Travel vs. HS

quote:

We can go on and on with this topic forever and there will never be a winner to this debate. But there will be a loser, the kids that are put in the middle every summer. Everyone needs to wake up and put the kids first before they’re own agendas.

Is this "kids" as in the individual all-star or is it "kids" as in the TEAM? Last I checked baseball was a TEAM sport.

Ya the IHSA allows you to play in the summer if you want and thats about as far as it goes. They don't organize or sanction any of the events or provide any awards. Again point us to the section on the IHSA website showing summer records results champions etc. We can debate the meanings of the words in the IHSA's by-laws all day. Anyways CoachIU26 stated that the summer league IS NOT sanctioned by the IHSA, it is sanctioned by the IHSBCA. Why did he say this?

quote:

The problem seems to be with the HS Coach who wants the kids to play only for them, but then don't back it up with running the program in a way that would benefit the kid. Any coach that tries to stop "his" players from playing elsewhere in the summer is putting his ego and himself ahead of the kid.

Fastball-

Well said.

Call me curious because I only know what my kids have experienced, but how many h.s. summer teams have official "practices" once they start playing in the summer?

If the team doesn't have any practices & the kid is not getting outside instruction, there where is the "coaching" going on?

Playing is important but if you are doing something wrong and no one is helping you fix a bad habit then you are just going to make it harder to correct the problem down the road. So then we wait until the end of February - a month before the season starts?

quote:

Originally posted by Playball2:
Why are you in denial of the fact that the IHSA recognizes the summer season as an official sport.

Hmmm...can't find anything on the IHSA website pertaining to summer ball. No schedules, no results, no nothing. In fact, all I see listed are the 35 recognized fall, winter, and spring sports and activities. I also wonder how an official IHSA sport would allow for purely voluntary participation and attendance. Perhaps you can guide me through my ignorance - or denial as you put it.

Coach B25-explanation-I was trying to convey a point that our HS coaches-OUR coaches-do not give any credit to travel ball-in fact they openly deny that travel ball is in no way as competitive as HS-I heard this one with my own ears.

Point-Where do SOME of these coaches think these kids learn thier skills from? They dont just show up freshman year and bam-they are ball players..definately not because anything OUR program does-thats my point..I know-I have an issue with OUR program and that will be addressed.I was merely trying to see if anyone else has the same nonsense in thier program..

As far as approaching OUR staff as a previous poster suggested-they made that perfectly clear that THEY do not want ANYTHING to do with parents. Our kids are told this is forbidden.

These guys have huge ego problems and yes, just because I/We are parents does not mean we do not know anything about the game or how to manage people.

Ok folks, Blast away...

dacoach1,
If you stay with the facts, the rules of your Ill. High School Athletic governing board, you have NO problem. I'm in Texas (and a mom!!) & found the rules, for crying out loud!
Stay out of the personalities, stay out of the gossip, stay out of the ego issues.
Stick to task...that being that YOU , as a parent & tax payer (who pays all teachers/coaches/ administrators/etc salaries), you have CHOICE. Your son has choice.
Simply explain to coach that your son has a committment to uphold. Primarily, to become the best ball player he can be, so that he will make a more significant contribution to his TEAM, when the time comes (next season).
Be part of the solution...be part of Coaches success next season...& don't waste time (especially your son's) on arguing/debating about someone else's ego problem.
Refer to the rules, if Coach causes any rattling...just send a letter, and cc the AD ahead of time...
Something like...
"In accordance with rules 3.151 & 3.152, my son, Bobby Bomb-Dropper, will be playing with Team Terrific. His schedule is enclosed...."

We have similar issues at some schools down here. But things are changing...in fact, Travel ball is getting a little "watered down", so to speak.
What surprises me, is that your coaches are allowed to instruct/coach players within their own district...That is a huge NO-NO in Texas...So, they get a "player dad" to be on the field. Coach makes out lineup, positions players, has certain players start, etc...all by "remote control", so as to avoid those UIL "eyes" that tend to pop up from time to time...

Baseballmom,

You've been a great help with this problem.

Now, when are you going to start writing about some great Texas brisket??

From Websters

Main Entry: sanction
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): sanc·tioned; sanc·tion·ing \-sh(ə-)niŋ\
Date: 1778
1 : to make valid or binding usually by a formal procedure (as ratification)
2 : to give effective or authoritative approval or consent to

Bravescoach/Playdog don't want you to get caught up in the symantic or even the syntax of the word so thought you would like it defined by webster (he is kind of an expert in this field), notice no need to provide scores for the validity of the event, assigning 3.152 is effective, authoritative and gives consent to the event. Not sure why there is such a great need for either side to demonstrate it's validity. One thing I am positive of, I had very little to do with the genetic make-up of any of the kids I coach.

nc42dad. I am not high on fall baseball for a couple of reasons. 1st and foremost (most) of the fall leagues are very watered down talent wise and to be honest their is very little intensity in these games.
Now I understand their are the elite teams that play good competition and in that case I think it can be beneficial but on average alot of the leagues are weak. The other reason is based on many years of experience where I have found that kids who are in the competitive arena year round exp. Football, Basketball, and Baseball vary rarely make mistakes in pressure situations. They are "gamers". They have had a well rounded athletic experience which lets them handle tough situations better than the kid that specializes in baseball. Their are exceptions to this rule but I have found it to be true over and over in my 27 years of coaching. I will take a 3 sport athlete over a baseball only athlete any day. I remember playing belvidere years ago in a baseball game and their shortstop was the quarterback on a state championship football team that ran a no-huddle/ triple option offense, wrestled in the winter which is the truest character building sport their is ( who can you blame other than yourself when you get beat) "very tough for many kids to handle" and was their starting shortstop. I knew that I did not want the ball hit to that kid with the game on the line. I knew he would make the play and more importantly he knew he would make the play as well. I guess fall baseball would be beneficial to the kid who cant play another sport but it is my preference for my kids to play other sports and thats what I encourage. Its just my philosophy. Kids are going to choose the route that is best for them and I will support them either way.

GBS25

Thanks Coach! Appreciate the input.

I tend to be a fan of it but I do understand all your points.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachIU26:

Also to clear up a few IHSA rules and regulations, even though there is no summer state tournament sanctioned by the IHSA (it is sanctioned by the coaches association) the summer season still falls under the baseball calendar. The baseball calendar continues into the fall as well.

There is a big difference between them allowing you to play, and them participating as an organizer or sponsor of your event which they are neither. You got thrown under the bus Moe.

One more time, please point me to the sight on IHSA's website where there is anything about regional hosts teams at the regionals records runner-ups champions awards ANYTHING. And if it isn't there why not?

Say hello to Merriam Webster Larry Curly and Shemp for me ... knuck knuck knuck knuck.

You got to be kidding me and you wonder why coaches are criticized for their inability to communicate to parents. You only see or hear what you want. You have one agenda.

Somebody call a doctor quick. Is that the pot calling the kettle black or what.

Whether johnny wants to lace em up and get after it in the summer with his high school team and his travel team and his neighbors team because they need to pick up players cause their short, that is their right.

Its their right as a young man that lives in America to play our game. You've thrown out your resume plenty of times on this site you've played lots of ball. You know that the day is going to come when every single one of these kids are going to have to hang it up.

The fact that there are coaches out there that wont let them play outside their school team durring the summer or threaten that they will be benched in the spring if they do, is PATHETIC.

No body is raining on your parade during the spring. Share it in the summer.

Is this coach a member of your association? Look at a previous post from the coach where he gives kudos to two schools in the spring. Does your organization condone this behaviour from your coaches? What does your organization do do you have bylaws and rules of behaviour for your members. If this comment was true is that ok with the IHSBCA your a board member let us know.

Let the kids PLAY.

I've heard just about 98% postive things about Playball2 and the way he coaches and runs his program. Add another 1% for loyalty...in this case to his fellow professionals.

I've said before though, playball2.......not all your fellows are as concerned about the kids who happen to be baseball players at the school where they coach, at least when it comes to reaching their zenith as a player.

IMHO, it is great when a kid wants to play for his HS in the summer....but to say he is obligated to be there all summer when he could be playing more challenging ball (certainly not all kids) elsewhere he ought to. I have real mixed feelings about having a kid pitch in summer games when there were literally 10 errors or more. There are some summer games that are just terrible baseball. For a kid who didn't get on the field in the spring it doesn't matter...he gets to play which is wonderful. But for a kid who is an outstanding player wishing to improve or be seen he has to go elsewhere.

I think that those who are questioning the "official" nature of The IHSCA Summer Playoffs are correct in the sense that they are no more official than any number of baseball tournaments played throughout the country. They are just as "sanctioned" by The IHSA as The IHSCA Tourney. I think in their not always present wisdom, The IHSA made such rules with the intent of giving the kids a chance to play for someone other than their HS Coach. That said, in my pefect world these kids ought to be in the IHSCA Tourney for their school.

fastballdad, I know where your coming from and i would say half of my kids play on the travel circuit in the summer. I do not schedule many games on the weekends during the summer because of this. However, you can't paint every situation with the same brush. We have a pretty impressive list at OPRF where kids have gone on to play at the major D1 schools. Half of that group played travel baseball and half did not. I encourage the kids to find a place to play to continue working on thier game. I talk on a regular basis with guys like Bill Copp about how they are playing for them, the effort they are giving with the travel team and so on. I enjoy hearing from the travel coach about the progress each one is making. But I also understand there are many variables that go into being seen and playing at the next level. There is no holy grail on getting that college scholarship. I get frustrated when I read how people think that there is a right process and a wrong process. There is nothing farther from the truth. Before you get you gloves on, I support my kids playing travel ball, but I am also very lucky with which teams the kids play for. They do a wonderful job.

quote:

Originally posted by itsrosy:
Baseballmom,

You've been a great help with this problem.

Now, when are you going to start writing about some great Texas brisket??

one or 2 places cover the market on brisket...
Sonny Bryan's & Bodacious barbeque, both in & around the DFW area.
Another that is really good is Rudy's!, located in service stations, along I-35 South, & I-10 between San Antonio & Houston.
For the absolute best jerky in the USA, go to Woody's in Centerville Tx, off I-45, on the way to Houston. They have mail order or online, so look them up! Teryaki is my son's favorte. I like the peppered jerky.

OK, there's the bbq update...now yall get back to baseball players being able to play on travel teams, and those coaches who support & encourage their players to do so!!

quote:

I have real mixed feelings about having a kid pitch in summer games when there were literally 10 errors or more.

How many errors were in the All-Star game the other night? And these were the "best" players in all of baseball??

There is no doubt that playing travel makes our Northern USA players better. The quality of baseball in Illinois has improved markedly because of the travel phenom. These kids get to see what actually IS possible and pretty soon after they realize that they can compete with these guys.

Don't a lot of these coaches understand also that while the travelers are on the road that it gives the secondary players a chance to get quality, extended field time? How important is that? Way!

Winning it all in the summer is a silly goal..it's game practice time and that's what they should be doing..working on plays, and encouraging the postitions and pitchers to take chances with their game.

It irks me to see these particular coaches who try to keep these players for summer HS ball..selfish, ego driven, and wrong. Threatening them with being benched is pathetic, hard to believe that grown men would stoop to such childsih and illegal tactic. Summer is summer, let em run and play where they want.

I'll take some of that brisket, glass of beer please.

And, for the folks that believe that Travel ball is a "me" thing where it's all about individual play? I think that's mostly bs.

Seen many summer travel teams develop over the years and they have ALL gone about the process of gelling and playing as a team the same way it happens with a high school team. It's a fairly natural and beautiful process with a bunch boys coached properly...i'll say that again..coached properly.

Once in a while you get a character on a team who poisons the atmosphere...any good coach will squash that fast. In just about every instance I've witnessed and been a part of, those issues have disappeared quickly. The same thing happens on some high school teams.

I think the notion of travel ball being about "individual play", the superstar ego thing, is tossed around to much. I suspect that it's a cop out coming from, perhaps, parents who's kid might not be playing enough (in their eyes). Seen and heard that a million times and most of the time that's the source.

I have to second baseballmoms choices!

Woody's by far the best jerky, the best selection, and the best pickled vegies and smoked cheeses. conveiently located on both sides of the highway, at the half way point between Dallas and Houston. I shy away from their hot food now after a colon blow episode on the side of the highway on one of my last trips through.

Rudy's. Can't say enough good things about this place. Great for after game meals. You pay for your meal at the counter like a pizza place. (no splitting checks) Cold LONE STAR Beer. Bench seating, with room for a whole team at a table. Your cut of choice on the brisket. Finger lickin' good ribs, chicken and sausage. Nice tangy BBQ sauce. Great slaw, or beans, macs & cheese, or whatever you want. The service is faster than any fast food chain eatery. The Round Rock location is my favorite.

As for the "coaching" part of things...

There were about three things I would have liked my son to work on this summer. You know, to get better.

Zip, zero, nodda. So what is summer for then? Winning or getting better?

Shifting between high school/travel never allows you to work on anything. And I will say this as clear as day, his travel coaches know more about pitching than his high school guys. What was the point of doing both again?

Thank heaven, my kid is a senior and I don't have to go thru this again. Maybe next summer we can work on those 3 things!!!

quote:

Originally posted by nc42dad:
As for the "coaching" part of things...

There were about three things I would have liked my son to work on this summer. You know, to get better.

Zip, zero, nodda. So what is summer for then? Winning or getting better?

Shifting between high school/travel never allows you to work on anything. And I will say this as clear as day, his travel coaches know more about pitching than his high school guys. What was the point of doing both again?

Thank heaven, my kid is a senior and I don't have to go thru this again. Maybe next summer we can work on those 3 things!!!

Despite the 90+ degree days, you're going to miss it. Well, not seeing me as been often classified as a good thing.

baseballmom and Texas Crude,

Thanks for the barbeque review. Sure goes great with baseball!

UK-

It just hasn't been the same without you and that 45 degree weather around.

quote:

Its their right as a young man that lives in America to play our game. You've thrown out your resume plenty of times on this site you've played lots of ball. You know that the day is going to come when every single one of these kids are going to have to hang it up.

Playdog, to debate, it is not a right it is a privilege, that is exactly what I am talking about this whole travel phenomenon is directly related to those words, unequivically. To be selected to play at a higher level was a privelege, some players were just better. No longer the case and certainly you can agree with that. Tell me with great honesty how many times do you recognize the player who's skills just do not match up. I am not sure what you mean about my resume being thrown out, I don't believe I ever have, if I had post it, however I do not hide behind my screen name, it is there on my profile. My point is simple I have no issue with kids playing at a level that is appropriate for their development both mentally and physically. I can make an objective opinion on players that takes that in account. I am aware that it may not be what they want to hear, however I am not afraid to leave that out there, it is nothing more than opinion based on experience. Up to this point I have been right alot more that I have been wrong when evaluating the talent of the players in my program. Take it for what is worth. As far as the IHSBCA we express routinely that coaches are to adhere to the guidelines presented by the IHSA. Baseball in Illinois is in a good place and the IHSA with the exception of specific Districts in California, Illinois is the only association that sanctions three seasons for baseball (regardless of posted scores, records or tournaments).

Coho, the travel experience is only one of many reasons why baseball has improved in illinois. Most notably indoor facilities making year round conditioning, practice, instruction and development more common place then ever before. Your point about secondary players developing has been belabored. Lastly if winning in the summer is silly than it is for both entities not just one.

quote:

And, for the folks that believe that Travel ball is a "me" thing where it's all about individual play? I think that's mostly bs.

Coho, this site is riddled with the notion of travel ball exposure. Exposure is not a team concept. That is reality. Travel ball is the vehicle that can lead to the greater exposure. I understand that. I also understand with the fact that there are coaches who do a tremendous job of developing a team concept and speak about how the individual grows as the team competes as one. I get it. Please travel coaches there is no need to convince me that you are trying to play a team game. But the motivation behind some of my players who have been fortunate enough to play on elite level travel teams have been individualized. Period. Trust me these are highly recognized programs. With coaches who have drawn favorable praise and notariety. But on an individual basis when I spoke my players over the years as to why they would drive great lengths to be part of programs with reputable names, there response is very simple, individual exposure. Again this is relative to my situation. However, speaking with same individuals about there goals for the HS season, it is always been the same. State Championship. I gather, and again it is my opinion based on my experiences, that it is spoken in that fashion because it is relative to what the goal is.

I would like to see a comparison of the use of the sacrafice bunt in HS vs. Travel? Again I am not saying it is not used in travel. I would just like to see a comparison. To me there is no more selfless play in the game than the sac bunt. So I would just like to see a comparison.

quote:

Originally posted by Playball2:
"I am not sure what you mean about my resume being thrown out"

It was a compliment you've played lots of ball.

quote:

Originally posted by Playball2:
"But the motivation behind some of my players who have been fortunate enough to play on elite level travel teams have been individualized. Period. Trust me these are highly recognized programs. With coaches who have drawn favorable praise and notariety. But on an individual basis when I spoke my players over the years as to why they would drive great lengths to be part of programs with reputable names, there response is very simple, individual exposure."

You are so irrational that I find myslef staring at the screen without knowing what to write.

This is not my rationale, so I am not sure how I can be irrational. This is strictly from the experiences I have encountered. I don't want you to think that I dislike travel ball, because I don't. I had the pleasure to coach a 13&14 year old team and it was a great experience.

Any thoughts on a high school pitcher throwing 13 innings this week mon-thurs? 7 on MOn, 3 on wed and 3 thurs.

Lineshot-

Hang them by their ......

Overuse of pitchers has always been a big beef of mine. Throwing pitchers 1 inning to close a game the day before a start (they call it a bullpen), pitch counts over 120, only 2 or three days rest between starts (to get an extra start), coaches telling kids "how their arms feel," rushing kids back from injury....

We've been pretty lucky here for the most part but what I have seen elsewhere over the years, really concerns me. It always come down to someone's desire to "win."

I am with you nc, just thought I would throw it out there for the discussion. I think the quote in the paper is he is a "horse"

Kind of shows you the average person doesn't understand...

Read the book "Saving the pitcher."

Sometimes it isn't the coach who makes the kid do that either. Often times it is the kid who forces the coach's hand. IMO Coach has to be the one to say no!

A few years back one of the East Cobb travel teams won their bracket but went home. Reason? They were out of pitching. You gotta respect a program that does that!

Even a horse can break down.

Some of this talk is pure nonsense. Some of the worst baseball i have seen was played this summer in the high school summer league ...sorry but it is true based on what i witnessed . Absolutely , unequivically doesnt even come close to the level , brand ---whatever word you want to use----of travel ball . Made me truly appreciate the level of play i was watching on the weekends . As far as i know baseball is somewhat of an individual sport last i checked. And yes..the sac bunt is still employed every now and then when situation dictates.

Oddly enough Sulli, I was thinking the same thing watching some of the summer travel tournaments I was at. Pitcher as the cut-off, not backing up first baseman never straying too far from 1st base.

quote:

I would like to see a comparison of the use of the sacrafice bunt in HS vs. Travel? Again I am not saying it is not used in travel. I would just like to see a comparison.

Sulli I will mark you down for one know and then for the sac bunt comparison.

No comment from any high school coach on the 13 innings pitched from mon -thurs? Not trying to be a smart aleck, just looking for your thoughts as a high school coach.

What are the details of his appearances?

7 innings on mon, closed 3 iniings on wed and closed 3 innings on thurs, sounds like he was in or the team was in trouble as the bags were loaded a few times and had to work out of it.

Don't have pitch counts.