Travel vs. HS

My main point was that they do not play enough catch/long toss to build arm strength. From the time the season starts until it ends they do a lot of maximum effort throwing off the mound with little or maintenance throwing in between. Each of our kids has a programs for in between starts, but it is tailored to their needs and how their arm recovers and reacts.

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Originally posted by SKeep:

My old pitching coach friend insists that trying to pitch off of flat ground will ruin mechanics faster than just about anything. His main reason is, in order to throw a strike off of flat ground, the release point has to be much much higher because in effect the throw is going uphill.

Something we did in college to combat this is do flatground work from 50 feet instead of 60. My understanding of the theory behind it is that it allows you to keep a better angle on your release to get the ball down in the box (between the catcher's knees). Any thoughts on that? It's one of those things I never questioned, our pitching coach pitched in the Dodgers organization and I assume that's where he got it from.

That post may be best suited for a different thread, but I'd be interested in hearing some opinions on that idea.

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Originally posted by BCRockets:
My main point was that they do not play enough catch/long toss to build arm strength. From the time the season starts until it ends they do a lot of maximum effort throwing off the mound with little or maintenance throwing in between. …

Agree.

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Something we did in college to combat this is do flatground work from 50 feet instead of 60. My understanding of the theory behind it is that it allows you to keep a better angle on your release to get the ball down in the box (between the catcher's knees). Any thoughts on that? It's one of those things I never questioned, our pitching coach pitched in the Dodgers organization and I assume that's where he got it from.

It sounds as though that would be better than trying to throw the full 60’6”.

My thought is this.

On most baseball fields there are 5 mounds, rubbers, and plates. If I’m gonna have my pitchers work out on pitching, I want them throwing off a mound. If I have the 5 mounds, I can have all of my pitchers do a complete pen in around an hour and a half. Outside of that perfect situation, there are things that can be done to make sure the P’s get lots of mound time.

I have a huge hot button here. Mound height, slope, and having the mounds at a field not being all the same.

Its not much of a factor in college, but in HS and below, people would croak if they knew how far off most mounds are. Even if a mound is only an inch too high, that’s 10%! What would it do to the game if the bases were 10% longer or shorter, or the mound was 10% farther away or closer? On a 60/90 field, the mound height is 10” by rule, and that’s what it should be, not just for the pretty game mound, but for all those ratty lookin’ bull pen mounds too! (And don’t make like you don’t know what I’m talking about.)

But the height is only a part of it. There’s also slope. Again, in college it isn’t as big a factor, but in HS and below, it sure is. The rules for a 60/90 are, from a point 6” in front of the rubber for the next 6’ toward the plate, the slope shall be 1” of drop per linear foot.

So, to start with, that big hole in front of the rubber isn’t supposed to be there, nor should the dirt be an inch or two lower than the top of the rubber, and the slope definitely doesn’t start at the rubber either! But, if you want to win enough beer to float a battleship, bet every pitcher, pitching coach, and parent in HS and below, a 6 pack if they can correctly give the criteria for a pitcher’s mound!

And what’s worse is, even if they know the book definition, most haven’t got the slightest clue about how variations in those criteria can affect pitchers. Here’s a typical situation on a HS team.

Its time for a pitcher or two to throw a pen. Do they go out to the beautifully manicured game mound? Heck no! The field is being used to practice defense or BP! So what happens. Its off to the home team bullpen. Usually this is two plates about 15’ from each other at one end, and two mounds, and I use the term loosely, on the other.

To begin with, chances are the distance isn’t 60’6”, It might be close, but if the field is more than a decade old, chances are the plates or the rubbers have been replaced, and not put back perfectly.

Then there’s the mound soil. That game mound is likely made up of some very expensive clay that gets routinely compacted and cared for, but those pen mounds are very often made up of whatever dirt’s available, topped with DG.

Then you go on to the rubber. Likely the game mound rubber is one of those 10 pounders with 4 different sides that can be used as the top plate, along with the pipe that can be filled with dirt or whatever to help anchor it and keep it from warping or sagging. But its also pretty likely the pen rubbers are those ½ inch rubber plates with the 3 huge spikes in them that get pounded into the ground. I’m sure everyone knows them intimately.

Now you get to some real issues. If the plates are loose, there’s literally no chance the mound height is correct because the height it determined from the height of the plate! Then there’s that darn slope again! How many times have you seen the bull pen mound lookin’ like a heard of buffalo had just run over it, followed by Noah’s flood that washes away a lot of the soil and left mini Grand Canyons?

But its all good. After all, its only a bull pen! But what’s even worse is, before the game, where do the starters warm up? And during the game, where do the relievers warm up? I ask you, how foolish is it to do that? Those P’s are being asked to be as precise as possible, then given the worst conditions under with to practice and prepare, and on top of that, when they fail, they’re blamed for not being consistent or accurate!

I’ll stop now because I’m all fired up. I told you it was a hot button!

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Originally posted by CoachB25:
After reading some of these threads, I have to tell you, I'd really like to see some of these practices. The entire suggestion that teaching does not occur is foreign to my experience. I know that many might assume so but I'm betting that in the dugout or in pre game there is a lot of teaching taking place. Also, I think that players don't communicate well with parents on what was achieved in a practice or game or... One example, our practice yesterday, and in addition to our "Dirty 30," we worked on angles to the ball on the infied. We worked on dead leg plays for pitchers and 3rd base. We worked on how to drop the correct foot to open for both SS and 2b for double plays and we did a very complicated "game" with cutoffs for outfield play complete with runners running. Yet, when one of the parents picked up one of the players, the comment was that we had a "normal" practice.

I think the idea that no teaching takes place, even in poor programs is false. I apologize to any coaches who may have gotten the idea that that’s what I meant. Of course teaching goes on! But its seldom the one on one people see when they take they’re kid to a private coach.

Let’s face it, when a coach can devote his time specifically to one player rather than 20 players who all have different skill levels, and therefore needs, a lot more can be accomplished for that individual. When teaching is being done in the group setting, something else happens as well. It may be that to help player “A” you have to tell him to do “X”. But to help player “B”, you may have to tell him to do just the opposite for what looks like the same problem. That’s pretty tough to do with players all over the place hearing what others are being told.

And you’re correct. Something does get lost in the translation from what happened as the coach saw it, to what happened as the player saw it that he passes on to his parents. But that’s something that will never ever change.

But too, you have to admit that it isn’t fair to judge every program or coach by what you do personally, whether you’re a highly successful coach, or one who’s program seems always to be in the toilet. Sadly, there are quite a few programs and coaches that simply don’t do much in the way of development.

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Not to get to far off of the subject but my pitchers worked both from the mound AND flat ground. We also used "tools" such as chairs and portable mounds. From the portable mounds we also had pitchers do a series of drills where their feet worked up the incline. I don't think this "stuff" is for everyone and to be sure, working with pitchers should be taken very seriously. I'd mention that no work with pitchers is complete without "band work" and "leg work." JMHO!

I think its important to not that WORKING from flat ground, and pitching from flat ground are two very different things. One is better preparing the entire body to face the rigors of pitching, while the other is meant almost entirely to develop the timing necessary to be as precise and consistent as possible.

And you certainly are correct about how seriously working with not just the pitchers should be taken, but with all the players in all phases of the game! If you’ve got a team that can score 8 runs a game, but have pitching and a defense that gives up 8.5, you’re likely gonna lose more games than you win. On the reverse side, if you have pitching and a defense that only gives up 3 runs a game, but the offense can only score 2,5, you’re likely to lose more than you win that way too. I’m gonna guess that the best teams are much more well balanced than people believe.

SKeep makes some good points. However, I'd question whether most schools have 5 mounds. I'd think places such as California this might be true. Here in Illinois, some of our conference schools don't have a mound for the visiting team. We load up a portable mound when we go to some of these schools but still, our pitchers have to warm up in basketball shoes instead of their cleats. We build a new schools and so, in the process had the luxury of having the bullpen created on our terms. We had 4 pitching stations built in. We also had the luxury of having this practice area surveyed and layed out professionaly to match our game mound. This complete with clay bricks underneath. However, the care required is a major chore and we have a tarp covering our bullpen areas just as we do on our game mound. I would suggest to a lot of coaches that they have resources in their community that they probably don't realize that have access to these survey tools. Heck, they might be able to get that all don't for a mention in the school program.

This quote by SKeep is, perhaps, an understatement:

"I’m gonna guess that the best teams are much more well balanced than people believe."

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
SKeep makes some good points. However, I'd question whether most schools have 5 mounds. I'd think places such as California this might be true. Here in Illinois, some of our conference schools don't have a mound for the visiting team. We load up a portable mound when we go to some of these schools but still, our pitchers have to warm up in basketball shoes instead of their cleats.

Mebbe it is just a Ca thing, or mebbe a Sun Belt thing, but it really makes no difference does it? The main point was, every mound a pitcher throws from should be set up as close as possible to the rules of baseball, and at any individual field, whatever mounds there are should mat the game mound. I’m not saying they have to because obviously they don’t. What I’m saying is, the SHOULD.

quote:

We build a new schools and so, in the process had the luxury of having the bullpen created on our terms. We had 4 pitching stations built in. We also had the luxury of having this practice area surveyed and layed out professionaly to match our game mound. This complete with clay bricks underneath. However, the care required is a major chore and we have a tarp covering our bullpen areas just as we do on our game mound. I would suggest to a lot of coaches that they have resources in their community that they probably don't realize that have access to these survey tools. Heck, they might be able to get that all don't for a mention in the school program.

It definitely is a problem that all school fields aren’t equal, and worse, that all equal fields as far as amenities go, aren’t maintained equally. I don’t know about there in Il, but out here money’s a huge factor. For instance, in our school district there are 8 HS. All have athletic fields, and all have the school district’s maintenance personnel maintain them.

Trouble is, mowing once a week isn’t enough, and since we get little or no rain during baseball season, we depend entirely on irrigation. At our school, the HC doesn’t have a key to the irrigation timer because he’s not in the union, so if the fields need a little more or less time, its just too bad. If something in the system breaks, which is common, you can’t get someone to fix it because that would be messing with a union job.

Something as simple as putting down fertilizer or herbicide could turn into a major deal because all chemical applications have to be reported to the state! IOW, it’s a pretty big hassle!

quote:

This quote by SKeep is, perhaps, an understatement:

"I’m gonna guess that the best teams are much more well balanced than people believe."

LOL!

If you only knew how many times during a game, let alone during a season or a career as a SK I’ve had to point out to people that very thing. Most people get all caught up in the moment and go on and on about how some pitcher dominated or how some hitter won or lost a game with what he did. But in reality, the game goes on for however many innings, and there are at least twice as many opportunities to affect the outcome of the game as there are pitches thrown! In the end, there’s no one thing anyone can point to that was by itself the cause of anything. It truly takes a team effort to either win or lose.

quote:

Originally posted by SKeep:

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
SKeep makes some good points. However, I'd question whether most schools have 5 mounds. I'd think places such as California this might be true. Here in Illinois, some of our conference schools don't have a mound for the visiting team. We load up a portable mound when we go to some of these schools but still, our pitchers have to warm up in basketball shoes instead of their cleats.

Mebbe it is just a Ca thing, or mebbe a Sun Belt thing, but it really makes no difference does it? The main point was, every mound a pitcher throws from should be set up as close as possible to the rules of baseball, and at any individual field, whatever mounds there are should match the game mound. I’m not saying they have to because obviously they don’t. What I’m saying is, the SHOULD.

quote:

We build a new schools and so, in the process had the luxury of having the bullpen created on our terms. We had 4 pitching stations built in. We also had the luxury of having this practice area surveyed and layed out professionaly to match our game mound. This complete with clay bricks underneath. However, the care required is a major chore and we have a tarp covering our bullpen areas just as we do on our game mound. I would suggest to a lot of coaches that they have resources in their community that they probably don't realize that have access to these survey tools. Heck, they might be able to get that all don't for a mention in the school program.

It definitely is a problem that all school fields aren’t equal, and worse, that all equal fields as far as amenities go, aren’t maintained equally. I don’t know about there in Il, but out here money’s a huge factor. For instance, in our school district there are 8 HS. All have athletic fields, and all have the school district’s maintenance personnel maintain them.

Trouble is, mowing once a week isn’t enough, and since we get little or no rain during baseball season, we depend entirely on irrigation. At our school, the HC doesn’t have a key to the irrigation timer because he’s not in the union, so if the fields need a little more or less time, its just too bad. If something in the system breaks, which is common, you can’t get someone to fix it because that would be messing with a union job.

Something as simple as putting down fertilizer or herbicide could turn into a major deal because all chemical applications have to be reported to the state! IOW, it’s a pretty big hassle!

quote:

This quote by SKeep is, perhaps, an understatement:

"I’m gonna guess that the best teams are much more well balanced than people believe."

LOL!

If you only knew how many times during a game, let alone during a season or a career as a SK I’ve had to point out to people that very thing. Most people get all caught up in the moment and go on and on about how some pitcher dominated or how some hitter won or lost a game with what he did. But in reality, the game goes on for however many innings, and there are at least twice as many opportunities to affect the outcome of the game as there are pitches thrown! In the end, there’s no one thing anyone can point to that was by itself the cause of anything. It truly takes a team effort to either win or lose.

quote:

Originally posted by SKeep:

quote:

Originally posted by SKeep:

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
SKeep makes some good points. However, I'd question whether most schools have 5 mounds. I'd think places such as California this might be true. Here in Illinois, some of our conference schools don't have a mound for the visiting team. We load up a portable mound when we go to some of these schools but still, our pitchers have to warm up in basketball shoes instead of their cleats.

Mebbe it is just a Ca thing, or mebbe a Sun Belt thing, but it really makes no difference does it? The main point was, every mound a pitcher throws from should be set up as close as possible to the rules of baseball, and at any individual field, whatever mounds there are should match the game mound. I’m not saying they have to because obviously they don’t. What I’m saying is, they SHOULD.

quote:

We build a new schools and so, in the process had the luxury of having the bullpen created on our terms. We had 4 pitching stations built in. We also had the luxury of having this practice area surveyed and layed out professionaly to match our game mound. This complete with clay bricks underneath. However, the care required is a major chore and we have a tarp covering our bullpen areas just as we do on our game mound. I would suggest to a lot of coaches that they have resources in their community that they probably don't realize that have access to these survey tools. Heck, they might be able to get that all don't for a mention in the school program.

It definitely is a problem that all school fields aren’t equal, and worse, that all equal fields as far as amenities go, aren’t maintained equally. I don’t know about there in Il, but out here money’s a huge factor. For instance, in our school district there are 8 HS. All have athletic fields, and all have the school district’s maintenance personnel maintain them.

Trouble is, mowing once a week isn’t enough, and since we get little or no rain during baseball season, we depend entirely on irrigation. At our school, the HC doesn’t have a key to the irrigation timer because he’s not in the union, so if the fields need a little more or less time, its just too bad. If something in the system breaks, which is common, you can’t get someone to fix it because that would be messing with a union job.

Something as simple as putting down fertilizer or herbicide could turn into a major deal because all chemical applications have to be reported to the state! IOW, it’s a pretty big hassle!

quote:

This quote by SKeep is, perhaps, an understatement:

"I’m gonna guess that the best teams are much more well balanced than people believe."

LOL!

If you only knew how many times during a game, let alone during a season or a career as a SK I’ve had to point out to people that very thing. Most people get all caught up in the moment and go on and on about how some pitcher dominated or how some hitter won or lost a game with what he did. But in reality, the game goes on for however many innings, and there are at least twice as many opportunities to affect the outcome of the game as there are pitches thrown! In the end, there’s no one thing anyone can point to that was by itself the cause of anything. It truly takes a team effort to either win or lose.