Two-way players

quote:

He still wants to hit and pitch.

Then he should imho. I guess the nagging question in the back of someone's mind is are you "robbing Peter to pay Paul?"

Micah Owings and Tim Hudson are two great college 2-way players that come to mind. Fungo's son followed Hudson at Auburn and also had a fine 2-way career. My son's college has produced two, 2-way All-Americans in the past five years who are both now hitters in the pros.

Personally, if I was forced to choose, I would choose to be a hitter. Many more opportunites to actually play the game. Don't get me wrong, if my son were a pitcher, I would be all for it.

Check out Scott Lyman at UC Davis.
He is likely to be gone in the MLB draft of 2011 by the end of the sandwich round.
Is 92-94 on the mound...they start him on Sundays.
Plays RF/LF in all other games and is one of their leading hitters, batting 3rd/4th in the line up.
The one adjustment the staff made last year related to his DHing when he pitched.
After 3-4 starts, they detected he did not hit well as the DH when he was pitching. Once they saw that, the change occurred and on Sundays, they limited his role to being the starting pitcher.
By using him on Sunday, he has natural day off before a mid-week game for recovery, also.
He is a real talent, but more likely projects as a pitcher in the draft.
Yes, it can be and is done.

Personally I would go for it. At my son's school, the freshman DH will most likely be the closer and there are a couple other 2 way guys as well.

When the time comes to specialize and focus on one area, I'm sure the coach will let him know.

infielddad.

You will see more two way guys in the Big West but very few in the PAC-10. UCDavis likes them BTW. My son has been recruited by a number of Big West programs as a two way, and all of the PAC-10 programs have been one way or the other. As others have posted in general the higher the level of play the more specialized you become.

If your son's coach wants him to do it and he can keep up his skills in both, I would say go for it.

Often times, coaches promise the in-coming player that he can do both and then he sees that the work load is too much to throw bull pens, condition for the pitcher, and work on hitting and fielding, so they end up having him specialize, or the coach just blows smoke up the player's rear to get him to come on board and has no real intention to let him do that.

There was a pitcher who was a very good hitter in high school, he was told by his first college they wanted him to come as a two way player, he passed up other schools which offered more money, but since he wanted to be a two way player, he passed them up. He got on campus and played through the fall, the last time he swong for the coach he put a ball on the top of the score board in a fall game at a parent's day. The coach just smiled and the player never saw the inside of the batter's box again.

The player transfered a year latter. The player is now a pitcher only at his new college because he had not seen live pitching for two years and had lost his swing.

Thanks for the good advise. Just a Dad, now sitting at home, with too much time on his hands, worrying about things my son has no thoughts about. I appreciate you all putting my mind at ease.

quote:

Originally posted by birdman14:
Just a Dad, now sitting at home, with too much time on his hands, worrying about things my son has no thoughts about.

That's what parents get paid to do. It is definitely within their pay grade

Seriously, I can worry just as well as the next guy and even invent things in my mind that never come true. I remember when my son got his first start in a college game and my wife and I were almost afraid to breath for fear that something might go wrong. He had a wonderful game that day but there was a moment where he tried to beat out an infield hit where it looked like he twisted his ankle at first base. All you could hear from the stands was "No, No, No, please God no!!!" which was yelled by one mortified father wanting to see his son do well and certainly not wanting to see his son's first starting opportunity snuffed out before it even got a chance to begin.

It is what it is at this point. You can help your son by controlling your expectations and supporting him 100% no matter where the chips may fall. He can help himself by controlling what he can control. The things he can control are attitude and effort. He cannot control the coach's decision. You'll find as time goes along that these feelings will subside but they never go completely away frankly. It's what we do as parents.

What a flash back.

I remember watching Micah Owings play highschool ball here locally and he could hit a baseball a doggone mile.

I think he still holds the Georgia HS homerun record in a season.

quote:

Originally posted by birdman14:
Thanks for the good advise. Just a Dad, now sitting at home, with too much time on his hands, worrying about things my son has no thoughts about. I appreciate you all putting my mind at ease.

BOF is correct, the higher the level of play the more specialized.
Owings transfered from GTech to Tulane because HC would not allow him to be a two way player anymore. If he stayed at GTech as pitcher only most likely he would have been a first rounder (my opinion).

Why worry about it, this is something that you have no control over and probably won't be determined until the season. He may not be able to do both. The coach may not want him to do both.

Just sit back and enjoy the ride.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

Just sit back and enjoy the ride.

TPM - I don't know if you remember, but you gave me the same advise last year before his senior year. It was good advise.

This topic is of most interest for me. My son is 2013 grad and currently a 2 way player -- RHP & SS/3b/2b. Good hitter and great hands. Was a catcher growing up through travel ball. HS coach moved him to SS last year to keep him in the line up when not pitching. We're starting to feel the pull towards PO but are resisting. It may be mostly dad because I don't want him to give up the bat so easily but he's beginging to realize his best opportunity to get to a D1 major, his goal not mine, in on the bump. Should I keep encouraging him to hit and field or give up the ghost?

Why encourage anything at this point? Just about every kid who can pitch and play the game are two way players in high school. Just let him play the game everything will sort itself out in time. If the team needs him to play the field, hit and pitch then thats what he needs to do. If the team decides he needs to simply focus on one then thats what he needs to do during the hs season.

There are many two way players to enter college programs. There are very few who actually get the chance to be two players once in college. Some programs you are simply not going to be a two way player there. I dont care how well you swing it. Its not going to happen. Some programs will give kids a fair shot at being two way players.

My advice is to allow your son to simply play the game and work on being the best player he can be. And if he gets the chance to be a two way player in college great. And if he does not then great. If it is very important to him to get the chance to be a two way player in college then make sure the program has a history of two way players in their program. If they say we will allow you to be a two way player or we see you as a two way player --- but they have not had one for several years or only one in the last few years you need to consider this very strongly.

One of the best hs hitters I ever saw was also a great rhp. He signed with a local major D1. He wanted the chance to be a 2 way player. He was told he would get a shot. The pitching coach stepped in and said he needed to spend his time with the pitchers and his hitting work would be limited. His at bats would be limited. And he would maybe get a chance to Dh. It never happened as he became the Friday night starter.

Some programs have many guys that are on the roster who dont pitch who can also hit. Some programs do not. So you have to decide when your choosing a college program how important the opportunity to be a two way player really is. But as a high school player you do not.

Why not just play the game and let these things work themselves out.

zombywoof you just said everything I was trying to say in 13 words. Much shorter than I did and much better.

Well stated zomby & Coach;

Talent, like water, seeks it's own level. All we need do, is just let it sort itself out... It's a nice dilemma to have.

I am with the above, good advice, don't worry about it, if it happens it happens, whatever, just sit back and enjoy.

Coach May brings some great points, do your homework regarding program history of 2 way players and keep in mind that most pitchers were two way players in HS, so being a pitcher and playing another position/hitter is not unique.

FWIW, as a senior in HS son, was a county all star, the only utility guy named.

quote:

Originally posted by birdman14:
I know this has been discussed recently in other posts, but I am looking for opinions of others members who have had their son try and do this. My son is a freshman P/OF at a mid level D1. Can he possible do this, and not have it negatively effect his growth as a baseball player, or would he be better specializing? Coach very much wants him to do both. Has a couple of players listed on the roster as two-way, but has not really had anyone do it over the last couple of years. At this point he more than likely will have to do what the coach wants. He still wants to hit and pitch.

Birdman, I would tell your son to remained focus on his overall talents and give 100% at playing at his best level. Several players in the majors and currently in D1 and even lower levels play multiple positions, pitcher/field position of some sort and that bodes well for them. Nothing wrong with multi-tasking!

My son played D1 as well and started out playing two positions, 1b and pitcher and he ended up DH and closing games his last season to make room for a talented first baseman who's bat needed to be in the lineup. It helped my son focus more on pitching as well which was his best talent.

Good luck again and keep us posted!

I'd like to piggback off of Coach May and TPMs points about two-way player program history...I would add that it could be real important to know what the academic majors are for these former two way players. My son has described two-way players in his program as essentially going to an additional practice every day. So on some days, he could potentially have pitching workouts & drills and then also hitting workouts & drills. Double the number of practices & workouts will take time away from other activities such as studying. Depending on the major, that could be a significant challenge.

I would also like to add something to my previous post. That kid I talked about became a first round pick as a pitcher. I believe if he had gone to another program and only played the field and hit he would have been drafted but not as a first rounder. I believe if he had been a two way player he would have been drafted but I seriously doubt a first rounder. The effort and time it takes at that level to achieve that type of success and to reach your full potential at that level is very demanding. Even for the very talented player.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
I would also like to add something to my previous post. That kid I talked about became a first round pick as a pitcher. I believe if he had gone to another program and only played the field and hit he would have been drafted but not as a first rounder. I believe if he had been a two way player he would have been drafted but I seriously doubt a first rounder. The effort and time it takes at that level to achieve that type of success and to reach your full potential at that level is very demanding. Even for the very talented player.

That was my point about Ownings, he could have potentially been a first rounder if he had just done one or the other, probably pitcher only.
To do one or the other at the next level (in this case college) is very difficult.

Another good point not discussed is that it's not just more time in the cage or in the pen training but specific conditioning for each position and hitting as well. Totally different, which do you do?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Another good point not discussed is that it's not just more time in the cage or in the pen training but specific conditioning for each position and hitting as well. Totally different, which do you do?

Right now all his strength and conditioning work is being done as a pitcher. TPM has stated my initial concern, but as so many of you have pointed out I am not going to worry about it now. He is just a freshman, who has only gone through the fall. I'm sure things will have a way of working out in the spring. I can't really change it anyway, and he is happy. That is the main thing!

Your 100% correct. The main thing is he is happy!

Houston Street.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Houston Street.

Houston Street played two-way a little but I wouldn't consider him a full-time two-way player. Here are his number of AB's by year when he was at Texas.

2002 - 2 AB
2003 - 68 AB with AVG of .176 (everyday starters had over 200 AB's)
2004 - 0 AB

Darren Dreifort would still be hitting 50 a year if the Dodgers would have recognized his true talent Batting instead of going all gaga over his live arm.
Pitchers are a dime a dozen, great batters not so much!

Danny Hultzen, P/1B UVA

cheapseats,
Facts can really get in the way.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Houston Street.

If we are allowed to name drop, Matt Weiters was a pretty good two way guy, Rob Segedin, Hultzen, Stroman, Mark McGwire, the list could go on and on, main thing is focus, have fun, do what you love to do and reach for the stars.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
cheapseats,
Facts can really get in the way.

That's okay, things still worked out pretty well for him as a pitcher only.

And look at those names people are dropping and look at the level they played. If you think your son has Hultzen talent then there is no need to worry about it.

“The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do.” ― Walter Bagehot

Hey Birdman14,

Good luck to your son going into the spring and the regular season. Please keep us updated on his progress as a two way player throughout the year.

My son just committed last month to a very good program, and is going to get an opportunity to be a two-way OF/P too in the 2012 season. I know it's going to be tough, as a very small percentage of kids are doing it. I have to say, I really like the quote by Walter Bagehot above that Juggler posted...Very True!

Son was a 2 way player in high school. It did create some problems in being overused. He was a catcher/pitcher which is a problem in itself. At Auburn he didn't want to pitch but was called on to close a game from time to time as a freshman. Of course he did it. No problems. As a sophomore he was a pure 2 way player catching, hitting and a weekend starter usually batting 3rd or 4th in the lineup. He would stay in the game as the DH when he was pulled from the mound. I think he could have done better if he focused on pitching OR position/hitting. New coach came in when he was a junior and he was given the choice to pitch or hit. He chose hitting.
In pro ball (short season "A" 2005) he was asked to pitch in a marathon game that lasted 22 innings and he declined.
When he decided to retire I asked him if he had any plans to ask the club to pitch at the pro level and he said he didn't want to it.

Being 2-way has it's pros and cons. I don't think I would encourage it. If your son has a strong desire to do both then IMHO I think he should focus on hitting and allow his bat to be his trump card. An established hitter (that can pitch) will be given the opportunity to pitch while an established pitcher (that can hit) seldom get the opportunity to pick up a bat.

Fungo

We are heading into a Junior season now at a D-2. The plan according to the Fall exit interview sounds a bit like Fungo's son. My guy will be at 2nd, hit in the 3 hole and start the 2nd game of the DH on the weekend where he will get to hit for himself. Coach said to just be careful, and that if his arm got sore they would move him to first for a game.

Thats the plan...we will see how the season unfolds!

Last year he was the 3rd starter and played 3rd. So at least this year he will have a shorter throw.

Fungo,
If my son was given the choice between an outfielder with a chance to swing the bat everyday or a Friday Night starter, I think he'd choose the outfield? That's what I'd hope for. The majority of the interest garnered from schools was based on his outfield play, speed, and a decent bat. He wasn't scouted too much on the bump the last year due to arm issues. However, He ended up having a very good summer/fall on the mound, and that's what transformed the interest into an offer. Honestly, I'm still concerned with arm issues. He had growth plate problems as a 13/14 year old 8th grader, and UCL problems as a 16 year old sophomore. He's now a senior, has been feeling good...but I'm still nervous.

FYI ... 2-way guys can be known as Nextel guys.

quote:

bsbl247 posted....If my son was given the choice between an outfielder with a chance to swing the bat everyday or a Friday Night starter, I think he'd choose the outfield? That's what I'd hope for.

I'm going to come at this from another angle....This statement above got me thinking (oh no, not that!). A Friday night starter is typically the ace of the staff. Would a Head Coach want his ace / two-way player preferring to be a position player in the new College Baseball 2.0 with less bat pop, more speed and great emphasis on pitching & defense? Thoughts?

quote:

Originally posted by fenwaysouth:

quote:

bsbl247 posted....If my son was given the choice between an outfielder with a chance to swing the bat everyday or a Friday Night starter, I think he'd choose the outfield? That's what I'd hope for.

I'm going to come at this from another angle....This statement above got me thinking (oh no, not that!). A Friday night starter is typically the ace of the staff. Would a Head Coach want his ace / two-way player preferring to be a position player in the new College Baseball 2.0 with less bat pop, more speed and great emphasis on pitching & defense? Thoughts?

A true two way player, IMO is one who pitches as a starter one game a week and then plays a position every day for his bat (or usually as the everyday DH). There was a lefty at UVA, can't remember his name, he played first when he didn't start and batted for himself. This is very rare.

If I am a coach, concerned for my job, and my starters aren't hitting with the new bats, you better beleive I am gonna use everyone I can to get in the lineup. Probably still won't see this at the arger programs.

I see this (being called a two way player) more as a player who is able to play multiple positions, when called upon at certain times, which because of scholarship and roster restraints is becoming more and more common (especiallly in smaller programs).

An example of what I am talking about, Matt Weiters, who would on occasion take off his catchers gear to close a game if needed. He threw the ball very hard, but he was not what I considered a pitcher. Clearly he was a catcher, who threw the ball on occassion. He had a powerful 90+ FB and often times this froze the batter, but he wasn't all that successful at all times.

Clemson had Ryan Harvey (son of Bryan) who was the everyday DH and a weekend starter. He was what I considered a two way player. BTW, he got drafted for his bat but after struggling for years they converted him to pitcher, only I do beleive they did that as his dad was with the organization for many years. This is not normally what organizations do, they draft you for where they feel you are best suited, and rarely do most get a second chance if one position doesn't work.

Birdman, I understand your concern, it's very hard being a jack of all trades and master of none, but I wouldn't worry too much about it, as a freshman player things change and rarely do they turn out as intended when one is recruited.

Just sit back and enjoy! It worked last year, it'll work again this year!

TPM I think your talking about the Doolittle kid and he was a true 2 way player. He was in the starting rotation and played first when he was not on the hill. When he pitched he hit for himself. He is a tremendous talent. These things always work themselves out.