What is the definition of a trick / bush league play? Why isn't when the throw from the outfield coming to home and the relay man fakes the cut to freeze a runner a "trick" play? That involves tricking a runner. The player is trying to trick the runner into thinking he has the ball so he can't advance to the next base. Why isn't that wrong or immoral?
While it is against the rules baseball doesn't frown upon the middle infield faking the double play on a fly ball when the runner on first base is stealing. It's against the rules because they don't want some kid who can't slide trying to slide and breaking a leg - they didn't outlaw it because it gave the defense an advantage. Why doesn't baseball at the higher levels frown on that? Why isn't this wrong and immoral?
Why don't anyone get up in arms on the first and third leave early play - sprinting, jogging, tripping or whatever by the guy on first. That is a trick but nobody ever says it's immoral - it's just baseball.
Why doesn't anyone get upset when in a first and third situation the pitcher fakes to third and wheels to first? You are trying to trick the runner at first. Granted it is the oldest trick in the book and basically doesn't work but there is always that one kid who will fall for it once a season. Why isn't that immoral?
What about when a pitcher steps off quickly trying to see if the batter is squaring around to bunt? Or stepping off quickly to see if the runner on third makes a break in a squeeze play? Why aren't those plays wrong or immoral?
There are all kinds of plays in baseball that involve some sort of trickery and deceit. At what point does it become a bush league play? If you want to say tricking a player is wrong then throwing curveballs, changeups, sliders, or whatever is trickery. Why isn't that bush league?
CPLZ remember a couple of months ago when the discussion was about what teachers should teach? Some people were saying since kids weren't being taught morals at home they should be taught in school. You said it's wrong for teachers to do this because one person's morals may be different than anothers and we should be forcing these ideas on kids except by parents.
Well this is the same thing - you want to say it's wrong to run any trick plays is your prerogative but it doesn't make it wrong because some people do think it's right.
I'm not going to lie - if our teams would somehow ever play and I felt running one of those plays would help me win then I am going to do it. You want to get mad then so be it. I'm not going to apologize for it.
Like someone said before if you run it then it's a trick play but if it's run against you then it's bush league.
I don't teach my guys how to not fall for these plays. There is not enough time in the day or season to prepare them for it. So we just teach them to pay attention to the ball - dive back in and either see the ball or pick up a basecoach if you don't see it. Never leave the base until you know for sure where the ball is. That helps eliminates a lot of these trick plays.
When I was growing up my parents, my coaches, my teachers and other adults embarassed me on many occasions. They did it to teach me a lesson and I learned that lesson because I didn't like the way being embarassed felt. If I get a guy who does happen to fall for a trick / bush league play then I am pretty sure they will learn from it. Did it hurt their feelings - probably but that is not that big of a deal when you compare it to others bad things that happen in life.
Coach,
Your whole post is a rationalization of your actions. You are blurring the lines between winning and beating the system, and there is a distinct difference.
Here is the essence of the problem. You have interjected yourself into the game as an adult and as an adult are trying to pull a fast one on an unsuspecting teenager, so that you can get the win. You have taken the pitch, hit, field, throw, away from the kids and put the outcome in your hands.
When my oldest played in the hometown LL Championship, a foul ball drifted towards the visitors dugout. Our third baseman broke off chase when the adult coach in the visitors dugout shouted, "I got it". According to your rationalization, that is a defensible action. In reality, that coach was an a$$.
I never mentioned morals because morals and ethics are a moving target that people fit to their arguments depending on the moment. I used the word honor. There is no honor in an adult taking advantage of a teenager. And there is no glory in a win not won, but sneaked into the W column.
As I said before, it's OK, there's many people that don't understand the concept of honor and winning honorably. Win at all costs should not be the message we send to HS athletes. That is not conducive to producing stand up members of their community.
Your whole post is a rationalization of your actions. You are blurring the lines between winning and beating the system, and there is a distinct difference.
quote:Originally posted by coach2709:
I'm not going to lie - if our teams would somehow ever play and I felt running one of those plays would help me win then I am going to do it. You want to get mad then so be it. I'm not going to apologize for it.
Here is the essence of the problem. You have interjected yourself into the game as an adult and as an adult are trying to pull a fast one on an unsuspecting teenager, so that you can get the win. You have taken the pitch, hit, field, throw, away from the kids and put the outcome in your hands.
When my oldest played in the hometown LL Championship, a foul ball drifted towards the visitors dugout. Our third baseman broke off chase when the adult coach in the visitors dugout shouted, "I got it". According to your rationalization, that is a defensible action. In reality, that coach was an a$$.
I never mentioned morals because morals and ethics are a moving target that people fit to their arguments depending on the moment. I used the word honor. There is no honor in an adult taking advantage of a teenager. And there is no glory in a win not won, but sneaked into the W column.
As I said before, it's OK, there's many people that don't understand the concept of honor and winning honorably. Win at all costs should not be the message we send to HS athletes. That is not conducive to producing stand up members of their community.
CPLZ: the adult yells "i got it"... he broke a rule. The ump should have called the batter out and ejected the coach.
In the original example; that's just bad baseball by the pitcher. If the baserunner falls down and there is a guy on third and I pursue the guy falling down: that is bad baseball. There is no "moral" stuff about it. Hidden ball trick: i get picked off: that is just bad baseball. I have no business leading off without the pitcher being on the mound.
There are "cheat plays" ... the bee example, the potato play (catcher throws a potato over 3rd as a fake to pick off runner, then tags out runner coming home with ball), the cut the corner play (baserunner doesn't touch 3rd on way home from 2nd)... These are cheating. Faking a throw into centerfield is not cheating because every kid knows the pitcher can fake a throw to 2nd or third but not to home or first....
I want my guys to play good baseball. If we lead off when we shouldn't, that's bad baseball.
In the original example; that's just bad baseball by the pitcher. If the baserunner falls down and there is a guy on third and I pursue the guy falling down: that is bad baseball. There is no "moral" stuff about it. Hidden ball trick: i get picked off: that is just bad baseball. I have no business leading off without the pitcher being on the mound.
There are "cheat plays" ... the bee example, the potato play (catcher throws a potato over 3rd as a fake to pick off runner, then tags out runner coming home with ball), the cut the corner play (baserunner doesn't touch 3rd on way home from 2nd)... These are cheating. Faking a throw into centerfield is not cheating because every kid knows the pitcher can fake a throw to 2nd or third but not to home or first....
I want my guys to play good baseball. If we lead off when we shouldn't, that's bad baseball.
When my son played for a well known N. CA program between the ages of 10-12 our coach would sometimes call a trick play that often worked. Us parents in the stands were embarrassed by it as the other team booed us. Fast forward to senior year in high school, a very well known program tried a similar play and our guys did not fall for it. It just made the other team look foolish at this level. The other day in a heated game against a very good opponent our CF did fall for the hidden ball trick and was picked off 2B. Guess he'll know better next time!
At the high school level it's pathetic when these plays are called and in my opinion it makes the other coach look desperate. But, that's just my opinion.
At the high school level it's pathetic when these plays are called and in my opinion it makes the other coach look desperate. But, that's just my opinion.
CPLZ I am part of the game because I am the coach. If I (or one of my coaches) call pitches - we are part of the game. If I am in third basebox and put a bunt sign on - I am part of the game. If I make a pitching change or other substitution - I am part of the game. Coaches are parts of the game and there is no getting around it.
Now the role of the coach during the game could be bad or good - depending on what I do. The coach you are talking about was wrong and does not have honor like you said. That is bush league and is similar to what ARod did. It's wrong.
Let me tell you what I do in that situation with the other team and you tell me if I have honor or not. If there is a popup near the fence and the other team is going after it I yell "fence". I don't yell "out of play", "foul ball" or anything like that because that is going to cause the kid to pull up and it falls in - to me that is wrong. I yell "fence" because if the other coach has done his job the player will recognize I am warning him about the fence and he can start to pull up safely while still going for the ball. I am not going to keep quiet because if I keep my mouth shut then that kid may run full speed into the fence and get hurt. I teach my guys to talk to one another when the fence is near - I can't guarantee that for everyone else.
If I yell "fence" and the kid stops and the ball drops that is the other coaches fault or if he still goes into the fence full head of steam and gets hurt that is the other coaches fault for not teaching his guy that simple thing.
I tell you this story to give you an idea that I do have honor because I am not going to "win at all costs". I want to make sure none of the kids get hurt.
Trojan Skipper said it pretty well that in baseball you have to pay attention. If a kid doesn't pay attention and gets tagged out either the coach failed in teaching the kid to pay attention or the kid brainfarted and messed up. Either way you the kid should learn to pay attention.
Yes I am rationalizing in my examples because that is what the trick play in discussion is - rational. Baseball is about tricking the other team in order to get an advantage. That is sports and life - get the advantage to get the win. There are right ways to do it and there are wrong ways to do it. Just because I am forcing someone to pay attention doesn't make me without honor.
Honor is like morals - it's open to various interpretations. What I think is honorable might not be honorable to someone else. Obviously this is a great example of that.
Let me ask you this - is hitting a player from the other team in retaliatation honorable? I don't think so - I think it's garbage.
What if your team on their own ran the play of pitcher faking and CF falling down? You had no knowledge they had worked on it on their own and decided at the next game they were going to run it. Well is that honorable? You said it should be left up to the guys to "pitch, hit, field, throw" and adults stay out of it. What do you there?
Also, after rereading your post you put words in my mouth -
In none of my examples above did I even come close to rationalizing this. You just don't like the fact that these plays exist and you want to lump coaches who use them as the bad coaches - or is that me putting works into your mouth?
Does the fact I use this one play make me an a$$? I happen to be pretty well respected in my region. I know some parents who would agree with it but the guys I coach against I doubt they would agree with it.
Now the role of the coach during the game could be bad or good - depending on what I do. The coach you are talking about was wrong and does not have honor like you said. That is bush league and is similar to what ARod did. It's wrong.
Let me tell you what I do in that situation with the other team and you tell me if I have honor or not. If there is a popup near the fence and the other team is going after it I yell "fence". I don't yell "out of play", "foul ball" or anything like that because that is going to cause the kid to pull up and it falls in - to me that is wrong. I yell "fence" because if the other coach has done his job the player will recognize I am warning him about the fence and he can start to pull up safely while still going for the ball. I am not going to keep quiet because if I keep my mouth shut then that kid may run full speed into the fence and get hurt. I teach my guys to talk to one another when the fence is near - I can't guarantee that for everyone else.
If I yell "fence" and the kid stops and the ball drops that is the other coaches fault or if he still goes into the fence full head of steam and gets hurt that is the other coaches fault for not teaching his guy that simple thing.
I tell you this story to give you an idea that I do have honor because I am not going to "win at all costs". I want to make sure none of the kids get hurt.
Trojan Skipper said it pretty well that in baseball you have to pay attention. If a kid doesn't pay attention and gets tagged out either the coach failed in teaching the kid to pay attention or the kid brainfarted and messed up. Either way you the kid should learn to pay attention.
Yes I am rationalizing in my examples because that is what the trick play in discussion is - rational. Baseball is about tricking the other team in order to get an advantage. That is sports and life - get the advantage to get the win. There are right ways to do it and there are wrong ways to do it. Just because I am forcing someone to pay attention doesn't make me without honor.
Honor is like morals - it's open to various interpretations. What I think is honorable might not be honorable to someone else. Obviously this is a great example of that.
Let me ask you this - is hitting a player from the other team in retaliatation honorable? I don't think so - I think it's garbage.
What if your team on their own ran the play of pitcher faking and CF falling down? You had no knowledge they had worked on it on their own and decided at the next game they were going to run it. Well is that honorable? You said it should be left up to the guys to "pitch, hit, field, throw" and adults stay out of it. What do you there?
Also, after rereading your post you put words in my mouth -
quote:When my oldest played in the hometown LL Championship, a foul ball drifted towards the visitors dugout. Our third baseman broke off chase when the adult coach in the visitors dugout shouted, "I got it". According to your rationalization, that is a defensible action.
In none of my examples above did I even come close to rationalizing this. You just don't like the fact that these plays exist and you want to lump coaches who use them as the bad coaches - or is that me putting works into your mouth?
quote:In reality, that coach was an a$$.
Does the fact I use this one play make me an a$$? I happen to be pretty well respected in my region. I know some parents who would agree with it but the guys I coach against I doubt they would agree with it.
spizzlepop is dumbfounded by the amount of tricks played on Hawaii by the long beaked bugeaters. Tricked into thinking that SoCal would be warm and sunny. Tricked into thinking the ball doesn't fly in thick smoggy air. Tricked into thinking that the 'Bows had any chance at all of being competitive against the highly touted snouted ones from Irvine.
When the home team starts adding double digit insurance runs, it's time to raid the local watering holes. There was much spillage and blundering, and we surely made a sizable dent in the local tequila reserves.
Please don't pity me Bullwinkle, and SSM don't you dare pinch me for not wearing green today. For now I must return to the land of aloha to search for my own avatar. I will find true warmth in the ohana spirit, and comfort in the taste of some fine ahi poke.
Aloha
When the home team starts adding double digit insurance runs, it's time to raid the local watering holes. There was much spillage and blundering, and we surely made a sizable dent in the local tequila reserves.
Please don't pity me Bullwinkle, and SSM don't you dare pinch me for not wearing green today. For now I must return to the land of aloha to search for my own avatar. I will find true warmth in the ohana spirit, and comfort in the taste of some fine ahi poke.
Aloha
My o My, and kiss my blarney stone...don't you look marvelous....Sizzlepop looks great in Blue and Gold, it's as if you born to wear eater blues...but I need to correct your quote...
I will find true warmth in the Omaha Spirit, and comfort in the taste of some fine mid western corn.
My favorite play was during the 6 inning break on Friday....the loveable "Peter the Anteater" laid on his back on the Raindow Warriors dugout...then had a child toss a hula hoop on his snout for a gift certificate....right as she tossed the hula hoop...sizzlepop yelled "I GOT IT"....she got scared and missed....I thought that was bush play.
quote:I will find true warmth in the ohana spirit, and comfort in the taste of some fine ahi poke.
I will find true warmth in the Omaha Spirit, and comfort in the taste of some fine mid western corn.
My favorite play was during the 6 inning break on Friday....the loveable "Peter the Anteater" laid on his back on the Raindow Warriors dugout...then had a child toss a hula hoop on his snout for a gift certificate....right as she tossed the hula hoop...sizzlepop yelled "I GOT IT"....she got scared and missed....I thought that was bush play.
I was trying merely trying to save the young lady's reputation. Peter was NOT using his nose for the ring toss game.
BTW, Alces. I was very impressed with the UCI speech and debate team taking attendance at the game for extra credit. Bueller, Bueller, Bueller.....
BTW, Alces. I was very impressed with the UCI speech and debate team taking attendance at the game for extra credit. Bueller, Bueller, Bueller.....
Was it his day off?
Fo' schizzle,
My nizzle, what you sizzle spizzel?
Fo' schizzle, dizzle pizzle bizzel ozzlez,
Izzle bizzle fo’ schizzle.
Translation:
For sure,
My goodness, what you saying sizzlepop?
For sure, don’t place blame others,
It’s bush for sure.
My nizzle, what you sizzle spizzel?
Fo' schizzle, dizzle pizzle bizzel ozzlez,
Izzle bizzle fo’ schizzle.
Translation:
For sure,
My goodness, what you saying sizzlepop?
For sure, don’t place blame others,
It’s bush for sure.
fo' shizzle my crizzle! what the fizzuck is up wit dat bush? and what's for dinner?
Sounds like you've had a schnootfull Woody 
Here is a good trick play. Have your kids practice picking the ball up when it is hit hitting it when it is pitched and throw strikes. works every time.