UNC Signees Finalize Decisions
As Friday's MLB Draft signing deadline passed, six of North Carolina's 10 signees have signed contracts and will therefore not enroll at UNC.
What do you expect a college coach to do when this kind of risk exists?
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Could you see a scenerio where any players comning into high end programs would be told that as soon as your draft year comes up you either sign or lose your $?
Would give the program some numbers certainty. And from the standpoint of the high end schools, either you star by your draft year or we have to keep the pipeline going and bring in new talent...
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Could you see a scenerio where any players comning into high end programs would be told that as soon as your draft year comes up you either sign or lose your $?
Would give the program some numbers certainty. And from the standpoint of the high end schools, either you star by your draft year or we have to keep the pipeline going and bring in new talent...
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quote:Originally posted by observer44:
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Could you see a scenerio where any players comning into high end programs would be told that as soon as your draft year comes up you either sign or lose your $?
Happens quite often. Not only are they told they lose their $$ but in the past it was if you don't get drafted you need to transfer.
Infidel brings up good points and this is why coaches often over recruit, sometimes even spending money of those new recruits that they feel most likely WILL never set foot on campus.
Sorry about the all caps in my prior message. I was just being lazy -- no offense intended.
No offense taken, Maven. It's just that it can be hard on the "ears"...
Well, the signing deadline is behind us and UGA will welcome 5 of 8 recruits who, though drafted, chose not to sign. Add to this the return of Holder, who also elected to return, and it becomes clear that there is still some juggling to be done with the UGA roster. I can understand the predicament for the coaching staff, my point is that this is not new. When we went thru the college recruiting process, we knew, and anyone who did their homework knew what the deal was with teams like this. It's hard, I know, but you should know what you're signing up for.
Well, the signing deadline is behind us and UGA will welcome 5 of 8 recruits who, though drafted, chose not to sign. Add to this the return of Holder, who also elected to return, and it becomes clear that there is still some juggling to be done with the UGA roster. I can understand the predicament for the coaching staff, my point is that this is not new. When we went thru the college recruiting process, we knew, and anyone who did their homework knew what the deal was with teams like this. It's hard, I know, but you should know what you're signing up for.
Va Sportsmom,
We knew exactly what we were signing up for -- and got exactly what we wanted. In the end, we narrowed the choices from 11 to 1 for many reasons. Really, it's not that hard if the player has a set of clearly defined goals (write them down) at the start of the process. Each week, re-rank the schools based on new info.
We did our homework, set criteria (playing time, roster turnover, recruiting history, academic performance, coaches philosophy, etc), did research before engaging the college and asked the hard questions of coaches right up front. (If they take offense or bully, drop them, move on.) Take the emotion out of the decision process (as much as possible) -- make it fact-based. Type at the top of the criteria list "This is Your Decision".
BTW, the UGA coaches answers were vague, unacceptable, defensive -- so we moved on, pronto. Signed early with another outstanding D-1 program with great athletics, academics, honest coaches with candid answers and philosophy consistent with our criteria. There are many good programs with these characteristics; but it is up to the players to find them through their own interaction.
Just because the over-recruiting problem is not new does not make it acceptable; I have no sympathy for coaches with unethical practices (eg, signing 23 frosh NLIs knowing that even if the expected draftees go pro, that 20 more players than NCAA allows will show up); when it is the players who suffer the most severe consequences (transfer rule, no scholly, out of the recruiting market due to NLI, etc).
I agree wholeheartedly that parents must help their sons understand the process. The recruiting process is one of the first player initiations into adulthood -- learning that some adults in positions of authority will use their positions to their own advantage without regard to consequences of others -- especially those who are not as knowledgeable (to your point) or have an unfounded deference to persons in authority. Players should be taught to "man-up", stand tall, look the coaches in the eye and ask tough questions of coaches, no fear, insist on answers (even ones they don't want to hear) and then make the decisions that are in their own best interests.
And then don't look back. In life, the saddest phrase that can be said is "If only ...".
No sympathy is warranted for coaches who practice overrecruitment. We must get the NCAA to do something about this. More scholly slots/money/honesty.
Now I fully expect to hear from posters who will argue these things are way too much to ask.
We knew exactly what we were signing up for -- and got exactly what we wanted. In the end, we narrowed the choices from 11 to 1 for many reasons. Really, it's not that hard if the player has a set of clearly defined goals (write them down) at the start of the process. Each week, re-rank the schools based on new info.
We did our homework, set criteria (playing time, roster turnover, recruiting history, academic performance, coaches philosophy, etc), did research before engaging the college and asked the hard questions of coaches right up front. (If they take offense or bully, drop them, move on.) Take the emotion out of the decision process (as much as possible) -- make it fact-based. Type at the top of the criteria list "This is Your Decision".
BTW, the UGA coaches answers were vague, unacceptable, defensive -- so we moved on, pronto. Signed early with another outstanding D-1 program with great athletics, academics, honest coaches with candid answers and philosophy consistent with our criteria. There are many good programs with these characteristics; but it is up to the players to find them through their own interaction.
Just because the over-recruiting problem is not new does not make it acceptable; I have no sympathy for coaches with unethical practices (eg, signing 23 frosh NLIs knowing that even if the expected draftees go pro, that 20 more players than NCAA allows will show up); when it is the players who suffer the most severe consequences (transfer rule, no scholly, out of the recruiting market due to NLI, etc).
I agree wholeheartedly that parents must help their sons understand the process. The recruiting process is one of the first player initiations into adulthood -- learning that some adults in positions of authority will use their positions to their own advantage without regard to consequences of others -- especially those who are not as knowledgeable (to your point) or have an unfounded deference to persons in authority. Players should be taught to "man-up", stand tall, look the coaches in the eye and ask tough questions of coaches, no fear, insist on answers (even ones they don't want to hear) and then make the decisions that are in their own best interests.
And then don't look back. In life, the saddest phrase that can be said is "If only ...".
No sympathy is warranted for coaches who practice overrecruitment. We must get the NCAA to do something about this. More scholly slots/money/honesty.
Now I fully expect to hear from posters who will argue these things are way too much to ask.
I am pne of them who doesn't understand why you call it unethical when there is no rule or even guide line that states that a coach shall not allow walk ons and recruit enough players to cover those who may not show up. NLI guys are not cut and only NLIs are signed if BB money is given. This is one of the reasons I say money talks. I wouldn't commit my son without a large scholarship and today it is more important than ever. At least with the scholarship money you have it for 1 year and probably for 4 if you workout in the eyes of the coach. I never talked to many coaches who didn't give me the answers I wanted to hear. You can ask all the questions you like but most coaches are selling you on their program.
At UGA, NLI guys were cut before they ever hit campus. I am not sure that any of the parents of these players would say that is ethical. It puts them in a tough spot academically and athletically. And it is not just because a few guys who were drafted did not sign, they are WAY over the limit. Baseball Maven is right on target with this one, and many college coaches would agree. Some colleges get caught short a few players on their roster, but those are the chances you take by signing high profile players likely to be drafted in the first few rounds.
As someone who knows players and parents of current and former players at UGA the issue has and will continue to exist at UGA as long as Perno is there. This is a ongoing problem, in the past the kids would make it on to campus and be told prior to Spring semester to find another school to play at, usually a JUCO.
The problem with Perno is that he lacks any sense of morality or integrity. He is deceptive with his answers, he will lie to your face, and deny it at the sametime. He has some major character flaws. Some of the assistant coaching changes over the past 3 years were due to coaches not playing his game. Anyone that would like to PM me is welcome to. I am a Dawgfan and Love UGA and the players and really enjoyed this past season but the way he throws players out like trash is crazy.
He has and does reduce scholarships, lets players know that they are not in his future plans and communicates with the players minimally. If you have the opportuinty to talk to a parent of a UGA player (if they are willing to discuss) you will find that players even that are starters for the most part do not respect him and do not feel a connection with the Coach. I would say 70% would disapprove of Perno.
I am not saying this as sour grapes but so many people have touched on this, where there is smoke there is fire. There have been Highly recruited players and 6 figure drafted players that have gone to campus only to be thrown out with the trash.
He has already publicily talked about some starters from last years team maybe not playing this year. No problem with open competition, but the first time a player hears that he is not meeting the teams needs should be in a meeting with the coach and not read about it on Rivals or hear it in a radio show.
So why do kids continue to go there
1- Its Georgia
2- SEC
3- Its Georgia, campus is beautiful and for many of the kids they've dreamed of playing there.
The problem with Perno is that he lacks any sense of morality or integrity. He is deceptive with his answers, he will lie to your face, and deny it at the sametime. He has some major character flaws. Some of the assistant coaching changes over the past 3 years were due to coaches not playing his game. Anyone that would like to PM me is welcome to. I am a Dawgfan and Love UGA and the players and really enjoyed this past season but the way he throws players out like trash is crazy.
He has and does reduce scholarships, lets players know that they are not in his future plans and communicates with the players minimally. If you have the opportuinty to talk to a parent of a UGA player (if they are willing to discuss) you will find that players even that are starters for the most part do not respect him and do not feel a connection with the Coach. I would say 70% would disapprove of Perno.
I am not saying this as sour grapes but so many people have touched on this, where there is smoke there is fire. There have been Highly recruited players and 6 figure drafted players that have gone to campus only to be thrown out with the trash.
He has already publicily talked about some starters from last years team maybe not playing this year. No problem with open competition, but the first time a player hears that he is not meeting the teams needs should be in a meeting with the coach and not read about it on Rivals or hear it in a radio show.
So why do kids continue to go there
1- Its Georgia
2- SEC
3- Its Georgia, campus is beautiful and for many of the kids they've dreamed of playing there.
quote:Originally posted by Dawgfan:
As someone who knows players and parents of current and former players at UGA the issue has and will continue to exist at UGA as long as Perno is there. This is a ongoing problem, in the past the kids would make it on to campus and be told prior to Spring semester to find another school to play at, usually a JUCO.
The problem with Perno is that he lacks any sense of morality or integrity. He is deceptive with his answers, he will lie to your face, and deny it at the sametime. He has some major character flaws. Some of the assistant coaching changes over the past 3 years were due to coaches not playing his game. Anyone that would like to PM me is welcome to. I am a Dawgfan and Love UGA and the players and really enjoyed this past season but the way he throws players out like trash is crazy.
He has and does reduce scholarships, lets players know that they are not in his future plans and communicates with the players minimally. If you have the opportuinty to talk to a parent of a UGA player (if they are willing to discuss) you will find that players even that are starters for the most part do not respect him and do not feel a connection with the Coach. I would say 70% would disapprove of Perno.
I am not saying this as sour grapes but so many people have touched on this, where there is smoke there is fire. There have been Highly recruited players and 6 figure drafted players that have gone to campus only to be thrown out with the trash.
He has already publicily talked about some starters from last years team maybe not playing this year. No problem with open competition, but the first time a player hears that he is not meeting the teams needs should be in a meeting with the coach and not read about it on Rivals or hear it in a radio show.
So why do kids continue to go there
1- Its Georgia
2- SEC
3- Its Georgia, campus is beautiful and for many of the kids they've dreamed of playing there.
Dawgfan, that was very well put.
I am not disputing what you are saying but doesn't this reflect players and parents not doing their due diligence ?
Reading this thread and not knowing anything about the school, it seems that UGA may be the most egregious example of something that may be going on now, or soon will be, at a number of big time schools due in part to the new roster rules. For a player and parent, one lesson here may be to shy away from the big time schools until things settle down in a few years. A top 40 program is going to have a high number of talented players and recruits, a high degree of leverage over incoming (star struck?) players and very limited spots and scholarships available. It's a unfortunate combination of things that could result in an unusually high number of misled players (which obviously is happening at UGA now.)
quote:Originally posted by Dawgfan:
....This is a ongoing problem, in the past the kids would make it on to campus and be told prior to Spring semester to find another school to play at, usually a JUCO.
....The problem with Perno is that he lacks any sense of morality or integrity. He is deceptive with his answers, he will lie to your face, and deny it at the sametime. He has some major character flaws.
....but the way he throws players out like trash is crazy.
....He has and does reduce scholarships, lets players know that they are not in his future plans and communicates with the players minimally.
....I would say 70% would disapprove of Perno.
....where there is smoke there is fire. There have been Highly recruited players and 6 figure drafted players that have gone to campus only to be thrown out with the trash.
Bobblehead, I think that's just it after reading the above post from Dawgfan. It appears that players and parents ARE doing their due diligence but Perno is changing lanes on them somewhere along the way. I too am a HUGE Georgia fan (college, campus, athletics, tradition, etc.) but I will be the first to admit that things aren't exactly peachy at this program. It's almost to the point where it should be "Buyer Beware" going there.
This has been going on for years at all levels of D1 colleges. It is the norm in varying degrees. There are some that don't over recruit but with walk ons you just don't know. College ball is a tough way yo go and you are always on the bubble depending on performance.
It has been a topic many didn't want to face. We have had threads for at least 3 years here on this site that I know of. Every year is a new crop of players and a new challenge. Most teams lose players every year as new guys take the spot they thought they would have.
It has been a topic many didn't want to face. We have had threads for at least 3 years here on this site that I know of. Every year is a new crop of players and a new challenge. Most teams lose players every year as new guys take the spot they thought they would have.
YGUN if they did their due diligence they would know that Georgia is a tough nut to crack and that the coach is detrermined to win by honing the recruits and weeding them out. His job depends on it.
I also feel for some of the coaches. One I know moved his family to his new location. They had to start over again and now are out on their ear since the coach was forced to resign. New coach and he hires his own people. He has to win or he is gone in a few short years.
I also feel for some of the coaches. One I know moved his family to his new location. They had to start over again and now are out on their ear since the coach was forced to resign. New coach and he hires his own people. He has to win or he is gone in a few short years.
Bubbleheaddoll,
You are right re due diligence by parents but we all know that many parents/players are ill-equipped to do this unless they have gone thru the recruiting process before.
The NCAA needs to intervene, add scholly money and require real commitment from colleges (no NLIs over the number of roster slots available.) BTW, NLI players absolutely can be cut -- there are 20 of them at UGA today that can attest to that. One of them wanted to attend summer school and was told by Perno/Ellers not to do that. When he asked why, he was told to wait until there were tutors available during fall session. Well, you guessed it; he was told last week that too many players returned or didn't go pro so his roster spot/scholly money is unavailable.
He doesn't have the money to go to college or the grades for HOPE scholarship so he is out. Now he is scrambling to figure out what he does next.
I am a big UGA fan but this is abuse to the extreme. Just because there isn't a rule prohibiting this, doesn't make it ethical. Perno is ruining careers and families and it appears he doesn't give a whit; it's all about winning and crushing innocent players in the process.
I personally tell players and parents to avoid UGA baseball, Perno and Ellers like the plague in the hopes they will not be dupes in the UGA baseball machine (which may be as good at going to Omaha as putting NLI signees thru the rack).
You are right re due diligence by parents but we all know that many parents/players are ill-equipped to do this unless they have gone thru the recruiting process before.
The NCAA needs to intervene, add scholly money and require real commitment from colleges (no NLIs over the number of roster slots available.) BTW, NLI players absolutely can be cut -- there are 20 of them at UGA today that can attest to that. One of them wanted to attend summer school and was told by Perno/Ellers not to do that. When he asked why, he was told to wait until there were tutors available during fall session. Well, you guessed it; he was told last week that too many players returned or didn't go pro so his roster spot/scholly money is unavailable.
He doesn't have the money to go to college or the grades for HOPE scholarship so he is out. Now he is scrambling to figure out what he does next.
I am a big UGA fan but this is abuse to the extreme. Just because there isn't a rule prohibiting this, doesn't make it ethical. Perno is ruining careers and families and it appears he doesn't give a whit; it's all about winning and crushing innocent players in the process.
I personally tell players and parents to avoid UGA baseball, Perno and Ellers like the plague in the hopes they will not be dupes in the UGA baseball machine (which may be as good at going to Omaha as putting NLI signees thru the rack).
Atlanta , one ofr my favourite cities. I have relatives there . One cusin works at Coke head office. He is afraid to take a vacation because he is afraid someone wil take his office while he is gone.
Like I say I don't disput that Georgia is what people are saying. I see it at other schools as well. You are right that most don't have the tools to investigate and that is the great thing about this site. Those who find it are being warned. It is brutal and it is common place.
Like I say I don't disput that Georgia is what people are saying. I see it at other schools as well. You are right that most don't have the tools to investigate and that is the great thing about this site. Those who find it are being warned. It is brutal and it is common place.
You can be sure the admin is on top of it, since he has $2.25 millions reasons to continue to do what he does.
I wonder what he would have received if he won the CWS?
UGA News
I wonder what he would have received if he won the CWS?
UGA News
quote:Originally posted by Baseball Maven:
He doesn't have the money to go to college or the grades for HOPE scholarship so he is out. Now he is scrambling to figure out what he does next.
If he couldn't afford college tuition, grades below for Hope money, was Perno giving him a 100% scholley?
Baseball Maven,
You stated that the coaches were vague with your son, did you not realize at the time that they most likely were not interested? Did you do your homework that Perno has a history of over recruiting? Would your son have signed if offered, even knowing they over recruit?
If he is so disliked, why would so many drafted players return? Why do so many players stay 4 years?
Unfortunetly, this happens everywhere, even the honest coaches get caught in situations. What happens when a coach recruits players that don't show up and he's caught short, do we feel sorry for the coaches? Do we accuse the kids who signed with MLB not living up to their NLI, dishonest?
Don't get me wrong, I am not a Perno fan, I know of situations where things didn't work out. Players not needed yet headed off to other programs and made impacts. This is not exclusive to UGA. This happens when coaches have winning programs, everyone wants to come, and some are willing to look beyond the obvious.
I also know of players who are headed to UGA, some of their folks post or read here. Fully aware of the circumstances their players had enough confidance to know the situation, that an NLI does not guarantee you playing time and ready to face the challenge.
So let's keep in mind that while it doesn't work for some, it works for others.
The good in all of this is that people will learn that it's very important to do your homework, speak to people and be knowledgeable that college baseball is a business, which might not always include everyone.
You stated that the coaches were vague with your son, did you not realize at the time that they most likely were not interested? Did you do your homework that Perno has a history of over recruiting? Would your son have signed if offered, even knowing they over recruit?
If he is so disliked, why would so many drafted players return? Why do so many players stay 4 years?
Unfortunetly, this happens everywhere, even the honest coaches get caught in situations. What happens when a coach recruits players that don't show up and he's caught short, do we feel sorry for the coaches? Do we accuse the kids who signed with MLB not living up to their NLI, dishonest?
Don't get me wrong, I am not a Perno fan, I know of situations where things didn't work out. Players not needed yet headed off to other programs and made impacts. This is not exclusive to UGA. This happens when coaches have winning programs, everyone wants to come, and some are willing to look beyond the obvious.
I also know of players who are headed to UGA, some of their folks post or read here. Fully aware of the circumstances their players had enough confidance to know the situation, that an NLI does not guarantee you playing time and ready to face the challenge.
So let's keep in mind that while it doesn't work for some, it works for others.
The good in all of this is that people will learn that it's very important to do your homework, speak to people and be knowledgeable that college baseball is a business, which might not always include everyone.
What bothers me is the degree with which UGA over-recruited / under-estimated the number of players who would be leaving. It is one thing to have a couple of extras - it is another to have 10+ surplus.
I suppose another thing that really bothers me is the imbalance in the negotiation. I am a economist by education so please bear with me
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Economics 101 teaches you that that in ANY negotiation, doing your homework and understanding the situation is critical. It also teaches you that in a perfectly efficient market, information is readily available to both buyers and sellers.
The problem is that in this case, the sellers (UGA) has all of the information and experience - and the buyers (players and their parents) have virtually none - and getting accurate information is difficult if not impossible.
Making the imbalance even worse is the cost of making a mistake. If the school makes a mistake, they can send the player on their way at zero or at worst 1 years scholarship. If the player makes a mistake, thanks to the new rules, he cannot simply switch to another school - he is highly restricted in where he can go.
A good analogy can be made to when you are arguing with the IRS at the time of an audit - they have all the power, they do it every day - you have no power and you (hopefully) don't do this often.
What needs to change in all of this is that the information needs to be more readily available to the players. I know that this site provides a great resource - but even here people are reluctant to discuss what they have learned for fear of retribution either from the college baseball establishment or from the "HWBBW oldtimers". Reading this thread, if I were new to the site, I would be very hesitant to post about another program if I had had a similar experience to the UGA recruits.
Just my two cents,
08
I suppose another thing that really bothers me is the imbalance in the negotiation. I am a economist by education so please bear with me
. Economics 101 teaches you that that in ANY negotiation, doing your homework and understanding the situation is critical. It also teaches you that in a perfectly efficient market, information is readily available to both buyers and sellers.
The problem is that in this case, the sellers (UGA) has all of the information and experience - and the buyers (players and their parents) have virtually none - and getting accurate information is difficult if not impossible.
Making the imbalance even worse is the cost of making a mistake. If the school makes a mistake, they can send the player on their way at zero or at worst 1 years scholarship. If the player makes a mistake, thanks to the new rules, he cannot simply switch to another school - he is highly restricted in where he can go.
A good analogy can be made to when you are arguing with the IRS at the time of an audit - they have all the power, they do it every day - you have no power and you (hopefully) don't do this often.
What needs to change in all of this is that the information needs to be more readily available to the players. I know that this site provides a great resource - but even here people are reluctant to discuss what they have learned for fear of retribution either from the college baseball establishment or from the "HWBBW oldtimers". Reading this thread, if I were new to the site, I would be very hesitant to post about another program if I had had a similar experience to the UGA recruits.
Just my two cents,
08
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by Baseball Maven:
He doesn't have the money to go to college or the grades for HOPE scholarship so he is out. Now he is scrambling to figure out what he does next.
If he couldn't afford college tuition, grades below for Hope money, was Perno giving him a 100% scholley?
Could it be possible that he got a partial and would not be able to afford out of state tuition or the full balance of another four year school?
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Yep. Was a recent thread that extolled all the wonderful virtues of the new rules...
Yea, right.
44
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quote:Originally posted by 08Dad:
Making the imbalance even worse is the cost of making a mistake. If the school makes a mistake, they can send the player on their way at zero or at worst 1 years scholarship. If the player makes a mistake, thanks to the new rules, he cannot simply switch to another school - he is highly restricted in where he can go.
Yep. Was a recent thread that extolled all the wonderful virtues of the new rules...
Yea, right.
44.
08DAD you are basically right. I also have a background in economics and accounting. It has severved me well over the years. I have been audited and can tell you it isn't fair. They have guidlines that the public are nopt aware of and are not written in any legislation. EG if you do repair & maintenance in the 1st year of acquisition of a rental property they capitalize that amount instead of allowing a write off of the full amount. Sp if you spend 25,000 you can only depreciate 4% in Canada instead of the full write off of 25,000. There are many other self imposed gems.
This is much like the colleges who don't tell you the dark side of recruiting and what can happen if you don't fit their plans. The info is there but you have to search high and low for it and most people just want to sign at a school without regard to the reality of what can happen.
When my son said he wanted to go to the US to play D1 ball we were not caught up in it. We didn't live our lives for it and I only found out in his senior year that he wanted to do this. We saved no money for college because it only costs $4500. for tuition for undergrad at a top school. When I started his campiagn to find a school it was an outlet for me and I had a blast doing it. I did my due diligence, talked to college recruiters etc. No one mention over recruiting. When my son arrived at college he was shocked to find 8-19 players more than the roster size they usually carried. He called home and said at 6'3 he was a pip squeek amoung giants. He asked the coach if he was on the team or just trying out. The coach replied I paid way too much to keep you on the bench. That was the 1st time I ever heard about over recruiting. I talk to hundrteds of players and they never mentioned it until I brought the topic up. Most of the guys didn't last at the same school past their Soph year. Lots of injuries to players who were dumped after the i9njury.
My personal feeling was that trying out to get a roster spot made it more exciting and more rewarding. If he was cut he would have come home and gone to a college here. I had no emotional investment in this at all other than the fun BB provided for him and me.
I know how excited some get over signing but it just never was like that for me or my son. He has had 3 wonderful years in a wonderful city, got a great education, made amazing friemds and it cost me about the same as it would have if he went locally. I am actually starting to get excited as it draws to an end.
People who come to this site have some great advice from experienced posters and have the tools to make an informed decision if that is at all possible. There is still a lot of luck involved and it can come down to how your son interacts with the team and the coaches. When you are dating they are always on their best behaviour.
I agree with TPMs post.
This is much like the colleges who don't tell you the dark side of recruiting and what can happen if you don't fit their plans. The info is there but you have to search high and low for it and most people just want to sign at a school without regard to the reality of what can happen.
When my son said he wanted to go to the US to play D1 ball we were not caught up in it. We didn't live our lives for it and I only found out in his senior year that he wanted to do this. We saved no money for college because it only costs $4500. for tuition for undergrad at a top school. When I started his campiagn to find a school it was an outlet for me and I had a blast doing it. I did my due diligence, talked to college recruiters etc. No one mention over recruiting. When my son arrived at college he was shocked to find 8-19 players more than the roster size they usually carried. He called home and said at 6'3 he was a pip squeek amoung giants. He asked the coach if he was on the team or just trying out. The coach replied I paid way too much to keep you on the bench. That was the 1st time I ever heard about over recruiting. I talk to hundrteds of players and they never mentioned it until I brought the topic up. Most of the guys didn't last at the same school past their Soph year. Lots of injuries to players who were dumped after the i9njury.
My personal feeling was that trying out to get a roster spot made it more exciting and more rewarding. If he was cut he would have come home and gone to a college here. I had no emotional investment in this at all other than the fun BB provided for him and me.
I know how excited some get over signing but it just never was like that for me or my son. He has had 3 wonderful years in a wonderful city, got a great education, made amazing friemds and it cost me about the same as it would have if he went locally. I am actually starting to get excited as it draws to an end.
People who come to this site have some great advice from experienced posters and have the tools to make an informed decision if that is at all possible. There is still a lot of luck involved and it can come down to how your son interacts with the team and the coaches. When you are dating they are always on their best behaviour.
I agree with TPMs post.
To TPM,
The player I mentioned who had his scholly withdrawn due to too many players coming was promised 80%, fyi. In the end, it didn't matter; he was sent to go look for "other opportunities" at the 11th hour.
TPM, re: UGA coaches' vague responses may have indicated lack of interest, but UGA pursued him so I think it was more of a case of not wanting to deal with a kid wasn't "starstruck" and demanded "quid pro quo" commitment; they were probably uncomfortable with this; in the end, it didn't matter. Re: homework/Perno overrecruiting, pls read my earlier posts; I said we did our homework, set criteria, took a fact-based approach; eliminated emotion; held integrity at the top of the list. Re: would my son have signed if offered?; No, as I said earlier, he looked at many schools based on his own criteria and UGA didn't make the cut, partly due to history of overrecruiting; UGA got ruled out very early; son signed early with another D-1 program that met his criteria. Re: why drafted players return; to have a better year, get better draft/compensation next year. Re: it happens everywhere; I agree it happens too often, but not everywhere; and there are plenty of winning programs that don't intentionally overrecruit--it is not a requirement. Re: Perno being disliked; I didn't say that; he is worshipped by some and reviled by others, just like most coaches of high profile programs. Re: it doesn't work for some, it works for others; agreed, but unfortunately too many kids sign without the adequate research to make a well-informed decision; ideally any kid should be able to look a coach in the eye and say, "I am looking for a program that meets MY criteria, now tell me how your program fits and if you are going to live up to your obligations". Now the old school guys on this web site would call that "not respecting authority" or not being a "team player". I call that being a mature man looking out for his own best interests; instead of serving the best interests of a multi-million dollar coach. Sounds fair to me and this is how I raised my son.
Unfortunately, some Coaches are very skilled at playing emotionally/financially vulnerable players like a violin and damaging their futures (and other college programs who would love to have those players) -- without fear of NCAA repercussions. My message is that the NCAA needs to intervene before this gets further out of hand. I don't have a dog in the UGA overrecruiting "hunt" but I don't want to see players' (or other good baseball programs') opportunities impaired due to overrecruiting and the lop-sided nature of the NLI process either.
BTW, 08Dad. You are right. Too many of the "Old Timers are quick to jump on any criticism of any program -- or any discussion by "newby" posters. Most of the newbies are preyed upon like bait to sharks with intense criticism. It this web site is to be instructional, objective criticism and debate should be encouraged. This is not a pep rally.
How else will prospective parents and players know what to research in this process and how to make good decisions? As I have said before -- there is a lot of good info and a lot of good posters in this web site; readers should pick and choose what they want to use.
The player I mentioned who had his scholly withdrawn due to too many players coming was promised 80%, fyi. In the end, it didn't matter; he was sent to go look for "other opportunities" at the 11th hour.
TPM, re: UGA coaches' vague responses may have indicated lack of interest, but UGA pursued him so I think it was more of a case of not wanting to deal with a kid wasn't "starstruck" and demanded "quid pro quo" commitment; they were probably uncomfortable with this; in the end, it didn't matter. Re: homework/Perno overrecruiting, pls read my earlier posts; I said we did our homework, set criteria, took a fact-based approach; eliminated emotion; held integrity at the top of the list. Re: would my son have signed if offered?; No, as I said earlier, he looked at many schools based on his own criteria and UGA didn't make the cut, partly due to history of overrecruiting; UGA got ruled out very early; son signed early with another D-1 program that met his criteria. Re: why drafted players return; to have a better year, get better draft/compensation next year. Re: it happens everywhere; I agree it happens too often, but not everywhere; and there are plenty of winning programs that don't intentionally overrecruit--it is not a requirement. Re: Perno being disliked; I didn't say that; he is worshipped by some and reviled by others, just like most coaches of high profile programs. Re: it doesn't work for some, it works for others; agreed, but unfortunately too many kids sign without the adequate research to make a well-informed decision; ideally any kid should be able to look a coach in the eye and say, "I am looking for a program that meets MY criteria, now tell me how your program fits and if you are going to live up to your obligations". Now the old school guys on this web site would call that "not respecting authority" or not being a "team player". I call that being a mature man looking out for his own best interests; instead of serving the best interests of a multi-million dollar coach. Sounds fair to me and this is how I raised my son.
Unfortunately, some Coaches are very skilled at playing emotionally/financially vulnerable players like a violin and damaging their futures (and other college programs who would love to have those players) -- without fear of NCAA repercussions. My message is that the NCAA needs to intervene before this gets further out of hand. I don't have a dog in the UGA overrecruiting "hunt" but I don't want to see players' (or other good baseball programs') opportunities impaired due to overrecruiting and the lop-sided nature of the NLI process either.
BTW, 08Dad. You are right. Too many of the "Old Timers are quick to jump on any criticism of any program -- or any discussion by "newby" posters. Most of the newbies are preyed upon like bait to sharks with intense criticism. It this web site is to be instructional, objective criticism and debate should be encouraged. This is not a pep rally.
How else will prospective parents and players know what to research in this process and how to make good decisions? As I have said before -- there is a lot of good info and a lot of good posters in this web site; readers should pick and choose what they want to use.
BM,
I am not understanding this. If a coach gives a player 80%, that means he was pretty darn good. 80% baseball, academic? If my son was offered 80% baseball money, signed an NLI and told before he sets foot on campus that they were withdrawing his NLI for any reason other than academics, I am headed to the highest person on the totem pole. Did all of these players told not to come sign an NLI?
Your son made a decision that was right for him, and although I am not disagreeing with over recruiting (hate it actually), I know of some people here whose players did their homework, knew the situation yet decided to attend and not told they couldn't be on the team.
You are correct, this site should be instructional with objective criticism on the college recruiting process, but have you done that?
I am not understanding this. If a coach gives a player 80%, that means he was pretty darn good. 80% baseball, academic? If my son was offered 80% baseball money, signed an NLI and told before he sets foot on campus that they were withdrawing his NLI for any reason other than academics, I am headed to the highest person on the totem pole. Did all of these players told not to come sign an NLI?
Your son made a decision that was right for him, and although I am not disagreeing with over recruiting (hate it actually), I know of some people here whose players did their homework, knew the situation yet decided to attend and not told they couldn't be on the team.
You are correct, this site should be instructional with objective criticism on the college recruiting process, but have you done that?
LSU had 39 players on its roster last year. 3 were seniors and 3 underclassmen signed with MLB, leaving 33 current players. 13 freshmen are coming in, none of which signed with the pros, as far as I can tell. That adds up to 46 players. Even if half signed with the MLB, there would still be 40 players on the roster. That's 10 players the head coach is going to have to cut....total bull****.
quote:Originally posted by Louisiana Lightning:
LSU had 39 players on its roster last year. 3 were seniors and 3 underclassmen signed with MLB, leaving 33 current players. 13 freshmen are coming in, none of which signed with the pros, as far as I can tell. That adds up to 46 players. Even if half signed with the MLB, there would still be 40 players on the roster. That's 10 players the head coach is going to have to cut....total bull****.
Won't he have to cut 11 players that won't be able to play this year at the D1 level this year and or possibly next year as well?
Actually if all 46 show up he will have to cut 11. The fall will be very interesting wont it?
I believe that character and a persons word are the most important thing they have. If a coach brings in kids with the understanding they will be a part of the baseball program and then they cut them because they over recruited they have no character and their word means nothing.
They should plan for 35 and if things do not work out they should be prepared to play with less than 35. Or you can plan for 46 and prepare to keep the best 35. But be prepared to build a reputation of being a program that does just that. And do not be surprised in the future when it becomes harder and harder to recruit.
Now if a coach is up front and says "I can not tell you who and who will not be on the team. We will determine that in the fall." I can respect that and then the player can make the decision and live with the results. But to recruit more than you can keep and use this type of tactic as a tryout situation without being up front about it is wrong.
People say do your homework. There is no way to be on the outside and know what is going on on the inside. If a coach offers a kid a scholley and says "We want you to be a part of our program." Is that enough? Should that be enough? IMO if the coach has any character at all and his worth a plug nickle it should be.
What is wrong with being up front and saying "We want you to come and tryout for the team. We can not be sure you will make it. But we sure would like you to come." The answer is obvious. Most if not all will seek another situation. No they wait until it is too late because they know you will not come if you know the deal before you come.
I am not accusing anyone of doing this. I have no inside information about UGA or LSU or anyother program doing this. But we all know its going on. And you can bet we will know where it is going on by the end of the fall season. Just like we will learn where it is not going on as well.
Before the 35 man limit it was common knowledge that certain programs brought in way more players than they planned on keeping. They would then farm those players out to local JC's and call upon them a year or two later if they showed promise. Some programs would carry 45-50 players and then farm out another 10-15 guys. Not a bad minor league system and it worked well for these college programs.
I know some will disagree with me. Thats fine I respect everyones opinion. But to me if your not up front and honest with the players your bringing in you are wrong. There is no other way around it , your wrong. And then dont forget about the players that have invested 1 2 3 4 years into your program only to be told that there is no room for you anymore. They have done everything you have asked of them. They have been a devoted team member and represented your program and school in a first class manner. Now your going to tell them there is no room for them? Something just doesnt sound right about that to me. Maybe I am wrong. But in my heart I dont believe I am.
I know this is big time sports. College baseball and the coach needs to win to keep his job. What makes a coach believe he is going to "win" by being dishonest and unfair to those that have bought into his program and layed it on the line for him? If thats what it takes to win I would never want to be a part of that.
I believe that character and a persons word are the most important thing they have. If a coach brings in kids with the understanding they will be a part of the baseball program and then they cut them because they over recruited they have no character and their word means nothing.
They should plan for 35 and if things do not work out they should be prepared to play with less than 35. Or you can plan for 46 and prepare to keep the best 35. But be prepared to build a reputation of being a program that does just that. And do not be surprised in the future when it becomes harder and harder to recruit.
Now if a coach is up front and says "I can not tell you who and who will not be on the team. We will determine that in the fall." I can respect that and then the player can make the decision and live with the results. But to recruit more than you can keep and use this type of tactic as a tryout situation without being up front about it is wrong.
People say do your homework. There is no way to be on the outside and know what is going on on the inside. If a coach offers a kid a scholley and says "We want you to be a part of our program." Is that enough? Should that be enough? IMO if the coach has any character at all and his worth a plug nickle it should be.
What is wrong with being up front and saying "We want you to come and tryout for the team. We can not be sure you will make it. But we sure would like you to come." The answer is obvious. Most if not all will seek another situation. No they wait until it is too late because they know you will not come if you know the deal before you come.
I am not accusing anyone of doing this. I have no inside information about UGA or LSU or anyother program doing this. But we all know its going on. And you can bet we will know where it is going on by the end of the fall season. Just like we will learn where it is not going on as well.
Before the 35 man limit it was common knowledge that certain programs brought in way more players than they planned on keeping. They would then farm those players out to local JC's and call upon them a year or two later if they showed promise. Some programs would carry 45-50 players and then farm out another 10-15 guys. Not a bad minor league system and it worked well for these college programs.
I know some will disagree with me. Thats fine I respect everyones opinion. But to me if your not up front and honest with the players your bringing in you are wrong. There is no other way around it , your wrong. And then dont forget about the players that have invested 1 2 3 4 years into your program only to be told that there is no room for you anymore. They have done everything you have asked of them. They have been a devoted team member and represented your program and school in a first class manner. Now your going to tell them there is no room for them? Something just doesnt sound right about that to me. Maybe I am wrong. But in my heart I dont believe I am.
I know this is big time sports. College baseball and the coach needs to win to keep his job. What makes a coach believe he is going to "win" by being dishonest and unfair to those that have bought into his program and layed it on the line for him? If thats what it takes to win I would never want to be a part of that.
I never was too good at math! You are correct he will have to cut 10.
quote:They should plan for 35 and if things do not work out they should be prepared to play with less than 35. Or you can plan for 46 and prepare to keep the best 35. But be prepared to build a reputation of being a program that does just that. And do not be surprised in the future when it becomes harder and harder to recruit.
...
I know this is big time sports. College baseball and the coach needs to win to keep his job. What makes a coach believe he is going to "win" by being dishonest and unfair to those that have bought into his program and layed it on the line for him? If thats what it takes to win I would never want to be a part of that.
Coach May,
Well put
Just look at Fresno states roster. I think it had 27. They won the college world series without over recruiting.It can be done. It is just unfair for these boys to have no where to go if they are being misled. the coaches should face a penalty for this type of recruiting.
The only way to fix the problem is for the parents & players to raise enough s*** and take their problem to the presidents of the universities. I can promise you 2 things: 1. Most of the presidents do not know what is going on 2. The head coach wants little if anything to do with answering to the president of the university
I think most coaches tell a player each year that they will have to compete for a spot . In fact they tell them no positions are safe.
I just came from a college tryout here. There were 45 players and usually there are 60-70 trying out. The 1st day 10 were cut. Today another 10 will go. I keep hearing that no player is safe. Fortunately we don't have all the tough rules NCAA has. I laugh when I hear parents hoping the team will join the NAIA or NCAA which is a possibility . I tell them they had better hope they don't get what they wish for.
I sat with a parent and his son was clearly not going to make the team but the coaches gave him every chance and were very fair with all the players.
The SIT rule is the biggest problem in trhe NCAA.
I agree with TPM. If my son signed an NLI and the coach reneged on it I would sue them.
I just came from a college tryout here. There were 45 players and usually there are 60-70 trying out. The 1st day 10 were cut. Today another 10 will go. I keep hearing that no player is safe. Fortunately we don't have all the tough rules NCAA has. I laugh when I hear parents hoping the team will join the NAIA or NCAA which is a possibility . I tell them they had better hope they don't get what they wish for.
I sat with a parent and his son was clearly not going to make the team but the coaches gave him every chance and were very fair with all the players.
The SIT rule is the biggest problem in trhe NCAA.
I agree with TPM. If my son signed an NLI and the coach reneged on it I would sue them.
So what is the deal? Did players sign an NLI and turned away (I thought it was a bindding agreement) or were players invited to come play and told if they made the team they would get X amount scholarship?
Coach May is correct about honestly in recruiting and there have been many programs that over recruit, players kow it yet still sign NLI and show up for a uni. I think a good practice here would be to discuss what goes on at certain programs (over recruiting, but not sure why the need to bash coaches. Just mentioning that a program has more show up in fall needed is enough to make people aware to do their homework that this happens will continue to happen, even with new rules in place.
JMO.
Coach May is correct about honestly in recruiting and there have been many programs that over recruit, players kow it yet still sign NLI and show up for a uni. I think a good practice here would be to discuss what goes on at certain programs (over recruiting, but not sure why the need to bash coaches. Just mentioning that a program has more show up in fall needed is enough to make people aware to do their homework that this happens will continue to happen, even with new rules in place.
JMO.
Based on the players we know and/or have heard about that have verbally committed to UGA for '09, UGA will have over 45 players entering fall '09 unless they cut players again.
Plus I have heard some of these players have agreed to walk-on even though they had offers from other big programs.
Plus I have heard some of these players have agreed to walk-on even though they had offers from other big programs.