Around and around we go were it stops nobody knows. unfortunitly the only one that gets hurt is the student athlete's and for me that is unacceptable. 11.7 scholly's is the first issue and transfer penalties if cut from team are ridiculous.
If a coach gives a player a release there should never be a sit rule...period they didn't offer the player a spot on team so whether he transferred or not he sits...why very Dumb
Perhaps someone with football and or basketball knowledge can tell me how they handle there recruiting or is this as i expect a baseball situation? I'd be interested in hearing.
I remember reading this article a few years ago. I guess the numbers need to be updated! http://www.hsbaseballweb.com/over_recruiting_2002.htm
quote:Originally posted by RYNO:
Around and around we go were it stops nobody knows. unfortunitly the only one that gets hurt is the student athlete's and for me that is unacceptable. 11.7 scholly's is the first issue and transfer penalties if cut from team are ridiculous.
If a coach gives a player a release there should never be a sit rule...period they didn't offer the player a spot on team so whether he transferred or not he sits...why very Dumb
RYNO- I think this is definately a baseball situation and I agree with what you are saying. There is no way a kid should be punished for a coach's error. In NCAA Football a coach would be scared to do this because if the word got out that he ever did this then the other recruits would start to look elsewhere because of the fear that this could happen to them.
Perhaps someone with football and or basketball knowledge can tell me how they handle there recruiting or is this as i expect a baseball situation? I'd be interested in hearing.
They have football redshirts, for one thing. Freshman football players are usually redshirts, unless they are super stars. Everyone is on a full ride, except the occasional walk-on. 85 schollys with 11 men on the field, versus baseball at 11.7 and 9. Hoops get 12 rides for 12 spots.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I have never heard of a senior having money taken away. Usually they just cut them.
************Whats the difference**************
If they give any BB money they have to maintain a 25% pakage minimumm. Cutting a BB scholly makes no sense.
****Only for 2008-09 newbies and beyond****
QUOTE]
I have never heard of a senior having money taken away. Usually they just cut them.
************Whats the difference**************
If they give any BB money they have to maintain a 25% pakage minimumm. Cutting a BB scholly makes no sense.
****Only for 2008-09 newbies and beyond****
QUOTE]
quote:Originally posted by CollegeParent:
I remember reading this article a few years ago. I guess the numbers need to be updated! [URL=http://www.hsbaseballweb.com/over_recruiting_2002.htm][/URL]
Howdeshell, in 2002, did not believe 'Over Recruiting' was an issue, and wrote the article with this in mind. When he wrote the year before,
and on this web site, several articles on "Stockpiling" in college baseball, I agree when Bob wrote "High School Baseball Web became public enemy #1!"
At that time, Howdeshell singled out several over-recruiting colleges:
LSU,
Nebraska
LA Tech
Cal St-F
UGa
OK St
ASU
In 2002, he may have missed many more including:
Texas
FSU
Clemson
Winthrop
MSU
For 2009, the number has grown from 40 to over 100!
That is significant.
Something needs to be done.
Fungo and Cleveland Dad, You guys are right on IMO. If a coach in a top level D-1 school isn't aggressive enough, he won't be there for long. If the majority of drafted players signed pro contracts there better be plenty of new talent ready to step in. It's the price you have to pay to play with the big boys. Also you can't stress enough about learning from " parents and/or mentors" as Thats-a-balk states, but I wouldn't pay to much attention to insults from posters refering to old sayings. This is America, where the last time I checked you could open you mouth, and as Young Gun Dad refered to "appear stupid".
Thoughts about a few comments made on this thead:
by phlash3
This doesn't have to happen. There are notable exceptions to the rule, such as Fresno State, which proves that over-recruiting need not occur.
Fort Valley commented about UGA:
Can UGA say with a straight face that 16 players did not sign pro contracts as expected? Very doubtful.
From FanofGame:
It could be a risky proposition for talented recruits to wait. By spring, much of the scholarship money may have dried up and quite a few may not want to take that chance. Besides, even if schools keep numbers down in the fall with early signees, what's to keep them from over-recruiting in the spring?
BobbleheadDoll commented:
I have heard anecdotes regarding this occurrence for seniors and know firsthand of a highly-recruited JUCO player who returned for his sophomore year and learned that his scholarship had been taken away. (The coach gave away too much money to incoming freshmen.) The player was not cut from the team; rather, he started the entire season and is headed to a CWS team this fall. He was definitely unhappy about the situation, but by the time he found out, it was too late to go anywhere else.
I read the HSBBW article about over-recruiting in 2002 and it provided the link to a related article. In the second article, there are some wonderful questions players and parents can ask when evaluating a program and its tendency to over-recruit.
http://www.hsbaseballweb.com/stockpiling_3.htm
Interesting tidbits from the aforementioned article:
To many coaches way of thinking an ideal roster size is 30 to 32 players, with a breakdown as follows:
12 to 14 pitchers
3 catchers
13 to 15 position players
A bonus is when a pitcher or two can also fill in as a position player, DH, etc.
For most players a program that limits its roster to 30 or so players will offer the best opportunity to be given a fair chance at playing time.
by phlash3
quote:If a coach in a top level D-1 school isn't aggressive enough, he won't be there for long. If the majority of drafted players signed pro contracts there better be plenty of new talent ready to step in. It's the price you have to pay to play with the big boys.
This doesn't have to happen. There are notable exceptions to the rule, such as Fresno State, which proves that over-recruiting need not occur.
Fort Valley commented about UGA:
quote:After cutting at least one returning player they are still 16 over the number for scholarships."
Can UGA say with a straight face that 16 players did not sign pro contracts as expected? Very doubtful.
From FanofGame:
quote:Maybe you will see less players comitting in November and really taking their time to chose a school. As mentioned the players that sign in November, it is a BIG deal to those kids and Im sure their parents. People assume the BEST players are taken then."
It could be a risky proposition for talented recruits to wait. By spring, much of the scholarship money may have dried up and quite a few may not want to take that chance. Besides, even if schools keep numbers down in the fall with early signees, what's to keep them from over-recruiting in the spring?
BobbleheadDoll commented:
quote:I have never heard of a senior having money taken away. Usually they just cut them. If they give any BB money they have to maintain a 25% package minimum. Cutting a BB scholly makes no sense. You will just have an unhappy player so why wouldn't the coach just cut him? An unhappy player who had money taken away would be like a cancer on the team.
I have heard anecdotes regarding this occurrence for seniors and know firsthand of a highly-recruited JUCO player who returned for his sophomore year and learned that his scholarship had been taken away. (The coach gave away too much money to incoming freshmen.) The player was not cut from the team; rather, he started the entire season and is headed to a CWS team this fall. He was definitely unhappy about the situation, but by the time he found out, it was too late to go anywhere else.
I read the HSBBW article about over-recruiting in 2002 and it provided the link to a related article. In the second article, there are some wonderful questions players and parents can ask when evaluating a program and its tendency to over-recruit.
http://www.hsbaseballweb.com/stockpiling_3.htm
Interesting tidbits from the aforementioned article:
To many coaches way of thinking an ideal roster size is 30 to 32 players, with a breakdown as follows:
12 to 14 pitchers
3 catchers
13 to 15 position players
A bonus is when a pitcher or two can also fill in as a position player, DH, etc.
For most players a program that limits its roster to 30 or so players will offer the best opportunity to be given a fair chance at playing time.
I'm pretty sure you have to attend class (or practice) to be considered a transfer. If you haven't attended class and the coach releases you, then you don't have to sit out.
If you closely followed the UGA program over the last five years and had inside information from some of the players you would realize what was going on there. The multiple coaching changes (not for head coaching jobs or higher profile schools) and personal stories from the players would help you have a clearer picture of what was going on. If you kept track of the recruits and where they ended up you would see that it is a tough place to get playing time at, but works out well for some. You just don't hear about all the players that have left.
Many recruited players and their parents do not have this information and they continue to go there. If you are a stud, it may be fine for you, but many of the players they recruit and give the impression that they will play do not have the talent. They grab 20 or so players every year and take the best as they see fit, often cutting or farming out a majority of them.
It has been successful and the administration supported the coach with a new contract, however the price to pay has been high for some and I know that some players have been mislead as to their chances to get playing time. Maybe that is common, but it doesn't happen at all successful programs, and probably shouldn't happen at all.
Many recruited players and their parents do not have this information and they continue to go there. If you are a stud, it may be fine for you, but many of the players they recruit and give the impression that they will play do not have the talent. They grab 20 or so players every year and take the best as they see fit, often cutting or farming out a majority of them.
It has been successful and the administration supported the coach with a new contract, however the price to pay has been high for some and I know that some players have been mislead as to their chances to get playing time. Maybe that is common, but it doesn't happen at all successful programs, and probably shouldn't happen at all.
Infield08, As usual you bring up a lot of good points. I'll have to chew on them for a while. It's hard to come up with a fix for all situations but perhaps this site can help steer "some/many" people in the right direction.
Basketball has twelve rides for fifteen spots. Women's basketball get fifteen for fifteen.quote:Originally posted by Dad04:
They have football redshirts, for one thing. Freshman football players are usually redshirts, unless they are super stars. Everyone is on a full ride, except the occasional walk-on. 85 schollys with 11 men on the field, versus baseball at 11.7 and 9. Hoops get 12 rides for 12 spots.
quote:many of the players they recruit and give the impression that they will play do not have the talent.
I understand that there are many players that want to attend a college that is in state and also a big time program in a top conference.
What I don't understand is why recruiters at a national power program would give the impression of playing time to kids who lack the necessary talent to play there. That seems like a waste of valuable recruiting time.
The porblem is that the people making all the observations and critiques are on the outside discussing rumors and hearsay----has anyone ever interviewed the coach in question about the real facts
I agree with PG---the coaches do not have the time to be playing frivilous games regarding recruiting
I agree with PG---the coaches do not have the time to be playing frivilous games regarding recruiting
This is not strictly a UGA phenomenon. It is happening all over Texas and other places as well. We are definitely in a transition phase with the new rules - coaches, players and parents will have to adapt how they approach the recruiting process. Those schools that over recruit and then cut will obtain the appropriate reputation.
It is incumbent upon parents to advise their player-sons on finding the right fit first (school-wise, then baseball opportunity-wise) before making any commitment. If you get stars in your eyes and jump at (or chase) an offer from "big state school U" you may be disappointed later on down the road. It is obvious the commitment of some coaches will mean very little, while others will be more careful and honor their commitments.
It is not a fair situation for the student-athletes, but life is often not fair, and requires some advance planning. It also requires a humble approach (bury the ego) in order to avoid being humbled.
It is incumbent upon parents to advise their player-sons on finding the right fit first (school-wise, then baseball opportunity-wise) before making any commitment. If you get stars in your eyes and jump at (or chase) an offer from "big state school U" you may be disappointed later on down the road. It is obvious the commitment of some coaches will mean very little, while others will be more careful and honor their commitments.
It is not a fair situation for the student-athletes, but life is often not fair, and requires some advance planning. It also requires a humble approach (bury the ego) in order to avoid being humbled.
If a coach took away a scholarship I would move on to another college. Once an NLI is signed he can't take it away until the following year by letting the player know he is not renewing the BB money. This happens quite often and usually at the exit meeting. Unfortunately the new rules require you to sit out for a year. If a coach renegs on his verbal offer to give a transfer a schollarship he offered and that guy hasn't reported as stated above he is free to move on without sitting.
I have seen many guys lose their scholarships at the end of the year. I know one guy who had the coach walk out to the mound and told him he would not renew the scholly. He was upset with the guy's performance and lost his temper.
I have always know that scholarships can dissappear at any year depending on several things including new recruits. Last year a soph left half way through the spring because a freshman took over his role. The guy who left was ahigh ranked prospect and saw his role diminished substancially. I saw a pitcher leave last year who only got 9 innings with poor stats who went to a D11 and went 13-0 last season. He actually was signed by a MLB team and left college and is now in the minors.
Coaches are human and they make mistakes. Some very talented players get cut or lose scholarships. Some times the chemistry is just bad. There is often no rhyme or reason for what happens. My son had an awful year last year and he got a $2000.00 increase in his BB money which is already a large amount. I was worried he would be let go so who knows.
To me over recruiting will always be there and only the sit rule is a problem. If my son had been cut in his freashman year he would have transfered after the fall. He would have picked his courses so they transferred and moved on. The fact that he had a large scholarship made being cut not likely. At the exit meeting the coach will tell you how he sees your role and then you could make up your mind to stay or leave.
The sit rule doesn't effect us but I hope they change it for the good of the students who find themselves in an utenable situation.
I have seen many guys lose their scholarships at the end of the year. I know one guy who had the coach walk out to the mound and told him he would not renew the scholly. He was upset with the guy's performance and lost his temper.
I have always know that scholarships can dissappear at any year depending on several things including new recruits. Last year a soph left half way through the spring because a freshman took over his role. The guy who left was ahigh ranked prospect and saw his role diminished substancially. I saw a pitcher leave last year who only got 9 innings with poor stats who went to a D11 and went 13-0 last season. He actually was signed by a MLB team and left college and is now in the minors.
Coaches are human and they make mistakes. Some very talented players get cut or lose scholarships. Some times the chemistry is just bad. There is often no rhyme or reason for what happens. My son had an awful year last year and he got a $2000.00 increase in his BB money which is already a large amount. I was worried he would be let go so who knows.
To me over recruiting will always be there and only the sit rule is a problem. If my son had been cut in his freashman year he would have transfered after the fall. He would have picked his courses so they transferred and moved on. The fact that he had a large scholarship made being cut not likely. At the exit meeting the coach will tell you how he sees your role and then you could make up your mind to stay or leave.
The sit rule doesn't effect us but I hope they change it for the good of the students who find themselves in an utenable situation.
35 man roster. If you over recruit you are going to have to let some guys go. If you expect to lose X number of players to the draft and then it doesnt pan out then you are going to have some issues with your roster if you have recruited to replace guys that now are not going to be leaving. There are many different scenarios that can take place. I would expect some programs to come in under the 35 man limit because they did not over recruit and lost some guys to the draft they did not expect to lose. Before there was not roster limit. Now there is. There are going to be some growing pains for the players , parents and coaches. Its going to take some time for people to learn how to work within the framework of the new rules.
I agree with TR and PG here...coaches are always lambasted about this but we certainly don't have all the facts at hand.
Keep this in mind: there is a 35 man roster max, but only 30 players can receive athletic $. I suspect that many of the players involved were receiving Georgia's Hope Scholarship $ and/or other forms of aid. If its LOI money, UGA is on the hook for the scholly $ for a year, but there's no guarantee of a roster spot.
Its a very difficult system to manage as a head coach, and it may seem unfair to parents and players but its the world we live in. Its even an issue in my neighborhood
Keep this in mind: there is a 35 man roster max, but only 30 players can receive athletic $. I suspect that many of the players involved were receiving Georgia's Hope Scholarship $ and/or other forms of aid. If its LOI money, UGA is on the hook for the scholly $ for a year, but there's no guarantee of a roster spot.
Its a very difficult system to manage as a head coach, and it may seem unfair to parents and players but its the world we live in. Its even an issue in my neighborhood
quote:Its even an issue in my neighborhood
I'll bet it is!
I agree that we do not know the entire circumstances regarding what transires at each program regarding recruiting.
However, there are many programs that have less than 35 on their roster, always have and always will and do very well. It's not always about getting caught short, but about giving the opportunities to those that they worked hard to bring to their program, to make the roster and PLAY, regardless of how big or small their role may be.
This is not new to UGA, this IMO, is a clear case (see last falls numbers) of over recruiting. I know of players who passed up other very good opportunities to go play at UGA and gone a year later due to too many showing up at their position and not informed at the time of recruiting. UGA is a typical example as to why the NCAA imposed roster limits.
JMO
However, there are many programs that have less than 35 on their roster, always have and always will and do very well. It's not always about getting caught short, but about giving the opportunities to those that they worked hard to bring to their program, to make the roster and PLAY, regardless of how big or small their role may be.
This is not new to UGA, this IMO, is a clear case (see last falls numbers) of over recruiting. I know of players who passed up other very good opportunities to go play at UGA and gone a year later due to too many showing up at their position and not informed at the time of recruiting. UGA is a typical example as to why the NCAA imposed roster limits.
JMO
I was talking with a father last night who also had a son on the road to Omaha but they lost in the Super Regional. He was saying that several of the returners received notice this week that they were not going to on the roster this season. He stated that they always have a very large recruiting class come in each year and several of the recruits don’t make it on the roster and several of the returners are let go each year, far and above players signing or not signing due to the draft.
I agree with the roster limitations but coaches have the experience to work through this and the new recruits do not and those on the team have very little options if they want to continue to play at the D1 level.
Why is it that coaches are not held accountable for their over recruiting?
I agree with the roster limitations but coaches have the experience to work through this and the new recruits do not and those on the team have very little options if they want to continue to play at the D1 level.
Why is it that coaches are not held accountable for their over recruiting?
There is no rule or law that says a coach can't recruit as nany as he wishes or needs. So I am not sure what he would be accountable for. I have heard horror stories for years from guys who have been dumped. I have also heard success stories from guys who were dumped and went on to have outstanding careerers. The only thing that is unfair is the sit rule and to put the APR above the fair treatment of athletes who are cut.
This may sound a bit stupid but the schools that supposedly "overrecruit" are well known are they not?
This being the case why do kids keep signing on at these schools?
Nobody has a gun to their head---if I am the coach and the kids keep coming I keep doing what I am doing---Georgia certainly reaped the benefits this past season
Keep in mind that recruiting is a two way street
This being the case why do kids keep signing on at these schools?
Nobody has a gun to their head---if I am the coach and the kids keep coming I keep doing what I am doing---Georgia certainly reaped the benefits this past season
Keep in mind that recruiting is a two way street
Athletic scholarships should be abolished and all universities should be forced to meet 100% of financial need, just like the Ivies do it. Columbia University won the Ivy League this year and went on to a regional tournament where they were defeated by Coastal Carolina and East Carolina. There were players from very poor families on the team and some from middle class and wealthy families, but Columbia paid in grants 100% of their respective family's need, which is that portion of the college's cost expected to be paid by the family given the family's financial situation. Columbia's yearly cost is $51,000. Some families pay nothing and some pay all of it. I have had one child graduate from there and the other currently attends and is on the volleyball team. To be on an Ivy League team is more a source of pride than anything else. That's what it should be for all athletes. That football players get 100% scholarship and there are 85 of them is a huge injustice.
After this year plays out at D1's across the nation with this phenomenon of over-recruiting by Coaches either intentionally or unintentionally I think we'll begin to see the NLI and LOI change dramatically. I think we'll see players and parents begin to give at most to Coaches a verbal which won't lock them in later in the year if they see/hear that State U has signed 15-20 players. They may feel the need to "open up" talks with perhaps other D1's but most likely D2's and beyond. Why not? A Coach signs a kid in November he has that kid locked up basically from being recruited and looked at the remainder of the season. Over-recruiting will change the face and glamour of NLI periods.
IMO, I think that the HC at UGA knew good and well what he was doing by signing all these kids during the year and what he was going to have to do eventually. Had these kids even remotely knew this chance of being dismissed before the school year even began they would not have signed, obviously.
IMO, I think that the HC at UGA knew good and well what he was doing by signing all these kids during the year and what he was going to have to do eventually. Had these kids even remotely knew this chance of being dismissed before the school year even began they would not have signed, obviously.
Infield 08- out of curiosity, since you mentioned your neighborhood.... I was wondering about ASU and how it panned out for them in the draft as I know they signed many new recruits too. Do you have any numbers as to how many of their new recruits were drafted and signed? And how many of their current players signed? Thanks.
Some coaches will tell you that there should be integrity and honesty that is involved in recruiting. This is not about letting players go after a year, but allowing new players to show up that have a definite place on the roster and a chance to prove themselves and not telling then that if they don't give up their NLI and play for a year at JUCO they will pay the consequences. There is a huge difference between over recruiting and stock piling.
I do agree that honesty works both ways, a HC signs a player then suddenly it all is about the draft.
Players use their signing status to increase their draft slot. Players tell coaches they are coming in the fall yet telling scouts they want to play pro ball. The coach has to protect himself. So in some sense, many players have helped to create the situation. The player that will get caught in the middle of this mess is not the top signing recruit.
I do agree that honesty works both ways, a HC signs a player then suddenly it all is about the draft.
Players use their signing status to increase their draft slot. Players tell coaches they are coming in the fall yet telling scouts they want to play pro ball. The coach has to protect himself. So in some sense, many players have helped to create the situation. The player that will get caught in the middle of this mess is not the top signing recruit.
CABB, I was responding to rbinaz's remark about his neighborhood. Perhaps he can shed some light on the situation at ASU.
The only hope is to curb an indifferent NCAA. Baseball has nuances that need to be adressed. Plenty of smart people on all sides. But how to get them together? How do you get the NCAA to admit shabby management?
Can't do it through the court system.
Only hope the court of public opinion.
I'd say a segment of 60 minutes would motivate the right people with the right motivations to get together. The NCAA does not like bad press.
No expose - no chance.
Can't do it through the court system.
Only hope the court of public opinion.
I'd say a segment of 60 minutes would motivate the right people with the right motivations to get together. The NCAA does not like bad press.
No expose - no chance.
This has been a very interesting thread and hopefully will educate parents and players making these decisions in the coming months.
We called 07 teammates and parents and asked their impressions about schools in their conference. We heard players with regrets about signing for the prestige. We also heard the over recruiting stories, which by the way happens in Juco too. (Think about who is being bumped at the Juco for the UGA players now looking to move.) Taking pride out of the decision was the best advice I read in this thread.
We were told by a parent of an 07 grad to go where they really wanted him, to understand that the money talks. We are seeing the truth in that statement by watching what is happening to other 08 players. Unfortunately I think the GA hope program creates misconception that some students are scholarship atheletes. I would suspect that many of the players cut from UGA are not receiving athletic scholarships. It happens in schools all over GA, Juco too. It's very easy to recruit players with Hope eligibility. Don't misunderstand, our son will go into this fall knowing that he has to prove his worth as a scholarship athlete and still earn his spot on the team, but he's going without the added pressure that some are now facing.
If you're starting this process with your player, take a step back, take off the blinders, and leave pride out of the picture. Go to games unannounced and just sit discreetly in the stands listening and observing. Take it all in, the campus, the students, and especially your son's impressions. The fit is the most important factor. Thank goodness we finally visited a school where our son left saying "this feels right".
By the way, uninformed local sports writers make me crazy! I just read an article in our local paper about baseball signings. "The best players sign D1 in Nov, bad grades or fringe players go Juco, blah, blah, blah" Bad information leads to bad decisions!
We called 07 teammates and parents and asked their impressions about schools in their conference. We heard players with regrets about signing for the prestige. We also heard the over recruiting stories, which by the way happens in Juco too. (Think about who is being bumped at the Juco for the UGA players now looking to move.) Taking pride out of the decision was the best advice I read in this thread.
We were told by a parent of an 07 grad to go where they really wanted him, to understand that the money talks. We are seeing the truth in that statement by watching what is happening to other 08 players. Unfortunately I think the GA hope program creates misconception that some students are scholarship atheletes. I would suspect that many of the players cut from UGA are not receiving athletic scholarships. It happens in schools all over GA, Juco too. It's very easy to recruit players with Hope eligibility. Don't misunderstand, our son will go into this fall knowing that he has to prove his worth as a scholarship athlete and still earn his spot on the team, but he's going without the added pressure that some are now facing.
If you're starting this process with your player, take a step back, take off the blinders, and leave pride out of the picture. Go to games unannounced and just sit discreetly in the stands listening and observing. Take it all in, the campus, the students, and especially your son's impressions. The fit is the most important factor. Thank goodness we finally visited a school where our son left saying "this feels right".
By the way, uninformed local sports writers make me crazy! I just read an article in our local paper about baseball signings. "The best players sign D1 in Nov, bad grades or fringe players go Juco, blah, blah, blah" Bad information leads to bad decisions!
I have a question on this subject, it is mentioned that you can find out how many athletes have been recruited at a certain school. Where is this information posted?
Two, if my son doesn't get that scholarship his worth in the draft is considerably less, .i.e college did not think student good enough, so why would we pay $$$. Thank you.
Two, if my son doesn't get that scholarship his worth in the draft is considerably less, .i.e college did not think student good enough, so why would we pay $$$. Thank you.
I don't think this report from PG Crosschecker posted in March has been mentioned in this discussion. College Recruiting Rankings for 2008 High School Classes I thought it was pretty interesting.
PUH dad, Scout.com has a lot of variations that show the recruits for colleges.
PUH dad, Scout.com has a lot of variations that show the recruits for colleges.
Pop what does college scholarship have to do with with the pro draft?
Not aware of any info on recruits and who they signed with.
There are approx 10,000 players playing D1 and the PG guys are a small amount of that. That is certainly not a complete list as they state. JC transfers are not even a large amount over all. College teams have to build depth and the do that by signing HS grads with 4 years to play/develope. Most colleges do not reveal their total signings and their walk ons.
Not aware of any info on recruits and who they signed with.
There are approx 10,000 players playing D1 and the PG guys are a small amount of that. That is certainly not a complete list as they state. JC transfers are not even a large amount over all. College teams have to build depth and the do that by signing HS grads with 4 years to play/develope. Most colleges do not reveal their total signings and their walk ons.
Here is another list from 2008 class. 2009 list will come out in November and added to through next summer.
pgcrosschecker 2008 college committment list
pgcrosschecker 2008 college committment list
BHD,
Having a college scholarship offered and accepted by a high school senior who is then drafted is extremely important.
The first, and most compelling reason is that it gives the draftee leverage in the negotiations to get him signed. With out the college scholarship, the player is a bit like a senior sign, but younger...they have no leverage. I believe the Brewers, in 2007, made a young man without a college scholarship option a first round selection. He ended up signing for several hundred thousand below slot money.
The other reason the scholarship offer is significant is that it helps in valuing the college scholarship plan the MLB team will fund as part of the negotiations/contract, assuming the player includes it as important and then uses it.
If someone is a high school graduate who is drafted high and does not have the college scholarship as his option, he is pretty much without any leverage in the negotiations because he does not have an option to which he is committed and from which the MLB offer must convince him to switch.
Hope that helps.
Having a college scholarship offered and accepted by a high school senior who is then drafted is extremely important.
The first, and most compelling reason is that it gives the draftee leverage in the negotiations to get him signed. With out the college scholarship, the player is a bit like a senior sign, but younger...they have no leverage. I believe the Brewers, in 2007, made a young man without a college scholarship option a first round selection. He ended up signing for several hundred thousand below slot money.
The other reason the scholarship offer is significant is that it helps in valuing the college scholarship plan the MLB team will fund as part of the negotiations/contract, assuming the player includes it as important and then uses it.
If someone is a high school graduate who is drafted high and does not have the college scholarship as his option, he is pretty much without any leverage in the negotiations because he does not have an option to which he is committed and from which the MLB offer must convince him to switch.
Hope that helps.
I am aware of that . However a higher round guy may not have any leverage to start with. Most early round guys have scholarships. The lack of a scholarsip will not affect a later round guy as I know several who had no college prospects and were signed.
There are tons of guys who sign and were not college eligible. .If they get a bonus it is based on skill and guys who are college elligible and get bonuses are usulaly scholarship guys.
There are tons of guys who sign and were not college eligible. .If they get a bonus it is based on skill and guys who are college elligible and get bonuses are usulaly scholarship guys.
Thanks for the list, PG. Clicking on the last column, College Commitment will group all the recruits for a particular school. You have to work it a bit. For Georgia, click page 5 then when it loads click College Commitment. That seems to be a lot easier than digging through Scout.com. I was looking for a couple of examples there and couldn't find what I wanted.
infielddad,
That's what I was thinking. Well put.
infielddad,
That's what I was thinking. Well put.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:quote:many of the players they recruit and give the impression that they will play do not have the talent.
I understand that there are many players that want to attend a college that is in state and also a big time program in a top conference.
What I don't understand is why recruiters at a national power program would give the impression of playing time to kids who lack the necessary talent to play there. That seems like a waste of valuable recruiting time.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:quote:many of the players they recruit and give the impression that they will play do not have the talent.
I understand that there are many players that want to attend a college that is in state and also a big time program in a top conference.
What I don't understand is why recruiters at a national power program would give the impression of playing time to kids who lack the necessary talent to play there. That seems like a waste of valuable recruiting time.
I AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS BUT I RECALL THAT BEAR BRYANT FOUGHT THE NCAA WHEN IT PUT LIMITS ON FOOTBALL ROSTERS AND SCHOLARSHIPS. WHEN ASKED WHY, HE REPLIED "I'LL SIGN ANYONE WHO CAN PLAY WELL FOR ME OR AGAINST ME AND I SURE DON'T WANT TO PLAY AGAINST 'EM."
CLEARLY THERE ARE PROGRAMS, LIKE UGA, THAT USE SAME APPROACH. IF THEY CAN GET A GOOD KID TO SIGN, THE KID IS TAKEN OUT OF THE MARKET -- AT LEAST FOR A WHILE, MAYBE PERMANENTLY. MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO THE COACH, AS LONG AS HE SUCCEEDS IN FIELDING EITHER KEEPING THE TALENT OR KEEPING THE TALENT AWAY FROM THE COMPETITION.
AS I COUNT THE UGA RESULTS, THEY HAVE 55 PLAYERS EITHER SIGNED NLI'S OR RETURNING. FIVE PLAYERS WERE DRAFTED IN THE TOP 10 ROUNDS. ASSUMING ALL 5 GO PRO, THAT LEAVES 50 PLAYERS TOTAL IN BEST CASE SCENARIO.
PER THE NCAA, FOR THIS YEAR THERE WILL BE 30 SCHOLLY POSITIONS AND 35 ROSTER SPOTS -- MEANING AT LEAST 30 KIDS ARE GOING TO BE TOLD, "SORRY PARD, MORE PLAYERS SHOWED UP THAN PLANNED AND WE RAN OUT OF SLOTS -- NO SCHOLLY, NO ROSTER SPOT. BY THE WAY, IF YOU ATTEND EVEN ONE CLASS, YOU WILL SUFFER THE TRANSFER RULE. WE CAN RELEASE YOU FROM THE NLI AND YOU CAN PURSUE ANOTHER PROGRAM -- IF YOU AGREE 'NO HARM, NO FOUL' OTHERWISE YOU CAN SIT ON THE BENCH FOR A YEAR, GET CUT AND THEN HAVE TO SIT OUT A YEAR; AND WHO'S GONNA' WANT YOU AFTER BEING OUT OF BASEBALL TWO YEARS ALONG WITH A REPUTATION OF NOT BEING A 'TEAM PLAYER'. HERE'S YOUR HAT, NOW RUN ALONG."
MY SON WAS RECRUITED BY UGA, THAT WAS HIS FIRST CHOICE -- UNTIL HE FOUND OUT HE HAD WAY TOO MANY FELLOW HIGH LEVEL PLAYERS TELLING HIM THE SAME STORY HE WAS TOLD BY UGA COACHES. THEN HE DIDN'T FEEL SO SPECIAL; IN FACT HE FELT BETRAYED. I TOLD HIM TO BE WARY -- THE NLI PROCESS FAVORS THE SCHOOLS, NOT THE PLAYERS. WE LOOKED A LOT OF OTHER SCHOOLS AND ULTIMATELY FOUND ONE (D-1) WITH A GREAT PROGRAM, GREAT COACHES WHO DON'T DO THE "TELL THEM ALL THEY ARE THE BEST; AND WE'LL LOCK 'EM AWAY FROM THE COMPETITION AND CUT THE EXCESS JUST BEFORE SCHOOL STARTS."
PARENTS INVOLVEMENT IN THIS PROCESS IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT. DON'T BE OVERIMPRESSED BY THESE COACHES -- THERE'S NOT A ROCKET SCIENTIST AMONG THEM; IF THEY WEREN'T IN THEIR CURRENT POSITION, THEY WOULD LIKELY BE COACHING AT THE LOCAL HIGH SCHOOL. TEACHING PE AND COACHING A TRAVEL TEAM IN THE SUMMER.
AND FIND SOMEONE WHO DOES PERSONAL INSTRUCTION/SCOUTING FOR COLLEGE/PRO TEAMS. WE DID AND HE HAD PERSONAL INSIGHTS THAT WE WOULD NEVER HAVE ACQUIRED WITHOUT HIM. IN FACT, HE WARNED US ABOUT UGA AND OTHER PROGRAMS AND GAVE US GOOD ADVICE ON VARIOUS COACHES PHILOSOPHIES. ALSO, REALISTICALLY DISCUSS WITH YOUR SON: GETTING PLAYING TIME, BEING ASSURED A SPOT, QUALITY EDUCATION. COMPARE OLD ROSTERS AND LOOK AT THE CHANGES AND YEARS OF THE PLAYERS. IF YOU SEE THAT A BIG PROGRAM HAS A LOT OF PLAYER TURNOVER AND SIGNS FAR TOO MANY; WELL, THAT'S NOT GOING TO CHANGE.
UNFORTUNATELY, THE INCENTIVES IN THE RECRUITING PROCESS AT HIGH LEVELS OF COLLEGE COMPETITION REWARD WINNING WHILE COMPLYING WITH THE BARE MINIMUM NCAA REQUIREMENTS; NO REWARDS FOR HONESTY, INTEGRITY, PLAYER DEVELOPMENT OR ANYTHING ELSE OF MORAL VALUE. THE UNOFFICIAL MOTTO IS "WIN, AND COMPLY WITH THE NCAA RULES; OR AT LEAST DON'T GET CAUGHT."
THE NCAA NEEDS TO GET A BETTER HANDLE ON THIS SITUATION IN BASEBALL. IT NEEDS MORE SCHOLARSHIPS AND MAKE THEM FULL FOR ALL ON THE ROSTER. ROSTER LIMITS ARE OK AT 30. ANY MORE AND THE COACHES JUST DO THE BEAR BRYANT ACT. ALSO HAVE NLI'S LIMITED TO THE NUMBER OF OPEN ROSTER SLOTS -- ONCE THEY ARE USED UP, NO MORE NLI OFFERS UNTIL NEXT YEAR. IF A PROGRAM SIGNS PLAYERS THEY BELIEVE WILL BE DRAFTED, WELL, THAT'S A HIGH-RISK, HIGH REWARD SITUATION -- AND THOSE PLAYERS WILL BE PICKED UP BY ANY NUMBER OF SCHOOL IF THEY DON'T GO PRO. PROGRAMS WHO SIGN TOO MANY PLAYERS WILL HAVE TO PAY THE SCHOLLY ANYWAY AND WILL HAVE THERE ROSTER REDUCED THE NEXT YEAR BY THE SAME NUMBER OF EXCESS SIGNEES.
MY SON WILL PLAY ON A TEAM THAT WILL PLAY AGAINST UGA NEXT SEASON AND HE IS FIRED-UP. BUT HE FEELS BAD FOR SEVERAL OF HIS GOOD FRIENDS WHO SIGNED WITH UGA, THEN CALLED TO SAY THEY HEARD 23 FRESHMEN WERE SIGNED AND WERE TOLD, "YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE SIGNED IF YOU DIDN'T THINK YOU WERE GOOD ENOUGH; BUT YOU'RE COMMITTED NOW SO YOU NEED TO HONOR YOUR COMMITTMENT. BESIDES, THIS HAPPENS EVERY YEAR AND IT ALWAYS WORKS OUT." UNFORTUNATELY, THE UGA COACH DIDN'T SAY: IT WORKS OUT FOR UGA, BUT NOT THE PLAYER.
Brings to mind that old adage about lying down with dawgs...
More fallout to come on this. The handwriting was on the wall for those who kept their eyes open. BTW, Maven, pls review Board Manners regarding all Caps (altho your outrage is perfectly understandable).
More fallout to come on this. The handwriting was on the wall for those who kept their eyes open. BTW, Maven, pls review Board Manners regarding all Caps (altho your outrage is perfectly understandable).