Not that an umpire would ever like to get his calls questioned, but if a coach were to question an umpires call, what would be the best way to argue a call without going to far and still getting his/her point across?
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I don't know what you mean by "get your point across," but IMO, the HEAD coach is entitled to an explanation if he wants one. If the HC wants to come out and DISCUSS the call, I will hear everything he has to say, answer his questions and explain the ruling. However, yelling, berating, running from his position to get my face will all cause the HC to forfeit his right to an explanation.
quote:Originally posted by right arm of zeus:
Not that an umpire would ever like to get his calls questioned, but if a coach were to question an umpires call, what would be the best way to argue a call without going to far and still getting his/her point across?
Under certain circumstances, the Head Coach has a right by rule to question an umpires call....
Under 9.02
If there is reasonable doubt that any umpire's decision may be in conflict with the rules, the manager may appeal the decision and ask that a correct ruling be made.
Obviously judgment call, safe/out...Fair and Foul do not apply....yet as Dash stated....
If the Head Coach waits until action has been completed and asks for time, I will have no problem letting them know what I have...
But the behaviors that Dash pointed out will not be met with any postive result..
note...It is the Head Coach or Manager who can communicate with Umpires....not assistants...
As i said in earlier posts it was easier to communicate when I started coaching many years ago. You asked a question or disputed a call and they listened. Then it seems that as the years went by many enterd the ranks with a chip on their soldier where the coach was to sit there and keep his mouth shut and if he had the chance to run a guy he would. Just an observation based on experience.
I will restate the question. If a call were to be questioned, whether it be a judgement call ( we all know it happens and everyone has an opinion), or whether it be by conflict with the rules, what would be the best way a coach could approach and then communicate with the umpire who is in question.
quote:.
1. There is no good way to question a judgement call. In reality what your doing is arguing. So I'll ask, give your scenario/s, as to what you would be "questioning" concerning a judgement call.
A couple examples I'd certainly entertain:
A. Mr. Umpire sir, I believe the ball was bobbled, would you check with your partner?
B. Mr. Umpire sir, it looked as if F3 was clearly off the bag, could you check with your partner?
But I would also expect, that if the answer was "no, I had it all the way", then we'd be moving right along.
A rules interp: Mr. Umpire sir, I believe your ruling on that play is incorrect, would you please check with your partner? If the answer comes back the same. Then, "I would like to protest that decision".
There is no guide book on how to do this, but I'll give it a shot as well......
The Head Coach would wait until all playing action has ceased...
The Head Coach would request time...."Time Please"....
The Head Coach would approach the umpire who made the initial call in question in a calm and professional manner...
The Head Coach would ask his question regarding the call and get an explanation from the umpire. If there is a question as to ruling that may be in conflict with the rules, the coach may then ask the umpire to appeal the ruling to his partner for a correct ruling to be made...
The Head Coach should be clear on what can be protested and what can not. He should also be clear on whether or not calls in his league can be protested.
The protest when valid and upheld is the coaches remedy for an ruling in conflict with the rules...
If the concern is over a judgment call, and the coach feels that the Umpires partner may have information that may cause a different ruling he may ask that umpire to check with his partner for assitance. However, The calling umpire is under no obligation to do so...
If the Umpire who called the play agrees, he may go to his partner for his opinion. After receiving the information, the calling umpire may or may not change his call based on his determination...
Keeping the conversation civil is a plus keeping it professional is a must....we all understand that baseball is a passionate game and that some conflict is to be expected.....
The keys to getting in trouble while voicing concerns to umpires are a combination of violating what we umpires call the 3 P's.....
Personal- Making the remarks personal to the umpire...That call stinks....is an opinion....you stink is a personal insult...
Profane- No explanation required....profanity is prohibited.
Persistant- Once the ruling and explanation has been made, continued arguing beyond what is considered reasonable by the umpire....
Beyond these lines exist the possiblity of ejection...I wish I could say that this is the standard and you can follow this....yet, I cant... just as we as umpires can not exactly follow this course...
Each coach is different and so is each umpire... the situation in question could afford this type of exchange or not....In short as a coach you need to assess the situation and act accordingly....(which is exactly what I do as an umpire as well...)
Now on to some advice.....
Pick your battles.....and save your bullets..
multiple questionings of calls will get you 0% cooperation....arguing minutae when up big is not met with cooperation..
Understand that sometimes blown calls are part of the game....let me give you an example...
screaming ball ripped towards third... big catcher stands up and I was blocked... I leaned out to see ball bounce foul....I signal foul....except everyone including the hot dog vendor saw it bounce fair first....I should have cleared the catcher better...when the coach came out to complain there was nothing I could do about that but take my lumps....and nothing a coach can say can change it to fair......
Sorry for the long post, hope this helps answer your question...
The Head Coach would wait until all playing action has ceased...
The Head Coach would request time...."Time Please"....
The Head Coach would approach the umpire who made the initial call in question in a calm and professional manner...
The Head Coach would ask his question regarding the call and get an explanation from the umpire. If there is a question as to ruling that may be in conflict with the rules, the coach may then ask the umpire to appeal the ruling to his partner for a correct ruling to be made...
The Head Coach should be clear on what can be protested and what can not. He should also be clear on whether or not calls in his league can be protested.
The protest when valid and upheld is the coaches remedy for an ruling in conflict with the rules...
If the concern is over a judgment call, and the coach feels that the Umpires partner may have information that may cause a different ruling he may ask that umpire to check with his partner for assitance. However, The calling umpire is under no obligation to do so...
If the Umpire who called the play agrees, he may go to his partner for his opinion. After receiving the information, the calling umpire may or may not change his call based on his determination...
Keeping the conversation civil is a plus keeping it professional is a must....we all understand that baseball is a passionate game and that some conflict is to be expected.....
The keys to getting in trouble while voicing concerns to umpires are a combination of violating what we umpires call the 3 P's.....
Personal- Making the remarks personal to the umpire...That call stinks....is an opinion....you stink is a personal insult...
Profane- No explanation required....profanity is prohibited.
Persistant- Once the ruling and explanation has been made, continued arguing beyond what is considered reasonable by the umpire....
Beyond these lines exist the possiblity of ejection...I wish I could say that this is the standard and you can follow this....yet, I cant... just as we as umpires can not exactly follow this course...
Each coach is different and so is each umpire... the situation in question could afford this type of exchange or not....In short as a coach you need to assess the situation and act accordingly....(which is exactly what I do as an umpire as well...)
Now on to some advice.....
Pick your battles.....and save your bullets..
multiple questionings of calls will get you 0% cooperation....arguing minutae when up big is not met with cooperation..
Understand that sometimes blown calls are part of the game....let me give you an example...
screaming ball ripped towards third... big catcher stands up and I was blocked... I leaned out to see ball bounce foul....I signal foul....except everyone including the hot dog vendor saw it bounce fair first....I should have cleared the catcher better...when the coach came out to complain there was nothing I could do about that but take my lumps....and nothing a coach can say can change it to fair......
Sorry for the long post, hope this helps answer your question...
quote:Originally posted by right arm of zeus:
I will restate the question. If a call were to be questioned, whether it be a judgement call ( we all know it happens and everyone has an opinion), or whether it be by conflict with the rules, what would be the best way a coach could approach and then communicate with the umpire who is in question.
Call time, easily jog out there (walking takes too long and sprinting might get you tossed), stand beside ump you want to talk to, position yourself to where both of you are facing away from everyone (this will get easier to do once umps get to know you) and talk to them.
Judgement calls I will usually ask him "what did you see" and they tell me. I tell them what I saw (100 yards away) and usually drop it. If it's a rules question I might not turn away from the crowd / players to ask him.
Overall just act like you got some sense and 99.9% of the umps will work with you.
You have gotten some pretty good advice so far, here's my take.
As stated, call time and go to the calling umpire. DO NOT go to who you perceive as the senior umpire. Ask him what he saw. Listen to his explanation, don't interrupt, then give your version of what you saw. If it is a judgment call that's usually all that you will get. It may be possible that he will check with his partner but if not leave it alone. Discussing his intelligence or his sanity will end in bad results. If it is a rules question then ifd you don't agree then protest. At that point, he will check with his partner and either fix the problem or play under protest. At no point does yelling and screaming aid your argument.
As stated, call time and go to the calling umpire. DO NOT go to who you perceive as the senior umpire. Ask him what he saw. Listen to his explanation, don't interrupt, then give your version of what you saw. If it is a judgment call that's usually all that you will get. It may be possible that he will check with his partner but if not leave it alone. Discussing his intelligence or his sanity will end in bad results. If it is a rules question then ifd you don't agree then protest. At that point, he will check with his partner and either fix the problem or play under protest. At no point does yelling and screaming aid your argument.
Another thing I thought of is you got to build a relationship with umps. Once they know you and you know them you can actually do a lot more things by going out there to help your team and never even talk about the play.
What I mean is there the momentum is with the other team and there is a bang bang play that goes against my team. I may very well know the guy was right but I'm going out there to talk to him. When I get out there I tell him something like "you got it right but I'm just trying to slow the momentum down". It looks like I am discussing the play but I'm not. It gives my guys a chance to calm down and regroup.
If it's a guy I don't know then I ask him what he saw and do what I said earlier. But if you got a good relationship going on with them it can turn into another time out.
Hope I haven't offended any umps by saying this but it's worked quite often in the past.
What I mean is there the momentum is with the other team and there is a bang bang play that goes against my team. I may very well know the guy was right but I'm going out there to talk to him. When I get out there I tell him something like "you got it right but I'm just trying to slow the momentum down". It looks like I am discussing the play but I'm not. It gives my guys a chance to calm down and regroup.
If it's a guy I don't know then I ask him what he saw and do what I said earlier. But if you got a good relationship going on with them it can turn into another time out.
Hope I haven't offended any umps by saying this but it's worked quite often in the past.
I have never had any problem with a coach coming out and asking " respectfully " what I have or what I saw. Its the ones that think they are Earl Weaver and show their tails that things usually end badly for him. I was told my first year of umpiring that dealing with coaches is all about respect. If they show it I will too and I always try to answer his first question respectfully.