Umpire Evaluations

We do not request or accept coaches' evaluations. We found a long time ago that most often the opinions of those who have a vested interest in the outcome of the game and who do not know correct umpire mechanics and most likely could not pass a rules test, are meaningless.

This is not to say we don't listen to concerns or praise. Concerns are addressed by sending out qualified evaluators to determine validity.

All of our umpres are evaluated by upper level umpires, all of whom have gone to proschool or have had some level of pro training, at least once in the pre-season and at least three times during the season.

I know of an association whose assigner software works in the same manner as the one you describe. Their experience is that usually the losing coach gives poor evaluations and the winning coach give better evaluations. They now delete all evaluations without printing or reading them.

Jimmy I would think that the system you and your guys operate under would be the exception rather than the rule. I think you make a good point in that it's hard to listen to those who have an interest in the outcome of the game - ie coaches. When I was in Kentucky we were asked to rank the umpires for post season play. We just had to put them in order of how we felt they did a good job. Didn't have to evaluate them on a single game or certain aspects of the job - just how they did overall. I felt this did a pretty good job of evaluating umpires because I usually got the guys I ranked higher. They did a good job in those games and I was glad we had them. Only problem with this system is there were some guys who never did any of our games so it was very difficult to really rank everyone. I started leaving off the guys I never saw or saw once a season. Didn't seem to have any kind of impact on anything.

In d8's situation as a coach I wouldn't like it. I don't want to sit down and put that much evaluation in two guys after every game. I got to make sure the equipment is put away, field is taken care of, all the kids were picked up all before I can go home. When I get home I'm probably heading for bed and the next day I have to teach so I'm not real sure when I would have the time to do something I don't want to do in the first place.

The real issue is if you're going to ask for evaluations like this they have to be anonymous. If not then that's when the "games" start getting played. If I get a guy that I think will hold it against me if I grade him low then I have to change how I grade him just to stay on his good side.

Coach, part of the OP that I was thinking of when I posted was the areas in which they exepected the coaches to evaluate an umpire:

quote:

Game mgt
Communication
Field Presence/Professionalism
Rules Knowledge
Mechanics/Position
Physical Condition/Appearance

How many coaches in any one league have attended umpire training and have a good working knowledge of two and three man mechanics? Even at the college level I get coaches telling me where I am supposed to be and what I am supposed to be looking at; and they're completely wrong.

Why would anyone ask a coach who has no understanding of the fourth advantageous out, or proper base awards or the enforcement for an intentionally dropped fly ball for his opinion on an umpire's rules knowledge?

I was once approached by an AD with a proposal to allow coaches and AD's select varsity worthy umpires from the association's roster. I told them I would agree provided the umpire association could select varsity worthy coaches. The matter was dropped.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
We found a long time ago that most often the opinions of those who have a vested interest in the outcome of the game and who do not know correct umpire mechanics and most likely could not pass a rules test, are meaningless.

Seems like your opinion of the intelligence of coaches in your area is about the same as mine is of the umpires in our area.

We just went to the same system as d8, and I'm happy I'll be able to give some feedback regarding our chapter without having to stop down my day and call our chapter president, even if have no clue about rules, mechanics, baseball, or any other facet of life.

quote:

Originally posted by ironhorse:

Seems like your opinion of the intelligence of coaches in your area is about the same as mine is of the umpires in our area.

Perhaps not. You confuse my opinon of a coach's intelligence with my opinion of his training and credibility to properly evaluate umpires.

If I were to evaluate coaches' performance, I believe most of them would feel the way I feel about them evaluating umpires.

I have great respect for coaches, their intelligence and baseball experiece. Is that still the same opinion as yours?

quote:

We just went to the same system as d8, and I'm happy I'll be able to give some feedback regarding our chapter without having to stop down my day and call our chapter president, even if have no clue about rules, mechanics, baseball, or any other facet of life.

So you're happy to give an opinion on things of which you "have no clue"?

That's exactly why most associations pay no attention to coaches' evaluations.

In Missouri, high school coaches are required to complete evaluations on all Varsity-level games. They score the umpires on:
* Verbal Communication Skills
* Physical Appearance
* Effort
* Control
* Consistency
* Professionalism

The score is given between 1 (State Finals-caliber) to 4 (Sub-Varsity-caliber). The coach can also indicate that the umpire needs to improve an area. These rankings are given in an overall score on the official's page on the MSHSAA site.

I can't see individual scores, but I see my average rating. I can also see how many times coaches indicated I needed to work on an area, but no details on why or when it was indicated.

I don't necessarily agree with the system.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Coach, part of the OP that I was thinking of when I posted was the areas in which they exepected the coaches to evaluate an umpire:

quote:

Game mgt
Communication
Field Presence/Professionalism
Rules Knowledge
Mechanics/Position
Physical Condition/Appearance

How many coaches in any one league have attended umpire training and have a good working knowledge of two and three man mechanics? Even at the college level I get coaches telling me where I am supposed to be and what I am supposed to be looking at; and they're completely wrong.

Why would anyone ask a coach who has no understanding of the fourth advantageous out, or proper base awards or the enforcement for an intentionally dropped fly ball for his opinion on an umpire's rules knowledge?

I was once approached by an AD with a proposal to allow coaches and AD's select varsity worthy umpires from the association's roster. I told them I would agree provided the umpire association could select varsity worthy coaches. The matter was dropped.

Jimmy I'm with you in that I don't want to evaluate anybody in those areas mainly because I don't want to put the time or effort into it. Plus you're right in that a lot of coaches wouldn't have a clue what to look for. That being said I (and others I know) do try to know the rules, mechanics and all that. If just helps me be prepared as a coach when I do want to discuss something with an ump.

Can I pass a test that you guys take - I doubt it.

I think what we did in Kentucky with just ranking guys for post season work is fine and I think a coach and umpire should have one or two scratches if possible. There are some guys I absolutely do not want calling my games. I'm sure there are some coaches you guys might want to avoid.

And, Coach, we know which coaches to listen to and which to ignore. We get some calls and some emails and we'll send someone out to see what's going on. We don't ignore legitimate problems.

As long as umpires are come from the population at large, there will be some who don't perform as well as others. We have dismissed eight in the past five years.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Perhaps not. You confuse my opinon of a coach's intelligence with my opinion of his training and credibility to properly evaluate umpires.

If I were to evaluate coaches' performance, I believe most of them would feel the way I feel about them evaluating umpires.

I have great respect for coaches, their intelligence and baseball experiece. Is that still the same opinion as yours?

Well when you said most coaches weren't likely to pass a rules test that seemed like a shot at their intelligence to me. A coach not smart enough to learn/remember the rules of the game he works in sounds stupid to me.

quote:

So you're happy to give an opinion on things of which you "have no clue"?

That's exactly why most associations pay no attention to coaches' evaluations.

Um, the "no clue" comment was tongue-in-cheek. I thought that was fairly obvious, but I guess sometimes you guys miss the obvious... just kidding.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ironhorse:
Well when you said most coaches weren't likely to pass a rules test that seemed like a shot at their intelligence to me. A coach not smart enough to learn/remember the rules of the game he works in sounds stupid to me.[QUOTE]

There are many axioms in baseball, and one I like is this....

Playing is not Coaching and Coaching isnt Umpiring....each area has its own level of experiences and areas of influence.....

If MST were here he would give you the 80/20 rule...80 percent of the game is played with 20 percent of the rules...Most, but not all, participants are versed in the 20 percent of the rules...its the other 80 percent that makes up the "devil in the details"..

I often think of it this way...Ive been arond baseball a long time....player/fan/coach/umpire...if there was a Coaching Test....I would hazard a guess that I would not pass it.....

Players Play...
Coaches Coach...
Umpires Umpire...

I agree with all of that. And it definitely is one of those 80% that bites me in the butt sometimes.

I think I could pass the fan test, but that may be about it.

quote:

Originally posted by ironhorse:

Well when you said most coaches weren't likely to pass a rules test that seemed like a shot at their intelligence to me. A coach not smart enough to learn/remember the rules of the game he works in sounds stupid to me.

No. Rules knowledge is more related to desire than intelligence. Most coaches don't have the desire to become students of the rule book. I believe most coaches to be very intelligent. They could learn the rules if they wanted to.

Now, we could debate the appropriateness of that lack of desire. I would assume that someone who takes on the responsibility to teach students a game would want to learn the rules of the game. But obviously, I would be wrong.

I think my problem with you is your overall condescending attitude towards coaches, as exhibited by your use of the word "most."

Some coaches suck, as do some umpires. I don't feel like I've had a sampling of enough umpires to suggest most suck. You, however, have obviously spent time with all the coaches in nine western states, so you know what you're talking about.

The sad part is that one power-trippy, arrogant umpire is what most of us ignorant and/or lazy coaches end up basing our generalizations on. Most of you are good, hard working people who enjoy baseball and the kids that play it. A small percentage of you are insecure and unintelligent jerks. Get in where you fit in.

Doh.

Doh.

quote:

Originally posted by ironhorse:
I think my problem with you is your overall condescending attitude towards coaches, as exhibited by your use of the word "most."

Some coaches suck, as do some umpires. I don't feel like I've had a sampling of enough umpires to suggest most suck. You, however, have obviously spent time with all the coaches in nine western states, so you know what you're talking about.

The sad part is that one power-trippy, arrogant umpire is what most of us ignorant and/or lazy coaches end up basing our generalizations on. Most of you are good, hard working people who enjoy baseball and the kids that play it. A small percentage of you are insecure and unintelligent jerks. Get in where you fit in.

I'm sorry. I had no idea that my saying that I believed most coaches were intelligent could be interpreted as condesceding.

I guess I should have said "in my experience, most coaches are intelligent."

I never said any amount of coaches were lazy. I don't know where you got that. I don't believe that to be true. Again, "in my experience" most coaches are hard working and dedicated. Not having the desire to become more familiar with the rules probably has many different origins. It may be as simple as PIAA says, "Coaches coach."

I can accept any explanation, even though I sincerely believe that it would be in a coach's best interest to be more familiar with the rules.

I don't generalize beyond my experience. Unlike some posters who have come here suggesting that "all umpires...." I have never grouped "all" coaches together in any manner.

I will try to remember to not even say "many, most, some, few" or any other adjective without adding, "in my experiece" to make it clearer that I am only speaking of those with whom I have had experience.

Overall, I have an excellent relationship with the coaches and managers with whom I work. We may disagree from time to time, but we treat each other respect.

Coaching and umpiring are entirely different things, different experience levels and skill sets. Most HS coaches know what they are doing in their area but have little to no knowledge what we do or why. I will add more in a bit.
I'm back. Our assoc ask coaches for feedback but the umpire never sees it. The only ones that see it is the commettee that ranks the umpires for post season. We also get rankings on each other all year long. Although we know coaches don't really know what we do, they can give us some indication if we have a problem umpire. If you are hearing the same thing from several coaches then it bears looking into. One place we look is his partner. Is he getting graded poorly by his pears, if not why.
As far as the coaches not having a clue, many do not know the finer points of what we do. It doesn't mean they don't know baseball, they just don't spend the time learning the lesser called rules.
What we get frustrated with is when you have an interference or obstruction or an odd base award, we get told we need to learn the rules. Do we screw up rules, sure, but many times we are right. Now if we get asked to explain something, no problem at all, but we get upset when we are told we don't and we do.

quote:

Originally posted by piaa_ump:
If MST were here he would give you the 80/20 rule...80 percent of the game is played with 20 percent of the rules...Most, but not all, participants are versed in the 20 percent of the rules...its the other 80 percent that makes up the "devil in the details"..

When I retire, I'm going to take the rulebook and write down as each rule is used. It would be interesting to see what percentage of the book is actually used in a typical game.

Many, including PIAA, keep a log of their games, including unusual plays or difficulties. It could shed some light on my 80/20 claim.
Think about your last season and how many times do you call obstruction/interference. How many balks, three base awards, balls going foul after hitting the pitching rubber, MC or BOOs. Then think how many times you had games where you called whole games where you had all safe/ous, ball/strikes or an IFF or two. When was the last time you had a three base award, an illegal player, an illegal glove or had an intentionally dropped ball.
All these things can happen at any given time and we need to know what to do but coaches never consider it happening and mostly don't know what is correct.

Well, I guess in an indirect way this has answered my question. Some umpires will take it personally and some will not. Now it is up to me to decide if I am willing to take that chance.

What is a BOO?

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
What is a BOO?

Batting out of order.

Ahhhhh that is a scary thought.........



Yes that was a horrible joke but thanks dash

quote:

Originally posted by d8:
Well, I guess in an indirect way this has answered my question. Some umpires will take it personally and some will not. Now it is up to me to decide if I am willing to take that chance.

I didn't know that was the question. In the OP the only question regarded whether or not others used evaluations. ("Any of you guys used this or something similar?")

As regards how umpires will take the input, most I know would be indifferent about it, preferring instead to listen to their evaluators and review the videos of their games.

Thanks for quoting my quote back to me.......that is not the intention of the thread and most answered with that in mind (including you). I was looking for input from those that had used this or something similar.

If you want to be literal, that question would require a one word answer. You have typed a heck of a lot more than that and still have not answered the question you are quoting. I take it that your answer is "no" since you refer to others that have used something similar.

quote:

Originally posted by d8:
If you want to be literal...

Guilty as charged.

quote:

You have typed a heck of a lot more than that and still have not answered the question you are quoting.

Really? I thought my first sentence answered the question of "Any of you guys used this or something similar?":

"We do not request or accept coaches' evaluations"

But then again, I'm pretty literal.

Coaches can give a perpective to what we do so them evaling umpires is fine as long as it is used properly. They should absolutely not go to the individual umpires, there is nothing gained or served with this method. It can be used to assist bring up problem issues. Sometimes your partner is circumspect about dinging you but the coach isn't. Sometimes what a coach brings up, whle he thinks we screwed up, really was something else completely so the information needs to used by guys that know the personalities and knowledge base of the involved individuals.

The only thing we do is nominate for post season... I don't know if those things get tallied or trashed.

Last year I did a 3-man game with my assigner and the association president, they did an evaluation. This year, before the regular high school season, I will do a game with multiple assigners and evaluators. Just to get ready and for a good evaluation before the real fire starts!