The "details" should have nothing to do with it. The "pitch count" should have nothing to do with it. Anyone that would throw a kid 3 innings, back to back days, after having thrown him 7 innings earlier in the week, should be looking for a new job.
Totally unacceptable. Period. No one should even be trying to defend that one.
Nc, trust me I was not trying to defend this one, just answering the question. I only restated the post since I did not see any of the coaches have any comment on the subject.
If the information is true it would be very hard to defend those decisions.
My son plays for the Norwood Blues. The one complaint I have is that we are not in enough "exposure" tournaments.
Coach Pildes is a high school coach (Taft) that doesn't play summer ball. One thing the players DO learn is how to play team baseball. Yes they bunt (maybe too much for my taste), they learn which base to back up, when and why, when to hit behind the runner, and pitchers are NEVER abused.
You can't say "travel this and high school that". It totally depends on the coach and program.
My son also is lucky to have Coach Ron Zagorski (Illinois Hall of Fame Coach and only person to have won a State Championship as Head Coach, assitant coach and player) run the summer program for the high school.
These two men know and love baseball, and do it for the right reasons. To teach and help the kids. They also had each other's schedule so my kid was used nad not abused.
It can work, it depends on the people involved.
Coach Pildes is a high school coach (Taft) that doesn't play summer ball. One thing the players DO learn is how to play team baseball. Yes they bunt (maybe too much for my taste), they learn which base to back up, when and why, when to hit behind the runner, and pitchers are NEVER abused.
You can't say "travel this and high school that". It totally depends on the coach and program.
My son also is lucky to have Coach Ron Zagorski (Illinois Hall of Fame Coach and only person to have won a State Championship as Head Coach, assitant coach and player) run the summer program for the high school.
These two men know and love baseball, and do it for the right reasons. To teach and help the kids. They also had each other's schedule so my kid was used nad not abused.
It can work, it depends on the people involved.
Lineshot-
I understand you aren't defending it, just putting it on the table.
When I read about the epidemic of 14 year olds getting Tommy John surgery the topic really bothers me. My kid had a 6 inning no hitter going in pro ball, & they pulled him. Do you think that would happen in college? high school? Doubt it.
But yet, I am tagged the bad guy becuse I look out for my kid's arm? It happened in travel years ago - we left the team. When it happens in high school(not us)what is your option there??
As for the travel/high school discussion, one place I have choice, the other one I don't. Period.
I understand you aren't defending it, just putting it on the table.
When I read about the epidemic of 14 year olds getting Tommy John surgery the topic really bothers me. My kid had a 6 inning no hitter going in pro ball, & they pulled him. Do you think that would happen in college? high school? Doubt it.
But yet, I am tagged the bad guy becuse I look out for my kid's arm? It happened in travel years ago - we left the team. When it happens in high school(not us)what is your option there??
As for the travel/high school discussion, one place I have choice, the other one I don't. Period.
Did you ever wonder why pitchers back in the 60's and 70's could go 9 innings and come back even on 3 days rest sometimes and do it again? Maybe it's because they didn't throw all fall and winter and didnt go to showcase camps / lessons every other week as well. Why do we ask kids to constantly put wear and tear on their arms year round? It's not just pitch counts and overuse during the season. It's the yearly workload.
I'll bet the kid who would spend the off-season doing core work and proper weight lifting would benefit as much or more than the kid who constantly breaks his arm down throwing off a mound. I can understand a little long toss or some flat ground work but why have a kid throw off the mound in December? I blame college coaches as well on this. They should know better. One of my kids 2 years ago during the basketball season visited a certain D1 school and hadn't been throwing during the winter. They put him through a stretch band workout, had him throw 45 pitches on the side, then put him in a batting cage and had him throw another 40 pitches live to some campers. Thats 80 pitches! I look at some of our top prospects every year and wonder how many of them have pushed themselves too hard to impress some college guy who probably has already seen him 4-5 times already. If a kid injures himself throwing in a game could he have injured himself months before and this particular game was the straw that broke the camels back. In our quest do get "the scholarship" lets remember that with proper training our kids better days should be in front of them. Sorry for the rant.
I'll bet the kid who would spend the off-season doing core work and proper weight lifting would benefit as much or more than the kid who constantly breaks his arm down throwing off a mound. I can understand a little long toss or some flat ground work but why have a kid throw off the mound in December? I blame college coaches as well on this. They should know better. One of my kids 2 years ago during the basketball season visited a certain D1 school and hadn't been throwing during the winter. They put him through a stretch band workout, had him throw 45 pitches on the side, then put him in a batting cage and had him throw another 40 pitches live to some campers. Thats 80 pitches! I look at some of our top prospects every year and wonder how many of them have pushed themselves too hard to impress some college guy who probably has already seen him 4-5 times already. If a kid injures himself throwing in a game could he have injured himself months before and this particular game was the straw that broke the camels back. In our quest do get "the scholarship" lets remember that with proper training our kids better days should be in front of them. Sorry for the rant.
Did you ever wonder why pitchers back in the 60's and 70's could go 9 innings and come back even on 3 days rest sometimes and do it again? Maybe it's because they didn't throw all fall and winter and didnt go to showcase camps / lessons every other week as well. Why do we ask kids to constantly put wear and tear on their arms year round? It's not just pitch counts and overuse during the season. It's the yearly workload.
This is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read on this message board. How dare you as a H.S. coach and I assume educator compare today’s H.S. athletes with MLB pitchers from 4 decades ago? And maybe that is what is wrong with H.S. baseball. That a H.S. coach thinks that a kid can go out and pitch every three days because he only has one or two pitchers that can get the job done to get his program a win.
And to blame a kid for having a sore arm because he works hard on his game during the off-season is total **** and a copout because he is being overused in the spring or summer. I guess you as a H.S. coach would rather have JOEY FOOTBALL or JOEY MY BROTHER PLAYED FOR YOU pick up their gloves and dust them off the night before try-outs.
And then to blame the college coaches, I have seen this summer H.S. coaches have a kid throw 80-90 pitch bullpen’s so that kid could not throw on the weekend for whoever team he plays for. If you want to live in the 60”s then let’s start by adjusting the salaries of the H.S. coaches. JMO Have a nice day
This is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read on this message board. How dare you as a H.S. coach and I assume educator compare today’s H.S. athletes with MLB pitchers from 4 decades ago? And maybe that is what is wrong with H.S. baseball. That a H.S. coach thinks that a kid can go out and pitch every three days because he only has one or two pitchers that can get the job done to get his program a win.
And to blame a kid for having a sore arm because he works hard on his game during the off-season is total **** and a copout because he is being overused in the spring or summer. I guess you as a H.S. coach would rather have JOEY FOOTBALL or JOEY MY BROTHER PLAYED FOR YOU pick up their gloves and dust them off the night before try-outs.
And then to blame the college coaches, I have seen this summer H.S. coaches have a kid throw 80-90 pitch bullpen’s so that kid could not throw on the weekend for whoever team he plays for. If you want to live in the 60”s then let’s start by adjusting the salaries of the H.S. coaches. JMO Have a nice day
I replied in an earlier post that if that coach overused the athlete by throwing him 3 times and all those innings that week he was wrong. I was responding to the post about 14 yr olds having Tommy John surgery. And who is blaming a kid? I merely said you don't have to throw off a mound 12 months out of the year to be a better pitcher. Instead of getting all ****y with me why dont you get some stones and approach that coach that had that the kid throw an 80-90 pitch bullpen. I'm not defending anyone here. That's not why I made that post. I just think in some instances their are better ways to work on your game. I resent the fact that you want to belittle all HS coaches because of a couple lousy ones you have unfortunately experienced. And for the record I do not throw my pitchers on 3 days rest and never have. How you can get that message from my statement is way off base. You are very good at twisting words from a previous post to make it deliver a message that it was not intended to. The point of the paragraph was to question the number of showcase camps and lessons. My kids throw in the off season to get ready for the season. They do not just dust off the gloves in the spring. But I don't recommend that they do alot of throwing off the mound which was my main point. If you dont agree with that philosophy so be it but don't accuse me of blaming a kid for working on his game. That wasnt the purpose of the post.
And for the record I have never had a pitcher injure his arm / shoulder in my 27 years of coaching.
quote:salaries of the H.S. coaches
Are we full time employees? I know it is a fulltime job.
High school coaches get paid for coaching? Wow..
They sure don't make what most of them are worth that's for sure.
They sure don't make what most of them are worth that's for sure.
quote:How dare you as a H.S. coach and I assume educator compare today’s H.S. athletes with MLB pitchers from 4 decades ago?
CSG I too agree with this statement, not too sure why you are so offended by the comparison, it's a reality of the times, pitchers are being asked to max effort at events through february. Remember when we thought that playing year round was to the advantage of the southern and west coast. GBS 25 you don't even have to go back that far, just look at the bounce back of kids in the last decade. Kids are bigger, faster, stronger with an inability to recover.
quote:pitchers are being asked to max effort at events
Playball- I think you hit the nail on the head! This is probably at the root of why their are so many arm injuries. Back in my day the word "radar gun" did not exist. Throwing hard was in large part the opinion of the hitter or the pitcher. Without a radar gun do you think you can tell the difference bewteen 86 mph vs. 88 mph? I can't. Recruiters too often rely on the numbers because it is something tangible.
Advise from here would be to rest the arm at least two months in the winter. I have never cared what my kids throw (mph) in February & for those who do, you are asking for trouble IMO.
Long toss only during the winter for all pitchers/players...High and feel free to bounce it in. Period. It's crazy to work pitchers out all winter...young arms till 21..seriously.
Build arm strength slowly and gently over the winter so the anatomy is able and accustomed to recovering and adjusting EASILY after each workout.
I would never expect or WANT any pitcher to be at full strength and full-out game for the first game of the year..plenty of time to find that peak.
Way to many folks obsessed with coming out of the gate in high gear with a bunch of pitchers who are at peak game...totally wrong approach to building your squad each year. Get your hitters cranking and your defense ready, let the pitchers find their groove.
The radar gun...i laugh at those things. Once you have decent fastball the key to the whole thing is keeping the hitters off balance and understanding how to establish patterns and when to break the pattern with the proper pitch. The human brain has an incredibly difficult time making the neccesary adjustment to pitches that jump out of those established patterns..low and away fast ball, low and away slider..the fastball in and up after that starts to look like a meatball..it's all about control once you have that servicable fasty. I'm sure EVERYONE knows that..right? Sorry, it's relevant and worth being redundant on the point.
How many times have you heard this said...
"Teach the youngsters how to hit the spots with the fast pitch and how to throw a changeup for a strike"
?
Of course, things get different if you're blowing that constant 95 to 98 mph fastball and hitting decent spots. Those guys are freaks of nature and they get paid well for it...the average pitcher just can't make those kinds of dramatic increases in velocity without trashing their arm. But they certainly can do well if they are taught how to pitch...this is a competetive, strategy oriented concept, picthing..obviously
That freaking one dimensional radar gun thing..way to much emphasis on that and the kids (and parents) get suckered so easily...all that talk of adding 4 or 5 miles an hour to the fasty has ruined many an arm before high school graduation. It has also put some beer money in the pockets of lots of freelance pitching coaches who say they can accomplish this feat...very few can, most cannot. Seen way to many kids who get with some pitching guy over the winter and by spring their arm is wasted...
I know all you guys know this...sorry.
Build arm strength slowly and gently over the winter so the anatomy is able and accustomed to recovering and adjusting EASILY after each workout.
I would never expect or WANT any pitcher to be at full strength and full-out game for the first game of the year..plenty of time to find that peak.
Way to many folks obsessed with coming out of the gate in high gear with a bunch of pitchers who are at peak game...totally wrong approach to building your squad each year. Get your hitters cranking and your defense ready, let the pitchers find their groove.
The radar gun...i laugh at those things. Once you have decent fastball the key to the whole thing is keeping the hitters off balance and understanding how to establish patterns and when to break the pattern with the proper pitch. The human brain has an incredibly difficult time making the neccesary adjustment to pitches that jump out of those established patterns..low and away fast ball, low and away slider..the fastball in and up after that starts to look like a meatball..it's all about control once you have that servicable fasty. I'm sure EVERYONE knows that..right? Sorry, it's relevant and worth being redundant on the point.
How many times have you heard this said...
"Teach the youngsters how to hit the spots with the fast pitch and how to throw a changeup for a strike"
?
Of course, things get different if you're blowing that constant 95 to 98 mph fastball and hitting decent spots. Those guys are freaks of nature and they get paid well for it...the average pitcher just can't make those kinds of dramatic increases in velocity without trashing their arm. But they certainly can do well if they are taught how to pitch...this is a competetive, strategy oriented concept, picthing..obviously
That freaking one dimensional radar gun thing..way to much emphasis on that and the kids (and parents) get suckered so easily...all that talk of adding 4 or 5 miles an hour to the fasty has ruined many an arm before high school graduation. It has also put some beer money in the pockets of lots of freelance pitching coaches who say they can accomplish this feat...very few can, most cannot. Seen way to many kids who get with some pitching guy over the winter and by spring their arm is wasted...
I know all you guys know this...sorry.
Here we go again. Why can't we all just get along.
Here is my 2 cents.
1. There are many great HS and travel coaches. Playball2 and GBS25 are well respected in the hs coaching community. They work hard, get results, and have had some great players over the years.
2. There are many hs and travel coaches that are less than stellar. Not all travel coaches are highly experienced at what they do. I have talked with many that are great people and have dedicated a lot of time helping the kids but are not great baseball coaches. Same can go for some HS coaches.
3. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting the players to work hard in the off season if they have no other sports that they are playing in. We run an off season weight and conditioning program and expect our varsity athletes to attend and to work hard for one hour a day four days a week.
4. Players today are different than players from just a few years ago. When was the last time anyone has seen a group of 10 years olds playing baseball on their own. They don't usually because they are playing 80 scheduled travel games a summer. Baseball has become a job to some of the kids. Yuck! When I was growing up I played any form of baseball possible. Wiffle, running bases, just plain catch, long toss, fast pitch, HR derby, etc. Why don't today's kids get out there in droves?
5. What the heck is it with all of the exposure camps that charge big bucks? Does a kid really need to go to 10 of these during the year and lay out over $1000? What about the scouting services that will charge the same amount or more? Some may argue that their HS coach isn't exposing them enough. That may be true for some but not all hs coaches. If we are talking about getting a chance to play college ball that is one thing, if we are talking about getting baseball scholarship money that is another. There isn't a whole lot of baseball money out there. I have been able to help just about all of my players that had the desire to play at the collegiate level go on to play. This would mean, emails, calls, filling out questionnaires, etc. My advice to players is to go somewhere that they can play, and somewhere that can win.
6. I am getting frustrated at the sheer amount of travel teams out there because some of my players that are devoting their time and more importantly their money would be better served playing and practicing with the HS team all summer. My better kids can benefit, but there are so many travel teams, that even they are getting watered down. Anyone with the money to play will be able to find a team to play on. If a kid doesn't make one team than why not start their own? I am thinking about playing DH's M through W with Th being a day to work with small groups of kids on their individual skills instead of fielding half a team because they are leaving Wed for a tournment. I am in no way knocking some of the elite, but not all travel teams are elite. Not all hs teams (spring or summer) are elite.
Can't we all just meet up one night and have a beer and discuss this situation? I can use one after this long post.
Here is my 2 cents.
1. There are many great HS and travel coaches. Playball2 and GBS25 are well respected in the hs coaching community. They work hard, get results, and have had some great players over the years.
2. There are many hs and travel coaches that are less than stellar. Not all travel coaches are highly experienced at what they do. I have talked with many that are great people and have dedicated a lot of time helping the kids but are not great baseball coaches. Same can go for some HS coaches.
3. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting the players to work hard in the off season if they have no other sports that they are playing in. We run an off season weight and conditioning program and expect our varsity athletes to attend and to work hard for one hour a day four days a week.
4. Players today are different than players from just a few years ago. When was the last time anyone has seen a group of 10 years olds playing baseball on their own. They don't usually because they are playing 80 scheduled travel games a summer. Baseball has become a job to some of the kids. Yuck! When I was growing up I played any form of baseball possible. Wiffle, running bases, just plain catch, long toss, fast pitch, HR derby, etc. Why don't today's kids get out there in droves?
5. What the heck is it with all of the exposure camps that charge big bucks? Does a kid really need to go to 10 of these during the year and lay out over $1000? What about the scouting services that will charge the same amount or more? Some may argue that their HS coach isn't exposing them enough. That may be true for some but not all hs coaches. If we are talking about getting a chance to play college ball that is one thing, if we are talking about getting baseball scholarship money that is another. There isn't a whole lot of baseball money out there. I have been able to help just about all of my players that had the desire to play at the collegiate level go on to play. This would mean, emails, calls, filling out questionnaires, etc. My advice to players is to go somewhere that they can play, and somewhere that can win.
6. I am getting frustrated at the sheer amount of travel teams out there because some of my players that are devoting their time and more importantly their money would be better served playing and practicing with the HS team all summer. My better kids can benefit, but there are so many travel teams, that even they are getting watered down. Anyone with the money to play will be able to find a team to play on. If a kid doesn't make one team than why not start their own? I am thinking about playing DH's M through W with Th being a day to work with small groups of kids on their individual skills instead of fielding half a team because they are leaving Wed for a tournment. I am in no way knocking some of the elite, but not all travel teams are elite. Not all hs teams (spring or summer) are elite.
Can't we all just meet up one night and have a beer and discuss this situation? I can use one after this long post.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Coho:
Way to many folks obsessed with coming out of the gate in high gear with a bunch of pitchers who are at peak game...totally wrong approach to building your squad each year. Get your hitters cranking and your defense ready, let the pitchers find their groove.QUOTE]
Coho - couldn't agree with you more which is another beef I have with a number of HS coaches. March/April pitch counts in the 80's, 90's, and 100's - particularly in 40-degree weather...absurd. Oh, those precious early-season conference games...forget that the kid has a whole summer of meaningful baseball ahead of him. I submit that THAT's the cause of the majority of elbow/arm/shoulder problems.
Way to many folks obsessed with coming out of the gate in high gear with a bunch of pitchers who are at peak game...totally wrong approach to building your squad each year. Get your hitters cranking and your defense ready, let the pitchers find their groove.QUOTE]
Coho - couldn't agree with you more which is another beef I have with a number of HS coaches. March/April pitch counts in the 80's, 90's, and 100's - particularly in 40-degree weather...absurd. Oh, those precious early-season conference games...forget that the kid has a whole summer of meaningful baseball ahead of him. I submit that THAT's the cause of the majority of elbow/arm/shoulder problems.
I don't agree. I believe that if a player is physically ready to compete because of his throwing program, and conditioning that they can throw 80 pitches in their first start.
Injuries occur when a player hasn't committed to a proper program, and proper fundamentals. It is essential to dedicate yourself to these to keep yourself healthy.
Momst HS pitchers aren't waiting until March 1st to throw their first bullpen. We will start our guys out (we chart bullpens) at 30 and add each week until we are up to about 70-80 in a bullpen session. We keep pitch counts and don't over extend pitchers during the year. This can't be said for every coach since I don't know their programs.
Why is this always the coaches' falut? Doesn't the player have a responsibility to talk to the coach during the game to let they coach know how he is feeling? In the same breath a coach should know where their pitchers are with their conditioning and when to leave them in or take them out. It is not 100% on the coaches.
Why is an early season "conference" game not as importantas a summer game? Is the "whole summer" comprised of "meaningful" games? Highly doubtful.
Injuries occur when a player hasn't committed to a proper program, and proper fundamentals. It is essential to dedicate yourself to these to keep yourself healthy.
Momst HS pitchers aren't waiting until March 1st to throw their first bullpen. We will start our guys out (we chart bullpens) at 30 and add each week until we are up to about 70-80 in a bullpen session. We keep pitch counts and don't over extend pitchers during the year. This can't be said for every coach since I don't know their programs.
Why is this always the coaches' falut? Doesn't the player have a responsibility to talk to the coach during the game to let they coach know how he is feeling? In the same breath a coach should know where their pitchers are with their conditioning and when to leave them in or take them out. It is not 100% on the coaches.
Why is an early season "conference" game not as importantas a summer game? Is the "whole summer" comprised of "meaningful" games? Highly doubtful.
You guys bring up a good point which led me to recall an example that might be related. Our ( Notre Dame ) first game of the spring season was against glenbrook north in frigid temps at the end of march . Couldnt have been more than 40 degrees with windy conditions as well . Our coach got our starter out of the game after 5 innings ..meanwhile , GBN pitcher--Mcmahon --stayed in the whole game and threw a no hitter against us . Dont know how many pitches he threw for sure ..im guessing around 80 ...but those of us watching on the sidelines were surprised that he was left in there under those conditions that early in the season . A short time later i had heard that this kid was out for the year with shoulder injury . Wouldnt want to speculate if it was related or not ..but it does make you wonder .
DC33
Who is running the show --head coach or player ??
that is the bottom line IMO
DC33
Who is running the show --head coach or player ??
that is the bottom line IMO
Give me a break. Why is it that when players succeed it is despite the coach and if they fail or are injured it is because of the coach?
Do you feel that there is any responsibility on the part of the player to communicate to the coach during the game? Coaches should read minds now too? I as a coach will not abuse a player for a win. It is not my style, but players should also be responsible for not overworking themselves especially if they are not 100%.
As for the situation you have described about the GBN pitcher. I would have to know more about the situation to comment. If he was at 70 pitches through six vs. 105 makes a big difference. What was his physical conditioning like? Is it possible that he hadn't properly taken care of his body to endure the rigors of pitching? I am unclear. I will say that the first couple of times out my pitchers usually go no more than 4 innings. Even with a no hitter they would have been out of the game before it got to the 7th.
Early non conference games are there to see what you have for the conference season. We get everyone in and all pitchers get to throw. Once we get into conference we base our lineups and pitching based on who we consider is the player that gives us the opportunity to win. In the Upstate 8 we play a 24-25 game conference season and need lots of arms to compete.
All I stated was that the player should communicate and that you cannot put 100% of the blame on the coach for injuries. Just like you cannot give a coach 100% of the credit for a game well played.
That is my bottom line. IMO
Do you feel that there is any responsibility on the part of the player to communicate to the coach during the game? Coaches should read minds now too? I as a coach will not abuse a player for a win. It is not my style, but players should also be responsible for not overworking themselves especially if they are not 100%.
As for the situation you have described about the GBN pitcher. I would have to know more about the situation to comment. If he was at 70 pitches through six vs. 105 makes a big difference. What was his physical conditioning like? Is it possible that he hadn't properly taken care of his body to endure the rigors of pitching? I am unclear. I will say that the first couple of times out my pitchers usually go no more than 4 innings. Even with a no hitter they would have been out of the game before it got to the 7th.
Early non conference games are there to see what you have for the conference season. We get everyone in and all pitchers get to throw. Once we get into conference we base our lineups and pitching based on who we consider is the player that gives us the opportunity to win. In the Upstate 8 we play a 24-25 game conference season and need lots of arms to compete.
All I stated was that the player should communicate and that you cannot put 100% of the blame on the coach for injuries. Just like you cannot give a coach 100% of the credit for a game well played.
That is my bottom line. IMO
quote:Originally posted by DC33:
Why is an early season "conference" game not as importantas a summer game? Is the "whole summer" comprised of "meaningful" games? Highly doubtful.
DC33 - I did not draw any distinction with respect to importance. My point was not jeopardizing a kid's entire season just for the sake of some early season wins under adverse conditions. Said another way, high school coaches need to think beyond the high school season when it comes to the health and well-being of their players...that's all.
Why on earth would a H.S coach want to have his #1 Pitcher ( MCmahon ) possibly jeopordize the rest of his spring and summer season just to toss a non conference no hitter on freaking march 19th with wind and frigid conditions ? If i am the coach , i dont care if the pitcher tells me --im fine -- im taking him out . Yes, it is the coaches responsibility ..no doubt about it...Hes calling the shots ..not the player ..BOTTOM LINE. Its not july 19 --but rather MARCH 19th in chicago ...are you kidding me ?? why should it be up to the player ? The risk is definitely not worth any reward . Why mess with a kids arm in mid march ??Would like to hear from someone who might know more about this situation before commenting any further . Maybe Sparky knows more about it since the kid was suppossed to pitch for the Sparks this summer .
I agree with Sully. What kid who is a competitor will tell a coach he wants to come out of a game? It is the coach's call. They must protect the kid. Kids think they are invincible.
quote:The risk is definitely not worth any reward . Why mess with a kids arm in mid march ??
Hate to throw fuel on the fire however, it has not been proven that the cold weather is a contributor to arm injuries related to the throwing motion. This notion was withdrawn due to insignificant evidence as a viable argument in the restructuring NCAA baseball starting date. Not sure that any risk is worth the reward, how does throwing that same player on the final day of the spring season justify an injury? I know that you are not saying this, so please don't feel like you have to defend. However DC does make a valid point, no matter when the injury occurs the coach is usually the focal point of the blame. Injury to early in the season, games are meaningless. Injury late in the season, threw to many innings up to that point. Sometimes I think we have to remember that pitching is an unnatural motion that creates tremendous torque and pressure on joints and limbs, pitchers are going to break down. Just to illustrate the point I have yet to read about the breakdown of the soft tossing left hander from over use. Usually our response is those kids won't breakdown because they don't throw hard enough. Interpretation they don't create enough force to place the joints in harms way. So those guys can throw everyday? No matter our perception, I believe that everytime a pitcher takes the bump it is anything but a meaningless opportunity and or experience. Predicting throwing injuries are not an exact science. There is more information than ever on the mechanics of throwing, proper warm up, cool down and after care of the throwing arm and kids are still breaking down. Would I as a coach prefer if it were to happen on the last day of spring rather than the first outing? But that doesn't make the injury anymore or less comforting.
Oh, one more thought, remember pitch counts were a product of rehabilitation (UCL recovery, AKA Tommy John), today they are prehabilitative and again offer no significant proof to reduce the chance of injury.
Injuries are the number one reason youth (9-12 years old) pitchers seldom continue pitching past high school. The risk of injury is especially high in this age group due to immature skeletons, poor coordination, improper technique, and coaching. At all levels, the biggest risk factor is "overuse". While injury risk factors can be mitigated, injuries are inherent to pitching. For example, despite access to the best coaches, trainers, and doctors, virtually every MLB pitcher sustains a serious injury at some point in their career.
What can be done to reduce the risk of pitching injuries, especially in young pitchers? The three most important contributors to a pitcher's ability to perform well and stay healthy are pitching mechanics, pitch volume, and pitch type. Pitching mechanics, "proper form", is the same at all levels of competition. That is why it is so important to teach proper pitching and throwing mechanics early. As the level of competition increases, pitchers throw harder-increasing the torque and forces on the throwing arm. Good mechanics will spread the forces more evenly along the kinetic chain (foot to hand). Flaws in the pitching form will put more stress on the joints (shoulder and elbow primarily), causing an injury sooner, rather than later. Because Little Leaguers don't throw very hard (relatively speaking), injuries may not be visible for years. Yet the effects add up and will cause problems eventually. Some studies have reported that 15% of male college students feel their ability to throw in college is hindered or hampered by pain, tenderness, or limitation of movement as a result of their youth baseball pitching.
Injuries are the number one reason youth (9-12 years old) pitchers seldom continue pitching past high school. The risk of injury is especially high in this age group due to immature skeletons, poor coordination, improper technique, and coaching. At all levels, the biggest risk factor is "overuse". While injury risk factors can be mitigated, injuries are inherent to pitching. For example, despite access to the best coaches, trainers, and doctors, virtually every MLB pitcher sustains a serious injury at some point in their career.
What can be done to reduce the risk of pitching injuries, especially in young pitchers? The three most important contributors to a pitcher's ability to perform well and stay healthy are pitching mechanics, pitch volume, and pitch type. Pitching mechanics, "proper form", is the same at all levels of competition. That is why it is so important to teach proper pitching and throwing mechanics early. As the level of competition increases, pitchers throw harder-increasing the torque and forces on the throwing arm. Good mechanics will spread the forces more evenly along the kinetic chain (foot to hand). Flaws in the pitching form will put more stress on the joints (shoulder and elbow primarily), causing an injury sooner, rather than later. Because Little Leaguers don't throw very hard (relatively speaking), injuries may not be visible for years. Yet the effects add up and will cause problems eventually. Some studies have reported that 15% of male college students feel their ability to throw in college is hindered or hampered by pain, tenderness, or limitation of movement as a result of their youth baseball pitching.
Sulltiger24
If you are talking about this specific situation with the pitcher from GBN than I agree with you. I already told you that MY pitchers would only throw 4 maybe 5 at the most early on. I already stated my philosophy on non conference games.
I am saying to you that there must be some communication from the player to the coach. What if a player is cruising along in the stats of the game but his arm is killing him. He is at pitch 40. Should the coach be able to read his mind? He should talk to the coach. I never said it was "up to the player" to take himself out, read my words. I said that there should be communication. I constantly ask my pitchers how they feel. I know their limitations. I have watched their bullpens. I talk to the catchers. I personally chart each pitch in the game. My assistant coach and I call the shots, but communication is the key especially if a player isn't feeling right.
If a pitcher isn't healthy enough to pitch, he doesn't pitch.
bballdad1954. I am not disagreeing with anyone here. All I said was that there must be communication during the game/season about the health of the pitcher to the coach so the coach can make an informed decision. I am not talking about "Hey you are at 150 pitches do you think you can pitch the 8th?" I am talking about at pitch 60 if you are hurting tell me. I will get someone else in there.
In this post people were wanting to hear from the HS coaches. Here I am telling you about my philosophies and game strategies. Any other quesitons? I have been lucky enough to run the program at LPHS for the last 10+ years. In that time we have had some excellent players that have had great experiences. All of them to a man would tell you that I wouldn't blow out an arm for any game.
If you would like to get to know more about me and LP check out the link.
http://w3.lphs.org/athletics/spring/bbaseball/index.htm
There are five seasons worth of my notes on line as well as a lot of other info about the team.
If you are talking about this specific situation with the pitcher from GBN than I agree with you. I already told you that MY pitchers would only throw 4 maybe 5 at the most early on. I already stated my philosophy on non conference games.
I am saying to you that there must be some communication from the player to the coach. What if a player is cruising along in the stats of the game but his arm is killing him. He is at pitch 40. Should the coach be able to read his mind? He should talk to the coach. I never said it was "up to the player" to take himself out, read my words. I said that there should be communication. I constantly ask my pitchers how they feel. I know their limitations. I have watched their bullpens. I talk to the catchers. I personally chart each pitch in the game. My assistant coach and I call the shots, but communication is the key especially if a player isn't feeling right.
If a pitcher isn't healthy enough to pitch, he doesn't pitch.
bballdad1954. I am not disagreeing with anyone here. All I said was that there must be communication during the game/season about the health of the pitcher to the coach so the coach can make an informed decision. I am not talking about "Hey you are at 150 pitches do you think you can pitch the 8th?" I am talking about at pitch 60 if you are hurting tell me. I will get someone else in there.
In this post people were wanting to hear from the HS coaches. Here I am telling you about my philosophies and game strategies. Any other quesitons? I have been lucky enough to run the program at LPHS for the last 10+ years. In that time we have had some excellent players that have had great experiences. All of them to a man would tell you that I wouldn't blow out an arm for any game.
If you would like to get to know more about me and LP check out the link.
http://w3.lphs.org/athletics/spring/bbaseball/index.htm
There are five seasons worth of my notes on line as well as a lot of other info about the team.
quote:Originally posted by Playball2:
Oh, one more thought, remember pitch counts were a product of rehabilitation (UCL recovery, AKA Tommy John), today they are prehabilitative and again offer no significant proof to reduce the chance of injury.
Are you really serious? Then I suppose all of us RESPONSIBLE coaches should disregard pitch counts and chalk those up to being merely "prehabilitative"...whatever that means. Good thing my kid doesn't pitch for you...especially in cold weather. You obviously know more than Little League Baseball, leading clinicians in the field of Sports Medicine, and the rest of us morons.
quote:Give me a break. Why is it that when players succeed it is despite the coach and if they fail or are injured it is because of the coach?
Because it's all about "me" remember that. That, too, is why the summer games are more important than high school conference games. It's all about "me."
quote:Are you really serious? Then I suppose all of us RESPONSIBLE coaches should disregard pitch counts and chalk those up to being merely "prehabilitative"...whatever that means. Good thing my kid doesn't pitch for you...especially in cold weather. You obviously know more than Little League Baseball, leading clinicians in the field of Sports Medicine, and the rest of us morons.
First of all, get off your high horse. I'll bet "overuse" was the reason Mark Mulder left the game last week or two weeks ago with soreness in his shoulder. It's all Tony's fault. Oh wait.. he threw 16 pitches!
In my experience (yes, limited) the number 1 reason players have had arm injuries is the lack of proper conditioning. Sorry, this one falls on the player and his parents. The coach can preach preach, but the player has to do it. At Waterloo this year, our catcher (when I got home from school in May) was constantly complaining about his arm hurting. So I thought I'd watch him play catch one day. Missed him playing catch because I blinked. Players don't play enough catch. Second reason is BLATENT overuse. I'm talking pitching 5-6 times per week. All of these that I know of occurred in "travel" ball with the "responsible" coaches.
I can count the number of times I had anything more than slight soreness from throwing on one hand in my LIFE. I pitched all the way up to high school and was constantly pitching in the summer in junior high- we didn't have any other pitching. I was a catcher in high school and threw 10x most pitchers and I threw HARD. Never had a problem. I believe that's because I always played long toss (5-6 days a week in the season) and I grew up playing long toss. It wasn't rare for me and my neighbor to play catch literally for HOURS in the summer. That's all we did all day many days!
quote:Good thing my kid doesn't pitch for you...especially in cold weather. You obviously know more than Little League Baseball, leading clinicians in the field of Sports Medicine, and the rest of us morons.
Bravescoach, find where I said that pitch counts aren't valid or that I don't use them. Like what you read or not, they are not my words but rather excerpts from journals of medicine. I am not sure what a responsible moron is but you did refer to yourself as such perhaps you can elaborate. Secondly, Do you think the MLB would allow pitcher (multi-millionaires) to throw in the cold weather if they knew that is significantly enhanced injury. This information has been out there for a lot of years along with the word "Prehab" or "prehabilitative", it is a good thing that you have kept abreast of the information in your field. And I'm the guy you paint as ignorant or egotistical? Lastly, if your kid did play for me his HS summer experience wouldn't be meaningless.
I am not sure how big of a problem it is that kids (specifically pitchers) are playing on 2 (and I had one play on 3 teams) in the summer, but I do think it is a problem on some level. Before people jump all over that comment let me explain.
Player A throws 6 innings 85 pitches for his high school team on Monday. Certainly by no means abusive. Player A goes to his other team and plays for them Wednesday night. The coach asks Player A if he can pitch. He says he can so the coach uses him for 3 innings in relief on Wednesday. Whose fault is that? I always ask kids at the beginning of the week if they threw over the weekend and how much, but if the kid lies to me, what can I do about that? If the other coach simply asks if he can pitch and he says yes, that is clearly the kids fault. I make sure to explain the dangers of this to my players who are playing on 2 teams, but kids are competitors and want to pitch.
My personal philosophy on pitching injuries is that kids throw too much off mounds and not enough off flat ground. The bulk of their stressful throwing they do from April until October (if they play fall ball) is off the mound. Then they take lessons and are back up on a mound (usually one day per week with little to no throwing in between) in December until the season starts.
Player A throws 6 innings 85 pitches for his high school team on Monday. Certainly by no means abusive. Player A goes to his other team and plays for them Wednesday night. The coach asks Player A if he can pitch. He says he can so the coach uses him for 3 innings in relief on Wednesday. Whose fault is that? I always ask kids at the beginning of the week if they threw over the weekend and how much, but if the kid lies to me, what can I do about that? If the other coach simply asks if he can pitch and he says yes, that is clearly the kids fault. I make sure to explain the dangers of this to my players who are playing on 2 teams, but kids are competitors and want to pitch.
My personal philosophy on pitching injuries is that kids throw too much off mounds and not enough off flat ground. The bulk of their stressful throwing they do from April until October (if they play fall ball) is off the mound. Then they take lessons and are back up on a mound (usually one day per week with little to no throwing in between) in December until the season starts.
BCR-
I agree with you that the kid's need to be involved in this as well. What I notice though is that many kids in the summer are not getting much instruction from either side of the boat - travel or high school. Bad habits develop & then they show up with them in the spring unless they get help in the winter.
As for throwing off mounds, it is my personal opinion that pitchers do not throw off of them enough. I am not talking about max effort throwing off a mound but throwing 80% effort. Kids do not know how to use the slope of the mound IMO - all you need to do is watch when their front foot start turning (some at 6 inches above the ground.) They are driving "out" versus "down and out." I am not sure how you teach that on flat ground. Just a thought, from a Leo Mazzone fan.
I agree with you that the kid's need to be involved in this as well. What I notice though is that many kids in the summer are not getting much instruction from either side of the boat - travel or high school. Bad habits develop & then they show up with them in the spring unless they get help in the winter.
As for throwing off mounds, it is my personal opinion that pitchers do not throw off of them enough. I am not talking about max effort throwing off a mound but throwing 80% effort. Kids do not know how to use the slope of the mound IMO - all you need to do is watch when their front foot start turning (some at 6 inches above the ground.) They are driving "out" versus "down and out." I am not sure how you teach that on flat ground. Just a thought, from a Leo Mazzone fan.
quote:Originally posted by BCRockets:
… Player A throws 6 innings 85 pitches … I make sure to explain the dangers of this to my players who are playing on 2 teams, but kids are competitors and want to pitch.
Its great to put some of the responsibility for making good decisions on the kids, but let’s make sure everyone understands something. Until a child turns 18, his/her parents have to take some kind of responsibility here too!
IOW, there’s enough responsibility to go around for everyone involved! The coach owes it to his players not to do anything that will put them in harm’s way unnecessarily. There will always be some inherent danger to sports, but it can be mitigated.
The player owes it to his coach, his teammates, and although probably doesn’t realize it, to himself and his family, not to jeopardize himself! People are counting on him and will have to take action if something happens to him too.
The parents have the most obvious responsibility here, and nothing that either a coach or a child can do, will ever release them from that responsibility.
quote:My personal philosophy on pitching injuries is that kids throw too much off mounds and not enough off flat ground. The bulk of their stressful throwing they do from April until October (if they play fall ball) is off the mound. Then they take lessons and are back up on a mound (usually one day per week with little to no throwing in between) in December until the season starts.
I’m not quite sure what you’re saying here. If you’re saying kids should throw more, as in playing catch or long toss, in general I agree. But I have to go along with an old friend here about PITCHING off of flat ground. He thinks its an extremely bad idea, and so do I.
quote:I am not sure how big of a problem it is that kids (specifically pitchers) are playing on 2 (and I had one play on 3 teams) in the summer, but I do think it is a problem on some level.
Burn out?
At my high school, we had a kid this summer playing on 4 baseball teams normally catching. I know one team he was just around as an extra when we needed him. At the beginning of the summer, that was often. Since the end of June, we haven't brought him at all. So 3 teams isn't too bad, right? Well, now let's add that he was the varsity catcher this past spring (as a sophomore), was the varsity starting center on the basketball team, and oh yeah he's a quarterback on the football team too! Let's not forget that he has weight lifting, contact days for football, and open gym for basketball 3-4 days per week as well.
At what point do we say "enough" and place some sort of restrictions in the summer? Being a 3-sport athlete is a job these days.. and a fulltime one at that especially when you include academics too..
quote:Originally posted by nc42dad:
…What I notice though is that many kids in the summer are not getting much instruction from either side of the boat - travel or high school. Bad habits develop & then they show up with them in the spring unless they get help in the winter.
Are you saying that the players are getting lots of instruction other than the summer?
Here’s what I’ve found to be most generally true. Everything depends on the player, the coach, and the situation. I’ve seen HS teams that seem to teach more about scratching and spitting than baseball, and I’ve seen some that start developing players as early as Jr High(Middle School), and continue all through the HS years.
But one has to be very careful when evaluating how much players are being developed. If a coach has 12 top notch players who were all everything the year before, or he had 12 players who were extremely weak, the same instruction is going to produce two very different results. Someone just casually observing might not notice a great deal of development in the top players, but a huge leap in the weak ones.
quote:As for throwing off mounds, it is my personal opinion that pitchers do not throw off of them enough. I am not talking about max effort throwing off a mound but throwing 80% effort. Kids do not know how to use the slope of the mound IMO - all you need to do is watch when their front foot start turning (some at 6 inches above the ground.) They are driving "out" versus "down and out." I am not sure how you teach that on flat ground. Just a thought, from a Leo Mazzone fan.
If you’re talking about working on mechanics to make the delivery repeatable, I completely agree.
However, choosing something like front foot turn, heel vs toe landing, knee lift, or any other trait and saying its generally wrong, is something I truly don’t like to hear people talk about unless they've seen the P in person and watched closely. It plants the idea that its wrong, without a really in depth explanation.
SKeep-
As for the "instruction comment" I do not see our high school summer team "practicing." They just play games. Same with many travel teams. If "instruction" is telling a kid what he did wrong on the bench, I don't know how far that is going to go to correct a mechanical problem. Kid is going to have to work on it himself, or he is more than likely going to have the same problems in the spring. Most of the dedicated kids do work with guys in the off season. High school coaches are not allowed to in IL (CA ?)
As for mounds, you need to learn how to use it and learn to throw down hill. IMO you can't learn that from flat ground throwing. That is all I am saying. I do not think you ever want a kid turning his lead foot when it is 6 inches off the ground. I don't like discussing mechanics on these forums - too many experts out there. You know, we all have our theories. I just spent the entire afternoon working with my kid on his pitching. What works for him may not work for someone else but the important thing is we are working/trying things...and having fun doing it!
As for the "instruction comment" I do not see our high school summer team "practicing." They just play games. Same with many travel teams. If "instruction" is telling a kid what he did wrong on the bench, I don't know how far that is going to go to correct a mechanical problem. Kid is going to have to work on it himself, or he is more than likely going to have the same problems in the spring. Most of the dedicated kids do work with guys in the off season. High school coaches are not allowed to in IL (CA ?)
As for mounds, you need to learn how to use it and learn to throw down hill. IMO you can't learn that from flat ground throwing. That is all I am saying. I do not think you ever want a kid turning his lead foot when it is 6 inches off the ground. I don't like discussing mechanics on these forums - too many experts out there. You know, we all have our theories. I just spent the entire afternoon working with my kid on his pitching. What works for him may not work for someone else but the important thing is we are working/trying things...and having fun doing it!
quote:Originally posted by nc42dad:
As for the "instruction comment" I do not see our high school summer team "practicing." They just play games. Same with many travel teams. If "instruction" is telling a kid what he did wrong on the bench, I don't know how far that is going to go to correct a mechanical problem. Kid is going to have to work on it himself, or he is more than likely going to have the same problems in the spring. Most of the dedicated kids do work with guys in the off season. High school coaches are not allowed to in IL (CA ?)
Let me be perfectly clear in something before I get misunderstood. There are one heck of a lot of HS programs that do a lot of instruction and development! Unfortunately, there are also a heck of a lot of HS programs that are pretty much in neutral. I.e., they use the players as they get them and leave development to someone else.
HS coaches aren’t allowed to represent their HS as a coach outside of the season of sport, but they’re certainly allowed to work with players. FI, out HS coach coaches a Legion team. It just happens to be made up of all the players on last years V and JV.
quote:As for mounds, you need to learn how to use it and learn to throw down hill. IMO you can't learn that from flat ground throwing. That is all I am saying.
My old pitching coach friend insists that trying to pitch off of flat ground will ruin mechanics faster than just about anything. His main reason is, in order to throw a strike off of flat ground, the release point has to be much much higher because in effect the throw is going uphill.
quote:I do not think you ever want a kid turning his lead foot when it is 6 inches off the ground. I don't like discussing mechanics on these forums - too many experts out there. You know, we all have our theories. I just spent the entire afternoon working with my kid on his pitching. What works for him may not work for someone else but the important thing is we are working/trying things...and having fun doing it!
Nice post, but I’d prolly argue about the 6” off the ground thing.
SKeep-
You are so right on about the instruction from hs programs but I do think you can also make the same analogy with the travel teams as well. They are not all the same. I hate making blanket statements because there are differences out there. My boys get more out of Fall baseball, as far as skill development, than they do from anything else. We have been very lucky.
You are so right on about the instruction from hs programs but I do think you can also make the same analogy with the travel teams as well. They are not all the same. I hate making blanket statements because there are differences out there. My boys get more out of Fall baseball, as far as skill development, than they do from anything else. We have been very lucky.
quote:Originally posted by nc42dad:
You are so right on about the instruction from hs programs but I do think you can also make the same analogy with the travel teams as well. They are not all the same.
I have to be real careful about making comments about teams that travel and go to showcase events.
But in general, I believe you’re dead on when talking about the travel/club/tournament teams too. There’s one heck of a lot of marketing from a lot of those teams claiming to develop players, get them seen, and all kinds of other things that in my opinion are mostly intended to do little more than separate dad/mom from a significant portion of their disposable income.
quote:I hate making blanket statements because there are differences out there.
Yes there are. That’s why its always best to make general statements.
quote:My boys get more out of Fall baseball, as far as skill development, than they do from anything else. We have been very lucky.
I’m gonna take a guess here. That guess is, they learning more because there’s very little pressure to win! Not many coaches are gonna jerk a player for making an error or K’ing with runners on in fall ball.
Bulldog, you made some nice points AND what needs to happen IMO is the coaching staff has to get together and allow this young man some time for his body to recover. I had a SS that you saw play and I used to order him to take days off. That might have made some coaches upset but he had to have a break. BTW, it was a good thing that his parents approved of this. There is no substitute for parental support.
After reading some of these threads, I have to tell you, I'd really like to see some of these practices. The entire suggestion that teaching does not occur is foreign to my experience. I know that many might assume so but I'm betting that in the dugout or in pre game there is a lot of teaching taking place. Also, I think that players don't communicate well with parents on what was achieved in a practice or game or... One example, our practice yesterday, and in addition to our "Dirty 30," we worked on angles to the ball on the infied. We worked on dead leg plays for pitchers and 3rd base. We worked on how to drop the correct foot to open for both SS and 2b for double plays and we did a very complicated "game" with cutoffs for outfield play complete with runners running. Yet, when one of the parents picked up one of the players, the comment was that we had a "normal" practice.
Not to get to far off of the subject but my pitchers worked both from the mound AND flat ground. We also used "tools" such as chairs and portable mounds. From the portable mounds we also had pitchers do a series of drills where their feet worked up the incline. I don't think this "stuff" is for everyone and to be sure, working with pitchers should be taken very seriously. I'd mention that no work with pitchers is complete without "band work" and "leg work." JMHO!
After reading some of these threads, I have to tell you, I'd really like to see some of these practices. The entire suggestion that teaching does not occur is foreign to my experience. I know that many might assume so but I'm betting that in the dugout or in pre game there is a lot of teaching taking place. Also, I think that players don't communicate well with parents on what was achieved in a practice or game or... One example, our practice yesterday, and in addition to our "Dirty 30," we worked on angles to the ball on the infied. We worked on dead leg plays for pitchers and 3rd base. We worked on how to drop the correct foot to open for both SS and 2b for double plays and we did a very complicated "game" with cutoffs for outfield play complete with runners running. Yet, when one of the parents picked up one of the players, the comment was that we had a "normal" practice.
Not to get to far off of the subject but my pitchers worked both from the mound AND flat ground. We also used "tools" such as chairs and portable mounds. From the portable mounds we also had pitchers do a series of drills where their feet worked up the incline. I don't think this "stuff" is for everyone and to be sure, working with pitchers should be taken very seriously. I'd mention that no work with pitchers is complete without "band work" and "leg work." JMHO!
As regular readers know, my son plays for the Norwood Blues. They practice indoors in the winter. They have a week of practices before the season, then all games. The have a good warmup session before each game.
Coach Pildes is all about teaching. It is his profession and passion. He doesn't teach mechanics of the swing or pitching. He teaches baseball. Situations, base running, infield plays, strategy, when to shade the line, when to play in, when to play with depth, when to take a pitch, when to go for it etc. He actually takes notes during the game and uses his after the game talk to go over what lessons can be learned form each game.
The cost for the Blues program is surprisingly small, I won't say because I don't know if Duece wants the fee out there.
The kids that are on the team can already hit throw and pitch. He teaches baseball that some others don't.
Each travel team is different. I can't believe guys like Copp are not teaching a lot. I am sure the kids on his team are learning to be better players.
My son has played on teams where there was no teaching. Some of the programs were for money and the managers were "body collectors" If a kid can't play, don't coach him, recruit a kid who can play. There are no hard truths about travel or HS ball. It is as differet as the people involved. Find the program that works for you and enjoy.
Coach Pildes is all about teaching. It is his profession and passion. He doesn't teach mechanics of the swing or pitching. He teaches baseball. Situations, base running, infield plays, strategy, when to shade the line, when to play in, when to play with depth, when to take a pitch, when to go for it etc. He actually takes notes during the game and uses his after the game talk to go over what lessons can be learned form each game.
The cost for the Blues program is surprisingly small, I won't say because I don't know if Duece wants the fee out there.
The kids that are on the team can already hit throw and pitch. He teaches baseball that some others don't.
Each travel team is different. I can't believe guys like Copp are not teaching a lot. I am sure the kids on his team are learning to be better players.
My son has played on teams where there was no teaching. Some of the programs were for money and the managers were "body collectors" If a kid can't play, don't coach him, recruit a kid who can play. There are no hard truths about travel or HS ball. It is as differet as the people involved. Find the program that works for you and enjoy.
CoachB25-
I am jealous. I have probably complained the most about the practicing/coaching/teaching. All I can tell you is that our summer high school team had two practices before the season started and that was it. Didn't see infielders working on DPs, charging the ball,cut offs, nothing! When the team made the summer play offs, they went to the cages. The pitchers called their own pitches during the summer regular season but once they made the playoffs, that ended because apparently they aren't smart enough to that. Seeing that we had three games where we gave up 10 runs or more I am not so sure that coaches called pitches any better than the kids. Someone explain that one to me.
My kid pitches and no one anywhere has done anything with him in between games all summer, except me. So maybe that is because he is so good, or so perfect, that he doesn't need any help. I doubt that. When I watch him he isn't throwing as good as he was in the spring. Why is that? But we still get the speech about how our kids are supposed to sacrifice everything for the school & put them first. Travel is about the individual and that is not what high school baseball is about. Fine. Sounds like someone has an ego. We would have been much, much farther ahead pitching only travel games because I saw what it did to kid #1. He didn't come out too bad.
Maybe I complain too much but I have been in the middle of this travel vs. high school garbage twice now with two boys. I am fed up with it and if there was another option other than high school, we would be there in a heartbeat. I am sure many others feel the same way. I realize that not every program is run the same way. Expressing my opinion will probably come back to bite me somewhere but maybe it will help wake some people up... or not.
I am jealous. I have probably complained the most about the practicing/coaching/teaching. All I can tell you is that our summer high school team had two practices before the season started and that was it. Didn't see infielders working on DPs, charging the ball,cut offs, nothing! When the team made the summer play offs, they went to the cages. The pitchers called their own pitches during the summer regular season but once they made the playoffs, that ended because apparently they aren't smart enough to that. Seeing that we had three games where we gave up 10 runs or more I am not so sure that coaches called pitches any better than the kids. Someone explain that one to me.
My kid pitches and no one anywhere has done anything with him in between games all summer, except me. So maybe that is because he is so good, or so perfect, that he doesn't need any help. I doubt that. When I watch him he isn't throwing as good as he was in the spring. Why is that? But we still get the speech about how our kids are supposed to sacrifice everything for the school & put them first. Travel is about the individual and that is not what high school baseball is about. Fine. Sounds like someone has an ego. We would have been much, much farther ahead pitching only travel games because I saw what it did to kid #1. He didn't come out too bad.
Maybe I complain too much but I have been in the middle of this travel vs. high school garbage twice now with two boys. I am fed up with it and if there was another option other than high school, we would be there in a heartbeat. I am sure many others feel the same way. I realize that not every program is run the same way. Expressing my opinion will probably come back to bite me somewhere but maybe it will help wake some people up... or not.