How would you feel if the players on your sons team were taking steroids, got an advantage and took your sons spot on the team?
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If players gained an unfair physical advantage because of steroid usage, I would feel sorry for them for 2 reasons:
>>despite what "Savannah" says in another thread about the supposed "exaggeration" of the harmful side effects, I sincerely believe that they would reap the negative health effects as they got older;
>>in the long run, they are not winners ... they are losers who couldn't find in themselves what it really takes to be successful.
>>despite what "Savannah" says in another thread about the supposed "exaggeration" of the harmful side effects, I sincerely believe that they would reap the negative health effects as they got older;
>>in the long run, they are not winners ... they are losers who couldn't find in themselves what it really takes to be successful.
THIS IS SIMPLY JUST A SIGN OF THE TIMES! A kid sees professionals do this and they get a slap on the wrist. Certainly, no records will be stripped. Therefore, the problem is only if you get caught. Then, simply deny! Enron etc. have proven our societal focus. Most, if not all of the big dogs will escape prosecution. Schools recruit and high school associations don't do anything about it. Schools hold illegal practices and, as with the case of Illinois, instead of punishing offenders and getting stricter, they open up more time during the summer to practice which, in turn, means that a team will now have 25 legal contact days and then only have 40 illegal contact days because they still won't stop the illegal practices. Coaches teach their kids to cheat. They rationalize this by saying that rules are there to protect poor coaches. Since they want to coach, they can break the rules for the sake of the kid. Well, I could go on and on. Sorry for getting to long in this response.
This may be a sign of the times.....but I think its about time someone started to do something to change the times. Sen McCain has atleast taken an agressive stand on the matter.He said he doesnt care about Bonds or Giambi but its all about the high school players Its about the effect it could have on them....Things were so simpler years ago...
quote:
How would you feel if the players on your sons team were taking steroids, got an advantage and took your sons spot on the team?
How would you feel if you found out later in life the player had physical repercussions because he took the steroids and you said nothing? Throwing the fact in that he took your sons position would be secondary, maybe
.
What’s the big deal?
Maybe the kid eventually gets big and strong, becomes an outstanding player, sets records and makes people lots of money? Who cares if he cheats? Who cares if he is a role model for younger players? Who cares if others start taking steroids just to keep pace?
Maybe the kid eventually gets big and strong, becomes an outstanding player, sets records and makes people lots of money? Who cares if he cheats? Who cares if he is a role model for younger players? Who cares if others start taking steroids just to keep pace?
SBK,
I care for the obvious reasons. Your comment surpises me.
I care for the obvious reasons. Your comment surpises me.
RZ,
It may be obvious to you and it may be obvious to me and just about everyone here. It may even be obvious to some members of congress but it’s obviously not obvious to a couple of people on this board or the people in MLB that need to do the obvious.
What’s obvious anymore anyway? Recently I have had a couple of seemingly knowledgeable baseball people on this board try to tell me that strength doesn’t increase a hitters ability to be a better hitter. If that’s not obvious, what is obvious any more?
It may be obvious to you and it may be obvious to me and just about everyone here. It may even be obvious to some members of congress but it’s obviously not obvious to a couple of people on this board or the people in MLB that need to do the obvious.
What’s obvious anymore anyway? Recently I have had a couple of seemingly knowledgeable baseball people on this board try to tell me that strength doesn’t increase a hitters ability to be a better hitter. If that’s not obvious, what is obvious any more?
SBK,
I see your angle. You took me off guard.
I agree that sometimes we can't believe what we read. But, then again I don't believe what I wrote sometimes
. If everyone agreed on everything why have a "forum". Sometimes we have to sit back take a deep breath and say to ourselves, "They must not have understood the question" and then move on.
I see your angle. You took me off guard.
quote:
What’s obvious anymore anyway? Recently I have had a couple of seemingly knowledgeable baseball people on this board try to tell me that strength doesn’t increase a hitters ability to be a better hitter. If that’s not obvious, what is obvious any more?
I agree that sometimes we can't believe what we read. But, then again I don't believe what I wrote sometimes
. If everyone agreed on everything why have a "forum". Sometimes we have to sit back take a deep breath and say to ourselves, "They must not have understood the question" and then move on.
Good point being made about players not being able to find it "within themselves" to be
successful without going the unethical route. When we as parents look the other way when we
know a player is using drugs for any reason I think we are almost as guilty as the the offender. Naturally, the whistleblower is going to be labeled a "rat" and "goody two shoes"
but I believe as a society we have become fearful of doing the right thing because of perceived repercussions against us.
A son of a good friend committed to a D1 SEC school only to find out on an "Official Visit"
that he was expected to "use the stuff" to bulk up. He immediately told his father and they
promptly withdrew the committment and attended another SEC school( with a lot of difficulty
getting out of the prior commitment). Without any help other than hard work he proceeded to
break the single season hit record(over 100) and stolen base record for that school. He also
holds a batting title now(South Atlantic League). Point being success is possible without
going the unethical route. It's what is between the ears that matters the most.
successful without going the unethical route. When we as parents look the other way when we
know a player is using drugs for any reason I think we are almost as guilty as the the offender. Naturally, the whistleblower is going to be labeled a "rat" and "goody two shoes"
but I believe as a society we have become fearful of doing the right thing because of perceived repercussions against us.
A son of a good friend committed to a D1 SEC school only to find out on an "Official Visit"
that he was expected to "use the stuff" to bulk up. He immediately told his father and they
promptly withdrew the committment and attended another SEC school( with a lot of difficulty
getting out of the prior commitment). Without any help other than hard work he proceeded to
break the single season hit record(over 100) and stolen base record for that school. He also
holds a batting title now(South Atlantic League). Point being success is possible without
going the unethical route. It's what is between the ears that matters the most.
quote:
A son of a good friend committed to a D1 SEC school only to find out on an "Official Visit"
that he was expected to "use the stuff" to bulk up. He immediately told his father and they
promptly withdrew the committment and attended another SEC school( with a lot of difficulty
getting out of the prior commitment).
Moc1,
This raises some questions because some things don't ring true... Do you know what "the stuff" was? Was it illegal?
What problems did he encounter when he decided to ignore his previous commitment?
Thanks,
Fungo
Without condoning steroids, which I do not:
These are professional players. Their job is to win, period. If they're not winning, they're losing. And that's how they lose their jobs, period.
You hear the phrase, "whatever it takes" a lot in pro sports. They'll take any edge they can get. And this is nothing new.
stealing signals
Corked bat
maple bat
Spitball
Shineball
scuffed ball
pills
creatine
DMSO
steroids
Are some worse than others? Of course. But they're all, to the professional, nothing more than an edge. One percent, two percent, maybe 5 percent. To the amateur player, that's a so what, not enough to make the risks worth the reward in most cases.
But to the professional, whatever it takes.
Someone built the better mousetrap. Fortunately, they finally got caught and that will be illegal. But let's not kid ourselves: Someone, someplace is working on the next edge, right now.
And we won't know about it until they're caught.
All we can do as parents is to explain to our children that if YOU do this, it is not acceptable. And hope it takes should they be fortunate enough to get there.
These are professional players. Their job is to win, period. If they're not winning, they're losing. And that's how they lose their jobs, period.
You hear the phrase, "whatever it takes" a lot in pro sports. They'll take any edge they can get. And this is nothing new.
stealing signals
Corked bat
maple bat
Spitball
Shineball
scuffed ball
pills
creatine
DMSO
steroids
Are some worse than others? Of course. But they're all, to the professional, nothing more than an edge. One percent, two percent, maybe 5 percent. To the amateur player, that's a so what, not enough to make the risks worth the reward in most cases.
But to the professional, whatever it takes.
Someone built the better mousetrap. Fortunately, they finally got caught and that will be illegal. But let's not kid ourselves: Someone, someplace is working on the next edge, right now.
And we won't know about it until they're caught.
All we can do as parents is to explain to our children that if YOU do this, it is not acceptable. And hope it takes should they be fortunate enough to get there.
quote:
These are professional players. Their job is to win, period. If they're not winning, they're losing. And that's how they lose their jobs, period.
You hear the phrase, "whatever it takes" a lot in pro sports. They'll take any edge they can get. And this is nothing new.
As the devils advocate, three questions-
1. Are you cheating if you do something that is to your advantage but is not a written rule? (Example- existing steroid policy)
2. If an action results in breaking a written rule, you are caught, and suffer the penalty, are you a cheater or a rule-breaker? (Example- Sosa's corked bat)
3. If your son dives and knowingly traps a line drive, leaps up and holds it up as a catch, is he cheating or doing whatever it takes?
Fungo-You are correct-it does bring up a few questions-the player felt he was being asked
to do something borderline and when he did further investigation he felt it in his best interest to attend another school. It was very difficult getting out of the committment.
You have an E-mail
to do something borderline and when he did further investigation he felt it in his best interest to attend another school. It was very difficult getting out of the committment.
You have an E-mail
rz1
I'll take your questions and raise you:
If the substance you take hasn't been discovered yet, how can it be illegal?
A rule-breaker is a cheater once he is caught. But a cheater isn't a rule-breaker until he is caught. And a non-rule breaker can be thought of as a cheater. But until he is caught, how can that be right?
Heck, this is so good we could teach a logic class.
I'll take your questions and raise you:
If the substance you take hasn't been discovered yet, how can it be illegal?
A rule-breaker is a cheater once he is caught. But a cheater isn't a rule-breaker until he is caught. And a non-rule breaker can be thought of as a cheater. But until he is caught, how can that be right?
Heck, this is so good we could teach a logic class.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/invoke.cfm?objectid=7C05F9A5-A456-4391-AE4457129F6337A1&si=2687
Just in case you have not read enough on this, here is an article that I just found.
Just in case you have not read enough on this, here is an article that I just found.
Sark29...
Good information!
Good information!
OldVA, it can be illegal -- I posted this on another thread:
Anabolic steroids have been illegal at least since 2001 unless prescribed and dispensed by licensed physicians. That's for all people in the US, not just ballplayers.
Of course, THG wasn't known at that time, and was just added to the list of banned substances in March. But it's not necessary that a chemical composition be specifically banned to justify punishment for its use, it just has to be chemically similar to one explicitly stated as banned. If the use of the substance in question is for the same ends as one on the banned list and it can be shown that the reason for choosing the substance in question was specifically to circumvent detection, there are legal precedents for punishment. (Kelli White was banned from competing for two years and from the summer's Olympic Games and stripped of her 2003 World Champion gold medals and all previous medals dating back to 2000, despite no test even existing for THG until 2003; Calvin Harrison was punished for using modafinil despite his lawyer's argument that, because modafinil was not specifically named on the banned substance list in 2003, Harrison had no way of knowing it was prohibited. The USADA's response was that modafinil was prohibited in 2003 because it was chemically related to stimulants named on the list of banned substances.)
The whole reason for developing THG was to circumvent steroid testing. That fact, alone, makes THG banned by proxy. Legally speaking, if Bonds used THG in 2001, the courts and/or MLB could easily go back and impose 2001 level punishment on Bonds for the use, as if it was a banned substance.
-------------------------------
That's why the players had to be offered immunity to testify before the Grand Jury: should they admit to taking steroids, they were admitting to having broken the law, whether MLB had a policy about it or not.
Cheaters or rule-breakers? One is slightly more pejorative in tone than the other, but it's still the same thing. (An ace up your sleeve breaks the rules of poker, but we'd call it cheating!)
A spitball would be both, as would taking steroids. One gains the advantage for that pitch; the other steals records and awards, and extends your career to take the job from someone else. Telling a lie and armed robbery are both wrong, but I think we'd all agree one is a lot worse than the other. Just as we wouldn't want to see lying punished by a jail sentence, we wouldn't want to see armed robbery ignored because the perp was really good at what he does.
Anabolic steroids have been illegal at least since 2001 unless prescribed and dispensed by licensed physicians. That's for all people in the US, not just ballplayers.
Of course, THG wasn't known at that time, and was just added to the list of banned substances in March. But it's not necessary that a chemical composition be specifically banned to justify punishment for its use, it just has to be chemically similar to one explicitly stated as banned. If the use of the substance in question is for the same ends as one on the banned list and it can be shown that the reason for choosing the substance in question was specifically to circumvent detection, there are legal precedents for punishment. (Kelli White was banned from competing for two years and from the summer's Olympic Games and stripped of her 2003 World Champion gold medals and all previous medals dating back to 2000, despite no test even existing for THG until 2003; Calvin Harrison was punished for using modafinil despite his lawyer's argument that, because modafinil was not specifically named on the banned substance list in 2003, Harrison had no way of knowing it was prohibited. The USADA's response was that modafinil was prohibited in 2003 because it was chemically related to stimulants named on the list of banned substances.)
The whole reason for developing THG was to circumvent steroid testing. That fact, alone, makes THG banned by proxy. Legally speaking, if Bonds used THG in 2001, the courts and/or MLB could easily go back and impose 2001 level punishment on Bonds for the use, as if it was a banned substance.
-------------------------------
That's why the players had to be offered immunity to testify before the Grand Jury: should they admit to taking steroids, they were admitting to having broken the law, whether MLB had a policy about it or not.
Cheaters or rule-breakers? One is slightly more pejorative in tone than the other, but it's still the same thing. (An ace up your sleeve breaks the rules of poker, but we'd call it cheating!)
A spitball would be both, as would taking steroids. One gains the advantage for that pitch; the other steals records and awards, and extends your career to take the job from someone else. Telling a lie and armed robbery are both wrong, but I think we'd all agree one is a lot worse than the other. Just as we wouldn't want to see lying punished by a jail sentence, we wouldn't want to see armed robbery ignored because the perp was really good at what he does.
Of course it's cheating and it's illegal.
Owner's, MLB and Player's Association are equally responsible for letting this nonsense go on for as long at it has.
MLB players get tested once a year and they know when it's coming and then they have to test positive five times before they are knocked out. What a joke.
Let's face it, the players are making a bundle, the owners sell their tickets, and MLB profits from all those juiced homeruns.
It just makes me disgusted. The really sad thing is that the repercussions later in life are very sad. Tumors and rapid brain cancer are an awful way to go.
Maybe they should start two leagues.
One for players who have some integrity and don't use the roids or "enhancers" and then another league for the 'roid boy heroes who are ready to "pump it up".
It will be interesting to see who will still be alive to talk about the good old days 20 years from now.
Owner's, MLB and Player's Association are equally responsible for letting this nonsense go on for as long at it has.
MLB players get tested once a year and they know when it's coming and then they have to test positive five times before they are knocked out. What a joke.
Let's face it, the players are making a bundle, the owners sell their tickets, and MLB profits from all those juiced homeruns.
It just makes me disgusted. The really sad thing is that the repercussions later in life are very sad. Tumors and rapid brain cancer are an awful way to go.
Maybe they should start two leagues.
One for players who have some integrity and don't use the roids or "enhancers" and then another league for the 'roid boy heroes who are ready to "pump it up".
It will be interesting to see who will still be alive to talk about the good old days 20 years from now.
No one has bit on question 3
My point is that rules are meant to provide structure and balance to the game. Morally we hold some rules in higher regard than others. ARod who slaps the ball out of a glove is reprimanded and catagorized as a cheater, a fans favorite that intentionally goes in hard at 2nd illeagaly out of the baseline to break up a double play is "playing hard". And the situations go on and on....
quote:
As the devils advocate, three questions-
1. Are you cheating if you do something that is to your advantage but is not a written rule? (Example- existing steroid policy)
2. If an action results in breaking a written rule, you are caught, and suffer the penalty, are you a cheater or a rule-breaker? (Example- Sosa's corked bat)
3. If your son dives and knowingly traps a line drive, leaps up and holds it up as a catch, is he cheating or doing whatever it takes?
My point is that rules are meant to provide structure and balance to the game. Morally we hold some rules in higher regard than others. ARod who slaps the ball out of a glove is reprimanded and catagorized as a cheater, a fans favorite that intentionally goes in hard at 2nd illeagaly out of the baseline to break up a double play is "playing hard". And the situations go on and on....
Sark,
Interesting article.
After reading the article it appears that there’s a good chance a lot of major leaguers are using smaller balls than they used to, if you know what I mean.
Interesting article.
After reading the article it appears that there’s a good chance a lot of major leaguers are using smaller balls than they used to, if you know what I mean.