debate was whether or not travel ball on the small diamond was necessary to future success. People with own agendas changed the thrust.

Another quote: "We are talking about if, "good natural talent" benefits from playing travel ball before HS years." Again, no. On the small diamond is the point of reference. The question is not about benefiting. Is it necessary for future success?

Another quote: "Travel ball will always benefit the better players over rec ball and better prepare them for HS...." Once again, the original point of the debate has been skewed. The question remains is/was travel ball played on the small diamond necessary for a player to be successful up the ladder? Benefits gained are subjective, especially if applied in hind sight.

Generally there is a year of play on the full sized diamond before HS tryouts. It is here that the game changes dramitically and a lot of it is due to the size of the diamond. The boo rah plays of the small diamond days won't work anymore. The wrist flick home run days are over. The player with the natural abilities will catch up without difficulty on any shortcomings acquired on the small diamond in either rec. or travel. The weaker players that just cannot make the plays anymore are culled out.

Let me redefine the question. Is it necessary to play travel ball rather than rec. when on the small diamond to obtain future success in the game? ORMom's post and my experiences garnered from over 50 years of youth ball observations say no. A year of full sized diamond ball evens out the two groups before HS tryouts and only the cream of the innate ability players will remain regardless of their irrelevent small diamond days.

necessary VS advisable ?

The simple answer to the question may be NO but how boring is that?
If you can't adjust to the big diamond it is usually because your not strong enough.
I watched a Bantam game last night for as long as I could take it. I saw kids who couldn't make the throws. That was a travel team. I watched an elite Bantam age game last week. They all were strong enough to make the adjustment.
Just because something is not necessary doesn't mean that it isn't ADVISABLE. To me it is advisable to get to the highest level team you can afford.

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To me it is advisable to get to the highest level team you can afford.

I presume you are referring to the small diamond and so I ask why is it advisbale? To reduce boredom? Advisable if you want to accomlish what? What is the desired end point?

I not sure I should have to answer that,

My son played rec ball apart way through rookie ball. (No pitching). He was called up after 2 weeks to the travel team. The next year due to a coaching change and politics he and most of the best players on the rookie team were cut. (1st year of pitching. My son was carded so he could be called up. This was all small diamond. That was an interesting year but a different topic. The difference in athletic ability and talent was remarkable. He enjoyed the players personally but it was boring to say the least. He was on a weak team and pitchers were limited to 4 innings. He struck out almost every batter he faced. His coach confided in me that he had no idea who was getting in the draft. Even his rookie coach passed him up because he was not a strong hitter and none ever saw him pitch. His former rookie coach who had the strongest team out of 12 teams paid the price in the playoffs. That was the only fun part of the year was knocking them off and holding them scoreless for 4 innings he pitched.
My point is that my son wouldn't have been satisfied with rec ball. The players in general showed no desire to play hard, didn't workout 1/10th that the travel elite teams did and even the regular travel teams under the Ontario Baseball system.
During rookie ball his rec coaches were great guys. One was in the MiLB and another played pro fastball. There were also some pretty good athletes on that team but non of them made the all star team next year.
The next year my son made the major mosquito team but was getting very little playing time. Finally he got to pitch on his birthday and threw a no hitter against the team that won their OBA division championship. I asked my son what the coach said to him and he snapped back "nothing". He was noticeably unhappy. I recommended we wash the uniform and thank the coach and go play rec ball. He blew his top at me. He said he would rather sit the bench. Fortunately that never happened.
I have seen guys who played regular travel ball here go on to play collage and pro ball. Non of them played of stayed in rec ball for more than 1 year. My son only went there at mosquito because of politics. The coach was fired 1/3 of the way through the year.
I will say it again. The only reason our kids play on the small diamond is to grow and develop strength. If they have talent they will adjust easily.
The desired end point was to play the best players possible. He was not thinking college at that time. As time went on his goal was to pay for college.

quote:

The desired end point was to play the best players possible.

Because of what? Perhaps to measure himself against them? That is the motivation for many kids, to see how good they are against the best.

Certainly the best will change as time goes on. Sounds like he was more content where he was and the daddyball aspect was gone. At least as it relates to him.

Playing on the small diamond is a better fit for most preasolescent kids. The better players do get restless in rec. ball for the reason I mentioned. They are looking for a challenge and were not getting it in rec. ball. Some kids are content with the level of play in rec. and yet, with time, move on to HS ball having never played travel.

Different situations fit different kids at different times in their baseball careers. But things get more serious once on the full sized diamond. It is at this time that travel can be very helpful. Before that it is an option but not a necessity. You cannot buy talent or improve upon genetics. Not with travel, nor clinics, nor tutoring. The kids on the bubble might buy an extra year of play this way, perhaps freshman ball. But slick mechanics will not trump innate ability and the cream will pass them buy as they rise to the top.

I understand what you are saying and yes I saw kids get better but all of them wanted to play elite travel ball.
Nick Weglarz (Indians)is an example of a guy who was very unremarkable at the lower level. He was even cut by a AAA travel team locally. I never heard of him until he played for an elite team and got motivated by great coaches and playing top teams.
I live in a BB hot bed 60 miles from Toronto. I watch several guys who have developed into great ball players. I can't imagine 1 of them wanting to play rec ball.
We actually have some good JR and SR rec teams with good players who either didn't go to college or who want to play locally and not travel even short distances. We also have 3 very strong senior teams that are full of ex pros and college guys. One just got drafted i believe 86th who played on the Brantford Red Sox. This SR league has had several guys drafted. What makes Paul Spoljeric (former Jays pitcher) continue to play ? what makes all the former pros want to play ? I believe it is the same thing that made my son and every other young player want to play the best.
Daddy ball never dies. You just never hear me complain about it. For that matter I never complain about parents either.

quote:

People with own agendas changed the thrust.

Who has an agenda? Sometimes topics go away from original topic with different ideas.But since my posts have been off topic I will remove them so that we are not off topic.

Don't worry about it fan. That is what makes topics interesting. Daque has his own agenda and has twisted his share of topics.

fanofgame: Boohoo? Taking your ball and going home? I did not mention your name in regards to veering off target to have a different discussion. I meant no offense in trying to stay on topic. Nor did I express any hurt feelings when the topic was changed to address other issues. I guess this is as good a place as any to end things on whatever topic we are on at the moment. Adios a todos.

quote:

Daque has his own agenda and has twisted his share of topics.

Cite where.

One that I know of. You got off track. I am sure I can find many others if I cared to spend all of my free time proving you wrong. I don't care to.

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...07535/m/72810259/p/2

In the case cited, the OP was asking why warmup pitches, etc. were not counted in pitch counts.

My explanation that pitch counts as designed by AMSI took all of these factors into consideration before formulating the age appropriate count. To count them again would be doubling up.

The twisting is where?

I came to this board to share information with other posters. Perhaps my directness ruffled some feathers. I try to choose my words very carefully since internet communication lends itself to less than clear meanings and, as usual, people tend to interpret things in the light of their own belief systems.

Looking back on this string I believe that I over explained. I know that I invaded into some posters core belief system and should have expected the reaction received. Mea culpa.

I have quite enough to keep me occupied here in Mexico during my retirement years and concerning myself with debates that go quickly to arguments is not on that agends.

Perhaps our paths, as opposed to our swords, shall cross later but I need a time out from this hostility for the time being.

The OP was about keeping track of your own pitch counts to keep your kids safe. Where does this fit in?

"The pitch counts that are generally accepted were developed by ASMI (American Sports Medicine Institute) after considerable ressearch and experimentation. The numbers that they offered for use took into consideration items such as mentioned as a concern here. To include them as a part of the number to be used would be doubling up.

"In this particular area of discussion board we are supposed to be addressing issues of the pre HS set.

Keeping a very detailed pitching chart for this age group is contradictory since what is called ends up being something and somewhere else. Kids have not mastered the command and control necessary to make a chart accurate. As they say, "GIGO." Garbage in, garbage out."

Or this?

"
Posted May 05, 2009 12:33 PM Hide Post
I am not sure what you mean when you say at first you let the catchers call the game. Later you don't? Pitcher is just a machine to chuck the ball?

If you want your pitchers and catchers to learn the game they must be allowed to make mistakes and learn from them with your assistance.

HS coaches call the game because the players have never learned how or because the coach wants to retain power in all matters.

Pro players know the game that you are introducing to your munchkins. Pro players are on the down side of the learning curve. Same for college ball.

My point is that it is in the best interest of the players to learn to call their own game. A team effort, not just the catcher. They have the best view of the batter, where he stands, late or early swinger, afraid of the ball, etc. etc. "

Or this?

"nc: Mea culpa. I let myself get dragged off topic. The topic got side tracked. Not only into who calls pithes but the age group. This should have been about the pre HS age group.

While off topic, in the pre HS group I allow the battery to call the game and we discuss mistakes when they come back into the dugout.

There is little, if any, difference in the motivation to call pitches by coaches with HS and above. They figure, and rightly so, if they don't produce wins they are screwed. The question then becomes whether they trust the pitcher/catcher more than themself. An easy decision.

But below HS the kids should be learning the nuances of the reasoning betweeen what pitches to call when. They may never get to use it again but then you never know. Better to have a skill that you cannot use than to need a skill you never acquired."

Bad Daque, getting off topic. Shame on you. As you can see, everybody does it and everybody has there own agenda, even you big guy.

Noted.

Daque, enjoyed the banter. You're definitely well grounded and firm in your stance. I can appreciate that.

I tend to agree with Daque in that before the full sized field the differences between travel and rec matter little in terms of necessity.

I believe that talent will rise to the level of competition and that raising a baseball player is a marathon and not a sprint. I think that we can sometimes get to focused on one element (and baseball can be too important too early) in raising our boys to men.

My step-son played rec ball through age 12. He did play on all-star teams each year that traveled and played tournaments after the rec ball season completed. He began playing travel ball on a AA level at 13. This season he continued to play travel ball at AA level until his team folded (feeder team). Since then we have tried out and made a major travel team.

Some of the factors:

1. My step-son is a pitcher and I feel too many innings before growth plates harden increases the chance of injury/deformity. I would rather error on the side of caution than find out after a major injury.

2. A travel ball schedule reduced the amount of time my step-son actually spent with his family. Since his parents are split, this means he spent less time with his father. This is one of the factors where I mean that it is more important in raising him to be a man at the expense of raising him to be a ball player.

3. Church - since many travel teams play tournaments on weekends, it was/is difficult to make our Sunday worship service. We find it difficult now with the major travel team he is on but we make due. We felt that at an earlier age it was important.

I will say that I have heard in this area that coaches will look at a players "resume" when trying out. Playing travel prior to HS can be a factor in the player's opportunity in making the HS team. Whether this is right or wrong it can be a reality.

Great post Daingean. Spot on.

The only thing you left out is that playing mulitple sports will make a better and more balanced athlete and young man.

When you reach HS the coach could care less about how you got there. If you contribute to the team you will play, end of story.

I agree at this point. I want my sons to play all sports until a certain age that they will tell me they want to concentrate on one or multiple sports. My son at 11 wanted to concentrate on baseball and wanted to join a travel team. Yet, with his past experience in football, boxing and basketball - he is very athletic and more physically in shape than most die-hard travel teamers who have played since 7u or 8u. I think between 11 and 13 is a good time to start. Plus, he is starting jr. high using heavier bats and larger diamonds - perfect timing. We're enjoying and he is enjoying the experience. Yes we have aspirations of him playing college ball. But if not, he will never forget this experience travel ball gave him and what he made out of it.

To the original post, I would say at least 90% of the players making the major HS teams in our area come out of some level of travel ball.

I would agree with the 11-12U age to get engaged in travel. There is a level of competition they get exposure to at travel ball they would never experience in league.

Kids that play travel baseball at these ages are the better players to start with. If not they would not be asked or invited to play on these teams. Then the advantate that they have naturally by just being more talented at an earlier age is even increased by the fact they are playing and practicing with players of equal or more talent. This allows them to play up to their ability and challenges them to play at even a higher level. Then if you add in the fact that many of these teams have coaching that is very good and instruction that is very good there is even a bigger advantage.

There will always be some kids that come out of the local rec league that turn into outstanding players. But the fact is kids that are already at a disadvantage because they are naturally not as talented are even at a bigger disadvantage when the players that are more talented at an earlier age are advancing their games with better competition , better coaching and more advance experience in the game.

It used to be the better players only advantage was the fact they were just naturally better players. Now the advantages are even greater when these players take advantage of the opportunities that are out there at a young age. JV baseball is actually a step down in competition for many of these players when they enter HS. While at the same time to the other guys its a huge step up in competition.

But I have seen things turn around very quickly once these guys reach the hs level. Some very good travel ball players who were very talented for their age are passed by the kids who were not talented enough at a younger age to be asked to play on the travel teams. Kids change drastically during the hs years. And some are the same player for four years. You just cant bank on success at 12-14 being success at 17-19. Just work hard , do the best you can and let the cards fall where they fall.

quote:

Then if you add in the fact that many of these teams have coaching that is very good and instruction that is very good there is even a bigger advantage.

This is the key right here. But no parent should assume just because a team carries the travel label there will be quality coaching. There are plenty of travel teams up to 14U started by dads to give their kid the advantage after he got "screwed" someplace else.

That is very true RJM that is why I said many and not all. The key thing to look for is coaching and instruction and the type of person the coach is as well. Usually the better players will gravitate towards these types of coaches. The teams that are ran by the Dad or Dads you describe will always be in flux always be embroiled in some type of controversy as well. They are easy to spot and need to be avoided at all cost.

if you don't play club ball it doesnt mean anything. I played 1 year of club ball and i am playing college ball. I think not pitching 6 months out of the year helped save my arm. My parents weren't dumb enough to throw my arm out in meaningless games.

Not trying to get on you but your previous posts are confusing.
"I throw 75-78 am a lefty but my ball tails a butt load and i am going to pitch in college next year and have before its all about movement and location."
You also ask questions that show you have Little or no proper training. Plus you said you would play college next year. Also said you had mild tendinitis.
Just keeping it real. You are not a good candidate to give advice on this. You have also had 2 posts deleted by a moderator.

Hey bozo i really don't care what you think of me i am getting my school paid for with baseball next semester so i could care less what you think.

quote:

Originally posted by NCULEFT:
Hey bozo i really don't care what you think of me i am getting my school paid for with baseball next semester so i could care less what you think.

Maybe a portion of your school is being paid for. But I'll bet it's less than half being paid for by baseball. I've never heard of colleges throwing baseball money at pitchers throwing in the upper 70's. Every pitcher on my son's high school team throws harder. What conference will you be playing in?

I was curious why the discrepancy in your posts.

funny thing i got clocked in the 80-85 range consistently 82 last week. I will be playing in the GSAC. 80-85 Lefty fastball that tails and sinks, Cutter, change and curve i can throw all for strikes...good enough. Throwing 75-78 got me all league in high school. Bottom line is you aren't the one paying for part of my school or the one who decides when i pitch so i really don't care.

Looks like a good League:

STANDINGS (May 29, 2009 - Final Stats)

GSAC Overall
Team W L T Pct W L T Pct
Point Loma Nazarene. 28 8 0 .778 45 13 0 .776
Fresno Pacific...... 24 12 0 .667 39 21 0 .650
Biola............... 23 13 0 .639 35 24 0 .593
Azusa Pacific....... 22 14 0 .611 36 20 0 .643
The Master's........ 22 14 0 .611 37 22 0 .627
California Baptist.. 16 20 0 .444 27 23 0 .540
Concordia CA........ 16 20 0 .444 22 26 0 .458
Vanguard............ 13 23 0 .361 19 28 0 .404
Westmont............ 12 24 0 .333 16 31 0 .340
San Diego Christian. 4 32 0 .111 13 34 0 .277

Established in 1986 by like-minded institutions, the GSAC members are all Christian colleges. They are purposely aligned to be similar in enrollment, academics, athletics and student life. The GSAC uniquely links sport sponsorship to enrollment and adjusts athletic scholarships and financial aid to the cost of education at each institution, thereby maintaining a constant ratio for all members.

quote:

Hey bozo i really don't care what you think of me i am getting my school paid for with baseball next semester so i could care less what you think.

quote:

Bottom line is you aren't the one paying for part of my school or the one who decides when i pitch so i really don't care.

Dad, academic grants or financial grants paying for college doesn't count as baseball paying your way.

I am getting some money for baseball, some for grades, some grants but the bottom line is i am getting money... a good portion to play baseball at school for a top program in NAIA. Is someone a little jealous they didn't play past high school. Like I said before you don't decide when i pitch or how much i pitch so i could give a rat's *** what you think.

quote:

i could give a rat's *** what you think.

Sounds like you will fit right in. Good luck.

quote:

Is someone a little jealous they didn't play past high school.

No. I think a particular poster's behavior is questionable, along with his ability to jump to conclusions on situations where he is ignorant. Fortunately I'm not the mean spirited type. Otherwise I might post something comparing my experience and my oldest kid's experience like, "Oh Geezzz, only NAIA ball?" But I won't since it would be insulting to other posters on the board who may be playing NAIA ball and aren't the jerk you are. Another thing. You're dealing with mostly adults on this board. Stop acting like a punk. It won't get you far in your life.