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TRUE or FALSE? Younger players may actually be hurt by attending a showcase...

TXCubFanTXCubFan10+ posts
Oldtimers...

I've read the Recruiting Timeline and notice that it is recommended that between 9th & 10th grade a player should attend a Pro Tryout Camp. I've also heard from some in my neck of the woods that a player should be very careful about attending a showcase as a Frosh or Sophomore because "they are looking to cross names OFF the list" rather than add to them. THoughts? Please opine.
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spinedocspinedoc100+ posts
Someone posted on her recently about a 15 or 16 year old who did well at a pro tryout camp as a 9th grader, and as I recall he was asked not to come back until he was a junior. Being a great player as a 9th grade doesn't mean much to people that are evaluating college or pro talent. They care how good you are as an Junior and Senior.
L Lclcoach100+ posts
TXCubFan
I think you may have it backwards. I would play in showcases and save the pro tryout for your last option after college or unless invited during your high school years. I don't think a pro tryout would do anything right now except hurt, more so if he didn't have his best stuff. If your kid is a Frosh or Soph. let him be one, he needs to be able to perform at his age level first. If he can play the scouts will find him. He can't go through the sport with the worry of being crossed of the list...if there is a list. Have your player go out work his tail off, play hard and let the chips fall here they may. With all that worry it's the wrong kind of pressure and a setup for disappointment. He needs to prove he can play at the high school level and the upper travel ball level first.
Just my opinion
Good luck
Last edited by Lclcoach
P pfbear13100+ posts
I think it's bad to go to too many of these things. My buddy's son was a stud varsity P in 8th grade. 6'0" throwing 88 when he was 14 or whatever you are in 8th grade. all kinds of schools were drooling over this kid. Guess what? Now he's 20, 6'0" and might hit 88 from the mound except that he hasn't pitched in 2 years.

I guess my point is that he probably would have been betetr off showcasing as a junior or senior because the schools would project he may grow a little and add 3-4 MPH. Since he really didn't get any bigger or stronger since 8th grade and all his showcase performances tracked that, he was hurt by them having too much information.
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
Comments from any showcase should be taken as an honest evaluation and one group's opinion on the performance of your child on one given day. My daughter attended her first showcase as a 7th grader. She was an "invited player" and we knew that they had her age wrong. They thought she was a frosh - soph in HS. However, we wanted her to get the experience and exposure. She did fantastic. However, when throwing from SS, they rated her arm as poor. Accurate assessment! Well, it gave us something to work on. In every other way, she matched up. Now, she knows she can play with older girls and did so last fall.

Will that evaluation now follow her around? I doubt it. In fact, the more she does it, the more she gets comfortable. What you're doing as parents is taking that evaluation when it arrives, discover how others percieve the skills of your child and get an opportunity to help your kid improve. In short, I think that showcases, such as Perfect Game, really help your kid.

One further thing, and speaking about Perfect Game, I had a player that really benefited from their showcases. In every step of the process, they also kept me up-to-date. I really appreciated their efforts. It helped me help my player. JMHO!
Last edited by CoachB25
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Pfbear,

Which showcases did he attend as a 8th grader? We started for the first time doing pre-high school events last year. Are there many others who track kids that early?

Personally, my suggestion is… Any 8th grader who can throw 88 should definitely be seen as much as they can. There is no “list” to worry about in 8th grade.

I suppose a young kid throwing 88 could hide out, but for how long? I’ve never understood the hiding mentality, though I know it exists. What is the purpose in keeping ability hidden? Is it to fool someone?

There’s no hiding in baseball… Even if you did fool someone into a scholarship or draft pick (very unlikely) you then have to come out of hiding and show what you have every day!

Pfbear, the only thing that might have hurt the pitcher you mentioned is the truth, not the fact people tracked him at a young age.

Regarding the original question… The events a player attends as a junior or sometimes senior are potentially the most harmful. Also those are the lists (any list) that are the most important. The younger a player is the more time he has to overcome anyone’s opinion of his ability. Basically very little to lose for the younger player.

There have been players who became very well known in scouting circles as a Sophomore and missed their junior or senior year. Because they were seen early on they still had many college offers and/or were drafted. For those players it was a good thing they showed their true ability at a younger age.

You are correct in saying a player’s track record can be a negative, as in the case you mentioned. At the same time it can be a big plus for the pitcher or player who improves steadily over the years and does grow in size and ability. But either way, IMO it’s never a true benefit trying to hide what is really there. Everyone’s goal should be to get things right whenever possible rather than fool the recruiters and scouts.

BTW, 88 is more than enough, don’t understand why he no longer pitches. Must not of gotten better at the actual pitching part because velocity wasn’t the problem. Anyway, the example you gave is something we have seen many times. The physically mature 14 year old does have a giant advantage at that age. Sometimes they don’t get a lot better and others pass them up. And sometimes they improve just as much or more than the others. But heck… It’s better to be seen while you standout than never be seen at all. It’s just more important who is the best in the end. In many cases it can really help by simply being on the map and becoming part of the tracking system.
P pfbear13100+ posts
PG-

He did the Blue-Grey stuff. I don't think he ever attended any of your events. He also went to a camp at LSU around that age and they loved him.

You are correct in that velocity was not his problem. Control and absolutley no movement were his undoing. He's actually a decent OF now and his arm from out there is very strong, but still a little wild.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
I don't believe making varsity is all that valuable of a measure. We play schools where most of our JV kids would start on their varsity and we play schools (nationally ranked) where very few of our varsity players would make their varsity and many of their JV players would make our varsity.

There are also kids who make varsity because there's a lack at their position and players who stay down on JV to get playing time because the varsity is strong at their position.
Last edited by CADad
justbaseballjustbaseball10,000+ posts
I am sorry, but I cannot hold myself back. I've been around and worked heavily in youth baseball for 16 years now.

I think pre-HS showcases are a waste of time and money...even if you can throw 88. No disrespect towards PG intended who I think tremendously highly of...but they know how I feel about this. IMO, the only sure thing at 14 years old is a coordinated 6 ft. 8 in. basketball player.

All the rest is just a guess...as the example above so clearly demonstrates.
Last edited by justbaseball
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
Any coach or scouting service that marks an 8th or 9th grader OFF because of a poor performance at a showcase will not be in business long or coaching long. As a coach I have seen young kids too many times that have been below average players for their age and then BlOW UP LARGE as they say as Jr's or Seniors. I have seen Jr's look average and then have tremendous gains and come on big as seniors. It happens all the time. The same can be said for the 8th or 9th grader that shows up and is way advanced for his years. There is no guarantee that he will be any better as a sr. Of course you will want to track this kid and see how he progresses but their are no guarantee's. Go to Baseball Americas website and check out the story on Matt Harrison LHP in the Atlanta Braves farm system. He is the #3 ranked prospect in the Braves farm system. He was drafted out of our HS in 03 with the last pick of the 3rd round. Matt got cut his 10th grade year from an AAU team he tried out for. He was a 75 mph pitcher his freshman year. If you want to go to a showcase as a young player to get the experience of the event I say go for it. I would not worry about being marked off anyones list. You can not be afraid of failure. I have seen too many kids look average one weekend then look awesome the next. Whats wrong with just getting the experience under your belt? How can that hurt? jmho
justbaseballjustbaseball10,000+ posts
quote:
Whats wrong with just getting the experience under your belt?


Nothing. But at 13/14 why not get it in games against high level competition instead? Why is a showcase necessary? Do you need to 'practice' being in a showcase for 3 years before it really counts? Do you need to 'practice' trigonometry 3 years before its necessary? Not in my opinion.

quote:
How can that hurt?


It won't necessarily hurt. But is a 13/14-year old mature enough to take the feedback properly? Are the parents of a 13/14-year old mature enough? What if you haven't grown yet and the report doesn't rate you that highly...will some kids/parents get discouraged? (BTW, mine was 5 ft. 3 in. in 8th grade...he's 6 ft. 4 in. now). What if they say you're the greatest thing since sliced bread? Will you believe it? Will you think you've got it made? Will your parents overreact and celebrate your future at age 13/14?

Before HS, play baseball and have fun. Play games. Find the best competition you can handle. When you're 15/16, find a local showcase to "practice" and see what its like. Work your way up the ladder if you can. If you're good enough this will be in plenty of time.

What possible good comes out of attending a showcase before HS? I just don't see it.
Last edited by justbaseball
L luvthisgame10+ posts
I agree with those that say, if you have player that can play let him show it.
My son 14 now 15 in March, has not even tried out for the HS team, but he attended the PG underclass showcase. It was a great expreience from him. He was happy with his performance as was I. Sure I would have loved for him to make the top prospect team, but that is life. So he is determined and working harder now.
shortstopmomshortstopmom1,000+ posts
Not sure this will help or not, but I first took my son to a few showcases and we just watched.
( Didn't pay, just observed. ) Got a feel of how things were run, what was expected, and soaked up the competitive atmosphere. We learned from those who were shining and from those who seemed ill prepared. When the time came later, and my son was an actual paying participant, he was aware of what was expected of him.

Reading stats and watching those who made the stats, were two different things entirely.
My sons eyes were wide open, alert, and ready.
Any pre-showcase nerves he might have had, had we not done this, were eased. He went in with an understanding of how things worked, had seen competition, and then we left it up to him t tell me when he thought he was ready.
Last edited by shortstopmom
veryproudmomveryproudmom100+ posts
There's something about comparing yourself (speaking of son) to others outside of your general circle. Kind of like seeing the abilities of the other fish in the pond.

While hubby and I knew for a while the ability son had, and son probably had an inkling, we knew he needed to work harder. He had the opportunity between sophomore and junior year to attend a showcase conducted by the state coach's association. Son's eyes were also wide opened. While he had the ability to compete with others there, he finally realized (on his own) that he needed to "turn it up a notch or two" in order to remain at that level.
20dad20dad1,000+ posts
just my opinion, but pro tryouts are free. the ones in our area when you find them have a great range of talent . most on the lower end. but if you get the chance to go to a free showcase before you pay for one you'll get an idea what they are all about.
pro tryouts are about finding the 20 yr old sleeper. so you aren't hurting yourself if your young. but you will know what you need to work on for the money showcase. when 60 college coaches are watching and it does mean something. but again just my opinion.
L larrythompson500+ posts
Several years ago, I was running a pro tryout camp for the Houston Astros here in MD. A good buddy of mine asked if he could bring a kid who had just completed 9th grade. I told him fine.

The kid looked pretty darn good, and we had about 120 kids at the camp...10-15 who were moderate prospects.

That 9th grader...current 1B for the Texas Rangers, Mark Texiera.

It is well documented how I feel about this whole showcase mentality of baseball these days, and I used to absolutely prescribe by the thought that younger players should stay away since they would most likely look overmatched.

Lately I have been thinking that this might be wrong headed thinking. What if a kid drastically improves his second year at the same tryout camp? Doesn't that demonstrate to the scouts that he is still developing, and that perhaps his ceiling is even higher?
N NYdad500+ posts
quote:
I don't believe making varsity is all that valuable of a measure. We play schools where most of our JV kids would start on their varsity and we play schools (nationally ranked) where very few of our varsity players would make their varsity and many of their JV players would make our varsity.

There are also kids who make varsity because there's a lack at their position and players who stay down on JV to get playing time because the varsity is strong at their position.

We had a kid who didn't play varsity as a junior sign with a top tier D1 school before his senior season. Should he have waited until he made varsity to showcase?


Geez...Varsity being just a general rule bearing in mind their are exceptions to every rule i.e. being involved in a perennial powerhouse program where you get one year of Varsity ball during your Senior year.
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
Of course there are exceptions to every rule--- for our part we want the players to be a "varsity contributor" and supply a recommendation---in some cases a player may behind a stud at his position--this is when we listen to the coach--the second stringer this year will be the starter next year---if the coach talks with us regarding the situation we adapt
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
quote:
IMO, the only sure thing at 14 years old is a coordinated 6 ft. 8 in. basketball player.

In fact there is no sure thing at age 17 either.

I'm not arguing here and understand why someone might think these pre high school showcases are a waste of time and money. I kind of felt the same way a couple years ago and still not positive about anything. But because I think we are the only ones who have done the pre high school stuff, here aree a few other things to think about.

Jb,

I have seen several “sure things” even younger than 14. I was quoted in a newspaper saying Ryan Sweeney is the most talented kid to ever come out of our area and if he stays healthy he will play in the Big Leagues some day. He was 13 years old at the time! Last year he was in the Big Leagues at 21 years old.

Others we’ve first seen at age 13 who (not just us) we pretty much knew they would reach the top were Delmon Young and Justin Upton. We have seen a large number of top draft picks and college players the first time at age 14.

On the other side of the debate, we could say things probably would have turned out the same had we not seen these kids until they were 15-16. And yes, we’ve seen the 13-14 year old super stars who were very physically mature and got passed up by others over the years.

There was a RHP from Texas who was legendary at 13-14. He was bigger and stronger than others. He was in the low 90s at age 14 and he was low 90s at age 18. This pitcher was still drafted because he is good.

I’m not sure I’m completely sold on pre-high school showcases. They are not a major emphasis for us. I’ve had good baseball people tell me how they think those events would be of more value, combining the showcase experience with instruction and education.

One thing that few consider is our major job is finding and identifying talent. Identifying talent at a very young age can be of value to others more than the actual player. And this identification is not publicized like when we identify an older player. Also this allows us to keep players within their own age bracket in the beginning. Everyone understands that most 13-14 year olds can’t compete with 17-18 year olds.

Several years ago we started doing underclassmen events. The scouting director for the D’Rays at that time questioned the importance of these evnts geared to players too young for recruiting and the draft. He said “we don’t follow freshmen and sophomores in high school” “All our effort is geared towards the draft class, we don’t care about the younger kids”.

My reply was… Well you should care! He asked Why! This is fairly close to what I told him.

Let’s say you have two players who have pretty much identical ability and size. Let’s say pitchers the same size that both throw 92 mph with good mechanics and they appear equal in every way. In other words you could almost flip a coin as to who you would select.

Now let’s say you have a 5 year track record on both pitchers to look at and it looked like this…

Age 14 - Pitcher A was 5’6 and threw 73 mph
Age 14 – Pitcher B was 6’0 and threw 86 mph with a good curveball

Age 15 – Pitcher A was 5’9 and threw 79 mph
Age 15 – Pitcher B was 6’2 and threw 90 mph with a good curveball

Age 16 – Pitcher A was 6’2 and threw 86 mph with a good change
Age 16 – Pitcher B was 6’3 and threw 92 mph with good curveball

Age 17 – Pitcher A was 6’4 and threw 90 mph with good curve and change
Age 17 – Pitcher B was 6’5 and threw 93 mph with good curve and change

Age 18 – Pitcher A was 6’5 and threw 93 mph
Age 18 – Pitcher B was 6’5 and threw 93 mph
Now would there be any importance in knowing that history on each player? Which pitcher is likely to be better next year? That is the obvious data, but now let’s look at other things that data might show you. It could show that pitcher A has an outstanding work ethic based on the numbers while pitcher B was possibly more gifted. It’s possible that pitcher A may still grow some and based on the history he is more likely to keep improving.

The scouting director looked at me and said… “Jerry, I think you’re on to something here!”

I don’t think pre-high school showcases are necessary at all for the players (that I will agree with), however they are important to us and can be important to others. We love to see and track the best talent at any age. There have been young kids reach the highest levels in Tennis, Golf, and other sports. Joe Nuxhall once pitched in the big leagues at age 15. Bob Feller was an outstanding pitcher at age 16. Those things can’t happen under the current rules, but there will always be young people who can compete and out perform much older players.

Then there is always just plain opportunity. I believe the sooner we know about a talented young player the more we can possibly help him. Sometimes those opportunities come from the top travel clubs that can do a lot to develop players and provide the highest level of competition. JB, not every talented young player gets the opportunity to play against the high level competition. The East Cobbs, Midland Redskins, Florida Bombers and other top programs scout our young events hard! I know there will be a difference in opinion as to the value of playing on a top program at such a young age, but these top programs can be very important to a players future. In fact, we often see the top young players because of those programs. And of course USA Baseball is among the most interested in pre high school age players. There have been players represent our country who have yet to play varsity baseball.

Finally (and I apologize for the length) Those most talented young players who are with the very best programs already, don’t really need pre high school showcases. Nobody NEEDS pre high school showcases, but they’re not necessarily worthless to everyone. And justbaseball I very much respect your opinion and share your thought on the most important thing of all… HAVE FUN, learn and enjoy the game, don’t turn it into the most serious thing there is. We do see too many people getting caught up in that trap.

It’s great to have a place to discuss these kind of things.
Last edited by PGStaff
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
PG and JBB,
I think that you both bring valid points to the discussion of pre high school showcases.

They didn't have pre high school showcases "way back" then and it is relatively new, so it is hard to determine if there are positive results from early showcasing. Recruiting times have changed, but I still feel that if we had a choice, we would not have sent ours to a showcase too early. The main reason would be economics, which I think that JBB was trying to elude to. My philososphy paid off for out son, we spent very little and he got a lot, but that is not always the case and there were circumstances in the end that made things even better. And I do live in a state where it was not necessary to break the bank. The whole process can become very expensive and the whole idea is to spend wisely and get good results in the end. It's a personal decision for the parents and should be based upon the fact that they may have extra income, etc.
The way I see many folks scambling these days to make ends meet and lots of anxiety arises when the Jones' next door have one up on the Smiths. So as PG suggests, don't get caught up in the trap.

I think what it comes down to is a personal decision, and that is very important that early showcasing is done for the right reasons, not the wrong ones.

IMO, try to map out a plan (you can start early) to reach a goal. The goal should be to help develop your player so that he can have part (or maybe all) of his education be subsidized. If that includes an early showcase, then that is fine. Maybe along the way he gets lucky and gets drafted, but I am focusing on college recruting first. I have heard from many parents that they felt that in the beginning they spent so much that by the time their junior year rolled around they had little funds for showcases and high priced travel teams. Spend it where and when it counts most.

To answer the original question, can younger players be hurt by attending showcases, I don't think so, why would they? I do feel that showcasing TOO much at any age may not always be a good thing. In our case our son received a 10 his first showcase and his second, so we felt it was enough. I can understand if a player is, let's say a 7.5, early, then I see some validity in trying to improve that over the course of time. But that will not change if the weaknesses are not addressed. After things are identified, then put a plan into place and set a goal. Maybe consider working on those areas for a year, waiting for your player to mature, etc. In using early showcases as a "tool" you don't have to break the bank. In using it to stay ahead of the others, it's not a good idea.

In the end, when the dust settles, a players ability and his GPA will determine where he goes to school or if he gets drafted, that's the bottom line.

JMO.
Last edited by TPM
justbaseballjustbaseball10,000+ posts
PG - As you know I respect your opinion immensely and please know it is not my intent to debate you...I'm just expressing a personal opinion, nothing more. And I will think some more about what you have said because YOU have said it (thats pretty legit in my book!)...but right now I still don't see it. Thats ok, sometimes I'm a little dense.

quote:
Joe Nuxhall once pitched in the big leagues at age 15.


I'm well aware. One of my favorites...grew up listening to him on the radio. He belongs in the HOF as a broadcaster. But we both know he was in the big leagues at that age because of WWII. Many/most(?) of the others you listed didn't need a showcase before HS either...they are/were awfully darn good. Just needed to keep playing at the highest level they could. Got no problem if PG or MLB or Stanford University wants to go watch them in a game at age 7 or 8 if they want? I actually don't think its tremendously hard to pick a Justin Upton out of a crowd at a very young age either...but why do you need a showcase for that? And in all honesty, did Justin really ever need to attend a showcase?

quote:
I’ve had good baseball people tell me how they think those events would be of more value, combining the showcase experience with instruction and education.


I believe I know one who's told you that since he's told me that too. I agree with him.

quote:
And of course USA Baseball is among the most interested in pre high school age players. There have been players represent our country who have yet to play varsity baseball.


I know of 18 kids about to head south of the border wearing "USA" on their chest in less than a week...and I am quite sure (make that positive) at least one of them has not attended any showcases. Good competition in good tournaments on a good team? Yes. Showcase? No.

Hey, you know I'm all for competing at the very highest level when you're ready...and sometimes thats pretty young. But why are we in such a hurry to grow our kids up? Is it really for the kids? Or is it for the parents ego and/or for the benefit of MLB down the line...4 years from now? I'd prefer to err on the side of being a kid as long as you can.

Just an opinion that I'll likely regret posting. Nothing more.
Last edited by justbaseball
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Justbaseball,

Never a need to regret an opinion. I respect those who care and stick to there guns, especially if everything is done politely.

As I said, I’m not completely sold on anything and likely to change my mind at any time.

However in the interest of debate… Many have said it wasn’t necessary that so and so ever attended a showcase. That could be true, but the only thing we know for sure is whether they did or they didn’t attend showcases. In Justin and BJ Uptons case they attended many of our showcases. So did Delmon Young, Scott Kazmir, Ryan Sweeney, Chris Lubanski and over 100 other first round picks over the past 5 years. We will never know if it made any difference or not. We do know that what they showed at these events had to help them more than hurt them.

Here is part of an article interviewing BJ and Justin’s father.

quote:
Proud Papa
The proud father of two extremely talented and down to earth young men, Manny Upton has been able to pass down some of his baseball knowledge and experience. An athletic and talented baseball player in his own right, Manny starred at Norfolk State, not only in baseball, but in football as well. While his baseball playing career did not continue past his four-years in college, he did return to Norfolk State to coach before becoming a scout for the Chicago White Sox and then the Kansas City Royals.

On the field Manny knew practice makes perfect, so he tried to make sure he got both of his sons as much time on the field as possible. "Repetition is the most important factor for any young player," Manny said. "Particularly hitting and taking ground balls."

Manny quickly recognizes that the mental aspect of the game is just as important, and along with the repetitions his sons received on the field, they would also watch a lot of baseball games together to soak the game in. "When they were younger we used to sit and watch baseball all of the time, talking about different aspects of the game, particularly in-game situations," Manny said. "We would try to cover everything that happened in a game."

He added, "For example, before each pitch, know where you're going to throw the ball if it comes to you. Play out each play before it even happens in your head, and pretend that every ball is indeed going to come your way. If they do that long enough, along with the actual in-game repetitions, after a while those situations become second nature."

While many want to give Manny as much credit as possible for the development of both B.J. and Justin Upton, Manny gives his sons all of the credit for what they have become today. "They take the initiative to play a lot of games on their own," Manny said. "You've got to get out and play, and that's what they've done all their life."

He definitely helped point them in the right direction, giving them the attention and time not only on the baseball diamond, but at home talking about baseball hoping to prepare them for not only baseball, but for life. "My philosophy has always been that you want to be a better person than you are an athlete," said Manny. "Given the tremendous skills they've been blessed with, that's a pretty high standard. I have also instilled in them to be very humble individuals, and to be thankful for where they are. I'm very proud when I go to a game and hear, 'He's such a good kid.' That makes me feel good."

While Manny's playing, coaching and scouting experience has been helpful to both of his sons, his experience with his sons could be beneficial to other parents and young players. "Don't pressure them," Manny said. "I always told my sons to go out and play hard and to enjoy their teammates and their senior year, because the next year it's going to be more difficult. Whether you play college or pro baseball, it's going to be a job."

The Perfect Game experience
The need for repetition prompted Manny to pursue the ventures of Perfect Game USA, knowing that both B.J. and Justin would benefit playing with and against the best players in the country. B.J. in particular was helped by the exposure he received by playing in Perfect Game showcases and tournaments. "Nobody knew about B.J. until he went to a Perfect Game event," Manny said. "For any young player, if they want the exposure, whether you're going to play Division I, Division II, Division III or professional baseball, you have to play against that type of competition. Perfect Game provides that for every player, regardless of where that player is going to end up playing. They were certainly instrumental in helping B.J. get to where he is today."

B.J. echoed that thought: "It played a big part of my career. I think I went to four or five Perfect Game showcases and that pretty much got my name out there. Playing with the caliber of players there: Delmon Young, Zach Greinke, Scott Kazmir (etc.), there are still a lot of guys that I am playing with and against today that I played with and against at Perfect Game events. With all of the scouts and college coaches there it's a great place to be if you want to be exposed."

"When you have that many eyes on you it helps get you ready for what you want to do," B.J. continued. "Every baseball player eventually wants to be in the Major Leagues, to be in the Major Leagues you have to be able to play in front of 50,000 people. You've got to be able to play in Yankee Stadium and Fenway, where the fans are heckling you. Being at Perfect Game at that age is kind of the same thing playing in front of scouts and all of the people that are there."

Justin has been well known for several years now, partially in part to his big brother, but more importantly due to his aforementioned emergence during the Area Code Games after his freshman year in high school. That doesn't mean the Perfect Game experience wasn't beneficial to him as well. "You learn how to play against best competition and you learn how to play in the spotlight," Justin said. Justin has attended six or seven Perfect Game events and PG has ranked him #1 in his class for four years.

Justin's stature as a prospect led him to being selected by Perfect Game to participate in the 2004 AFLAC All-American Classic in Aberdeen, Maryland. The younger Upton was the talk of the event, as he showcased his amazing physical talents. "The game itself was a lot of fun," Justin said. "Hanging out with all of the top players from around the nation was a blast."

While B.J. was playing under the guidance of Lou Piniella with some of the veteran players mentioned above along with young stars such as Carl Crawford, Rocco Baldelli and Scott Kazmir in early August, Justin along with his talented prep teammates were receiving words of wisdom from baseball legend Cal Ripken, Jr. "That was a huge thrill," Justin said of the experience meeting the 'Iron Man' of baseball. "He told us that if you ever get the opportunity to play professionally, you have to keep a cool head because you only get so many chances."

And Justin received the biggest honor of all as part of the festivities at the AFLAC All-American Classic: The Inaugural Jackie Robinson award, presented by both Cal Ripken, Jr., and the widow of Jackie Robinson, Rachael, which according to Justin was, "the biggest highlight I've ever had in my life."

"Of any award that you can receive, that's the best one," the proud father Manny added. "It not only encompasses what they do on the field but what they do off the field as well."

Manny added about the entire experience, "Perfect Game was great for us. It wouldn't have mattered if my kids were going to a Division III college or going pro. They do it the right way, and they treat people fairly."


And here is part of an interview with Chris Lubanski’s father, note it mentions USA Baseball.

quote:
With Delmon Young flashing his bat in Southern California, and both Lastings Milledge and Ryan Harvey showcasing their skills in the sunshine state year-round, Chris Lubanski did it all coming from a small town in Southeast Pennsylvania called Schwenksville. If you're good enough, teams will find you, and certainly showcase events like the ones Perfect Game host go a long way helping young players not only reach their dreams on the collegiate and professional level, but to offer a platform for young players to showcase their skills for other national programs, such as Team USA. Lubanski benefited from this as well, as his involvement and the exposure he received from Perfect Game showcases allowed him to play for Team USA. His involvement with the USA Baseball program has continued to this day, as Lubanski recently was named to the USA Baseball Board of Directors, joining fellow former USA players and current professionals Huston Street and Mark Prior.

Chris' proud father, Wally Lubanski, enjoyed and appreciated the opportunities Perfect Game USA gave his eldest son, and last year he made sure the next Lubanski in line, 14-year old Mike, attended a Perfect Game event knowing it could only help to get his name out there. While Mike Lubanski doesn't graduate from high school until 2009, he displayed his powerful bat at the Perfect Game Pennsylvania ID Camp in March 2004, and didn't look much like a seventh-grader in the front of dozens observers.

"Perfect Game puts out a great product," Wally said. "They have tons of credibility with everyone involved with amateur and professional baseball: The coaches, recruiters, families, and the players themselves."

"They have been great to Chris," Wally continued. "I get the impression that they really enjoy what they do and get a lot of satisfaction helping young players. We really value their (Perfect Game's) opinions because they have never steered us wrong. You can't get more down to earth than they are."


Sorry if the above sounds a bit like boasting, I copied them in order to give another perspective to this discussion. The articles were written by Patrick Ebert.

I agree also that there should be no hurry in getting kids to grow up. (most important… have fun and learn) But if we waited until kids were juniors or sophomores to find the best players, we would miss even more than we do now. And we do miss some the way it is. We have no idea who most of the top 8th graders are, but we would like to know. When we do see one we will follow him for several years. Whether that is a good thing or bad thing, others will have to decide.

It has always amazed me how many Major League players played in the Little League World Series. There can’t be a bigger “showcase” for real young players than that one on national television! I can't see how a small pre-high school showcase could ever have as much pressure.

Myself, I’m a big believer in the more information you have the better off you’ll be. And I fully understand that parents will not all feel the same way about things. That’s fine… In no way is doing anything a must… showcases, top level teams, even top competition or top instruction! There are players who have made it without any of those things during their youth and high school days.

Anyway, I think this is a good discussion and your thoughts are just as important as mine. Maybe even more important because you have nothing to gain by stating your opinions. In other words, your only interest is in helping others. Me too, but we do run a baseball business. I hope that never causes me to be unreasonable or to do stupid things.

quote:
Hey, you know I'm all for competing at the very highest level when you're ready...and sometimes thats pretty young. But why are we in such a hurry to grow our kids up? Is it really for the kids? Or is it for the parents ego and/or for the benefit of MLB down the line...4 years from now? I'd prefer to err on the side of being a kid as long as you can.

JB, It could be for the benefit of others down the line. If I become convinced that there is no value to the kids, we will quit doing pre high school showcases. There has to be a benefit for the kids and perhaps that will cause us to make some adjustments in the events.

Thanks for your thoughts on the subject. I mean that! Smile
S sluggo100+ posts
I have been reading this thread with interest because my 15 yo is going to attend a pro scout camp soon. Going in, I felt he is really too young, but one of his best friends is going, my son wanted to go, so I said ok. After reading everyone's thoughts I have decided that I want him to attend because I want him to see how he measures up against the older players. If he does well that will be encouraging. If he does not look all that good in comparison, then he will know what/who is out there to compete against.
Last edited by sluggo
FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
I guess it is not my place to suggest what a parent should or what a parent should not do when it comes to “helping” their sons make it to the “next level”. But I can tell you I am continually amazed of the jostling for position that goes on and the quantity of money spent as that “next level deadline” approaches. I agree with justbasball’s position and admire his strength of mind but I also know that one person’s logical explanations cannot temper the emotional involvement of the masses.
Fungo
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
quote:
Oldtimers...

I've read the Recruiting Timeline and notice that it is recommended that between 9th & 10th grade a player should attend a Pro Tryout Camp. I've also heard from some in my neck of the woods that a player should be very careful about attending a showcase as a Frosh or Sophomore because "they are looking to cross names OFF the list" rather than add to them. THoughts? Please opine.

Back to the starting point of this topic…

Just because someone recommends something, doesn’t mean it is best for your son. I’ve run many pro tryouts in the past, some open and some not. Open pro tryouts (the ones listed in newspapers and other places) usually allow 15 year olds to attend. They are free of charge and will only have an adverse affect if you allow it. Seldom will you see any evaluatuion unless you ask the scout and he has time to talk to you. Usually you will not have any idea what the scout might be thinking. There are not many in scouting who would ever cross a 15 year old off his list. Chances are unless your 15 year old son has extreme talent, he will run the 60 and maybe throw and that will be about it. If his best attribute is hitting he may not get the opportunity to show that. In the end… It shouldn’t harm him a bit, but it probably won’t help him either unless he is unusually exceptional. At 15 you can be put on someone’s list or not be put on a list. You are not crossed off!

Showcases… Hate to speak for everyone, but regarding frosh/soph… most everyone is looking for players to add rather than cross off. It’s only after you are on a list or recognized as being talented that scouts look for a reason to cross a player off. The reasons players are crossed off a recruiter/scouts “list” are many including, ability, make up, grades, lack of effort, character, and many other reasons.

Back to the present discussion…

I not only respect the opinions of those against showcase events at a very young age, but I even agree with many of the points they make. There are some things to consider both ways. I think everyone should weigh the advantages against the disadvantages of playing a high level competition and/or showcase at a very young age. Here are some things to consider.

What are the plus/minus from either showcase or high level competition at a very young age. Others can chime in, but here are some things that come to mind.

Cost – I could tell people to save their money in hundreds of different ways. I never really know if people will feel like they have spent money wisely or not. I do not place pre high school showcases at a highest priority level. I doubt they will ever become very popular. It is possible that someone paying to attend a pre high school showcase is in fact wasting their money. That is not my decision to make. I can honestly say that my reasons for allowing pre high school events is not motivated by making money. If people think something is a waste of time and money they should not do it!

Education – Will the player learn anything that might benefit him? By all means, if you think a young player will not enjoy, learn, or benefit from an experience… Do not do it! If too much importance placed on something creates too much pressure… Don’t do it! If it could harm your child in any way… Don’t do it. This holds true whether a fee is charged or if it’s free of charge.

Finding Weakness – Finding out weakness at a young age can be a great benefit. Development does not usually start at 18, but much sooner. The sooner someone finds out their areas of weakness the more it can help development. This can happen in many ways in addition to showcases or playing higher level competition. But someone can be very successful in high level competition without ever addressing their weaknesses. I’m sure we’ve all seen this. So to me the question is… How early is it important to understand and address weakness? If the young player has outstanding coaching, he is less likely to need help from others. So once again the showcase would not have as much value in that case.

Competition – Experiencing pressure is part of baseball at every level. Being a supporter of both high level competition (teams) and showcases (individuals), I’ve seen competition become both good and bad. If pre high school showcases are a negative thing, then what are the tryouts for the high level teams? Just to be clear… not to sound like a hypocrite, I don’t like tryouts for young players because they can be mentally harmful to some who are cut! Young players should not be exposed to getting cut! IMO, but it happens more and more each year. Guess there is no way to change that. A different topic I suppose.

Fun – Young people need to enjoy the game and being young. Anything that gets in the way of this is the biggest negative in baseball. I believe this is the area that most concerns “justbaseball” and others including myself.

If the problem, rather than the subject, is how much money someone might waste, that is a shallow argument IMO and should be the least important consideration for anyone other than the person making that decision! I could tell someone it’s a waste of money buying a Hummer, but why would I say that? Obviously others must think a Hummer is well worth the price. Heck, if you like Hummers and can afford one, go for it!

If the problem is… pre high school showcases are of no value and even harmful to young kids… We all have to listen! I am listening! If convincing enough, we might actually give up doing pre high school showcases. Not to be stubborn, but is it less or more that is better for baseball and those who play it? Guess it probably depends on what the less or more is. Less drugs, would be a very good thing.

People have complained a lot about the Little League World Series in many ways. Is it good for the individuals who play? For some yes… for others maybe not. Is it a great promotion for baseball? Absolutely, without a doubt! There’s always more than one way to look at things.

Fungo, Not sure what you meant, but I'm not "jostling for any position" here. And I believe all the emotional stuff aside, we do need to look at all the logical explanations possible. I never believe that one person's opinion or even there logic makes something the gospel! I've read every word in this thread and agree with most of what has been written. Changing my position is not a problem, done that many times. My opinions could very well be wrong on this topic. Not the first or last time that will happen. As some might or might not know... I hate the money references. Some day, people will understand that money is not the motivation for what we do. I really don't care if anyone ever pays us a thing. People can avoid us all they want. I don't care! It won't change what is most important to me! I know this sounds like BS, but I hate business and love baseball!
B bbscout1,000+ posts
This is a good thread with lots of quality posts. Being from the West Coast, I am more familiar with The Area Code Games than I am with PG, but both are top showcases for top kids.
Looking at it from a different viewpoint (as a scout), the value of the showcase is great for me. Over the years, I have been fortunate enough to have a team in the AC games for 13 years. The geatest value for me was getting to know the players and their folks. I have had players who were very good who I backed off of due to my misgivings about their make ups and/or family. Without the showcase, I may have drafted the player and would have been burnt. On the other hand, I have had many players who really got my attention with their great make ups and great parents. Spending two days at the tryout and then 6 days at the event with the kids and having coffee with the parents is the main reason I still do it.
As a scout, we all make mistakes on how talented the players are, but if you make less mistakes on the make up of the player, you will be a better scout.
Over the years I have found the great make up player is the one who takes his ability to its max, and the great kids like CC, Dontrelle, Jimmy R, Nick J, Xavier, Shawn E, Derrek L and many others have reached the top and some of it was talent and some of it was their make up.

For me, being with the kids for about a week and a half was worth its weight in gold.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Curious, I have a question.

When a 13/14 attends a showcase how is he evaluated? Is he evaluated with his peers or with HS prospects. Does he get rated?

I know at 12/13/14 my son was pretty good pitcher but he had a lot to learn. He may not have done too well. Also, my son never had a radar gun on him until he was a sophmore in HS. And at 12/13/14 the farthest thing from his mind was being a pitcher, he played 3B and had a good bat and was a lot better than on the mound. He actually finally resolved himself at the end of his freshman year he was going to be a pitcher, as that is when it became apparent that is where his strength would be.

So I am just wondering, how a player that young is rated at a showcase.

bbscout,
I don't think the discussion is about the value of showcases but about showcases for younger players.

And that's a great post about how important it is to get to know a player and his family!
Last edited by TPM
F FormerObserver1,000+ posts
quote:
and their folks.

quote:
backed off of due to my misgivings about their make ups and/or family.

quote:
really got my attention with their great make ups and great parents.

quote:
with the kids and having coffee with the parents is the main reason I still do it.

quote:
but if you make less mistakes on the make up of the player, you will be a better scout.

quote:
great kids like

quote:
have reached the top and some of it was talent and some of it was their make up.


bbscout,

Forgive me for dissecting your post, but, I noticed these points as I read through your post, just as TPM did also.

And, whether your post is exactly on the point of this post doesn't matter, because the content of the post should be noted all of us on this journey.

With the ability to read between the lines some, I think bbscout's post answers so many questions that many have about the recruiting and drafting process.

It's always good to hear from bbscout.

Thanks for taking the time to post.

And, you too, PGStaff................
Last edited by FormerObserver
FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
quote:
Fungo, Not sure what you meant, but I'm not "jostling for any position" here. And I believe all the emotional stuff aside, we do need to look at all the logical explanations possible. I never believe that one person's opinion or even there logic makes something the gospel!

PGStaff,
Sorry for the confusion. I'm not making reference to you or Perfect Game. I'd be the first to recommend your services to those players needing exposure. I’m making reference to the many emotionally involved parents that would stop at nothing to make sure their sons have a perceived edge over the “other” player. If you don’t believe me, start a 6u showcase and see what happens. That seems illogical or maybe even absurd but I would wager my saving that participation would be brisk. I could take that money I make on the wager and buy my grandson one of those negative 25 / 24" Easton Double Whammy bats with the double bladders (Nitrogen in the barrel and Argon in the handle) with the expanded sweet spot, Sting Stop II technology, with the Teflon coated pro cup barrel that reduces air drag by 6.3% ---- Big Grin Big Grin
S spizzlepop1,000+ posts
quote:
I could take that money I make on the wager and buy my grandson one of those negative 25 / 24" Easton Double Whammy bats with the double bladders (Nitrogen in the barrel and Argon in the handle) with the expanded sweet spot, Sting Stop II technology, with the Teflon coated pro cup barrel that reduces air drag by 6.3% ----


You're killing me Fungo
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Fungo:
I could take that money I make on the wager and buy my grandson one of those negative 25 / 24" Easton Double Whammy bats with the double bladders (Nitrogen in the barrel and Argon in the handle) with the expanded sweet spot, Sting Stop II technology, with the Teflon coated pro cup barrel that reduces air drag by 6.3% ---- Big Grin Big Grin


And then - when the kid uses the high tech metal argon enhanced rocket launcher to check swing a pitch 380 feet to the opposite field - some clown at Baseball America can write an article telling us all how he is the next coming of Willie Mays - for a price of course.

LOL
Last edited by itsinthegame
M Michael'sDad100+ posts
My son went to pro tryouts after both his Soph and Junior years in High School. He had a lot of fun both times and the atmosphere was relaxed. The other players there treated him very nicely. After the tryout following his Soph season the Scout took him aside and talked to him and went back over his high school information and thanked him for coming. After the tryout following his Junior season the Scout, different club, called him by first name - took him aside and thanked him for coming - and told him he was going to come and watch a couple of his high school games this spring. I don't really know whether either of the Scouts meant a word of what they said but both were very nice and it really pumped my son up. I cann't think of anything but positive that could come out of it. These boys need to have some fun now and then because they are always competeing. Plus, these scouts have to know that kid mature and wouldn't cross anyone off, even if they didn't perform at their highest level.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Fungo,

LOL you might not believe this, but we held a home run derby last summer and one of the age brackets was 6 & Under.

It was held in a minor league stadium. We ran the event and used the PA to announce each hitter, they all appeared on the Jumbo Tron, gave each kid a hat and shirt and gave out prizes to everyone. There was no cost to the participants. Over 300 kids showed up.

When it was one 5 year old boy's turn to hit, we noticed he didn’t seem to want any part of this. His mom gave him a big hug in the on deck circle and sent him up to hit. He got half way to the plate and came running back to his mom crying. Then the same exact process was repeated with the boy running back to his mom. After many hugs and pleading from Mom he finally went up to hit. The portable fence was about 65-70 feet and as luck would have it, he hit a home run on his very first swing. There were about 500 people in the park and they cheered louder than any 500 people I’ve ever heard.

Each hitter got 10 swings and we announced last swing before the 10th swing. Then they would run to 1st base where a former Major League player would shake their hand and pat them on the back. Anyway this young boy who was so afraid to go up and hit, finished swing #9 and we announced "Last Swing". He was over his fear and was having no part of leaving the batters box after only 10 swings. He now could not get enough! We gave him a couple more and when he finally ran to first base he jumped up in the air to give Ron Hunt a high five with a great big smile on his face. I don’t know who was happier, the young boy, his mom, or the rest of us.

I'm guessing that this 5 year old boy will remember that day for the rest of his life! Not sure I will either! Baseball can sure be a blast sometimes. Smile
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