Yardbird the MLB would embrace anything that would make/save them money period.
I have seen your video and I would rather walk down main st naked than throw like that.
Yardbird did you look at my son's video. Curious to hear what you think he is doing that is risky.
Good luck, Yardbird.
I have said this before... I believe that Mike Marshall started out with completely honorable intentions about analyzing the reasons for injury among pitchers and designing mechanics that might reduce injury rates while at the same time prove effective at the highest levels of competition.
Unfortunately, as he consistently failed to produce any effective pitching mechanics from his ideas over the long years, Marshall has shown himself completely willing to bluster, blather, and outright lie to his few sad followers.
Most of his little core of true-believers will literally swallow any of the unmitigated blarney that MM slings at them, without any critical analysis at all. On the other hand, careful readers (takes a strong stomach) of MM's Q&A can certainly see the signs of prolonged disappointment for themselves.
Is every word MM says a lie? No, assuredly not. But most of his ravings and rantings these days are nothing but self-serving rationalization for all of his, and his poor students', vast string of failures.
Tommy John was completely aware of Mike Marshall's pitchers looked like before giving them tryouts for the Bridgeport Bluefish. Although Marshall is now apparently angry at TJ's "one-sided" friendship, I'm pretty sure that Tommy John must have bent over backward to give Sparks and Williams a chance to make the roster of his indie team. That Marshallites would now pull the "conspiracy" card out on TJ is even sadder than the rest of their nonsensical baloney.
I have said this before... I believe that Mike Marshall started out with completely honorable intentions about analyzing the reasons for injury among pitchers and designing mechanics that might reduce injury rates while at the same time prove effective at the highest levels of competition.
Unfortunately, as he consistently failed to produce any effective pitching mechanics from his ideas over the long years, Marshall has shown himself completely willing to bluster, blather, and outright lie to his few sad followers.
Most of his little core of true-believers will literally swallow any of the unmitigated blarney that MM slings at them, without any critical analysis at all. On the other hand, careful readers (takes a strong stomach) of MM's Q&A can certainly see the signs of prolonged disappointment for themselves.
Is every word MM says a lie? No, assuredly not. But most of his ravings and rantings these days are nothing but self-serving rationalization for all of his, and his poor students', vast string of failures.
Tommy John was completely aware of Mike Marshall's pitchers looked like before giving them tryouts for the Bridgeport Bluefish. Although Marshall is now apparently angry at TJ's "one-sided" friendship, I'm pretty sure that Tommy John must have bent over backward to give Sparks and Williams a chance to make the roster of his indie team. That Marshallites would now pull the "conspiracy" card out on TJ is even sadder than the rest of their nonsensical baloney.
"They would have to admit they have been teaching destructive mechanics and their pitch count blame would have to go away!"
I don't hear MLB talking pitch count (As a "Blame issue")...that is a "hyper-liability avoidance measure" by Little League, yes you hear about pitch count in MLB but it is a realatively new factor..IMO more injected by the media than MLB(You never heard of Bob Gibsons or Fergie Jenkins pitch counts)...and as I said over-coming that degree of greed, think about it this way Yard...I've got enough money to spin it any way I want...I could pay for enough PR to make it look like "I" invented Mike Marshall if it's going to make me enough canola to be worth it...I wouldn't have to admit a thing..heck it was "Part of the natual evolution of the game" or some other blather...who cares if I'm making the money I can call it what-ever..Make me look darn compassionate too..heck they might even name the mechanic after my altuistic self...come on these are sophisticated business men..where does the truth come into that equation?
"Bill Peterson is a great guy"
Yes he is, and you seem to be a decent fella also..My point exactly.
And I didn't say you were charged for anything..just that every single person who has made the "Marshall jump" says the same..."Lets frighten and make folks feel the impending doom" (At one point even saying traditional teachers of the art were child abusers) which I find to the hysterical side of ridiculous on it's face (Again athletic motion at the very highest levels risks injury..in football it's 100%), and at the same time say that they (Marshall et al) are "just about to break through and radically change the art" it just never materializes. I'm not emotional about it, the evidence doesn't exist...Sparks is getting a little long in the tooth by now...and he's been ridden for years. Give me 95-100 mph and "amazing breaking stuff and no injury"...not excuses..produce.
I am an engineer by trade, I understand science..I have a son with a very bright future in the art, he's been and remains free of injury, I advocate a particular approach and have had success...will he get to MLB? Who knows..it is his goal and dream, I'll facillitate it as best I can, I'll share my experience and maybe a drop of wisdom that has fallen into my unworthy lap along the way. I remain willing to listen and believe that wisdom in our art can be gleaned from even the most unlikely sources and places and am open minded enough to listen to all willing to speak about it. I just ask that you give me a little more than a marketing statement in order to assess on my own if it has validity..I've yet to get that from the proponents of this particular method.
I don't hear MLB talking pitch count (As a "Blame issue")...that is a "hyper-liability avoidance measure" by Little League, yes you hear about pitch count in MLB but it is a realatively new factor..IMO more injected by the media than MLB(You never heard of Bob Gibsons or Fergie Jenkins pitch counts)...and as I said over-coming that degree of greed, think about it this way Yard...I've got enough money to spin it any way I want...I could pay for enough PR to make it look like "I" invented Mike Marshall if it's going to make me enough canola to be worth it...I wouldn't have to admit a thing..heck it was "Part of the natual evolution of the game" or some other blather...who cares if I'm making the money I can call it what-ever..Make me look darn compassionate too..heck they might even name the mechanic after my altuistic self...come on these are sophisticated business men..where does the truth come into that equation?
"Bill Peterson is a great guy"
Yes he is, and you seem to be a decent fella also..My point exactly.
And I didn't say you were charged for anything..just that every single person who has made the "Marshall jump" says the same..."Lets frighten and make folks feel the impending doom" (At one point even saying traditional teachers of the art were child abusers) which I find to the hysterical side of ridiculous on it's face (Again athletic motion at the very highest levels risks injury..in football it's 100%), and at the same time say that they (Marshall et al) are "just about to break through and radically change the art" it just never materializes. I'm not emotional about it, the evidence doesn't exist...Sparks is getting a little long in the tooth by now...and he's been ridden for years. Give me 95-100 mph and "amazing breaking stuff and no injury"...not excuses..produce.
I am an engineer by trade, I understand science..I have a son with a very bright future in the art, he's been and remains free of injury, I advocate a particular approach and have had success...will he get to MLB? Who knows..it is his goal and dream, I'll facillitate it as best I can, I'll share my experience and maybe a drop of wisdom that has fallen into my unworthy lap along the way. I remain willing to listen and believe that wisdom in our art can be gleaned from even the most unlikely sources and places and am open minded enough to listen to all willing to speak about it. I just ask that you give me a little more than a marketing statement in order to assess on my own if it has validity..I've yet to get that from the proponents of this particular method.
quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:
Roger Thomas,
That’s great, now they will do all the work Marshall started 40 years ago and just recently concluded. Then they will come up with the same conclusions.
Ok, I'll just give Tom a call and tell him and Dr. Andrews not to bother because Mike has already figured out everything there is to know.
By the way, there's no "h" in "Tomas".
BobbleheadDoll,
“Yardbird the MLB would embrace anything that would make/save them money period.”
Then with only a two or three man starting rotation plus a smaller bullpen plus no injuries they will save a fortune.
“I have seen your video and I would rather walk down main st naked than throw like that”.
Maybe this is why I’m paranoid?
”Yardbird did you look at my son's video.”
Yes,
“Curious to hear what you think he is doing that is risky.”
While evaluating 30 frames a second video is a fools game when viewing ballistic activities I could take a stab at it but since you comment on Marshall’s mechanics like
you have first hand knowledge, you already now what they are. The question you need to ask yourself is from what you have learned over at Marshalls site is how many of his tenets will you ignore and has your son himself seen the Marshall information?
Your son has very graceful and mature stance and beginning of his traditional delivery.
Non-injurious.
His leg lift causes him to over early rotate his hips and shoulders past the line between second base and the dish. When you apply initial forward rotational force from this position you automatically start a centrifugal affect on your arm.
Injuries set up from this starting point are many, shoulder at early drive and elbow slam at late drive.
I clicked through one frame at a time and could not tell where he took his ball arm back to but I thought he took it back with his elbow tucked low with his hand on top, this is known as the waiters position. Starting his initial forward force application from there will cause him to throw up to get the ball over his head that makes his forearm loop around his head like Mark Pryor.
All his forward momentum comes to a complete stop when he plants his foot then he throws the ball with his foot locked in. This coupled with his back bend cause knee, hip and lower back problems.
His finishing arm drive looks pronated but again you get one blurry frame to see.
One injury-canceling thing he does is he gets on top very well.
This is classic “Traditional mechanics” done very well.
Did he balk on the third pitch?
That’s non injurious
God, I wish I had him for two years!
LaFlippen,
“Unfortunately, consistently failed any effective pitching mechanics willing to bluster, blather, and outright lie, sad followers. unmitigated blarney, without any critical analysis at all. (takes a strong stomach) prolonged disappointment.
every word MM says a lie, ravings and rantings self-serving rationalization, poor students', vast string of failures. "conspiracy nonsensical baloney”
Ouch!! That’s wrong and that ain’t right!
He takes injured pitchers like Sparks with his three times torn UCL and put him in the bigs makes that statement sound like it should be reversed to the haters side. I guess you will have to blame the Rays minor league system for not recognizing Sparks’s ability faults before he got his cup a coffee.
Many of my Marshall pitchers have won awards like all league, all CIF and set records at all levels including College. I don’t think any of your snotty statements have merit.
jdfromFla,
It’s easy to see the MLB pitchers are slowly going over to Marshalls stuff and every year they get closer and closer with out the help of their pitching coaches. Notice how all of a sudden many of them are turning the ball over.
You sure are an pleasant easy read.
Roger Tomas,
Why would you think that a repair surgeon knows anything about athletic biomechanics?
when he is not researching any thing. Do you think he spends any time over at ASMI, he’s to busy cutting and drilling on traditional mechanic followers Like Tom’s.
Dr.Andrews put his name on ASMI’s study (survey with elite pitchers) that recommended the current LL pitch counts that already have been known to fail again.
Sorry about the name!!
“Yardbird the MLB would embrace anything that would make/save them money period.”
Then with only a two or three man starting rotation plus a smaller bullpen plus no injuries they will save a fortune.
“I have seen your video and I would rather walk down main st naked than throw like that”.
Maybe this is why I’m paranoid?
”Yardbird did you look at my son's video.”
Yes,
“Curious to hear what you think he is doing that is risky.”
While evaluating 30 frames a second video is a fools game when viewing ballistic activities I could take a stab at it but since you comment on Marshall’s mechanics like
you have first hand knowledge, you already now what they are. The question you need to ask yourself is from what you have learned over at Marshalls site is how many of his tenets will you ignore and has your son himself seen the Marshall information?
Your son has very graceful and mature stance and beginning of his traditional delivery.
Non-injurious.
His leg lift causes him to over early rotate his hips and shoulders past the line between second base and the dish. When you apply initial forward rotational force from this position you automatically start a centrifugal affect on your arm.
Injuries set up from this starting point are many, shoulder at early drive and elbow slam at late drive.
I clicked through one frame at a time and could not tell where he took his ball arm back to but I thought he took it back with his elbow tucked low with his hand on top, this is known as the waiters position. Starting his initial forward force application from there will cause him to throw up to get the ball over his head that makes his forearm loop around his head like Mark Pryor.
All his forward momentum comes to a complete stop when he plants his foot then he throws the ball with his foot locked in. This coupled with his back bend cause knee, hip and lower back problems.
His finishing arm drive looks pronated but again you get one blurry frame to see.
One injury-canceling thing he does is he gets on top very well.
This is classic “Traditional mechanics” done very well.
Did he balk on the third pitch?
That’s non injurious
God, I wish I had him for two years!
LaFlippen,
“Unfortunately, consistently failed any effective pitching mechanics willing to bluster, blather, and outright lie, sad followers. unmitigated blarney, without any critical analysis at all. (takes a strong stomach) prolonged disappointment.
every word MM says a lie, ravings and rantings self-serving rationalization, poor students', vast string of failures. "conspiracy nonsensical baloney”
Ouch!! That’s wrong and that ain’t right!
He takes injured pitchers like Sparks with his three times torn UCL and put him in the bigs makes that statement sound like it should be reversed to the haters side. I guess you will have to blame the Rays minor league system for not recognizing Sparks’s ability faults before he got his cup a coffee.
Many of my Marshall pitchers have won awards like all league, all CIF and set records at all levels including College. I don’t think any of your snotty statements have merit.
jdfromFla,
It’s easy to see the MLB pitchers are slowly going over to Marshalls stuff and every year they get closer and closer with out the help of their pitching coaches. Notice how all of a sudden many of them are turning the ball over.
You sure are an pleasant easy read.
Roger Tomas,
Why would you think that a repair surgeon knows anything about athletic biomechanics?
when he is not researching any thing. Do you think he spends any time over at ASMI, he’s to busy cutting and drilling on traditional mechanic followers Like Tom’s.
Dr.Andrews put his name on ASMI’s study (survey with elite pitchers) that recommended the current LL pitch counts that already have been known to fail again.
Sorry about the name!!
Yardbird you wouldn't have him for 2 minutes let alone 2 years.
That video is from 5 years ago when he was turning 17. He has never had the slightest pain and has never missed a minute od pitching due to injury.
He was a junk ball pitcher who threw mainly CB since he was 10. He was over used and has pitched 4 times in 5 days including a couple MLB tryouts. His FB was 83-84 and which is not real hard but effective with the other pitches. He is the poster boy for over use playing on as many as 4 teams in one season at a time. He had checkups at least twice a year by Dr John Gleddie who was a P coach for the Rangers and worked on some of the top pitchers in MLB. He is the 1st to tell you that MLB pitchers are not always using good mechanics.
After every checkup which I am present for he rates my sons shoulder/arm health as excellent. He explains with the aid of diagrams what causes problems and where the key issues are. He then takes my son through his delivery motion and tweaks any thing that is not perfect.
John was offered a D1 coaching job last year but turned it down due to work commitments. This guy knows what he is talking about and he has been my sons doc since he was 10 yo.
The truth is that pitchers stray from good mechanics in an attempt to get their velocity up. I always kept my son in check videoing most of his games and discussing any issues. My sons mechanics were not only safe but allowed him to keep his pitches down in the thigh knee area. In the years from 10 to 20 he had only given up 5 HRs. That included 1 yr of college, 4 years of elite BB, HSVarsity and pitching against senior elite teams. Last year in college he only gave up 3 extra base hits in 35 innings and had the second lowest era and lowest obs on his team. This year he is awful.
He is a JR in college and for the 1st time I am concern about his mechanics. He is throwing batting practice. I told him you know its your mechanics when it doesn't matter who the opponent is. It could be the girls chess club and you would still get beat up.
He now knows what I am talking about and is watching the other pitchers. Pitchers that sttart out great and then start flying open falling off the mound. One pitcher he watched fell apart in the 3rd inning and my son told him what I saw him do and he adjusted and went on to have a great outting after that. Another who was like my son had a great year last year and was horrible this year. He made the adjustment and has had a great last few weeks.
Pitchers mechanics break down. That why teams need a P coach that knows what they are looking for.
My son's video that you looked at doesn't need frame by frame analysis. You just have to know what you are looking for. Unfortuately you are blinded by your befiefs.
House has the best analysis of pitching mechanics. Dr John Gleddie is his friend from the old Ranger days and collarborates with him on the Pitchers Edge Series.
That video is from 5 years ago when he was turning 17. He has never had the slightest pain and has never missed a minute od pitching due to injury.
He was a junk ball pitcher who threw mainly CB since he was 10. He was over used and has pitched 4 times in 5 days including a couple MLB tryouts. His FB was 83-84 and which is not real hard but effective with the other pitches. He is the poster boy for over use playing on as many as 4 teams in one season at a time. He had checkups at least twice a year by Dr John Gleddie who was a P coach for the Rangers and worked on some of the top pitchers in MLB. He is the 1st to tell you that MLB pitchers are not always using good mechanics.
After every checkup which I am present for he rates my sons shoulder/arm health as excellent. He explains with the aid of diagrams what causes problems and where the key issues are. He then takes my son through his delivery motion and tweaks any thing that is not perfect.
John was offered a D1 coaching job last year but turned it down due to work commitments. This guy knows what he is talking about and he has been my sons doc since he was 10 yo.
The truth is that pitchers stray from good mechanics in an attempt to get their velocity up. I always kept my son in check videoing most of his games and discussing any issues. My sons mechanics were not only safe but allowed him to keep his pitches down in the thigh knee area. In the years from 10 to 20 he had only given up 5 HRs. That included 1 yr of college, 4 years of elite BB, HSVarsity and pitching against senior elite teams. Last year in college he only gave up 3 extra base hits in 35 innings and had the second lowest era and lowest obs on his team. This year he is awful.
He is a JR in college and for the 1st time I am concern about his mechanics. He is throwing batting practice. I told him you know its your mechanics when it doesn't matter who the opponent is. It could be the girls chess club and you would still get beat up.
He now knows what I am talking about and is watching the other pitchers. Pitchers that sttart out great and then start flying open falling off the mound. One pitcher he watched fell apart in the 3rd inning and my son told him what I saw him do and he adjusted and went on to have a great outting after that. Another who was like my son had a great year last year and was horrible this year. He made the adjustment and has had a great last few weeks.
Pitchers mechanics break down. That why teams need a P coach that knows what they are looking for.
My son's video that you looked at doesn't need frame by frame analysis. You just have to know what you are looking for. Unfortuately you are blinded by your befiefs.
House has the best analysis of pitching mechanics. Dr John Gleddie is his friend from the old Ranger days and collarborates with him on the Pitchers Edge Series.
Another good post going south due to Marshall mechanics vs. traditional.
BHD,
You asked for YB's advice on your son's video, he gave it. What did you expect.
Stop adding fuel to the fire.
Thanks.
BHD,
You asked for YB's advice on your son's video, he gave it. What did you expect.
Stop adding fuel to the fire.
Thanks.
TPM I expected what I got. Lets be correct I didn't ask for his advice, I asked for his opinion.
It shows how off his views are. His assertions about Traditional Mechanics are totally bogus.
I think the discussion is a good one and it has been civil. I also agree that Yardbird believes what he preaches and we cetainly won't change his mind.
Let me mention a couple comments. Where do you see balk on the 3rd pitch. That is the leadoff batter in the 1st inning and he never stops once he starts forward. Also his stride foot is almost landed when he starts forward so his shoulders and hips are open until his stride foot is about an inch off the gound. I have single shots showing this from the
side.
He also says he can't see where his hand gets back to. How come I can see it clearly at regular speed.
This is totally contradictory to Yardbirds remarks.
It shows how off his views are. His assertions about Traditional Mechanics are totally bogus.
I think the discussion is a good one and it has been civil. I also agree that Yardbird believes what he preaches and we cetainly won't change his mind.
Let me mention a couple comments. Where do you see balk on the 3rd pitch. That is the leadoff batter in the 1st inning and he never stops once he starts forward. Also his stride foot is almost landed when he starts forward so his shoulders and hips are open until his stride foot is about an inch off the gound. I have single shots showing this from the
side.
He also says he can't see where his hand gets back to. How come I can see it clearly at regular speed.
This is totally contradictory to Yardbirds remarks.
Yardbird
I grow very, very tired of hearing Marshall followers critique traditional pitchers and point out the "flaws". They are only flaws when compared to Marshall's theories, and I do mean "theories".
Some of Marshall's guys on another board are probably tired of seeing me say this but I find the term "Marshall pitchers" to be completely bogus! Show me one, just one, example of a pitcher using a straight drive line. You can't. It hasn't happened yet or at least nobody is willing to show one. His site shows videos of pitchers using the same looping arm action that you criticize in traditional pitchers. The response I got was "Oh, it's a problem of "proprioceptive awareness" and "we just can't seem to break those old, horrible habits from years of traditional pitching". The straight drive line is one of the biggest things Marshall writes about and he criticizes his students on his dvd's because they don't do it.
Show me a pitcher who does it and then we'll see the results. Until then, you cannot say you or anybody else even uses "Marshall mechanics". You may use some of it but you do not use this important part.
Until I see one person utilizing a straight drive line, as Marshall writes about it, all talk of how great his method is becomes pointless.
I grow very, very tired of hearing Marshall followers critique traditional pitchers and point out the "flaws". They are only flaws when compared to Marshall's theories, and I do mean "theories".
Some of Marshall's guys on another board are probably tired of seeing me say this but I find the term "Marshall pitchers" to be completely bogus! Show me one, just one, example of a pitcher using a straight drive line. You can't. It hasn't happened yet or at least nobody is willing to show one. His site shows videos of pitchers using the same looping arm action that you criticize in traditional pitchers. The response I got was "Oh, it's a problem of "proprioceptive awareness" and "we just can't seem to break those old, horrible habits from years of traditional pitching". The straight drive line is one of the biggest things Marshall writes about and he criticizes his students on his dvd's because they don't do it.
Show me a pitcher who does it and then we'll see the results. Until then, you cannot say you or anybody else even uses "Marshall mechanics". You may use some of it but you do not use this important part.
Until I see one person utilizing a straight drive line, as Marshall writes about it, all talk of how great his method is becomes pointless.
BobbleheadDoll,
OK, that means I can have him for 1 min. 59 secs. When do we start?
After all that did you mention what keeps him injury free mechanically.I mentioned that he gets his Elbow up well; this protects many areas of injurious concern.I saw every thing you saw in the video this is why I said he goes to the Waiters position.
You can tell nothing from Stills! I also never hurt myself but can analyze my mechanics from 40 years ago and say for certainty which mechanical parts are injurious. These flaws in me did not manifest themselves until I was 35. I am now 54 and pitch between 800 and 1200 pitches a day, 300 of those are maximum effort using Marshall’s tenets.
I had no idea you used Tom Houses methods when you asked me to critique you son’s injurious flaws when I mentioned Mark Pryor who had Houses mechanics perfected.
Of the aprox. 100 pitchers I work with I have 8 (all under 14 YO) that use Full Marshall mechanics, that is Bottom half and top half. I have about 80% that use top half Marshall tenets and bottom half traditional acquiescing leg lift( Traditional). I have about 18 % still use full traditional mechanics. The traditional pitchers have all the same problems
Everybody else has. The Marshall pitchers both full and acquiesers have none of these problems and can pitch every day.
You can balk with no runners on! The umpire gives you an added ball. Your son took his sign from the wind up position then took his hand out of the glove then put it back in, Balk? This was not to cut up your son. I’ll bet that was the only time he has ever done it.
The reason your son does well with out velocity should be a lesson for everybody! I consider 84 good velocity. Most 17 YO's throw between 78 and 82.
Dm59,
You are confusing the loop I speak of. You are talking about driveline that Marshall pitchers do not perform exact but get closer than traditional pitchers. The loop I’m talking about is early transition before forward acceleration. This flaw causes Labrum and front of shoulder problems like Pryor has.
OK, that means I can have him for 1 min. 59 secs. When do we start?
After all that did you mention what keeps him injury free mechanically.I mentioned that he gets his Elbow up well; this protects many areas of injurious concern.I saw every thing you saw in the video this is why I said he goes to the Waiters position.
You can tell nothing from Stills! I also never hurt myself but can analyze my mechanics from 40 years ago and say for certainty which mechanical parts are injurious. These flaws in me did not manifest themselves until I was 35. I am now 54 and pitch between 800 and 1200 pitches a day, 300 of those are maximum effort using Marshall’s tenets.
I had no idea you used Tom Houses methods when you asked me to critique you son’s injurious flaws when I mentioned Mark Pryor who had Houses mechanics perfected.
Of the aprox. 100 pitchers I work with I have 8 (all under 14 YO) that use Full Marshall mechanics, that is Bottom half and top half. I have about 80% that use top half Marshall tenets and bottom half traditional acquiescing leg lift( Traditional). I have about 18 % still use full traditional mechanics. The traditional pitchers have all the same problems
Everybody else has. The Marshall pitchers both full and acquiesers have none of these problems and can pitch every day.
You can balk with no runners on! The umpire gives you an added ball. Your son took his sign from the wind up position then took his hand out of the glove then put it back in, Balk? This was not to cut up your son. I’ll bet that was the only time he has ever done it.
The reason your son does well with out velocity should be a lesson for everybody! I consider 84 good velocity. Most 17 YO's throw between 78 and 82.
Dm59,
You are confusing the loop I speak of. You are talking about driveline that Marshall pitchers do not perform exact but get closer than traditional pitchers. The loop I’m talking about is early transition before forward acceleration. This flaw causes Labrum and front of shoulder problems like Pryor has.
quote:This flaw causes Labrum and front of shoulder problems like Pryor has.
Poor Mark Prior....You need to go over to Letstalkpitching, this absolutely bogus rap has been destroyed...When you take a liner off of your elbow and a compression fracture happens or when you run into the very solid Marcus Giles...which caused the sholder issue, well it ain't got a thing to do with proported "bad" mechanics. I'm not a House-ite...but baloney in an other than Oscar Meyers package is still baloney. These aren't speculative injuries that I think because of x, y or z...I witnessed them.
Or better yet I'll bring over the thread in which O'Leary was taken to task on the issue. No evidence just impressions...abducted elbow...blah blah blah.
Look back in an hour.
On second thought I'll just let my statement stand...To me it is very telling when instead of carrying the day with the merits of what program you offer, one has to attempt to de-legitimize somebody else...(I always note that Tom House has never dignifiied this lame attack on his saying Prior had good mechs..he ignores it..hummm)speaks of weakness not strength in ones own beliefs IMO. It only worked for Edison against Tesla...most other times it is just plain bad form.
And before TPM gets after me about Chris again...I started that thread and had a give and take with Mr O'Leary which was substantial and productive...unfortunately within the same thread I put off two of our very valued posters because I requested decorum towards Chris and they were very virolent to him...
Yardbird,
Either you don't pay very close attention to what you read, or else perhaps you tend to project your own foregone conclusions onto the words of others.
Here is what I said:
Here is what you quoted me as saying:
"...every word MM says a lie"
IMO, it is very characteristic of Marshall's cult followers that there is little or no evidence of ability for critical thought or self-examination to be found among them. Typical of any insular cult, the followers are all too willing to let the cult chieftan do their thinking for them.
Either you don't pay very close attention to what you read, or else perhaps you tend to project your own foregone conclusions onto the words of others.
Here is what I said:
quote:Is every word MM says a lie? No, assuredly not.
Here is what you quoted me as saying:
"...every word MM says a lie"
IMO, it is very characteristic of Marshall's cult followers that there is little or no evidence of ability for critical thought or self-examination to be found among them. Typical of any insular cult, the followers are all too willing to let the cult chieftan do their thinking for them.
Yarbird when I say you wouldn't have him for 2 mins means 0 mins.
Yes you can balk with no one on. What you are looking at is when the batter stepped out of the box. That is why he took his hand out of the glove.
Yes you can balk with no one on. What you are looking at is when the batter stepped out of the box. That is why he took his hand out of the glove.
Yardbird stills can tell you a lot. It can tell you haw you alignment is. The terrible habits that he has picked up are clearly evident in the stills. Also the separating of the upper body from his arm slot as he pulls off to his right.
I am a proponent of squaring up after releasing out front. I believe that bending at the waist as you drive towards home and endiong up with your head fixed on the target is the best way to finish. The stills how him upright and off to the side with his back towards 1st base. I clipped a shot of him looking back at a ball that went behing him and he was totally out of position. He is also not in a position to protect himself on a hard comebacker.
I disagree with most of you evaluation. I just pointed out a couple things.
I am a proponent of squaring up after releasing out front. I believe that bending at the waist as you drive towards home and endiong up with your head fixed on the target is the best way to finish. The stills how him upright and off to the side with his back towards 1st base. I clipped a shot of him looking back at a ball that went behing him and he was totally out of position. He is also not in a position to protect himself on a hard comebacker.
I disagree with most of you evaluation. I just pointed out a couple things.
Actually, I'm not referring to any of your uses of the word "loop". I'm speaking of the actual loop that occurs in all of the video examples of so-called Marshall pitchers. Look at the videos from the open side. Now, parallel (mostly) to the sagittal plane, you'll notice that there is a huge arcing motion up and over toward and beyond release. You might convince me that this large arc is in a plane that's more aligned between second and home but another of your colleagues has confirmed to me that Marshall's teachings do not allow for an expanded "driveline" to become a drive "plane" with a big arc on that.quote:Originally posted by Yardbird: Dm59,
You are confusing the loop I speak of. You are talking about driveline that Marshall pitchers do not perform exact but get closer than traditional pitchers.
So, I'm still waiting for a video and some objective evidence of performance when someone actually drives the ball in a straight line from the "ready position" to release. I keep reading how you're getting close or, as you say, closer than traditional pitchers. Straight, it ain't. An arc by any other name... You tilt your shoulders to the glove side significantly in order to get it "on plane" but it still isn't "straight".
I also hear about how dreadfully inefficient an arcing motion is and that Marshall's pitchers are using so much more efficient motions to apply force because of the elimination of the arcing motion of the traditional pitchers. There is such a lack of logic in this that I find it frustrating when I hear Marshall advocates condemning traditionalists for their inefficiencies in their motion... but ... I have yet to see an example of the real teachings of Marshall.
Jdfromfla,
Well I guess your group got it all figured out, Pryors shoulder problems go back long before his San Diego re-occurring problems.
“one has to attempt to de-legitimize somebody else”. House is legit, his problem is that he teaches a form of traditional mechanics that with every pitch injures the arm and shoulder, I live in SoCal where house practices his yearly changes in mechanics and I have witnessed the destruction.
You comparing Nicola Tesla the greatest inventor of all time to Marshall might be a stretch but is apropos.
Chris is an anecdotal researcher like ASMI and NPA but he is a good guy. And means well!
Bobbleheaddoll,
Fair enough.
Laflippen,
“don't pay very close attention, foregone conclusions, cult followers, no evidence of ability for critical thought or self-examination, insular cult, cult chieftan”.
That was informative, If I had used those words I would now be gone!
“Is every word MM says a lie? No, assuredly not.”- Wagging the dog! I know what you meant.
Are you now going to say something that helps our kids? Maybe how exactly injuries are caused?
Dm59,
You keep banging the same drum, now over here, was your repeated post for me or the other posters. You know the video at Marshall’s site that we are privileged to see is training video that Marshall says the same things about what you have said. Let it go, We know this is a difficult element and has nothing to do with the subject of “what exactly causes injuries.”?
I have given everybody here in as short a sentence line as possible what Marshall believes causes major pitching injuries and how to fix them. I don’t see any body giving us any information from their favorite Guru although they are putting together some studies. Where’s the Beef? Marshall has given all of his material for anyone to look at for free, I see nobody else doing that. Marshall is 40 years ahead in research done at his own expense then just gives it away and I have thoroughly tested it personally, it works and very well.
Well I guess your group got it all figured out, Pryors shoulder problems go back long before his San Diego re-occurring problems.
“one has to attempt to de-legitimize somebody else”. House is legit, his problem is that he teaches a form of traditional mechanics that with every pitch injures the arm and shoulder, I live in SoCal where house practices his yearly changes in mechanics and I have witnessed the destruction.
You comparing Nicola Tesla the greatest inventor of all time to Marshall might be a stretch but is apropos.
Chris is an anecdotal researcher like ASMI and NPA but he is a good guy. And means well!
Bobbleheaddoll,
Fair enough.
Laflippen,
“don't pay very close attention, foregone conclusions, cult followers, no evidence of ability for critical thought or self-examination, insular cult, cult chieftan”.
That was informative, If I had used those words I would now be gone!
“Is every word MM says a lie? No, assuredly not.”- Wagging the dog! I know what you meant.
Are you now going to say something that helps our kids? Maybe how exactly injuries are caused?
Dm59,
You keep banging the same drum, now over here, was your repeated post for me or the other posters. You know the video at Marshall’s site that we are privileged to see is training video that Marshall says the same things about what you have said. Let it go, We know this is a difficult element and has nothing to do with the subject of “what exactly causes injuries.”?
I have given everybody here in as short a sentence line as possible what Marshall believes causes major pitching injuries and how to fix them. I don’t see any body giving us any information from their favorite Guru although they are putting together some studies. Where’s the Beef? Marshall has given all of his material for anyone to look at for free, I see nobody else doing that. Marshall is 40 years ahead in research done at his own expense then just gives it away and I have thoroughly tested it personally, it works and very well.
Where is the beef? You marshall followers should be asking yourselves that question.
quote:You comparing Nicola Tesla the greatest inventor of all time to Marshall might be a stretch but is apropos.
And what did Edison (Who I consider the greatest "Resoucist" of all time) do? He de-legitimized Tesla because what he offered was inferior. Just the same way that those who point to Pryor say that House is wrong or a poor coach or whatever the implication you may be attempting to convey..you are far to intelligent a person not to see this point and I can only surmise that by tap dancing around it that you cannot refute it. My group? Nope just me a simple fan who actually witnessed the events. Dress the pig in anyway you wish...he still oinks. You don't have to be a scientist to see the sun rise.
And yes they go all the way back to Chicago, a night game between the Cubs and Braves...Pryor running into Giles on the base paths... I saw it and then right after the injured shoulder was repaired...a line drive off of the right elbow. Mechanics no, physics yes.
You and the other Marshall advocates who post on these forums continually "beat the same drum" about how inefficient the traditional, arcing motion is at generating velocity. If you can't even show one example of a "full Marshall" pitcher, then your comments are baseless.quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:
Dm59,
You keep banging the same drum, now over here, was your repeated post for me or the other posters.
You miss my point. The Marshall followers will not "let it go" when it comes to comments about the inefficiencies in the traditional motion. Why is it that I need to "let it go" but you can continually make statements that are unsupported. This is why I "banging the same drum".quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:You know the video at Marshall’s site that we are privileged to see is training video that Marshall says the same things about what you have said. Let it go, We know this is a difficult element ...
No argument here. It's your insistence that what you are replacing it with is superior that I find frustrating. If you can show me examples of what he actually teaches and the amazing results, I'll shut up. Until then, it's all speculation. It might be true but nobody really will know until you actually use his method.quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:I have given everybody here in as short a sentence line as possible what Marshall believes causes major pitching injuries and how to fix them.
So, I ask you to "let it go" when it comes to the superiority of the method. Such claims are premature.
quote:Originally posted by dm59:You and the other Marshall advocates who post on these forums continually "beat the same drum" about how inefficient the traditional, arcing motion is at generating velocity. If you can't even show one example of a "full Marshall" pitcher, then your comments are baseless.quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:
Dm59,
You keep banging the same drum, now over here, was your repeated post for me or the other posters.You miss my point. The Marshall followers will not "let it go" when it comes to comments about the inefficiencies in the traditional motion. Why is it that I need to "let it go" but you can continually make statements that are unsupported? This is why I am "banging the same drum".quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:You know the video at Marshall’s site that we are privileged to see is training video that Marshall says the same things about what you have said. Let it go, We know this is a difficult element ...No argument here. It's your insistence that what you are replacing it with is superior that I find frustrating. If you can show me examples of what he actually teaches and the amazing results, I'll shut up. Until then, it's all speculation. It might be true but nobody will really know until you actually use his method.quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:I have given everybody here in as short a sentence line as possible what Marshall believes causes major pitching injuries and how to fix them.
So, I ask you to "let it go" when it comes to the superiority of the method. Such claims are premature.
Not for nothing but if you are going to name examples why not spell the players name correctly---Prior is not spelled "Pryor"
DUH!!!!
DUH!!!!
quote:DUH!!!
Or you can be sly about it like me and spell it both ways.....I'm real bad about the Rocket...one day it's Clemmons, another it's Clemons...some days he has a T... others well it vaguely resembles, so I settled on just saying the Rocket..I'd be smacked all over town if this were the English Vocab site
Babe Ruth was famous for his ability to forget names...me I just can't ever get spelling right...He was great...me? I'm, just pitiful
jdfromFla,
“He de-legitimized Tesla because what he offered was inferior.”
You are forgetting the rest of the story, which will turn out the same for Marshall!
Westinghouse (Tesla) ended up with their so called inferior product AC being finally
Accepted over DC, the same AC you are running your computer on, still there and still superior.
DM59,
You posed your question to me many times in the past and each time I have taken the time to answer you honestly, now here you are asking it again and you repeat it over and over like I do not understand what you said the first time you said it. I believe you are not talking to me any more because I have already answered you on this subject. The fact that you can stay on this non-injurious aspect of Marshall’s tenets and not understand it is not my problem it’s yours. You can feel free to go ahead and teach kids to arc the parabola of their center of mass driveline on both plains much more if you want. I see a huge difference when comparing a Marshall driveline to the traditional driveline you do not. I agree you do not OK.
DM59,
You posed your question to me many times in the past and each time I have taken the time to answer you honestly, now here you are asking it again and you repeat it over and over like I do not understand what you said the first time you said it. I believe you are not talking to me any more because I have already answered you on this subject. The fact that you can stay on this non-injurious aspect of Marshall’s tenets and not understand it is not my problem it’s yours. You can feel free to go ahead and teach kids to arc the parabola of their center of mass driveline on both plains much more if you want. I see a huge difference when comparing a Marshall driveline to the traditional driveline you do not. I agree you do not, OK.
“He de-legitimized Tesla because what he offered was inferior.”
You are forgetting the rest of the story, which will turn out the same for Marshall!
Westinghouse (Tesla) ended up with their so called inferior product AC being finally
Accepted over DC, the same AC you are running your computer on, still there and still superior.
DM59,
You posed your question to me many times in the past and each time I have taken the time to answer you honestly, now here you are asking it again and you repeat it over and over like I do not understand what you said the first time you said it. I believe you are not talking to me any more because I have already answered you on this subject. The fact that you can stay on this non-injurious aspect of Marshall’s tenets and not understand it is not my problem it’s yours. You can feel free to go ahead and teach kids to arc the parabola of their center of mass driveline on both plains much more if you want. I see a huge difference when comparing a Marshall driveline to the traditional driveline you do not. I agree you do not OK.
DM59,
You posed your question to me many times in the past and each time I have taken the time to answer you honestly, now here you are asking it again and you repeat it over and over like I do not understand what you said the first time you said it. I believe you are not talking to me any more because I have already answered you on this subject. The fact that you can stay on this non-injurious aspect of Marshall’s tenets and not understand it is not my problem it’s yours. You can feel free to go ahead and teach kids to arc the parabola of their center of mass driveline on both plains much more if you want. I see a huge difference when comparing a Marshall driveline to the traditional driveline you do not. I agree you do not, OK.
No I didn't....
Perhaps every time you'll start a car or power a flash light you'll remember that there is a place for both (But the point was still the point and you evaded yet again).
We've strayed from the op...no convincing either way. I have admitted my spelling challenges...for that I'm not contrite. I'm not amazed that you haven't varied from the party line. I surrender the thread to your tenacity and apologize to the op for the history lesson.
jd
Perhaps every time you'll start a car or power a flash light you'll remember that there is a place for both (But the point was still the point and you evaded yet again).
We've strayed from the op...no convincing either way. I have admitted my spelling challenges...for that I'm not contrite. I'm not amazed that you haven't varied from the party line. I surrender the thread to your tenacity and apologize to the op for the history lesson.
jd
Are you going by a new alias? I don't recall you answering this. Forgive me if I've simply forgotten who you are but "Yardbird" doesn't ring a bell.quote:DM59,
You posed your question to me many times in the past and each time I have taken the time to answer you honestly, ...
I've said this over and over again because Marshall follower say, over and over again, that the arc is inefficient. I have not had even one person give me a good explanation of how you can make the claims you do when you can't show me an example of what you preach actually being employed. What I get is "Oh, we get closer than you do" or "it's too hard to change".
You want to go out to every board out there and slam the effectiveness of traditional mechanics (not just injury issues but effectiveness) at every opportunity and you don't want anyone to take you to task on it. You are making claims of the superiority of a method that nobody has been able to use!! That's my beef.
So, since you say I don't understand, please give me a description of your straight drive line and how you do it. Do you actually do what Marshall teaches? Does anybody? Apparently, the videos on his site are training only and you've progressed past that and on to actually doing what he teaches.
If Cap'n would like, we can start another thread where you give us that kind of insight.
Cap'n, I apologize for letting this thread go well beyond it's intended purpose and I'll stop now.
