Umpires

Not a single person has said this. We have asked you to reexamine what you thought you knew, and consider other variables. You have refused. You have also refused to answer where you were that you saw these pitches, and I know why--because you have no clue where the pitches actually were. You were either in the dugout or in a coaches box, and you are now caught in your hyperbolic statements.

Well it depends on where those lines are.  Plenty of times I have showed up and the line was right on top of the plate.  Given the ball is 3 inches wide +/- that is a completely appropriate width of the strike zone if the chalk line is not more than that width.

 

The width of the strike zone is nearly 2 feet.  17" of plate and 3" of baseball on either side.  So even if the chalk line is a couple of inches off the plate the inside of the chalk line is still in the zone.

 

Most people have no idea that the proper placement of the inside of the batters box is 6 inches from the plate.  I have been to very few HS or youth parks where they got it right with some guy walking around randomly with a chalk machine.  When the inside of the batters box is properly placed it is impossible for anyone to think that is an acceptable strike zone.

 

So next time you are at the yard if you can get close enough to the plate with a baseball in your hand lay it down so the edge of the ball is over the edge of the plate.  If you are getting any of the ball in or over chalk then a portion of that days batters box (based on the chalk lines) is in the strike zone.

 

 

       
       
This is my first post in this thread.  I observed this pitch from behind the backstop directly in line with the batters box line.  But you will notice I don't lay blame on the umpire I talk about my son fouling off the cookie he got earlier in the at bat.  However this is not the down the line comment I referenced...  next post.

       
       
This is John's post where he clearly states that the batter should have to hit that pitch in his words "on the chalk line".  In fact they should easily be able to hit that pitch with the sweet spot.  Next post.

       
       
This is where you jumped in to agree these pitches are.very hittable especially with aluminum bats.

       
       
This is where you voiced your concern about "3 hour walkfests"

       
       
This is where I tried to drop this acknowledging that we will never agree on this and frankly we are not likely to become best of friends.  Now I hope I have answered all of your questions.  Feel free to personally insult me one more time for the road and then perhaps we can drop this?

If your an HONEST UMPIRE, doing the best job you can for the kids,call strikes that cross the plate and are in the book zone up and down. Anything else is UNACCEPTABLE! If you call a pitch off the plate a strike knowingly, that's dishonest and you should turn in your equipment and give it up!! Your cheating the kids and doing a tremendous disservice to the kids to the game.

Wow go off to umpire a game and see what unfolds.  Perhaps the 24 hour rule should come into affect so that no one says/writes something they shouldn't. Something about stick and stones... 2020dad, the dislike of umpires from you is palpable and I agree it's not worth arguing about it. I get your point.

 

As for the zone - it does start at the front of the plate - so while a pitch can end up more in the other box by the time the catcher gets it (you know, like a my golf drive - it slices away)...  If *every* pitch that doesn't even come close to the zone is called a strike - sure that's a different story.  If you grab a pitch here and there just to keep things moving, then that's game management. I don't advocate screwing the batter nor do I advocate giving the pitcher an unfair advantage. Do I miss pitches every now and again, yep. I've been fooled by pitchers which throw one down the middle when the catcher stands up for one "high" (and a large enough catcher may block my view).  Taking the black and white of my words to restate your case as if I meant I'd call every pitch off the plate a strike is a reach. My point was more - it happens and if you run into an umpire that's calling that consistently, then the batters better know how to handle that. I really don't think it's worth putting down all umpires because you disagreed with one - please think about the words as not just "black and white" (or whatever colors you use on your display).

 

As for honesty - the umpires are the only two that don't really have a stake in the game. In a 20-0 blowout do you expect things to still be as called as tightly as they were when it was 0-0?  What good comes when it is and the result is a 50-0 game because the zone is so tight that the 8th best pitcher on the team cannot find it? 2020dad may say we want to go off for a steak dinner or perhaps a beer - perhaps there are some that are out there just for the money, but not all are. If you treat everyone like they are out there just for the money and could give two rats butts about the game or the kids, then you've missed quite a few good umpires. There are many more of those out there.

 

 

 

       
       
I am going to give you your first like on this post.  And as I have said many times I have no issue with blown calls.  We are all human.  And as I stated earlier in the thread I completely understand opening the zone in blowouts.  And honestly I don't dislike umpires.  I haven't been ejected in god knows how long and I doubt I ever will be again unless I run into a guy with a terrible hangover or something!  And my wanting to get to dinner or.out for a beer may have been a bit testy.  Not a big fan of grabbing one here and there but I get your point.  And of course all of this is dependent on age.  For an 11 year old game I imagine you have to give a lot or it will never end.  Since I think you handled your reply with class whether you agree with me or.not I would just say this.  As a coach and especially as a father of a 6'2" 7th grader - please give the ball that is a little high!  Or maybe outside but at least belt high where maybe it can be hit.  But those shin high strikes are really frustrating.   And it seems a lot of guys call the low strike in the same spot regardless of.batters height.  Help me out on that one!

I'm not the one insulting anyone. I'm also not the one so wrapped up in this that I wasted time dividing posts. Have fun in the box.

Here. I'll turn in my equipment to you. Your turn to give it a shot.

Not everyone understands the theories behind opening the zone... For some it's the only time they see their kid in a game so why screw that kid... It doesn't take a rocket scientist behind the plate to know when you've got a kid looking for a 6 pack (that's 4 balls and 2 strikes) or one leaning in to get hit on his oversized elbow guard... It's also very obvious when the (new) pitcher either cannot find the zone or has no idea where the ball is going once it leaves his hand. Again it's all about game management and the better umpires will handle things "appropriately".

 

As long as your 6'2" 7th grader isn't only looking for the pitch "on the T" or within some small box/zone, then we'll be good. For every batter's dad not wanting the low strike you have a pitchers dad pleading for it so their son's ERA doesn't get tarnished. But now that you note it's 7th grade ball - just remember the umpire hierarchy - to say the least umpires that have built up their resume's aren't jumping at the chance for a 7th grade baseball game, so you're going to get newer guys... In our area middle school games start at 330P - that means being there by 3PM and possibly leaving your "day job" by 2PM. So many times those games get "covered by" retiree's.  The good news is - unless he's out watching his son, I doubt very much some college coach is scouting/recruiting at one of these games.  Like others have noted - it's all in how you deal with adversity and the challenges that the game of baseball presents that make you a better overall ballplayer and "more marketable" to some college coach.

 

Matt13-

I think you're most likely a good umpire. In the Ask the Ump forum you've shown a lot of knowledge, and I've found that the guys who study their craft like that usually turn out to be the good ones. (Usually!)

 

I did have trouble understanding your post using the chalk line as an example, so I'll ask directly: What do you consider the GENERAL outside edge of the zone? Black? 1 ball? 2 balls?

 

Just to get an idea for my own sake...

       
       
Just to clarify we don't have middle school ball here so these are travel teams.  We play night games.  We have a few teams in our league that maybe don't really fit the definition.  But the tournaments we play are pretty much all top notch teams.  These.kids should be able to throw strikes.  And a ball 4 inches off the plate belt high is an entirely different story than a pitch 4 inches off the plate at the knees or heaven forbid the shins.  And its not really about the college scouts   obviously there are none at this age.  Its about learning their craft and having fun.  Part of that having fun is having a chance to hit.  At the level my son plays very very few kids are looking for a walk.  They are there to be aggressive hitters.  I appreciate that your tone is not confrontational so I would like to think mine isn't either - certainly not meant to be.  But I still can't get onboard with the concept of managing the game.  A strike is a strike and a ball is a ball.  Again when the game gets out of hand one way or the other then I think we all agree open it up and put the losing team out of their misery.  But even if we choose to agree to open up the strike zone in close games why is it always the shin high strike that gets called?  Why not.the.chest high strike a hitter can actually get to?  Any 'hot zone' chart you look at will tell you pitches down and away and down in general are the hardest pitches to hit productively.  And for the record my son doesn't walk much and that is by design he is there to hit.  But of course like any good hitter he should be looking for the cookie.  Why on earth would any coach teach a kid to swing at a low pitch on a fresh count even if it is a strike.  Or a first pitch curve ball.  And as a coach (I do not coach my son I coach hs) it is frustrating when the kid does the right thing and then falls behind in the count on a shin high strike call.  So it just seems sometimes that the coach trying to teach how to approach an at bat and the umps desire to manage the game are at odds.  Probably why there will always be a little banter between coaches and umps.  I guess coaches and umps will probably have to agree to disagree for the rest of time!

Depends on the level..and even within the same general level, it may depend on the skill of the teams involved. And to try to quantify it is a little tricky, because there is not really "I'm going x inches off the plate on the corner." It's more of "I'll go about this much and if they give me something to think about, it's probably a strike."

 

Case in point--in one D3 conference I cover, there is a perennial regional finalist, and the worst team wins maybe two games a year. I opened their conference season between the two. Not only was it a huge mismatch, the lesser team had no...I mean NO...pitching. Normally, a zone for that level would involve giving maybe an inch off the inside corner (if the catcher doesn't butcher it) and half a ball or so off the outside (again, if the catcher doesn't butcher it.) In this game, if it "looked hittable," I got the strike. That didn't necessarily mean that the zone was fluid, it just meant that I made an adjustment that wasn't based on any physical dimension of the batter or the field, and one that I felt was reasonable. If I had to quantify it, I was probably going a ball off the plate (maybe a bit more) on the outside, and maybe a couple inches on the inside. That game ended 15-1, with one of my evaluators as a partner. He said, "You did what you had to do." Both coaches were comfortable with what it was.

 

At the HS level, it becomes a bit more of an art (as if the example above wasn't.) You rely less on the catcher and more on the balance between offense and defense. I'll start off with giving a little bit more than what I said above for D3, and it's not going to depend on the catcher getting those strikes for the pitcher--I'm getting those pitches anyway.

 

A good umpire can adjust slightly, mainly in and out, as the first innings unfold if it becomes apparent that something's not working, generally if there's a lot of walks. He can also bring it in slightly if pitchers start finding their groove. You cannot go lower if you are already calling it properly--the bottom of the zone is lower than a lot of people realize, and you need to be getting that strike anyway.

 

In summary, the rulebook zone is a starting point. We can go in and out somewhat based on the quality of players, but how much is going to depend on the game in front of us. The reality of the situation is that no one can split hairs--if two consecutive pitches were a 1/2 inch either way from each other, it may look the same to some, and different to others. And even that would be only one point on the two trajectories. At some point, it basically comes down to "Does it look like a strike?"

Whoo boy...I expect that will get the fur flying....

Call a strike a strike and a ball a ball.  If you have to give a little leeway at the younger levels with "wild" pitching and out of hand scores, everyone understands that. Most of all be consistent.  Period. 

 

What everyone wants from an umpire is consistency and effort.  I have seen too many hands on the knees, five feet behind the catcher, don't move to make a call, get me out of here umpires.  Just plain lazy.  Some of the best umpires have been the "old" retired guys.   

 

As for the batters box line, it was confusing the kids.  They were saying balls in the opposite box where being called strikes.  I told my kid to understand that a ball between the edge of the plate and the batters box line may be a strike based on how far the line was.  He was playing in a game where the line was at best 3 inches from the plate.  In that case, given the width of the ball the ball can be right between the two, or even down the line, and still be a strike. 

It might. It's not intended to be inflammatory, but we're talking about something that is so spatially-dependent and trying to translate it to words on a screen is difficult. That's why we do cage work and scrimmages at clinics and in the preseason, so that we can develop what is a good zone in the setting in which we would use it, instead of in the classroom. I can teach anyone what the rules are in black-and-white. Baseball is a game of grey...grey, miserable failure. Someone wins and loses on every pitch, whether it's a missed opportunity for the hitter, a misplaced or wrong type of pitch for the pitcher, a missed fielding opportunity, a bounce that goes the wrong way for the offense...and that's why we umpire with the book, not by the book. The book assumes that everything goes right.

       
       
For the record Golf, any references I have made to the chalk have been with the understanding that line is placed properly with the line not even beginning til 6 inches from the plate.  When combined with being down that is an absolutely unhittable pitch staying in proper mechanics.  And couldn't agree with you more, call a ball a ball and a strike a strike.  With the noted youth rec ball and blowout exceptions.

I understand completely.  Called a couple of years worth of youth ball and game management was a must otherwise some of them would have been 2 or 3 inning games.  I was on the cusp of school ball when my regular job made me hang it up but I did get to call a few innings of a preseason HS scrimmage between two very good teams.

 

It was an eye opener.  The difference was amazing.  Velocity and movement and skill level were really a challenge in the first half inning.  Settled in after that but it was a battle those first few batters to stay with it and find a consistent zone.  Got a couple of whistles in my first 25 pitches and I'd have to say I earned them.

 

There was no doubt that I did not have to expand at all to get strikes to keep a good flow.  These two teams really knew how to play and it was up to me to adjust to that level and tighten up appropriately.

2020,

just thinking of this from a logic perspective…if a game is getting out of hand and all agree to open up the strike zone for the purpose of moving the game along and avoiding further run-up in the scoring, doesn't it make sense to call the less hittable (low and outside) pitches strikes so the pitcher can get some outs?

       
       
Sure absolutely.   Nose to toes at that point.  But if you read my post again you probably just missed (being nice here not sarcastic) that I said 'if you choose to open it up in close games'.  And of course a lot of umps just have that huge strike zone right from the beginning.  And even if it's consistent for both teams and all batters it doesn't make that pitch any more hittable.  And that's not fair to the kids.  And as I said earlier as a coach you should self police a little.  If you are on top big make your kids swing.  Don't force the ump to do it.

Lots of batter's dad talk here.  I'm a pitcher's dad and I love the strike zone that is a little expanded.  Go ahead and give that low outside strike all day long!!!  

 

Seriously, I think as long as the zone is consistent throughout the game and consistent for both sides, I'm ok with it.  What really gets me - and a lot of people upset, pitchers and hitters alike - is when the zone is inconsistent.  When that happens, the pitchers don't know where to pitch and the hitters don't know what to swing at.  

 

I have always told my son, as a pitcher, to learn the strike zone.  If the ump is giving the outside corner, pound it.  If he's not giving it, then pitch where he is giving you.  Every ump is going to be a little different.  Learn what he does early and go with that.  Unless, of course, the ump is inconsistent.  Then you don't know what to do.  Pitchers will always try to get the corners - or off the corners - if they can.  When an ump gives that corner a few times, then you go for the K on that corner, hit it and don't get the call, it's very frustrating.  Same with a hitter.  If that outside pitch has been called a ball, then with a 2 strike count, he takes it and the ump calls it a strike, it is aggravating.  Be consistent...

 

One other thing from a spectators perspective.  I used to be the pitching coach for my son's teams pre high school.  I called the pitches.  Many times, usually with 2 strikes, I would signal for the catcher to set up well off the plate.  He would set up there, the pitcher would hit the spot without the catcher moving his glove and everyone would freak out thinking it was a strike because the pitcher hit his spot exactly.  Even our head coach would get upset.  I would have to tell him that I called that pitch off the plate, it was a ball.  You can't always tell where a pitch is, especially inside or outside from the side.  Maybe sometimes the catcher is set up out of the zone.  Just because a pitcher hits the glove, doesn't make it a strike.  Just some perspective.

I didn't miss your point, you just aren't making sense.  Either you open up the strike zone to get more outs by calling less/un-hittable pitches strikes, or you remain "fair" to the kids.  You can't have it both ways.

FYI bball I am also a pitchers dad.  Of course at this age they are all hitters but if he has a future in the game it will be on the mound.  And when he gets bailed out by a questionable strike call am I relieved?  Absolutely.   Does that make it right?  Absolutely not.  Also all my hs coaching has been as a pitching coach.  Every single year without exception.  Couple years in there I was a lower level head coach but still with pitchers duties.  And even as a long time pitching coach all I want is a fair and honest game called.  Right is right.

       
       
Yes actually you can have it both ways.  The pitch 3 or 4 inches outside at the belt is hittable.  The pitch 4 inches outside at the knees or a little below is not.  The pitch a few inches above the bottom of the ribcage is hittable.  There are pitches that by the book are balls but still hittable.  There are also pitches that are balls by the book that are unhittable.  Fair in my mind is at least give the hitters a chance.  But again my preference would be call a strike a strike and a ball a ball.  Now what about these statements doesn't make sense?

Overall that makes sense, and I assume it would be much more understandable in person. But the above quoteis where I take issue. Once the zone is established shouldn't it remain there? Isn't it the pitchers' job to adjust to your zone? Not y'all adjusting based on number of walks or "finding their groove?" That sounds to me almost like trying to keep it close. 

 

And understand I'm talking to quality baseball teams competing, not a run-rule match up.

Ok, let me try one more time.  If the objective of opening up the strike zone is to avoid further run-up in the score (ie, get more outs instead of more hits and walks), then calling hittable pitches strikes will just result in more hits - ie, not achieving the objective.  The best way to achieve the objective is to call less hittable (or unhittable) pitches strikes.

 

If, on the other hand, your objective is that every other kid gets pitches he can't hit but your 6'-2" kid gets hittable pitches, then your strategy is right on.

       
       
why is it so many people on here are so comfortable getting personal?  Be a f---- man and leave my kid out if this.  I am not going to go into your posts and say something about your kid.  Leave the kids out of this.  I will try one more time.  I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH WHATEVER HAPPENS IN BLOWOUTS!!!  I am not sure how I could have made that more clear.  I am talking about when an ump just decides to have a large strike zone for an entire game even if its close.  Now I really tried to be nice here.  I didn't tell you that you made no sense and I didn't make a snide comment about your kid.  If someone wants to disagree with me then so be it.  No big deal.  But when you bring my son into it?  That is classless.

Part of the art of pitching is trying to get the ump to expand the strike zone. It does not work with the good to really good umps. But if you find an ump giving you that low outside corner Slowly move your pitch out further. A good defensive catcher can help with this. 

 

Good hitters who are properly coached will not swing at "hittable" pitches that are balls.  They are garbage pitches called by bad umpires.

Oh please, I didn't bring your kid into this, I repeated what you wrote.  Your position on this whole issue is rather self serving and no one is agreeing with you, so you are getting riled up. 

In order to do what I feel is right when I umpire I call the book strike zone to the best of my ability. I call the plays what they are. The score of the game will have no affect on my calls or my patience. Each team and their players deserve a fair shot at being as successful as they possibly can be. It's about giving an honest effort to get all the calls in the game right.

It depends on whether you are talking about the inside edge of the ball, the middle of the ball or the outside edge of the ball.

 

If any part of the ball touches any part of the plate, by rule that's a strike.  Some would also say "that's one ball off".  If you lay another ball next to it on the ground, that's two balls off, and the outside of that ball is nearly at the chalk line of the opposite batter's box.

 

In my experience, "most" coaches want that to be called a strike(both on offense and defense) and most players expect and accept that it will be a strike.

 

If any part of the ball reaches the opposite batter's box, that's too wide.

 

Thats for a pitch at about the middle of the zone height wise.  At the top and bottom, the zone gets narrower -- it's kind of "egg shaped" with the pointy end of the egg at the top.  Or, as some put it, you can miss a little in one dimension and get a strike, but you can't miss in two.

 

All that assumes, of course, properly lined fields, plates square to the rubber, and perfect vision and judgment by the umpire.  In practice, none of that happens, especially with a ball that moves in three dimensions an travels at 80 mph.

 

After seeing this thread continue I got a chance to ask my neighbor how he calls a game. He has been a high school umpire for over 40 years.  He said he calls it by the book, no matter the score or quality of play. He said a long time ago, when he first started, he officiated a blowout 20-0 game and changed how he should have called the game just to get it over. The winning coach called him out on it and he has never done it since. He leaves it up to the two coaches whether or not they want to end the game early on their own.  But he won't do it by changing how he calls the game.  He added that there is always that one kid that never gets into the game unless there is a blow out. His parents go to every game just to maybe see him play for a brief moment. And that he deserves and should get the same chance as everyone else.

I agreeeee COMPLETELY!! Your story and observation illustrates your point perfectly.They also reflect my feelings perfectly. An umpires duty is to call the game honestly not make up his own rules and in this case his own strike zone regardless of who's playing or what the score is.

The strike zone isn't the rule book zone. It's what is the expected zone at the level of play. 

That of course is not true. The Strike Zone is exactly the same in all rulebooks and at any level. If your a good and honest umpire,you call the book zone all the time or your cheating the kids and the game.

If you say so...do you call a pitch on the black a strike?