Two way players

What starts in MLB will trickle down to college ball. Look at players like Freel, Figgins, and Wigginton, along with former player Joe McEwing...they all have value to their teams playing 3-4 different positions. To answer your question, I think that, with the roster rules in college, I think you will see many more players going mound to position. If a player is talented enough, the scouts will find him.

As far as younger players in HS, I think the "multi-positional" player often gets the shaft, because they don't concentrate at one area, and the college coaches have a hard time projecting where they would fit in, instead of simply embracing the fact that a player could help them in SEVERAL areas. My son faced this, and I have a good friend who's son faced the same thing.

Deldad,
This is not really a new thing for many programs. Many players recruited are or have been multiple position players, often pitchers.

In college baseball, I have seen many position players come from the OF and go to the mound, and even seen a catcher on many occasions leave behind the dish and take the mound.

Programs that rely on their pitching staff heavily will still recruit players for starting pitcher position only. There is too much at risk for the possibility of injury. Good reliable arms for starters are hard hard to come by, but maybe as relievers or closers it is a possibility.

Taking my son's school as an example, many times position players are converted to pitchers, and when they do settle in, usually do not go back to playing their other position. We did have one player do that this year and I think that unless it is hard to replace his bat this year, he will now be a pure starter only. We also had another player a few years ago, Kris Harvey (son of Bryan) who was a starter and our DH who led the ACC in HR's. He was drafted second round as a position player, with the posssibility of pitching if things did not work out.

Good recruiting coaches recruit IF/OF for athletic ability, not soley on one position played in HS. Recruits have to be coachable and willing to learn new positions in any situation. That is what will get you into a good program, the ability to learn and adapt to the team needs. Most of the players I know on son's team, didn't always play the position they played in HS.

The problem is, most coaches will not take the time to truely watch a player long enough to evaluate his ability.

quote:

Originally posted by JT:
As far as younger players in HS, I think the "multi-positional" player often gets the shaft, because they don't concentrate at one area, and the college coaches have a hard time projecting where they would fit in, instead of simply embracing the fact that a player could help them in SEVERAL areas. My son faced this, and I have a good friend who's son faced the same thing.

My son will be in the same position. He could be the heir apparent at short his soph year. But the high school coach saw him catch one day when he was watching the middle school practice and told him my son he could possibly start as a frosh if he catches. He's a burner and shouldn't be catching to save his legs, but he'll do it for the team and play middle infield for his travel team. High school is only 22-25 games anyway. The flip side is my son can play all nine positions. Coaches like versatility along with athletic ability. Then they can sort out positions later.

But TPM, are designated starters a luxury that all schools are going to be able to afford. Clemson and some of the other big name schools will still get kids to walk on but some of the mid major and nothern schools are going to have to be a lot more creative with the reduced roster sizes, scholarship requirements and compressed schedule.

Obviously it will be a little more taxing on arms but when has that bothered some coaches.

I am aware of all the kids who have done both, but will that become the rule as opposed to the exception?

I believe coaches (at all levels) do get distracted by The Current Big Thing. Randy Johnson appears and the average height for pitchers increases. Mike Piazza appears and the catching position shifts from D to O. Cal Ripken's performance makes traditionally small MIFs look as if they may become an endangered species. If Owings keeps up his performance will they actually start to look for hr power from pitchers?!

It's always difficult to talk about 'the rule', even limiting the discussion to D1's. Would that be Oregon, UNC, Texas, etc....or Joe Bloggs University? At the top of the heap, they might take a high-calibre two-way player because they can; at the middle or bottom, it would be because they have to.

I think it would be safe to say that most players who make it to college ball have pitched at some point. And as you, deldad, were saying the other day, the Angels give their potential releases a chance to rekindle their pitching. Good plan. Although I'd wonder if a college could emulate that very effectively just because of time and personnel limitations.

As far as two-way, I think a pitcher - OF/1st base combo works best for the health of their arm. My limited experience has been that the left side of the IF throwing motion is too close and can mess with their pitching mechanics.

Versatility is, IMHO, more of an advantage for the coach than the player, if PT and the next level are of concern to that player. A quality player can, of course, play many positions, but may not excel or enjoy each one. Concentrating on one position gives him the chance to hone his skills and show himself to his best advantage. Colleges (and the pros) are no shy about switching a guy's position to suit their needs.

But first the player has to get noticed. Scouts/coaches don't watch a player for extended periods of time; I would think seeing a player progress at, say, shortstop woould give them a better feel than seeing him at short this season, LF next, and 1B at a showcase. How complicated do you want to make it? If your son is the next Owings, you don't need this advice. But the "just" good ballplayer needs to consider a range of implications.

Great Post Orlando,

The one thing I'm more concerned with, Is the Player that is a 2 way player.
And then has to choose a position , Are have it choosen for him.
Are they happy, Do they realize it's probably for the better.
To concentrate and are specialize on one position.
To be the best you could be at that position.

Who's to say that's there best position?
I think it would be better for the player to realize early that he may have to choose one day.

EH

My son has always played two way - even through his high school career. (short/pitch) As he was being scouted/recruited - some scouts/coaches saw him as JUST a pitcher and other's wanted him on 3rd. I think these guys didn't take the time to really watch him play at short, but simply b/c of his height he was projected as a 3rd baseman. Absolutely his options (offers) were limited once he made the decision to hold out and play college ball as a two way guy. Now... that just may change any day, but - atleast he remained true to what he wanted prior to signing.

From our experience, I think it's more rare to have a college two way player, than not.

A concern of mine... If you've always been a two way guy, how can you learn to, let's say - become a pitcher only? Sitting and waiting your turn isn't a pretty picture to a guy who has always been in the heat of the game.

What was the question again?

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
We also had another player a few years ago, Kris Harvey (son of Bryan) who was a starter and our DH who led the ACC in HR's. He was drafted second round as a position player, with the possibility of pitching if things did not work out.

TPM; Have you heard how Kris is progressing? His senior year in HS he used to catch bullpens for my son down in "the barn" at Bryan's. Always wore a white cowboy hat with pine tar on the bill. Have kind of lost track since he was drafted. Now my son is a FR at UNC-Asheville and he said that Bryan is coaching the Pitcher's with the Asheville Tourists (minor league team). I always thought they were very nice people. Bryan even sold my son one of his GSHP bird dogs, which my son promptly turned into a pet.

As for the multiple positions situation, my son is one who has had to live with that. Played 1st, 3rd, C, and Pitched in HS. Kind of moved around to shore up positions of need and allowed the pitching rotation to be more flexible. In Legion ball he even played SS & 2nd. It may have hurt him some in the eyes of college recruiters, particularly at those showcases where you were only allowed to work out at one position, as he may not be as polished at a particular position as some because he split practice time between various positions and threw bullpens and caught bullpens. Fortunately the coach at UNC-A did like his versatility and his bat/size/athletic ability and said they could find a place for him - possibly even in the OF - if he came in ready to play.

Sometimes things do work out.

With the schedules that I have been looking at with doubleheaders on Saturdays and Sundays, two way players who can hit and contribute will be in high demand.

Most often pitchers were team leaders who also played other positions. It is not until high school that many players become pigeon-holed at one position.

Pitchers who can actually play other positions and hit will be just below the decent fielding home run hitter on most colleges shopping lists.

quote:

Originally posted by deldad:

I am aware of all the kids who have done both, but will that become the rule as opposed to the exception?

Good question. I am not sure. But it is common on may teams, even that larger programs. I am not sure I would consider it a new trend.

I have always stated that being a verstile player with tools will get you a position on a college roster, no matter what position you play.
It is virtually impossible for a regular starter putting in 100 innings in a short season to play another position when not pitching, arm will eventually give out. It is not impossible for a position player to help the pitching staff.

What trend I think is going to change is pitchers getting less scholarship money due to scholarhsip amounts increasing. Top pitching prospects will consider pro after HS.

I think Orlando made some great points.

Great example, two very talented players go to Clemson, Taylor Harbin and Stan Widman. Both considered for ss and very talented. Did the coach need 2 great short stops? No. One got the position as ss, the other converted to second base after playing ss in HS. They were recruited because they were talented and athletic players who were adaptable.

Folks, how many of your players in college have changed positions from HS?

quote:

Originally posted by Michael'sDad:

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
We also had another player a few years ago, Kris Harvey (son of Bryan) who was a starter and our DH who led the ACC in HR's. He was drafted second round as a position player, with the possibility of pitching if things did not work out.

TPM; Have you heard how Kris is progressing? His senior year in HS he used to catch bullpens for my son down in "the barn" at Bryan's. Always wore a white cowboy hat with pine tar on the bill. Have kind of lost track since he was drafted. Now my son is a FR at UNC-Asheville and he said that Bryan is coaching the Pitcher's with the Asheville Tourists (minor league team). I always thought they were very nice people. Bryan even sold my son one of his GSHP bird dogs, which my son promptly turned into a pet.

Kris plays for the Jupiter Hammerheads, Marlin High A. He told me his dad was now a pitching coach for them.
Bryan Harvey would help work with pitchers at Clemson when Kris was there, really nice, down home North Carolina type of guy. He was always so positive with DK.

I'll play devils advocate.

Like most, my son played 1B/OF when not pitching in HS. He knew ultimately what he thought he could excel at and went in that direction.

Here is an excerpt from one of Fungo's posts (sorry Luke if I'm overstepping my boundary) about what he would have done differently (his son was a star catcher/pitcher/infielder at Auburn). IMO the Micah Owings, etc...types are few and far between. If your goal is to play past college, I agree with Fungo's assessment.

quote:

I think the first thing I would have done was help him focus on one position. As a two way player in high school and college and having changed positions twice in pro ball he is still unsure as to where his baseball future lies. Playing multiple positions does provide additional opportunities at the hs and college level it also hinders the player from maximizing his growth at one position. This could ultimately hurt at HIS highest level.

I agree with Fungo that the jack of all trades master of none approach, may hurt players going from college to the pros.

I forgot to add in the earlier posts that in addition to the compressed schedule, scholarship requirements, reduced roster size, the inability to over recruit now that the transfer rules have changed may also make college coaches cover more bases by going after players that can pitch and play a position.

Pre-hs, LL ball, my son was one of those play-every-position guys. This meant the guys limited to one position were placed first, then he filled the most crucial hole. In travel ball, he primarily caught, ate up a few innings pitching when necessary, and on rare occasions filled in at other spots.

When he entered hs, it was his decision to catch only. The hs coach didn't know the players (or all that much about baseball, but I digress ), and my son didn't want to be pigeonholed as Utility Guy, waiting for someone who owned a position to get hurt. If your player wants to be a starter, he needs a primary position and I would recommend introducing himslef as that position. Once established, he can trot out his other talents without risking starter status.

Whether it's a tournament or a showcase, your player needs to stand out to get attention. How do you 'display' multiple-position versatility? You can, however, give the recruiter/scout credit for being able to see how the player's tools would apply to their needs.

quote:

If your player wants to be a starter, he needs a primary position and I would recommend introducing himself as that position. Once established, he can trot out his other talents without risking starter status.

We know a kid who played for a very large high school program, which basically "reloaded" every year. Finally, it was his turn to play and the new coach asked him which position he preferred -- OF or 1B. He tried to be very easy-going and said either was fine, he really didn't care. Coach ended up starting juniors at both positions who had "specialized" and our friend was used as a DH. It was a miserable senior year for him.

quote:

Will this hurt the professional possibilities of players if they are ask to be multi-dimensional, instead of allowing them time to develop the skills necessary to either pitch or play a position at the professional level?

This thread and some of the questions brings 3 players immediately to mind:
The first is a Stanford grad who played in Omaha in the CWS in 3 of his 4 years. During that time, he played 1st, short, 3rd, left, center and right and played them all pretty interchangeably and at a very high level. He ended up being drafted as a 2B where he never played in college. Before very serious medical conditions intervened, he proved himself to be one of the very top picks in his draft class.
The second player is our son. In college he started as a 2B and ended as a shortstop. In summer leagues he played primarily 2B and 3B. In professional ball, the ability to play all 3 positions got him a chance for more AB's and once he got that chance, his ability to hit, combined with his versatility, lead to him playing more games than anyone on his minor league team.
The 3rd player in a Giant's rookie. He has always played 2B at every level. Now, at the major league level, he is a utility player. He has struggled quite a bit this year, especially with the bat. He readily admits that the adjustments have been extremely hard physically and mentally and probably contributed to some of the struggles. If he can adjust to that role, he clearly will have a chance to be a major leaguer for a long time.
If you listen to the draft, you will hear a substantial number of players drafted at positions they did not play in high school or college. I do believe professional scouts know the criterion for positions in professional ball and can project accordingly. That approach and ability is different with college coaches but I think that is largely because the goals in college can be so much different that professional ball.
Our experience is different than that noted by Frank and Fungo. In the cases I cited, and for our son, versatility was a major plus for him at every step after high school.
On the other hand, the ability to catch and stand out at the professional level might be different than any other position. You do not see many minor leaguers who catch and play other positions. So again, being versatile may also have limitations and actually be an impediment when you involve the catching position.

quote:

Originally posted by deldad:
If I were a college coach I would recruit as many pitcher/position players as possible. The days of specialization in the college game may be coming to an end.

My son, a pitcher, took BP once last year (the pitching staff was rewarded for working hard). Coach happened to see it and asked if he would be willing to put in the extra work to play a position or DH in addition to starting games on the bump this year. Again I agree with TPM, many coaches just don't take the time to fully evaluate what they have. I think deldad's premise is eventually going to hold true in college. But I don't see it changing the way MLB handles pitchers.

infielddad,

Your instances involve mostly infield positions which I agree are somewhat interchangeable. My premise mostly involved the catching and pitching aspects which IMO is a much bigger adjustment which you also acknowledged.

Listening to the draft, there were many players chosen at other than the positions they played in HS and college. Many SS are moved to 2B at the next level.

quote:

Many SS are moved to 2B at the next level.

If the SS's are moved to 2nd, where do they get their final SS position from?

The reason I ask is because it seems to me that alot of HS SS's are moved to a different position at the college level.
If that is indeed so,... who finally gets the SS position and what position did they play before?

No, I think the majors will still treat players the same way they do now.

I just think that the changes we are seeing in college baseball will make some of these two way players very desirable, much to the detriment of their future development.

quote:

Originally posted by FrankF:
infielddad,

Your instances involve mostly infield positions which I agree are somewhat interchangeable. My premise mostly involved the catching and pitching aspects which IMO is a much bigger adjustment which you also acknowledged.

Listening to the draft, there were many players chosen at other than the positions they played in HS and college. Many SS are moved to 2B at the next level.

Frank, for the most part, I agree the adjustment between pitching/catching is more difficult, if not impossible.
From talking with our son and his friends,including the Stanford grad, rotating between the left and right side of the infield is much harder than it appears. It is especially difficult because of the mechanics and footwork around 2B on the double play.
When you watch them do it on a daily basis, however, they sure seem to make the transition pretty smoothly.
Maybe it's because those that rotate infield positions are more athletic????

There will likely always be some 2-way guys on college teams. But the higher you go, the harder it is to keep up with both jobs, in terms of conditioning, preparation, and being able to rise to the level of your competition and perform well enough to keep both jobs. It's hard enough to land one job on a team and keep it, let alone two.

As one example, I think most people would tell you that Sean Doolittle at UVA wore down and underperformed both as a LHP and as an offensive player last year. Had he done only one and not the other, his numbers most likely would've been markedly better in the chosen position.

Most 2-way guys I see pitch as relievers, not as weekend starters. Doolittle was an exception as was Owings. It's just tough to play a position when you went 110 pitches yesterday.

As for the impact of the new NCAA rules on recruiting, I do see a new emphasis on recruiting utility guys -- the bench player who can fill in at several positions, serving as an insurance policy in case of injury to any one of 3-4 starters. E.g., a guy who can handle infield AND outfield, or maybe serve as the emergency catcher. He may not be the projected starter at any one position, but he may end up starting a lot of games by the time a season runs its course.

In this scouting process we both (son and I) are learning from the colleges what THEY see my son playing in THEIR eyes. My son loves playing everyday as an infielder but he also loves to toe the rubber equally as much. He has come to a tough conclusion that he may pitch at the next level be it every 4 or 5 days (if he isn't used in another capacity).

About Owings. I saw him hit a ball during HS playoff's that truly traveled about 425ft easily and pitched during the game hitting 92-93 all game long. He needed only 1 more bomb to break the National HS record for homeruns during a HS career (69) I believe it is. At 6'5 he is a monster with raw power and talent. My son happened to be in the room the other day when Micah called his old HS coach and on speaker phone mentioned that they (Ariz) asked him what he thought about playing some outfield. There you go.