UGA over-recruited?

I believe it may happen to at least 8 or 9 more by the end of the fall. Maybe with the rule change they have to make their cuts before the fall now. Most of the players I know were aware they could be cut, but they thought it was after the fall. Some of the players who were cut last year took it very hard.

Although this is a bummer for the kids. I think it was better of the coach to tell them now then after fall and then they are stuck. If they signed a NLI they can probably get a complete release and have no penalty. Once they step foot on that campus then they are stuck. So although a bummer I would rather my son find out now then after fall.

I was under the impression that an NLI was a legal contract - and that the school had to make a space for a year.

I suppose that going to the school and forcing yourself onto the roster is a good way to be one and done but still...

These kids were probably all good enough to have other options - seems a shame that the kid is the one paying a price and the UGA coach is off the hook.

This won't be the last one... and with the new rules, the kids are the ones who pay the price. By telling them now, the kids can at least transfer to a JC - but their chances of going to most 4 year schools are zero.

I think the program has to make good on the scholarship but not the roster spot. Sounds like the coach is telling the kid he's not going to make the cut down to 35. That makes his choices either the JuCo route or go to school but sit for a year (at least).

Or, he might try transferring now -- if he's going to sit next spring anyway -- and seeing if he can find a school that'll take him for next year.

Is there any NCAA exception that would allow the kid to transfer AND play somewhere else this year?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
It has just been told to a 2008 graduate who was recruited by UGA and signed early last November that he must attend a JUCO the next 2 years to develop.

The HC said that they had expected more players to sign Pro and didn't, therefore, over-recruited "just in case". What a croc!

I guess it's good news for JUCO's but what about these kids who looked forward all summer to playing and/or attending UGA as a student-athlete?[/QUOTE

Quote by YoungGunDad
"I will say that I still don't agree even with college kids moving all over the place if they don't like their ___________ (fill in the blank(s). Seems to me that they should learn how to investigate things more in-depth before making a decision. A lot of headaches can be eliminated if this were taught better by parents and/or mentors. Yes, things change unexpectantly. Learn to suck it up and forge on..grow up.I was raised in an era when "The going gets tough, the tough get going." Not "throw in the towel because I haven't the fortitude" to stick it out".


I guess better teaching by their parents/mentors and more in-depth investigating of UGA and their recruiting practices might of prevented this.The only two options I see for these unfortunate young men are to "quit" and move on or "learn to suck it up and forge on..grow up".

I think the point is that UGA should not be over-recruiting in the first place. They have been farming kids out to JUCOs for years.

On the other hand, they will only stop when the players stop signing with them, for some it is just too big of a temptation. They have already taken away some scholarships from kids from the '08 team, and will take away some more from both the current team and the incoming freshman. There were several kids notified today.

Unless UGA has already started, he can go to another D1 school right now and play this next season, once he is in school, he will have to sit out a year unless he goes to a JC.

That is too bad that the player is caught up in what must be a very stressful situation. As noted by others, it could have been worst and he could have brought him in and not be on the roster and waste two years, if he did not want to go the JC or non-D1 route.

I can also see this happening to many other players around the country, all you need is some player who the school forecast will be drafted and sign, not sign or get drafted and you may have a over recruiting problem even if the coach has good intentions.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
I think the program has to make good on the scholarship but not the roster spot. Sounds like the coach is telling the kid he's not going to make the cut down to 35.

A counter must be included in the 35 man varsity squad. See this link for the rule.

Of course that doesn't mean he will travel or ever play.

Note that anyone who signs a NLI is a counter--unless he leaves or doesn't enter school. So the coach obviously would prefer that an unwanted player not enroll.

From the unfortunate player's point of view, the sooner he leaves, the sooner he can begin to play baseball again. If he obstinately stays at the school where he signed his NLI, he gets the 25% scholarship, but effectively limits himself to 3 years of D1 eligibility. (Freshman year, not allowed to play; sophomore year, fufilling residency requirement.)

It would be probably difficult to arrange, but I suppose that the player could enroll at a different D1 school this fall, and play this year.

If the player is given a complete release from his NLI there is no penalty and he can go to another NLI institution and play. Are you saying that even though he is released the school itself is still held liable for that scholarship as a counter? If its a complete release it seems it would release both parties.

Given the desire to play baseball and the potential financial needs of the player, I would think that it is going to be hard to find a 4 year school that needs another player this close to the first day of school.

I did find one resource that might help - please pass it on if you know of anyone in this situation.

This link is a directory of schools that are not full:

http://www.nacacnet.org/MemberPortal/spaceavailabilityresults.htm

No way of knowing who has baseball space (and money) left from this list but hopefully will help a little.

08

Could he go to a JC for a semester and then go to a D1 school in the fall? Hopefully take enough and transferable units.

That would give him more time to search.

He must already be a NCAA qualifier...

Balk, you have just proved the old saying is true: It's better for one to keep his mouth closed and appear stupid instead of opening it and removing all doubt.

You quoted something completely out of context that I stated several months ago (that you apparently still can't get over) about players leaving programs for various reasons on their OWN accord. Not because they were released by a D1 or any level coach this early in the season and had no idea it was coming.

The rest of the intelligent posters on here are staying on point about how and/or why this could happen. How about joining the rest of us?

Fort Valley, do you know how many kids from this program got the news today? Do you also know if all/most will be playing at the JUCO level now or recommended this route?

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4686003481/m/1941006092

This is a case where that ridiculous transfer rule will rear it's ugly head. Sad to say but this is probably going to happen more than some believe.

This is a serious problem that needs to be dealt with. This is not the first time that Perno has done this and it don't seem like he's going to change. I know this is probably happening at other schools but it's ridiculous. These kids were just at orientation 2 weeks ago, and now they're having to find a place to go and play. It's just stupid.

Does anyone know when a student has "enrolled" at a school? Is it when they register for classes or when they actually show up for class? If they went to orientation, odds are they have signed up for classes...

If you go to UGA's athletic site it lists a television show that Coach Perno is going to be a guest on, on Wednesday night. I guess people could send e-mails to the show requesting that they bring up this very topic to Perno and see what he has to say about it.

I think people should be cautious when lambasting UGA. If he legitimately thought he would lose many of those guys to the draft, then he did nothing wrong with the numbers he recruited. This is what you get at a top TWO program. Every guy and his brother wants to play there and see their faces on ESPN. Programs like these never just recruit one guy for a position. They recruit several and let competition determine who plays. It is athletic Darwinism and that is how it works from the D3 level on up through the D1 level. It is so cool to tell all your friends about signing somewhere in early November. That is truly the easy part. I invite people to follow the announcements of early signings here on the hsbbweb and verify for themselves how many of those kids actually get to play for the first year or two. You might be surprised. Your kid might be the best player in the state he is from and still not good enough to beat out a 22 year old who has been on a college strength program for four years. There is no shame in that. It is just how it goes many times before you can reap the rewards at a top program. Sometimes it takes a couple of years. Sometimes you just have to wait your turn and trust what the coach is telling you.

I agree with Cleveland Dad. UGA has to be aggressive with their recruiting. Players get caught up in the glitz and glitter of a top program and gamble with their baseball future. Thats-a-balk also makes a good point when he says:

quote:

investigate things more in-depth before making a decision. A lot of headaches can be eliminated if this were taught better by parents and/or mentors.

quote:

Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
It has just been told to a 2008 graduate who was recruited by UGA and signed early last November that he must attend a JUCO the next 2 years to develop.

The HC said that they had expected more players to sign Pro and didn't, therefore, over-recruited "just in case". What a croc!

I guess it's good news for JUCO's but what about these kids who looked forward all summer to playing and/or attending UGA as a student-athlete?

-------------------
Ouch, that practice is more frequent for the Top Tier collegiate programs.

It is also less known by many.

Some have labelled it 'Airline Reservation System Collegiate Baseball Recruiting'

Of course the NCAA has not gone far enough.
But does the Athletic Director know? Yep

How about the University President? Maybe not.

Letters of potential lawsuits for breach may help, a little, or other available paths within the laws.
(Not much there either).

Bottom line, it's more ethical.

I dislike it.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
I think people should be cautious when lambasting UGA. If he legitimately thought he would lose many of those guys to the draft, then he did nothing wrong with the numbers he recruited. This is what you get at a top TWO program. Every guy and his brother wants to play there and see their faces on ESPN. Programs like these never just recruit one guy for a position. They recruit several and let competition determine who plays. It is athletic Darwinism and that is how it works from the D3 level on up through the D1 level. It is so cool to tell all your friends about signing somewhere in early November. That is truly the easy part. I invite people to follow the announcements of early signings here on the hsbbweb and verify for themselves how many of those kids actually get to play for the first year or two. You might be surprised. Your kid might be the best player in the state he is from and still not good enough to beat out a 22 year old who has been on a college strength program for four years. There is no shame in that. It is just how it goes many times before you can reap the rewards at a top program. Sometimes it takes a couple of years. Sometimes you just have to wait your turn and trust what the coach is telling you.

ClevelandDad, I agree about a player having to wait their time, but this is a different situation. These kids were offered a scholarship to come play at UGA, now they are being told we have no room for you and if you want to play you will have to go somewhere else. Keep in mind most of them were just told this past week. Most have already done orientation. So tell me how this can be called ethical. It should be illegal.

quote:

These kids were offered a scholarship to come play at UGA, now they are being told we have no room for you and if you want to play you will have to go somewhere else.

If they (UGA and the student athlete) signed an NLI then UGA has to honor the scholarship for one year whether they have room for them or not. As far as playing time goes ----- more than likely these players would have not played for UGA for a year or two at best. I doubt if the were "heavily" recruited or recruited at all and offered much in the way of a scholarship. It all goes back to the little fish in the big pond comparison. If a player puts himself in that position then he becomes very vulnerable. This is a great example of "fit" being of upmost importance when selecting a college baseball program.
Fungo

Under the new rules, the minimum NLI offer is 25%. So there was a real financial commitment made from the program to the players.

I agree that playing time for any freshman is a real question mark - but that is really not the point here.

This program had these students reject all of their other college admissions, attend orientation, register for classes, sign up for housing, and now, with classes starting August 15th, they have said don't bother coming.

This is not about playing time at a top program - this about a program behaving in an unethical and potentially illegal manner.

I can see a coach missing the 35 player limit by a player or two - but according to this thread it is multiple players - and according to the other thread potentially 10 or more players. That is not missing the mark - that is not caring about the limit or the players at all.

08

I've been hearing this a lot lately: bringing in 50+ players in the fall and pushing the extras off to the "farm club."

I know for a fact of one to-be-freshman kid who signed at a tiop tier program was asked to give up his scholly because he was injured and might not be able to play at full strength come spring. The coach basically intimidated him by saying "if you keep the scholly, burn a roster spot for us and can't play, we're not going to renew it."

Hey our son just returned from an orientation at his school of choice. So he is committed, and this is currently going on daily throughout country.

Now this is what many of us were talking about teaching our young people about not honoring your commitment and then backing out. well here we go...

Lets look at the issue from a young person's perspective. Announced in front of school that they were going to sign with University xyz and bought all kinds of shorts, shirts, logo's for cars etc visited and spent money at college campuses. Told other universities thanks but no thanks I'm going to be an XYZ. Now bang woops sorry we made a mistake and can't honor the scholly could you go to juco for a year or two and maybe (maybe trust factor here) we can get you back in and on a roster then in a year or two. Doesn't anyone else here smell horse **** or is it just me living in a bubble?

Now the question is does the University have to honor the scholy as signed by both parties...good question and what are the implications? Well I would force their hand (the University) now doesn't the schooly count against the 11.7 alocated by NCAA and how does does this effect the team in question that apparently has no more money? It appears to me that these Universities maybe in violation of NCAA recruiting. If the young person says hey I'm attending xyz and your allocating the monies you promosed. Wow bad situation between coach, university, player and parents. Now one step further University agrees to obligation and charges off scholly some where and student walks out soph year and coach blows him away for not being a good Sport and going to juco, Now this young person has to sit out the entire season whether he gets a release or just transfers.

I await all the experts to tell me how any of this benefits the student athlete who was lied to, mislead, embarrassed, let down and frankly screwed over. Please anyone? I got blasted several times when I questioned these policies as being uninformed, well now we are and here we are. I feel sorry for those who jumped at the name brand school without looking at fit and asking the hard questions. But in the end the adults at these Universities had a responsibility to play fairly and honestly before signing any players over their roster limits. 8 Seniors Graduating = 8 Recruits signed. A junior is drafted = possible additional signee = a waiting list. It really is all about accountability and doing it the right way. It was refreshing to see the World Series this year and Fresno State with a roster of 25 and getting it done as a team from head coach to the #25 player on the team.

Glad son decided to go where fit and academics were more inportant then over recruiting and false promises.

Son had a Preferred walkon invitation at a D1 program that recruited the right way but had 16 preferred Walkon invitation's out which allowed him to decide what was more inportant and (VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION) whether he would want to be at that university if he wasn't play a sport. He decided the answer was no and chose to go where he felt was a better fit (socially, academically and athletically) for him.

Parents do your homework and remember your son and/or daughter will be a Student Athlete not the other way around.

quote:

Originally posted by dawgduck:
ClevelandDad, I agree about a player having to wait their time, but this is a different situation. These kids were offered a scholarship to come play at UGA, .

dawg, unfortunately, I can feel for your position and those players, but I think your post reflects what most think and what is not reality.
None of those players were offered an NLI to "play" at UGA. They were offered an NLI to "attend" UGA, and receive an athletic scholarship. Implied with that was the opportunity to "compete" for a roster spot and a "chance" to earn playing time.
Everytime I read a post that some high school senior committed to "play" at a college, I cringe because I know that isn't the commitment they received from the coaching staff, in most every situation.
I am by no means condoning what happened, is happening and the timing of things with the coaches at UGA.
For them to be at this point and say they didn't "know" or some other excuse means they did not do their job well both in terms of understanding and applying the new rules and in knowing and understanding their roster issues.
But, with that said, college baseball, with ESPN coverage in Omaha, financial aspects in the program, and big salaries to coaches has evolved into a business of winning. If a coach does not win, he gets fired. He isn't going to risk his 6 figure salary on 17-18 year olds and their feelings, unless that 17-18 year old clearly is one who will help win.

As CD and Fungo have suggested, it sure is fun for the player and his family in November when they sign that NLI and receive all the accolades that surround that process. But, it often times is quite meaningless when it comes to "playing."
An NLI and an athletic scholarship says nothing about playing. It doesn't suggest anything about having a roster spot. It says if you attend UGA, you receive that scholarship for one year.
Whether you make the roster and play isn't included in the NLI.
Whether you earn a roster spot and/or play is based almost strictly on talent and your ability to be better and to produce in a group of 35 or so of the best players in college baseball.
Again, I detest what I am reading about the UGA situation.
But parents and players need to be much better informed and educated about the issues and the risks. Over recruiting is nothing new. The HSBBW has had threads every year since I have been reading and posting. UGA isn't new to the issue either on this board.
As Fungo posted, parents and players need to understand, before they glow in the November light of that NLI, what life is like in big time college programs.
It isn't what you see on ESPN from Omaha.

.
Three issues here...

Moral Issue: Yes, It's simply wrong to overecruit from a moral standpoint.

Legal: Yes, kid is entitled to his baseball $ regardless.

Practical: Would you want to enforce the NLI and have your kid in a program that had made it abundently clear that they didn't want him? We talk a great deal about "fit", I would submit that this is not a good fit and it is better to find a new home by way of JC.

The bigger issues......here we go again. Too much power in the hands of the coaches and programs and NCAA not enough in the hands of the kids. After all the legislation, pot banging, and lip service about helping the student athlete many players still get left hanging. And there would appear to be nothing to stop this from continuing to happen. Some of the bigger more atractive programs have done this for decades, and can/will continue to do this becasue they are like lights to moths (kids parenst fault agreed) and the NCAA is not comitted to helping the cause of the student athlete only the PR of "Appearing" to help the student athlete.

With the bigger rosters players at least got into the programs that they were promised and with the transfer rules they could see their mistake and get out...

...now they go in blind to the numbers game, many cannot get into the programs that thay were promised, and once they get in they cannot get out....

Brilliant.

44
.

O8 Dad is right. Our son went through this at a top ten ranked school last year. They over recruited, a new coaching staff came in with no commitment and little knowledge of the new recruits, and then asked kids to redshirt or cut them at the end of Fall Ball. A kid goes away from home for the first time, gets the gear, goes to orientation, moves into a dorm, makes friends, bonds with the team, goes to classes and study hall, works out and plays every day, goes through team initiation, and then has to leave if he wants to play through no fault of his own. In our case, our son signed a NLI after turning down four other schools. The kicker was that if he transferred to a school within the conference he would have to sit out two years. In retrospect, it was a huge mistake to go down there after the coaching staff left.

Fortunately we found a great JC program and everything will work out just fine. We are not bitter, because in the end it is just "life." But don't kid yourself, it's a cold business. In the end, it's better to know before you enroll, but even better to not have signed at all with a school like that. Don't just hope for the best, do your homework. Hope our experience helps someone else.

I haven't been able to find an answer on the NCAA website as to when the student has "enrolled full time" (e.g. registering for classes or actually showing up for the first session of the class).

IF the act of registering means that the student has enrolled full-time, then by going to a JC, they are now a 4-2-4 player - with all of those restrictions - rather than a 2-4 student which is much easier... Nice timing...

BTW - please don't take my outrage as suggesting that the players should still attend UGA and force the coaches hands... Assuming that they still want to play college ball, I'd transfer to a JC and deal with the NCAA and their rules...

I know over-recruiting occurs and has for years - thanks to this site I am not naive on that topic.

What has me particularly annoyed is the timing and the number of players in this situation, coupled with the new rules on transferring. These players, are just going to lose more than ever before... and I am not sure that those who are to blame are going to pay any of the price...

08

[ But parents and players need to be much better informed and educated about the issues and the risks. Over recruiting is nothing new. The HSBBW has had threads every year since I have been reading and posting. UGA isn't new to the issue either on this board.

infielddad- Trust me, I do understand what you are saying. My son is not one of these kids but he knows 90% of them. I hate it for them and their parents.

I think this rule of the roster number will really be magnified this year. I hope parents are really keeping up with this. Parents are really going to have to do their homework to make sure that this don't happen to their child. Parents really need to make sure that their PRIDE is not involved in their son's college decision.

quote:

and I am not sure that those who are to blame are going to pay any of the price...

08Dad - I think you make fine points. I would argue that UGA is paying a price by having it discussed here like this on the hsbbweb. IMHO, that type of attention will catch up to them someday. I would like to hear someone from UGA discuss the other side of this.

quote:

Parents really need to make sure that their PRIDE is not involved in their son's college decision.

dawg, that is a terrific thought that you have very thoughtfully presented. I cannot agree with you more because I know I did some of that along the way.

Someone asked me to identify who is being asked to attend a JUCO this year. After what happened to one of their recruits who was cut last fall I don't think it is a good idea, however when I get the final numbers I will share them. As close as I can tell they were at about 44 players (returnees plus incoming freshman who have not signed professional contracts)for fall 2008. That does not count redshirts and players parked at JUCOs. After cutting at least one returning player they are still 16 over the number for scholarships, however some returning players are not getting much so may agree to "walk on".

quote:

Originally posted by dawgduck:
[ But parents and players need to be much better informed and educated about the issues and the risks. Over recruiting is nothing new. The HSBBW has had threads every year since I have been reading and posting. UGA isn't new to the issue either on this board.

infielddad- Trust me, I do understand what you are saying. My son is not one of these kids but he knows 90% of them. I hate it for them and their parents.

I think this rule of the roster number will really be magnified this year. I hope parents are really keeping up with this. Parents are really going to have to do their homework to make sure that this don't happen to their child. Parents really need to make sure that their PRIDE is not involved in their son's college decision.

This is the bad year when schools with 10-20 redshirts plus recruits have to make real cuts. Jucos will benefit and down the line. When schools get to the roster limit, there will be more equalibrium. The game won't look any different, but there will be more room in the locker room, sadly.

Not knowing which players are involved and if the situation is actually happening at UGA (we have no reason to think it is not, but just giving the school the benefit of a doubt), it is obvious a terrible situation for the players. I do not see where the players are at fault, they may have chose to pursue the school or the school chose to pursue them, but the bottom line is the school chose to offer the players a NLI with athletic money. It does not sound like a recruited walk on situation where nothing is signed. With that, most would assume a roster position given the new transfer rules which everyone knew was coming down.

The players are certainly penalized for the school over recruiting whether it is due to players not getting drafted, not signing if drafted, the school finding other players to recruit, just not being good enough to win his roster spot, etc.

I think the schools (mainly coaching staff) needs to be penalized for the practice of over recruiting and casting off players who are new recruits or have been in their program and they take away their monies and roster positions to make room other players and the player can not transfer to another D1 school.

I don't think over-recruiting will ever go away...especially with the MLB draft throwing a monkey wrench into the whole thing. Who will sign? Who will not?

I believe it will become much more common for seniors to lose their scholarship and for players in all classes to get cut...at least until a more steady-state is reached on understanding how to manage under the new rules.

Ron Polk kind of summed all this up for us a year ago.

The NCAA really needs to re-examine all of this. They applied practices used by other sports where the draft is less of an influence (especially on HS-aged kids) and didn't carefully consider the special case that baseball is. Probably would sound crazy to them, but an ex-player parent with a good head on his/her shoulders to advise amendments might be a good idea.

I nominate Fungo.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
I don't think over-recruiting will ever go away...especially with the MLB draft throwing a monkey wrench into the whole thing. Who will sign? Who will not?

I believe it will become much more common for seniors to lose their scholarship and for players in all classes to get cut...at least until a more steady-state is reached on understanding how to manage under the new rules.

Ron Polk kind of summed all this up for us a year ago.

The NCAA really needs to re-examine all of this. They applied practices used by other sports where the draft is less of an influence (especially on HS-aged kids) and didn't carefully consider the special case that baseball is. Probably would sound crazy to them, but an ex-player parent with a good head on his/her shoulders to advise amendments might be a good idea.

I nominate Fungo.

Knowing that athletic monies are only guaranteed for one year, I think taking away scholarship monies from seniors is also a terrible thing for schools to do to fix over recruiting faults of the coaches, not caring what the families financial situations are, for a player who may have been in the program for three years, that is no way of showing appreciation for the dedication and hard work they have put into the program.

I know a few very good players who had their monies taken away from them their senior year due to the coaches having too many scholarship recruits show up on their door step, what are they to say?

I know college baseball is all about winning, but the seniors have no "D1" possibility without sitting out and can not transfer without possibly costing two years tuition...may be good for NAIA or D2's.

I have never heard of a senior having money taken away. Usually they just cut them. If they give any BB money they have to maintain a 25% pakage minimumm. Cutting a BB scholly makes no sense. You will just have an unhappy player so why wouldn't the coach just cut him? An unhappy player who had money taken away would be like a cancer on the team. Others would worry that it will happen to them. With the new rules that even makes less sense. The guy who gets BB money is deemed to be on the roster and even if the coach cut him and he stayed he would still get the money if he signed a NLI.