Travel Team bringing in a Sub?

If the team invites a player as a favor he should expect to play. If it's for a day (multiple games) or a weekend he doesn't have to play every inning. However, I do understand the perspective of the paying parents. This is an example of why everything needs to be laid out and explained to parents before the season. 

My son infrequently guested on teams from 13-16u. I expected him to play at least five of the seven innings. I figured he should bat last and play left. As a pitcher he wasn't more than an innings eater. 

When I needed guest players they played secondary positions unless I needed a pitcher or catcher. They batted lower in the order. When I used guest players they were prospects for next year's team.

Add: The 16u team (15yos) had sixteen players. Four were pitchers only.

Understand your concern as a paying parent...if you feel the need to discuss with the coach in a positive way then I'd say go for it.  When I coached travel I have used fill-ins occasionally when needed.  At 15U, 13 players is not a large roster, in my experience its about average.  If your son continues to play travel next year you will likely see a jump in the # of players on the roster.

As a coach you don't bring a sub along to sit the bench. You have to balance that with keeping your players and parents happy that are paying the bill.   Perhaps the coach is evaluating him for a permanent spot or would like to have him as a permanent member of the team and is trying to bring him into the fold.  Could be that the sub is versatile and plays a position(s) that is needed on the team regardless of whether you had 10 players or 12 players there.  Could be that the coach has future plans for the team beyond 15U that would require a larger roster and wants the sub as part of it.  Maybe he sees that he is going to lose a few players to football in the fall and is trying to keep this sub player as a possibility for using down the road. 

Its also very common as you venture into "Showcase" teams that 1-2 players don't pay or pay less than some of the other players on the team.  I've been in your shoes as a dad and I've been on the other side as a coach.  If you feel the conversation needs to be had I think it's fine as long as you do it at a time when you are cooled off. 

You should anticipate and expect it, sorry, but it's just the way it is. Communication in this day and age is a lost art, voicing your concern can lead to a mess, if you choose to discuss-do it face to face, one on one with coach, hopefully he respects your concerns, but they are your concerns-possibly not his. It's a personal choice to open up dialogue, can result positively or negatively. Best thing for a 15 year old to learn from this is to work so that he is not the victim of the circumstance. Talent plays and should play, figure out from a personal standpoint if it's the right team for you guys, with the right philosophy. If not, find your son another team. Best of luck, you'll get others chiming in this.

Well now here's a topic right up my alley.  This is just my opinion but lets start with:

13 players on a 15U team that has "plenty of pitching"?  I would highly question that math.   How many games in a day and how many games in the average Tournament?  What is the pitch count?

I doubt your son's team has 3 pitcher only players but lets say they do.   10 players playing 5-6 games in a weekend?   You ever do the math on how many throws a Shortstop makes or a 3B over the course of a game?  Kids playing those positions for more than 2 games in a day is a recipe for disaster.  Even 5 games over the course of 3 days is pushing it.  Same with Catchers.  And God Forbid those kids are pitching also.  

After a kid throws 75-85 pitches he really shouldn't play defense anywhere but 1B, period, in my opinion, for at least several days

My 14U kid had 3 games this weekend, one on Friday and 2 on Saturday.  He played LF/CF/SS on Friday, didn't play any defense in Game 1 Saturday and played Shortstop the entire Game 2 Saturday.   I was happy he didn't play defense on Sat in Game 1.  It rested his arm and gave other kids opportunities.

This morning I asked him how his arm feels.  "Great!" was the answer.  That is what you want.

He plays plenty of Outfield too.  Lots of throws there as well.  It adds up

Guest players help keep the arms fresh.  They should get plenty of opportunities to play.   Let them hit wherever they can help a team.  A rising tide carries all boats

I have more to say on the subject but will perhaps save that for later.

I would expect a HS aged travel team to have 20-25 kids on the roster. Maybe a half-dozen of those being POs.

This topic comes up frequently. 

When you sign up for a travel team, you are are either a) buying an opportunity to compete for playing time and the most visible playing opportunities in front of the most important audiences, or b) buying playing time.

Sometimes the distinction is not made clear, and people feel hurt and ill-treated when they think they bought playing time when they really bought a chance to compete. 

When you buy an opportunity to compete, you make the transition from the world of guaranteed play offered by Little League, house leagues, "daddy ball" and strictly developmental teams.

Once your son makes this transition, he can expect to have to fight for every opportunity he gets on every team he plays on, whether it is a travel, high school, college, or pro team. That will be the reality of his baseball experience for the rest of his playing career.

It's an uncomfortable but necessary transition.

Best wishes,

DALEX posted:

My son's 15U summer team carries 13 players when healthy with plenty of pitching.  Last weekend, we were gonna be down to 10, so coaches brought in a known player to them to sub for the weekend and that did not seem unreasonable for a weekend tournament to me.  However, this weekend the team would have had 12 available, yet the sub was back bringing the total to 13 players.  Not only that, but that player got more playing time than 3 or 4 of the paying players. There are a few parents who are quite upset, including myself, as my son was one who sat a game so the sub could play.  Is this something one should just anticipate they have to deal with, or should I communicate my concern?

The sub is a double edged sword.  If you're a sub you probably expect to play, otherwise why bother.  You have your own team or other things to do than ride someone else's bench.  So to give a kid an incentive coaches will likely guarantee playing time.  So that means someone who's been there will loose out.  Coaches need to communicate and figure out how to manage it.  

Now here's the thing.  In my experience HS age tournaments are more spread out.  They'll start on thursdays (a whole other parent complaint) and will play one game per day.  Or they will go 1, 2, 1 then bracket on Sunday.  So you could potentially schedule the sub to only come the day he will play.  That way he's helping out and not wasting his time sitting. 

Good responses by others.

At 16, son's first experience with scout ball, the roster was nearly 40 players.  If you are paying to play, just understand what the agreement is in regards to what playing time, if any, is assured to your son.  Aside from that, it is not your or his problem to worry about - a huge waste to try and determine everything going on behind the scenes with coaches trying to keep teams in tact.  Your player should focus on being the best player he can be, making it VERY hard for any coach to take him off the field.  As Swamp referenced, he is about to enter the world of zero guarantee, earn your way and then re-earn it again every day.  To complain about a guest player is just showing you son an example and setting him up for a future of excuses.  I am not being direct to be an @$$.  I am trying to help with what will ultimately be the most productive approach.  

The best thing you can do as a parent - 

1. Counsel your son in understanding what effort will be required to succeed and what resources he will need to tap into.

2.  Be a fan of his as well as a fan of any teammate and team that he is involved in, regardless of the circumstances.

In our area it's common for a 15u team to have at least 15 players for the standard season so this doesn't seem strange at all to me. it's very common to pick up a player or two if guys are out or are injured. 

While I understand your position, I agree there are a lot of good responses in this thread. If your son was one of the pitchers, he may have needed a break from throwing anyway. 

What Swampboy said!!

Especially:

"Once your son makes this transition, he can expect to have to fight for every opportunity he gets on every team he plays on, whether it is a travel, high school, college, or pro team. That will be the reality of his baseball experience for the rest of his playing career.

It's an uncomfortable but necessary transition."

BTW, a note on communication from coaches -

At the moment, I am working thru the task putting together our short summer HS program.  Should be pretty easy and straight forward.  Roughly 12 games in 4 weeks, culminating with a tourney.  I prioritize returning V, then returning JV and then, if necessary, incoming frosh to fill roster spots.  

Well, with our HS players' other travel team schedules, vacations, other HS sport activities, kids finding jobs, etc., the roster changes game to game and sometimes several times a day.  Considering the pool of V, JV and frosh, I am dealing with about fifty kids, none of which has every game date available.  It's a frickin' nightmare.  This is before we even deal with travel logistics, opposing teams backing out, field availability, uni's, etc.  No way in heck would I be able to regularly communicate "other player" changes (which can occur hourly) and how that may affect your kid's PT for our summer program.  He will know he is on the roster for a given date.  That's as much as you can realistically expect.  Summer/Fall travel teams sometimes deal with similar issues.

Both of our pitcher sons were 'hired guns' a small handful of times.  To me, it was usually for a higher level travel team and I kind of looked at it as a tryout and/or as a chance for us to figure out if it was the right 'next' team for us.  In both cases, we found good matches...and bad ones.

In both sons' cases, other subs or hired guns came out from time to time.  I also knew exactly what it was and welcomed it.  It didn't distract me...nor our sons as far as I could tell.  A team with 10 future D1 pitchers makes #11 a little bit better and maybe the 11th D1 pitcher if he accepts this challenge.

This stuff is normal.  Swampboy hit it out of the park with his response.

You want your kids to play on the best team against the best competition possible.  The travel ball world isn't for everyone - stiff competition, not much equity in what you pay vs. how much you play.  If you are pushing yourself you get a constant, slightly uncomfortable feeling about your value to a team and that isn't necessarily a bad thing.  Its life. 

Generally every time my oldest son has been asked to guest play he has been 3,4 or 5...if you aren't going to hit him in the middle of the line why have him? I never asked for anything.

Concur with many of the others.  If the sub is brought in the expectation of the sub should be to play. Also, as you progress through HS travel ball, expect the roster to grow.  12 kids at a tourney on an HS roster is almost unheard of.  I would expect closer to 18.  15U can be a little strange as your just getting used to the difference between lower level travel ball and HS.

I would suggest having a very casual non-agressive talk with the HC (or the person who runs the program) and ask him to help set your expectations for the team.  Is this a team that is going to do everything it can to win.  If so then expect them to keep bringing players in.  Is the team setup to provide even playing time to everyone as they have paid to play on the team.  Is it a team that is built for college/pro recruiting.  There is a big difference between a normal travel team and a program that is built to put kids in college at the national level.  You have a right to know the philosophy of the team as you have paid your money, but don't expect to change the philosophy because you paid your money.

I formed/managed/coached a team for 2 years (15U and 16U).  We had a roster of 12 or 13 in most cases, though we did have 6 or 7 guys who could pitch and play positions/bat. We were probably the most versatile team I've ever seen.....heck,  we had 4 different kids that we were comfortable with playing SS.  Our kids knew plenty of other kids who were always willing to play with us if needed (we were pretty good and played good tourneys) so we never felt like we needed to roster more.  We never needed a sub position player in the 2 years, but did use 7 or 8 substitute pitchers at times.....a 5-6 game tourney would use up guys pretty quickly lol.   The sub pitcher was always a starter....came in threw one game and then either 1) hung out at the hotel for the weekend with us or 2) headed home. 

With regard to the OP, what position did the sub play?  What position(s) were the guys missing? 

joes87 posted:

Concur with many of the others.  If the sub is brought in the expectation of the sub should be to play. Also, as you progress through HS travel ball, expect the roster to grow.  12 kids at a tourney on an HS roster is almost unheard of.  I would expect closer to 18.  15U can be a little strange as your just getting used to the difference between lower level travel ball and HS.

I would suggest having a very casual non-agressive talk with the HC (or the person who runs the program) and ask him to help set your expectations for the team.  Is this a team that is going to do everything it can to win.  If so then expect them to keep bringing players in.  Is the team setup to provide even playing time to everyone as they have paid to play on the team.  Is it a team that is built for college/pro recruiting.  There is a big difference between a normal travel team and a program that is built to put kids in college at the national level.  You have a right to know the philosophy of the team as you have paid your money, but don't expect to change the philosophy because you paid your money.

I would also suggest that this is something that should have been questioned by parents.....or brought up by the team organizers before a kid committed to a team and paid his fee.   We were very clear.....even went so far as to put it in writing.  We didn't have to, but felt it was better to be up front....and it worked out well.  No issues in 2 summers and 8-10 kids who played for us for all or part of those 2 years are playing college baseball.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

joes87 posted:

Concur with many of the others.  If the sub is brought in the expectation of the sub should be to play. Also, as you progress through HS travel ball, expect the roster to grow.  12 kids at a tourney on an HS roster is almost unheard of.  I would expect closer to 18.  15U can be a little strange as your just getting used to the difference between lower level travel ball and HS.

I would suggest having a very casual non-agressive talk with the HC (or the person who runs the program) and ask him to help set your expectations for the team.  Is this a team that is going to do everything it can to win.  If so then expect them to keep bringing players in.  Is the team setup to provide even playing time to everyone as they have paid to play on the team.  Is it a team that is built for college/pro recruiting.  There is a big difference between a normal travel team and a program that is built to put kids in college at the national level.  You have a right to know the philosophy of the team as you have paid your money, but don't expect to change the philosophy because you paid your money.

I would also suggest that this is something that should have been questioned by parents.....or brought up by the team organizers before a kid committed to a team and paid his fee.   We were very clear.....even went so far as to put it in writing.  We didn't have to, but felt it was better to be up front....and it worked out well.  No issues in 2 summers and 8-10 kids who played for us for all or part of those 2 years are playing college baseball.

100% agreed, many folks just sign on to play travel ball without finding out how the team/program operates.  This should really be one of the first questions a parent asks.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

joes87 posted:

Concur with many of the others.  If the sub is brought in the expectation of the sub should be to play. Also, as you progress through HS travel ball, expect the roster to grow.  12 kids at a tourney on an HS roster is almost unheard of.  I would expect closer to 18.  15U can be a little strange as your just getting used to the difference between lower level travel ball and HS.

I would suggest having a very casual non-agressive talk with the HC (or the person who runs the program) and ask him to help set your expectations for the team.  Is this a team that is going to do everything it can to win.  If so then expect them to keep bringing players in.  Is the team setup to provide even playing time to everyone as they have paid to play on the team.  Is it a team that is built for college/pro recruiting.  There is a big difference between a normal travel team and a program that is built to put kids in college at the national level.  You have a right to know the philosophy of the team as you have paid your money, but don't expect to change the philosophy because you paid your money.

I would also suggest that this is something that should have been questioned by parents.....or brought up by the team organizers before a kid committed to a team and paid his fee.   We were very clear.....even went so far as to put it in writing.  We didn't have to, but felt it was better to be up front....and it worked out well.  No issues in 2 summers and 8-10 kids who played for us for all or part of those 2 years are playing college baseball.

Depends on the team/program.  There are many programs out there in which no explanation about goals/expectations/playing time is necessary, whatsoever.  Both of ours sons played in such a program.  Never a need to discuss any of this.

If its a home grown team, then setting expectations is probably a good idea.

I'm in the same area as PlayWithEffort.  Having less than 15 on a 15u team is rare in our area...but subbing is rampant. 

This happens on my son's team often, yes, I think some of his playing time has been given to the subs, but I also know that one of the subs joined our team full time.  He's a good player, and a good addition, so if my son needed to loose some innings so that kid could show off his stuff that's okay with me because it makes the team better.

The days of my kid playing 80-100% of every game are over.  It will never be that way again, and it is the same for your son. If I were in your shoes I would try to figure out what my kid wanted out of baseball and if it is to play every inning that is fine, but he will need to switch to a lower level team and not expect that possibility in high school and or college.

NTGSon was asked to sub as a 14U pitcher for a national program at 14U WWBA....he went and ended up playing for that program until the end of his HS years. But as a 15 and 16 and 17 he found himself playing almost every inning in the OF because his coaches loved him there. Not until early July of the summer of his rising senior year did he get enough innings to be seen against top flite competition and be recruited as a pitcher. It wasn't frustrating for him because he was playing and playing very well, but the PO's on the squad got the bulk of the innings and only when they were 'committed' did he have the mound time. It all worked out, as he committed in late August as a PO for a mid-major D1 where he's now immensely happy.

One thing about baseball is that it is a skill sport made up of individuals.  So it readily allows "interchangeable" players.  Unlike football, with a complete playbook, and even basketball which you need to play together to get better as a team.  So I think baseball lacks some of the idealism of the "team" and teammates, etc.  You can essentially bring in a complete stranger and have him up and running in an hour or two.  That can rub those of us who came up in other sports wrong.